Post: #1

I'm trying to figure out what type of career to pursue. My goal is to be location independent and earn a good salary.

I applied to several law schools and have been offered scholarships for almost all my tuition. Though I have the grades to be admitted to a top 10 law school in the US, I refuse to take on any significant amount of debt.
I have absolutely no interest in slaving away in some corporate law firm to pay back 200k in debt, and that is if im lucky enough to land a job in today's economy. What a nightmare. I also don't want to be trapped in the dystopian hell that has become the anglosphere.


Instead i want something different,
my goal is simple: Location Independent Lawyer. I just want to be able to charge 30-80$ for legal work I can do online.


Im wondering if anyone has tried or knows of anyone who has done virtual lawyering?

Of course, this is completely new and largely untested strategy for location independent income. But it makes perfect sense because lawyers deal 100% in intangible goods. Like a programmer or web developer, there is no physical reason, provided that the person is trained in the said state and knows the law, cant do the work online. All the books and cases are available online now a days.



The obstacles are:

(1) BAR requirements to maintain residency and office in the said state.
(I know there was a recent decision in NY which found it unconstitutional for NY to force residency requirements on NY Lawyers. any other states like this?)

(2) BAR requirements to ensure confidentiality. will have to invest in good encryption technology no doubt. blackberry server would probably suffice.

(3) Existing Law firms not being okay with the location independence, and basically forcing you to stay if you want to keep be a lawyer at the firm which you need to gain some experience (I think starting my own firm is the way to go).

(4) Earning clients trust while abroad, I think this can be remedied by charging drastically less $$.

(5) Taxes, who gets to collect tax? the state where I am practicing law or The state or the place where I happen to be living.?

(6) Keeping student loans to a minimum to avoid debt slave situation.



My plan right now is to basically do the opposite of what everyone else is doing right now in law school to avoid being outsourced (focusing on pleading, going to court, etc...). I will focus on precisely everything that can be outsourced, so that I can ultimately outsource myself.

good or stupid idea? If anyone knows or has any experience in virtual lawyering, it would be gold.

Post: #2

I'm not a lawyer so take all this with a healthy dose of skepticism.

I know a guy who did something similar. He had worked for a law firm for years though. When he left he simply took some of his old clients with him, people he'd worked for for years and who trust him. Most of the things he does can be handled via email, telephone or videoconference. Occasionally he will travel for face to face meetings but rarely.

I think the biggest challenge would be finding new clients. That's probably the hardest part of a lawyer's work. At many law firms there are senior guys who spend almost all their time nurturing client relationships and prospecting for new ones.

1. Don't know about residency requirements.

2. Confidentiality shouldn't be a big problem. Lawyers use email all the time. You might need somewhere secure to store physical documents, original signatures and the like.

3. You probably have to work for a more established law firm for a while to learn the ropes.

4. This is hard. You would probably need to have a client base before you start traveling. They can then refer you to others, give you references etc.

5. Tax surely depends on where you're registered / resident? Unless there are special tax requirements for lawyers?

6. Don't know about student loans.

Post: #3

thanks for your input.

I'm sure the guy you know is charging usual lawyer rates though for his existing clients (200$+ per hour). Definitely don't want to go this route because of the time investment required (3 years law school + years to build client base - no thanks). Plus I dont think I would fit into firm culture, seems like a total nightmare, even for a few years.

Your right, I need one of those office front places so that documents can be sent to a physical address and scanned and sent to me. After checking online, this is available (with downtown address near the court) for about 150$ per month. not bad.

I really dont want to go the existing client route. I want to offer services to the masses at drastically reduced prices versus what the local competition charges. Sure, people dont like a new lawyer, but they may go for it if its just for drafting and its drastically less expensive.

Maybe focusing on a niche (ex. customizing wills) may work. Or maybe advising clients on how to represent themselves in court.


I will tell you one thing I dont want. Having the BAR pursuing me for trying out a new business model.

Post: #4

(05-12-2012 10:51 AM)alphascout Wrote:  I'm trying to figure out what type of career to pursue. My goal is to be location independent and earn a good salary.

I applied to several law schools and have been offered scholarships for almost all my tuition. Though I have the grades to be admitted to a top 10 law school in the US, I refuse to take on any significant amount of debt.
I have absolutely no interest in slaving away in some corporate law firm to pay back 200k in debt, and that is if im lucky enough to land a job in today's economy. What a nightmare. I also don't want to be trapped in the dystopian hell that has become the anglosphere.


Instead i want something different,
my goal is simple: Location Independent Lawyer. I just want to be able to charge 30-80$ for legal work I can do online.


Im wondering if anyone has tried or knows of anyone who has done virtual lawyering?

Of course, this is completely new and largely untested strategy for location independent income. But it makes perfect sense because lawyers deal 100% in intangible goods. Like a programmer or web developer, there is no physical reason, provided that the person is trained in the said state and knows the law, cant do the work online. All the books and cases are available online now a days.



The obstacles are:

(1) BAR requirements to maintain residency and office in the said state.
(I know there was a recent decision in NY which found it unconstitutional for NY to force residency requirements on NY Lawyers. any other states like this?)

