Post: #1

- Looks matter, there is no debate
(to what extent is perhaps, arguable).

- Early game arose and was primarily used as a tool for beta men of average or below looks. Reasons may be varied, one theory perhaps may include early online game adopters, were, generally speaking, more nerdy/awkward/reclusive/computer orientated. With smart phones, T.V shows etc, game and game concepts are more widespread, reaching a far broader demographic of men, including good looking guys who didnt need game per se, but were still raised by single mothers, emasculated fathers and modern media resulting in a strong lack of correct male/female interaction.

-As game theory advances, it is becoming more apparent there are differences between average looking men and good looking men in terms of the dynamic with females.
Example:
1) IOD's (Indicators of disinterest) can be misconstrued based on traditional game theory, when in fact a woman is simply shy/intimidated.
Read this post on the matter: http://flyfreshandyoung.wordpress.com/20...s-act-shy/
2) From same blog, OVERGAMINg is real, and something good looking guys need to be more aware of. I hamstrung myself in the past by this. See this bloggers post: http://flyfreshandyoung.wordpress.com/20...vergaming/


As a good looking guy (although 5'9 barefoot) I am in incredible shape with a handsom face, well groomed, well dressed blah blah I've noticed a few incongruencies/difference with traditional game theories in addition to the ones above.

These include: Some girls are simply interested in banging (no problem with this, however this is particularly common with ones I meet at clubs), I am 'too much' for them to feel secure in a relationship. (Maybe I'm not aiming high enough) My leanness draws attention to their own physical insecurities , negs are not as effective , I get a better response from being nice (had a girl delete my off BBM recently after I ran into her while with other girls, I played nice guy game and clarified i'm not a player, despite how I look/dress/hangout with. Could not have worked out better).

Core concepts related to masculinity, non-neediness, kino, etc still apply, but there are some notable differences. What do you all think on this matter?

Post: #2

I've been on a full on tear lately. Up until a few weeks ago I was nailing 2 new girls per week on average. I've gotten burned out from meeting up with girls 5-6 and even 7 nights a week for drinks. As a guy that I think fits your description, what I have noticed is that it's very easy to overgame girls. I have noticed that girls can feel overgamed just because I am too comfortable in the situation. They can pick up right away that you "probably do this all the time". I give credit to Tuthmosis (over and over) for his recipe in not going for the make out and only using touching (not using the fucking word "kino" anymore) before getting her to come back to your place/hotel.

Other mistakes I've made using "game": Talking to other girls for too long/much in front of the other girl. Before, I thought it would make me look more attractive to have other women all over me when in fact, it was a turn off for some girls because they felt like they were one of many (true but you don't want them to KNOW it).

Drinking too much hoping to get them fucked up and ready to smash. A lot of girls want to get fucked up and make bad excuses but some of them again, don't want to feel like they are in a routine, especially the ones who have already been there and done that.

Saying "I'm open to a relationship if the right girl comes along". Every player says that, and it's worn out.

I fucked a girl the other night that I'd seen once before 6 months ago. 23 years old, dark hair, fitness competion winner, fake tits, great ass. I went to her place, watched a movie, and barely got a kiss. The movie was horrible (This Means War). At the end of the movie we were talking and I didn't get the feeling she was turned on but I also didn't get the feeling she wanted me to leave. I just said "How about we have a good ole fashioned high school makeout session?" She started laughing and said "alright". I banged the hell out of her. The only game principle I consciously follow now is the one where you give her plausible deniability, in this case "high school makeout" made her feel safe and after she was turned on enough she no longer cared.

Post: #3

Great post

(06-06-2012 03:42 PM)Fisto Wrote:  They can pick up right away that you "probably do this all the time". I give credit to Tuthmosis (over and over) for his recipe in not going for the make out and only using touching (not using the fucking word "kino" anymore) before getting her to come back to your place/hotel.

Do you have a link to this?

Quote:Other mistakes I've made using "game": Talking to other girls for too long/much in front of the other girl. Before, I thought it would make me look more attractive to have other women all over me when in fact, it was a turn off for some girls because they felt like they were one of many (true but you don't want them to KNOW it).

This is one that I also have to be careful with, can backfire with some girls.

Quote: The only game principle I consciously follow now is the one where you give her plausible deniability, in this case "high school makeout" made her feel safe and after she was turned on enough she no longer cared.

Solid notion man

Post: #4

Be good looking. Be around girls who are drinking. Don't say anything stupid.

Some guys have all the luck..

Post: #5

(06-06-2012 04:27 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  Be good looking. Be around girls who are drinking. Don't say anything stupid.

Some guys have all the luck..

Still have to:

1. Lead and dictate the action

2. Crack a joke or two

3. Close

4. Have airtight logistics

Yeah, that is pretty much strong Game.

Post: #6

(06-06-2012 05:07 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(06-06-2012 04:27 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  Be good looking. Be around girls who are drinking. Don't say anything stupid.

Some guys have all the luck..

Still have to:

1. Lead and dictate the action

2. Close

3. Have airtight logistics

Yeah, that is pretty much strong Game.

I don't think #1 is always necessary. My good looking friends often just sit back quietly and don't say too much til the girls are tipsy. They let the girls talk about whatever they want to and just sit back looking good, smiling, and laughing. This is often enough. Just being good looking often dictates enough action. (as you know)

Closing is a skill that can "make or break" any player. Sort of like the "killer instinct" in sports.

Logistics should be as simple as "lets get a taxi". I don't make any moves unless my logistics are properly in place.

Post: #7

I think location is huge here too.

In DC where the ratios are bad and girls generally have a large pick of a large pool of tall, white-guys, with good jobs, (and thus I'm not special), these sit-back-and-wait strategies aren't as effective in my opinion. I will get tons of IOI in DC by cute girls, but they're not bold enough to come right up to you (as they don't have to).

In Miami or Chicago, girls approach me at least a couple times a night. In Fort Lauderdale I had a 8/9 (without getting too much into the rating system she was the best looking and best dressed in a large bar in south florida) come right up to me before New Years. Literally tapped my glass and gave a sly smile about 3 minutes before the countdown. Made out with her lots but didn't close.

My point is, if you're good-looking in an area where the ratio is more in your favor and/or you stand out from the competition (tall white in Miami vs. average height and Latino) being good-looking pretty much does the work for you.

Post: #8

This has been covered extensively in this thread
/thread-7069.html

Post: #9

(06-06-2012 04:01 PM)Sonofzeus Wrote:  

(06-06-2012 03:42 PM)Fisto Wrote:  They can pick up right away that you "probably do this all the time". I give credit to Tuthmosis (over and over) for his recipe in not going for the make out and only using touching (not using the fucking word "kino" anymore) before getting her to come back to your place/hotel.

Do you have a link to this?

One of my favorite threads on this board.

Post: #10