(2) BAR requirements to ensure confidentiality. will have to invest in good encryption technology no doubt. blackberry server would probably suffice.

(3) Existing Law firms not being okay with the location independence, and basically forcing you to stay if you want to keep be a lawyer at the firm which you need to gain some experience (I think starting my own firm is the way to go).

(4) Earning clients trust while abroad, I think this can be remedied by charging drastically less $$.

(5) Taxes, who gets to collect tax? the state where I am practicing law or The state or the place where I happen to be living.?

(6) Keeping student loans to a minimum to avoid debt slave situation.



My plan right now is to basically do the opposite of what everyone else is doing right now in law school to avoid being outsourced (focusing on pleading, going to court, etc...). I will focus on precisely everything that can be outsourced, so that I can ultimately outsource myself.

good or stupid idea? If anyone knows or has any experience in virtual lawyering, it would be gold.

1. No bar has residency requirements that I am aware of, certainly not NY.

2. Non-issue

3. As you are probably aware, the major US firms have offices all over the world so there is generally no prohibition on being a US lawyer and working in a foreign country (provided you are only advising on US law). If you want to have a serious shot at working at a foreign office in the current market, you will need to be fluent in the local language and devote your 3 years of law school to networking in the relevant market.

4. Getting a job with a local firm is more realistic. It is highly unlikely you will be able to work remotely and obtain and service clients exclusively through the internet. There is no technological reason for this - it is just not how people hire lawyers in 2012. Many lawyers have a significant online presence but this is just a supplement to a bricks and mortar business and is about communicating with clients and building reputation rather than generating significant numbers of clients.

You might be able to develop such an online practice if you had a blog and became an expert in some area but developing the necessary reputation would take years. Alternatively, you could try to provide US legal services to US expats in the country you are living.

5. Depends on the country. Assuming you are a US citizen, you will have to file a US tax return but will get a deduction for foreign taxes paid. If you are employed in the foreign country, you will owe taxes there. If you were providing the services online, I'm not sure how they would be taxed locally but they would definitely be subject to US tax if you are a US citizen.

6. Definitely do not take on debt unless you are going to a top 10 law school. The market is flooded and is unlikely to be much better when you graduate. The legal profession is where all the liberal arts grads go who don't have hard quant skills so it is always going to be crowded and highly competitive.

Conclusions: (i) don't take on debt, (ii) get a job with a firm at first. You will need the experience, it will build your resume and it will pay more than trying to go it alone, (iii) if you want to be location independent, focus on networking and learning languages rather than developing a virtual practice. Most larger foreign cities will have firms and businesses employing US lawyers. Worst case scenario you can sometimes get jobs editing English language documents for the local law firms. If you are young and don't get into a good law school, you might want to consider teaching English abroad for a few years, make some money and spend the time learning the local language.

Post: #5

Lemmo: thanks for the excellent input.

I kind of want to try something new.

figure its virtually impossible to go the be in a competitive in law school and network, go to a firm and work 60-70h a week, then hope to get transferred to the foreign office route. That;s just way too much work and risk of time. Plus, I heard these places are infested with the kids of really rich people with tons of connections. Taking these guys head on and expecting to beat them at their own game (i.e. international big law firm game and getting good grades in law school game) sounds like madness to me. Odds are probably very very low. plus having to learn foreign languages too, on top of that if i transfer to a foreign firm, I wont exactly be location independnet. I will just be dependent on a different location.

Odds to run a new type of law firm are probably also quite low, but at least the time commitment is much lower before I get to see if I will obtain the results I want.
Keep in mind Im not even going to try to obtain the revenue the local lawyer obtains.


I think I will run some market tests to see if people are willing to hire a lawyer working remotely but charging drastically less for certain tasks. Basically, my whole idea hinges on this being hte case (their being a market), but maybe you are right and its not the case. Only one way to find out.
If there is no market, then I wont do it obviously.

Post: #6

(05-12-2012 11:48 AM)alphascout Wrote:  thanks for your input.

I'm sure the guy you know is charging usual lawyer rates though for his existing clients (200$+ per hour). Definitely don't want to go this route because of the time investment required (3 years law school + years to build client base - no thanks). Plus I dont think I would fit into firm culture, seems like a total nightmare, even for a few years.

Your right, I need one of those office front places so that documents can be sent to a physical address and scanned and sent to me. After checking online, this is available (with downtown address near the court) for about 150$ per month. not bad.

I really dont want to go the existing client route. I want to offer services to the masses at drastically reduced prices versus what the local competition charges. Sure, people dont like a new lawyer, but they may go for it if its just for drafting and its drastically less expensive.

Maybe focusing on a niche (ex. customizing wills) may work. Or maybe advising clients on how to represent themselves in court.


I will tell you one thing I dont want. Having the BAR pursuing me for trying out a new business model.

This doesn't seem like a new model so I'm not seeing any regulatory problems, certainly nothing from a bar association. If anyone would be a problem, it would be the regulator of the country where you are based but, as I said above, US lawyers are practicing in many countries and it isn't a problem as long as they are clear not to advise on foreign law.

I think you are hugely overestimating the amount of work you can get by charging a low rate. There are going to be out of work lawyers in any US town willing to do the work for the same price or less. Why hire someone I only met over the internet, based abroad who has no experience? Also, legal services tend to be something people are willing to pay a bit more for. And I have to think that the type of client who just hires someone over the internet in order to get the lowest price is also going to be the type who is more likely to not pay - especially if they have never met you and know you are sitting thousands of miles away.

Also keep in mind that even lawyers practicing locally routinely take years to develop a profitable practice. If you have no existing clients or contacts and just move overseas and start looking for work, it could be months before you get your first client and much longer before you have a workflow that provides enough cash to cover your expenses.

Post: #7

thanks or the input, especially about clients not paying. will have to do some sort of retainer system, or sell their debts to a collection agency if that happens.

I know there are tons of out of work lawyers currently.
There must be some states with less flooded markets though? obviously not NY.

what about other countries? Australia? UK? Canada? I imagine I could get into law school in any of these countries with my grades (3.74 gpa and 169 LSAT)

Maybe the key is the blog thing, If I can set up a nice blog and develop strongly in a legal niche during law school, i can get web traffic which may translate into clients afterwards.

Post: #8

(05-12-2012 12:09 PM)alphascout Wrote:  Lemmo: thanks for the excellent input.

I kind of want to try something new.

figure its virtually impossible to go the be in a competitive in law school and network, go to a firm and work 60-70h a week, then hope to get transferred to the foreign office route. That;s just way too much work and risk of time. Plus, I heard these places are infested with the kids of really rich people with tons of connections. Taking these guys head on and expecting to beat them at their own game (i.e. international big law firm game and getting good grades in law school game) sounds like madness to me. Odds are probably very very low. plus having to learn foreign languages too, on top of that if i transfer to a foreign firm, I wont exactly be location independnet. I will just be dependent on a different location.

Odds to run a new type of law firm are probably also quite low, but at least the time commitment is much lower before I get to see if I will obtain the results I want.
Keep in mind Im not even going to try to obtain the revenue the local lawyer obtains.


I think I will run some market tests to see if people are willing to hire a lawyer working remotely but charging drastically less for certain tasks. Basically, my whole idea hinges on this being hte case (their being a market), but maybe you are right and its not the case. Only one way to find out.
If there is no market, then I wont do it obviously.

Working for a US law firm's foreign office is very competitive and is generally limited to grads from top 10 schools, although there are exceptions for people with a lot of local work experience and language skills. These offices do hire people directly so you would not necessarily be required to work in the US first.

An easier option would be to work as a US lawyer or editor at a local firm. These jobs pay less and have become much more competitive but would provide better contacts, experience and pay than trying to work on your own.

It depends a lot on where you want to work. If you have dreams of being based in some remote areas, than you will be limited to servicing expats or trying something online. If you want to work in Asia or Europe, there are a lot of options if you have languages skills. If you really have no intention of practicing in the US, you might want to look into becoming qualified as an English solicitor. If you are qualified in the US, I think it just requires a test and it will open up more options with law firms overseas.

Post: #9

(05-12-2012 12:17 PM)alphascout Wrote:  thanks or the input, especially about clients not paying. will have to do some sort of retainer system, or sell their debts to a collection agency if that happens.

I know there are tons of out of work lawyers currently.
There must be some states with less flooded markets though? obviously not NY.

what about other countries? Australia? UK? Canada? I imagine I could get into law school in any of these countries with my grades (3.74 gpa and 169 LSAT)

Maybe the key is the blog thing, If I can set up a nice blog and develop strongly in a legal niche during law school, i can get web traffic which may translate into clients afterwards.

The key for building a legal business is experience and contacts. My advice is to decide where you want to live and spend your 3 years of law school trying to get a job in that market (e.g., do summer internships there, visit the relevant firms, join the relevant student groups). Once you have a few years of experience, you will have some credibility with clients, an idea of what services you can market and to whom and maybe even some portable business. If you don't speak the local language and aren't going to a top school, you will face an uphill battle but 3 years of searching should be sufficient to land you something in your target market. Of course, if you are foregoing the more lucrative legal jobs and are lukewarm on living the rest of your life off your own legal practice, you may want to consider whether it is worth 3 years of your life to get a law degree. You can get a job teaching English abroad and it would likely pay more than you could make (at least initially) from setting up your own legal practice.

Post: #10

lemmo: I am confused. Do you know of anyone that has tried to set up a virtual law office? obviously large corporate clients are impossible to get for what im talking about. I think access to these markets are highly guarded and upper classes are gatekeepers anyway. Basically, its impossible to break into these markets unless if you com from certain elite families and went to certain prep schools. There is the odd exception, but again, its the exception. too much risk for me to expect to be that exception and to believe in fairy tales.

I am 0% interested in the conventional law school student path. Is there really no other way, or have people just not tried? Do you know of someone trying to set up a virtual law practice?


Im thinking small corporate or personal clients. Not focusing on rich people, but the everyday people who generally dont have the means to even have a lawyer and generally end up representing themselves. Basically, I can see future clients as people who currently dont really use lawyers due to cost constraints. so not the existing base of customers that lawyers currently deal with (i.e., rich people and big corporate). I figure the rich people market is basically satuared and impossible to break into, unless if you follow existing norms and jump through all the hoops the firm partners wnat you to jump through. Which i have no interest in doing.

Post: #11

just to be clear, I am very greatful for your input lemmo. Im just at the stage where I want to see if its possible to do what I proposed. The traditional route is not for me, and i will do something else if virtual law practice is not possible as a means to location independence (including living in remote places). I know most of traditional big law jobs in foriegn offices are in big expensive cities, also with high costs for keeping up with hte jones. I might as well stay in the US, i mean, why go to say berlin to face the exact same culture? different country, same problem. That is not location independence, that is being trapped in Germany and US.

Post: #12

(05-12-2012 12:30 PM)alphascout Wrote:  lemmo: I am confused. Do you know of anyone that has tried to set up a virtual law office? obviously large corporate clients are impossible to get for what im talking about. I think access to these markets are highly guarded and upper classes are gatekeepers anyway. Basically, its impossible to break into these markets unless if you com from certain elite families and went to certain prep schools. There is the odd exception, but again, its the exception. too much risk for me to expect to be that exception and to believe in fairy tales.

I am 0% interested in the conventional law school student path. Is there really no other way, or have people just not tried? Do you know of someone trying to set up a virtual law practiceÉ


Im thinking small corporate or personal clients. Not focusing on rich people, but the everyday people who generally dont have the means to even have a lawyer and generally end up representing themselves. Basically, I can see future clients as people who currently dont really use lawyers due to cost constraints. so not the existing base of customers that lawyers currently deal with (i.e., rich people and big corporate). I figure the rich people market is basically satuared and impossible to break into, unless if you follow existing norms and jump through all the hoops the firm partners wnat you to jump through. Which i have no interest in doing.

I don't know any lawyers who are entirely virtual. I do know lawyers - from large international firms to solo practicioners - who maintain a significant online presence. All of them devote extensive time to attending conferences and otherwise meeting potential clients face to face. All of them had prior experience and a niche they focused on which allowed them to market themselves as experts and target their audience. What you are proposing might work, but you would either need to have a pipeline of clients (e.g., a lawyer who refers you small fish he doesn't want to bother with) or a really unique and effective marketing campaign. I'm just not seeing how a web presence that says, for example, "I'll draft your will for $20" will get to the right people and translate into paying clients in a sufficient quantity to make it worth your bother.

I don't think foreign markets are as closed as you think, but I'm not sure what markets you're interested in. Family connections and prep schools are pretty much irrelevant for a US lawyer (maybe these things still have some relevance for local lawyers in some of the smaller European markets but not for a US lawyer trying to get into those markets). As a US lawyer, you will be judged on where you went to undergrad and law school, your grades and your language skills. Like I said, getting a job with a US firm will be difficult but you might be able to get a job with a local firm (a Korean firm in Korea, a Japanese firm in Japan, etc). You may just be doing editing work at a local firm but it would pay the bills.

Post: #13

i agree with you though. law is definately something people are often willing to pay high prices for. I also know that people tend to associate high price with quality.
so i will likely face a barrier there.

But lets say I graduate from Cornell Law. Wont that Cornell degree offset somewhat the idea that low cost = low quality. Plus i would imagine it would be such a novelty to have a lawyer from a top rate school offering their services for cheap.

Post: #14

(05-12-2012 12:40 PM)alphascout Wrote:  just to be clear, I am very greatful for your input lemmo. Im just at the stage where I want to see if its possible to do what I proposed. The traditional route is not for me, and i will do something else if virtual law practice is not possible as a means to location independence (including living in remote places). I know most of traditional big law jobs in foriegn offices are in big expensive cities, also with high costs for keeping up with hte jones. I might as well stay in the US, i mean, why go to say berlin to face the exact same culture? different country, same problem. That is not location independence, that is being trapped in Germany and US.

Actually, if you are working for a local firm instead of a US firm, I think you will find the culture and work environment much better. I'm not saying what you are proposing is impossible. I'm just saying (i) I have never heard of it working and have seen first hand in multiple cases how a large web presence does not necessarily translate into clients and (ii) an intermediate step where you work for an employer overseas might be a good compromise that allows you to make some money and get some experience while still enjoying life outside the US.

Post: #15

I'm a lawyer, run my own firm, and am good at what I do so I can hopefully provide you with some guidance:

Quote:I'm trying to figure out what type of career to pursue. My goal is to be location independent and earn a good salary.

That's a great goal. But to do it as a lawyer will take effort, time and dedication. And even then given the field you want to do it in makes it very difficult.

Quote:I applied to several law schools and have been offered scholarships for almost all my tuition. Though I have the grades to be admitted to a top 10 law school in the US, I refuse to take on any significant amount of debt.

Where you go to law school makes a huge difference. When I was working at the firm, the partner in charge of hiring would always ask where did candidate X graduate from. If it was a good school, he got an interview automatically. The degree carries a lot of weight with it. And also, if you do plan on doing an online type thing, your pedigree will help you attract clients since they cannot rely on an in-person meet.

There is a reason the other schools are giving you a free ride, because they cannot compete with the higher end schools. I've sat in on classes in third tier schools and they are complete garbage compared to how better schools teach. Evaluate all relevant aspects but cost should not be the determinative factor. I chose a school a few ranks below the best school I got into because I wanted to be in California vs. elsewhere. So there is a balancing aspect to it. However, going to Columbia law and having school loans vs. something like Fordham law for free is a no brainer. The effect of saying I graduated from (insert top school) has a profound impact. Think of it as an investment.

Quote:I have absolutely no interest in slaving away in some corporate law firm to pay back 200k in debt, and that is if im lucky enough to land a job in today's economy. What a nightmare. I also don't want to be trapped in the dystopian hell that has become the anglosphere.

This ties somewhat into the above, where the better school you went to the more likely you are to get a job. My sister and cousin are both lawyers. My sister has a title of attorney at her job but is basically just a secretary and makes 50k a year. She can't get anything better. My cousin was unemployed after law school for over two years until she just got a job as a paralegal for $20/hr. I currently pay a licensed attorney $13/hour to be my assistant. I have another attorney that works for me for free just to get experience. You have to understand how brutal the job market is right now.

But, it is absolutely necessary to get firm experience. I learned everything I know now from my previous firm job. How to run a case, talk with clients, attract business, deal with people that don't pay, make perceived value, argue in court, write, deal with judges, handle opposing counsel, be nice to my secretary, negotiate, etc. All these took years and I'm still learning every day on my own. Being a good lawyer is a combination of two things: 1) being extremely analytical and sharp, and 2) experience. 1 can compensate for 2 a lot, but not entirely. There are just certain things you learn by doing rather than reading. Law school teaches you how to think like a lawyer, but there is not much practical education involved. I can't tell you how many lawyers I've ran into that cannot grasp the real world nuances involved with being a lawyer. They limit themselves to seeing things as black and white, communicate only by citing to statutes and cases and don't appreciate the grey areas which allow you to exert yourself as a lawyer.

I waited four years after law school, working for a firm and learning everything I can until I went out on my own. Even at that four year mark, I did not know everything I needed to. But I did not want to wait any longer and having say 80% of the knowledge I needed was enough. But I would have failed miserably had I went right after law school. You have absolutely no idea what you are doing in the first two years. There is a large difference between choosing to go out on your own, or being forced into it because of a lack of a job. Sometimes that is your only option; however that can be mitigated by upping your credentials and going to one of the better schools possible.

As for the debt, be smart about your student loans. There are deals to be had. I currently pay 0.75% interest on my 30-year loan. That is not a typo. I have absolutely no incentive to pay it off even a day early.

Quote:Instead i want something different,
my goal is simple: Location Independent Lawyer. I just want to be able to charge 30-80$ for legal work I can do online.

It is a good idea, in theory. But you will have to offer something that does not require face to face interaction, which is the cornerstone of how legal practice works. What if they have a question about your work? What if they need follow-up help? The idea of a niche market can work, something like drafting wills or other transactional type work. But then you run into powerhouses like legalzoom. Why would a potential client choose someone just out of law school over a reputable company like legalzoom? To save $100 on a will that determines how their livelihood is distributed to their loved ones upon death? No way. You'd need to develop credentials in order for people to "trust" you as their attorney, which is very hard for people to do anyway. Law is reputation. Rarely do people just randomly pick an attorney. Of let's say the last 30 or so clients that I got, one was not referral based (i.e. google search).

Quote:Im wondering if anyone has tried or knows of anyone who has done virtual lawyering?

Of course, this is completely new and largely untested strategy for location independent income. But it makes perfect sense because lawyers deal 100% in intangible goods. Like a programmer or web developer, there is no physical reason, provided that the person is trained in the said state and knows the law, cant do the work online. All the books and cases are available online now a days.

I say all the above but ironically I am trying to implement this myself. But it's hard. At least for litigation, your clients are not going to want someone other than yourself to handle the larger and more important aspects of a case. That's directly a "physical reason" why you cannot be fully location independent. You have depositions, motions, and potentially trial which you cannot substitute yourself for. Which is why I stated the transactional side of things (drafting contracts, wills, trusts, etc.) is more prone to work in this type of system. They send you details, you draft it, send it back.

The training aspect that you mention comes from after law school, not before. And law is not set in stone...it changes on a daily basis. My last case completely turned on a decision that was issued only 6 months prior. You have to keep up to speed on these things.

Quote:
The obstacles are:

(1) BAR requirements to maintain residency and office in the said state.
(I know there was a recent decision in NY which found it unconstitutional for NY to force residency requirements on NY Lawyers. any other states like this?)

(2) BAR requirements to ensure confidentiality. will have to invest in good encryption technology no doubt. blackberry server would probably suffice.

(3) Existing Law firms not being okay with the location independence, and basically forcing you to stay if you want to keep be a lawyer at the firm which you need to gain some experience (I think starting my own firm is the way to go).

(4) Earning clients trust while abroad, I think this can be remedied by charging drastically less $$.

(5) Taxes, who gets to collect tax? the state where I am practicing law or The state or the place where I happen to be living.?

(6) Keeping student loans to a minimum to avoid debt slave situation.

1) Haven't run into this or know of any such limitations.
2) The confidentiality stems more so from you not communicating your client's information, etc. to others willingly, not necessarily the protection of data. There are not a lot of hackers running around trying to find out what Mr. Johnson from NY wants in his will.
3) I discussed this above. Starting your own firm is the way to go, but only after you know what the hell you are doing. I've run into countless attorneys that went out on their own right from the start and they are for the most part horrible. And yes, existing law firms will not be okay with any type of location independence. Law firms are pyramid schemes. They make money by having you there slaving away.
4) To a point yes. But it depends what they are having you do. I personally would rather pay full rate on a contract, will, etc. that will have a drastic impact on my business or life than to cut corners and save a few bucks to go with Online Random guy.
5) No idea, not a tax guy.
6) Discussed above.

Quote:My plan right now is to basically do the opposite of what everyone else is doing right now in law school to avoid being outsourced (focusing on pleading, going to court, etc...). I will focus on precisely everything that can be outsourced, so that I can ultimately outsource myself.

good or stupid idea? If anyone knows or has any experience in virtual lawyering, it would be gold.

Can it be done, maybe. But I wouldn't make this my objective with going to law school as my means. For someone to pay you for legal work, they will need to know you are good. And nobody is good right out of law school. Focus on becoming a lawyer first, becoming a good lawyer second, becoming an experienced lawyer third and then offer these skills in this medium.

Feel free to PM me if you want to chat further or have any questions about law school or being an attorney. Always happy to try and help.

Post: #16

(05-12-2012 12:48 PM)alphascout Wrote:  i agree with you though. law is definately something people are often willing to pay high prices for. I also know that people tend to associate high price with quality.
so i will likely face a barrier there.

But lets say I graduate from Cornell Law. Wont that Cornell degree offset somewhat the idea that low cost = low quality. Plus i would imagine it would be such a novelty to have a lawyer from a top rate school offering their services for cheap.

It will help but degrees from top schools tend to be more useful for getting employment with firms than selling services to individuals. And you'd be surprised at the number of unemployed Ivy League lawyers out there handing out their business cards trying to get a few clients. I think the main obstacle will just be making people aware of your services and then getting them to hire and pay you without meeting you. Basically, your situation will be the same as any struggling new solo practicioner but you will have the added disadvantages of not being in a place where you can meet your clients face to face, can't take advantage of any existing family or social network (at least to the same extent) and are entirely dependent on web marketing. It is an appealing idea and might be something you could pull off later in a career when you have experience and contacts or if the economy picks up. Just looking at all the struggling solos out there, I don't see how you'd overcome all these obstacles.

Post: #17

(05-12-2012 12:45 PM)Lemmo Wrote:  

(05-12-2012 12:30 PM)alphascout Wrote:  lemmo: I am confused. Do you know of anyone that has tried to set up a virtual law office? obviously large corporate clients are impossible to get for what im talking about. I think access to these markets are highly guarded and upper classes are gatekeepers anyway. Basically, its impossible to break into these markets unless if you com from certain elite families and went to certain prep schools. There is the odd exception, but again, its the exception. too much risk for me to expect to be that exception and to believe in fairy tales.

I am 0% interested in the conventional law school student path. Is there really no other way, or have people just not tried? Do you know of someone trying to set up a virtual law practiceÉ


Im thinking small corporate or personal clients. Not focusing on rich people, but the everyday people who generally dont have the means to even have a lawyer and generally end up representing themselves. Basically, I can see future clients as people who currently dont really use lawyers due to cost constraints. so not the existing base of customers that lawyers currently deal with (i.e., rich people and big corporate). I figure the rich people market is basically satuared and impossible to break into, unless if you follow existing norms and jump through all the hoops the firm partners wnat you to jump through. Which i have no interest in doing.

I don't know any lawyers who are entirely virtual. I do know lawyers - from large international firms to solo practicioners - who maintain a significant online presence. All of them devote extensive time to attending conferences and otherwise meeting potential clients face to face. All of them had prior experience and a niche they focused on which allowed them to market themselves as experts and target their audience. What you are proposing might work, but you would either need to have a pipeline of clients (e.g., a lawyer who refers you small fish he doesn't want to bother with) or a really unique and effective marketing campaign. I'm just not seeing how a web presence that says, for example, "I'll draft your will for $20" will get to the right people and translate into paying clients in a sufficient quantity to make it worth your bother.

I don't think foreign markets are as closed as you think, but I'm not sure what markets you're interested in. Family connections and prep schools are pretty much irrelevant for a US lawyer (maybe these things still have some relevance for local lawyers in some of the smaller European markets but not for a US lawyer trying to get into those markets). As a US lawyer, you will be judged on where you went to undergrad and law school, your grades and your language skills. Like I said, getting a job with a US firm will be difficult but you might be able to get a job with a local firm (a Korean firm in Korea, a Japanese firm in Japan, etc). You may just be doing editing work at a local firm but it would pay the bills.

From my research on big law partners, it looks like its mostly family and connections based. Although, obviously the official rhetoric is that anyone can do it if they try hard enough and all the top people have tons of degrees. Im not stupid enough to fall for that trap. Instead I look at the firm websites, see who is working there at the top (partners), research these people, their families and schools. From what I can see, mobility in law is very much a myth, perhaps designed to sucker in new people.

I know that what i propose is not how things are now. but things change according to what ive read about current trends in law and outsourcing. why think conventionally?

What about emergency situations? It is often the case that people need their legal work done quickly due to deadlines. Often, small time lawyers don't have the resources overseas to pull off 24h operations like the big firms have. I could maybe partner with small lawyers to provide them with service to their existing clients, when emergencies occur and they need someone working on something at night while they sleep.

Post: #18

(05-12-2012 12:58 PM)alphascout Wrote:  

(05-12-2012 12:45 PM)Lemmo Wrote:  

(05-12-2012 12:30 PM)alphascout Wrote:  lemmo: I am confused. Do you know of anyone that has tried to set up a virtual law office? obviously large corporate clients are impossible to get for what im talking about. I think access to these markets are highly guarded and upper classes are gatekeepers anyway. Basically, its impossible to break into these markets unless if you com from certain elite families and went to certain prep schools. There is the odd exception, but again, its the exception. too much risk for me to expect to be that exception and to believe in fairy tales.

I am 0% interested in the conventional law school student path. Is there really no other way, or have people just not tried? Do you know of someone trying to set up a virtual law practiceÉ


Im thinking small corporate or personal clients. Not focusing on rich people, but the everyday people who generally dont have the means to even have a lawyer and generally end up representing themselves. Basically, I can see future clients as people who currently dont really use lawyers due to cost constraints. so not the existing base of customers that lawyers currently deal with (i.e., rich people and big corporate). I figure the rich people market is basically satuared and impossible to break into, unless if you follow existing norms and jump through all the hoops the firm partners wnat you to jump through. Which i have no interest in doing.

I don't know any lawyers who are entirely virtual. I do know lawyers - from large international firms to solo practicioners - who maintain a significant online presence. All of them devote extensive time to attending conferences and otherwise meeting potential clients face to face. All of them had prior experience and a niche they focused on which allowed them to market themselves as experts and target their audience. What you are proposing might work, but you would either need to have a pipeline of clients (e.g., a lawyer who refers you small fish he doesn't want to bother with) or a really unique and effective marketing campaign. I'm just not seeing how a web presence that says, for example, "I'll draft your will for $20" will get to the right people and translate into paying clients in a sufficient quantity to make it worth your bother.

I don't think foreign markets are as closed as you think, but I'm not sure what markets you're interested in. Family connections and prep schools are pretty much irrelevant for a US lawyer (maybe these things still have some relevance for local lawyers in some of the smaller European markets but not for a US lawyer trying to get into those markets). As a US lawyer, you will be judged on where you went to undergrad and law school, your grades and your language skills. Like I said, getting a job with a US firm will be difficult but you might be able to get a job with a local firm (a Korean firm in Korea, a Japanese firm in Japan, etc). You may just be doing editing work at a local firm but it would pay the bills.

From my research on big law partners, it looks like its mostly family and connections based. Although, obviously the official rhetoric is that anyone can do it if they try hard enough and all the top people have tons of degrees. Im not stupid enough to fall for that trap. Instead I look at the firm websites, see who is working there at the top (partners), research these people, their families and schools. From what I can see, mobility in law is very much a myth, perhaps designed to sucker in new people.

I know that what i propose is not how things are now. but things change according to what ive read about current trends in law and outsourcing. why think conventionally?

What about emergency situations? It is often the case that people need their legal work done quickly due to deadlines. Often, small time lawyers don't have the resources overseas to pull off 24h operations like the big firms have. I could maybe partner with small lawyers to provide them with service to their existing clients, when emergencies occur and they need someone working on something at night while they sleep.

I definitely wasn't suggesting you try to become a partner at a large law firm. I was just saying that being an associate at a firm to gain some experience before trying to go solo would likely be beneficial.

Post: #19

slubu: thanks for the excellent advice.

obviously for litigation online lawyering is impossible (except maybe providing advice to people who self-represent, which is actually a huge number of people).
Its impossible to represent people in court if your not there.

It seems like the primary obstacle to the virtual law practice is reputation. this can be overcome somewhat with going to a good school, but not entirely.

I'm wondering if there is any other way to modify clients opinions and perception to take up my services without slaving away for years first. Maybe trying to set up website with good SEO for lawyer rankings, and then just placing my firm high up on the list. Not sure if thats viable BAR wise. I would think the key is to build a popular website tp obtain the types of clients i want and then to focus on client retention for those clients that i do obtain.

From what ive seen, the average person who i will be targeting (i.e. middle class to lower class people, small corporate) does not know one law firm from another. They dont know the difference between Cravaths and Crambers. They tend to know big name schools though. Im thinking volunteering for big orgs like the UN may up my value in their minds, but its hard to say.

keep in mind though my plan is to compete based on price, compared to other same ranking school grads.

I have no interest on going the standard route. I think Im going to figure out which state (or other anglo countries) have the least flooded legal market and try to get into the top state school with best reputation and top scholarship so i can reduce costs.

So which school would I have to graduate from realistically to make this business model work? a Top state school? Cornell? NYU? Harvard?!

I mean, i also like this model because it improves access to justice. One of the reasons I am actually discussing it out in the open is because I want low income people to have more access to justice. I want other people, not just me, to give this business model a try.

Post: #20

lemmo: fair enough, i see variety at the associate level. But from what ive read its not only extremely competitive, but also brutal work once you do get in. sounds like complete shit.


I think its clear that Im going to need to do market research on potential customers and existing competitors and come up with a business plan before going forward with law school.

Post: #21

alphascout: I'm starting a law degree next semester. If this is something you're serious about starting in the next few years, we should keep in touch. Being location independent is something I'm very interested in, also.

Post: #22

This is a topic of interest for me too. I just graduated from a dc area school and am at a big firm. One blog I found was nomadlaw.com, but it appears to be down now. Perhaps a more realistic approach is to find a niche area where you live, and systematize things so that all the work is mostly autopilot. Hire a paralegal. This might give you the freedom to travel for say a month at a time. The tricky part is finding the niche and getting the clients.

Btw if any of you have an electrical engineering degree and a law degree and want a job at a big law firm in the dc office, pm me. Standard dc area salary scale afaik.

Post: #23

Well Op you said you are figuring out what type of career to do, and your main aim is to be location independent.

There are plenty of other careers/jobs where you can work from anywhere and make good cash

Post: #24

(05-12-2012 10:51 AM)alphascout Wrote:  I'm trying to figure out what type of career to pursue. My goal is to be location independent and earn a good salary.

I applied to several law schools and have been offered scholarships for almost all my tuition. Though I have the grades to be admitted to a top 10 law school in the US, I refuse to take on any significant amount of debt.
I have absolutely no interest in slaving away in some corporate law firm to pay back 200k in debt, and that is if im lucky enough to land a job in today's economy. What a nightmare. I also don't want to be trapped in the dystopian hell that has become the anglosphere.


Instead i want something different,
my goal is simple: Location Independent Lawyer. I just want to be able to charge 30-80$ for legal work I can do online.


Im wondering if anyone has tried or knows of anyone who has done virtual lawyering?

Of course, this is completely new and largely untested strategy for location independent income. But it makes perfect sense because lawyers deal 100% in intangible goods. Like a programmer or web developer, there is no physical reason, provided that the person is trained in the said state and knows the law, cant do the work online. All the books and cases are available online now a days.



The obstacles are:

(1) BAR requirements to maintain residency and office in the said state.
(I know there was a recent decision in NY which found it unconstitutional for NY to force residency requirements on NY Lawyers. any other states like this?)

(2) BAR requirements to ensure confidentiality. will have to invest in good encryption technology no doubt. blackberry server would probably suffice.

(3) Existing Law firms not being okay with the location independence, and basically forcing you to stay if you want to keep be a lawyer at the firm which you need to gain some experience (I think starting my own firm is the way to go).

(4) Earning clients trust while abroad, I think this can be remedied by charging drastically less $$.

(5) Taxes, who gets to collect tax? the state where I am practicing law or The state or the place where I happen to be living.?

(6) Keeping student loans to a minimum to avoid debt slave situation.



My plan right now is to basically do the opposite of what everyone else is doing right now in law school to avoid being outsourced (focusing on pleading, going to court, etc...). I will focus on precisely everything that can be outsourced, so that I can ultimately outsource myself.

good or stupid idea? If anyone knows or has any experience in virtual lawyering, it would be gold.

I think you need to re-assess why you want to go to law school. What are you life goals? If your main life goal is to be location independent, being a lawyer is probably a bad idea. It is a profession that depends largely on face to face personal interactions. You build up a client base over years of connections with business contacts and, often, family and friends. You simply can’t build those relationships over time.

Also, as a profession, the main advantage that a lawyer has over, say a website selling forms for wills and trusts, is that lawyers have a monopoly on being able to represent someone in court. This is something of an over simplification, but not much. You don’t need to go to law school to advise how to structure a deal. You don’t need to go to law school to provide estate planning. You don’t need to go to law school to know how to file a patent. In fact, law school doesn’t teach you how to do any of those things. You only learn through going out and practicing. If you are in another country, you just can’t represent someone in court. And you can’t learn how to do all the other things that lawyers do without going to a law firm.

Now, one thing you can do is work for a law firm and then get transferred overseas. I know this one kid who worked at a big Texas firm, went in-house, and got transferred to Buenos Aires. He’s making $200k and living like a god. But he’s not location independent. He’s just making bank in a awesome place.

If you really want location independence, I would suggest a different career. Or, instead of spending the next three years of your life in lectures, go build a business. And, in all honesty, the world doesn’t need another lawyer.

Post: #25

My friend is an experienced laywer and what he told me is that clients and relationships with them are everything. Being location independent won't help you with that. Most of his clients come through referalls and such.

He also told me you should only be a lawyer if you truly love it, otherwise the job is hard to handle and will make you miserable. He has a passion for it though, and he loves it.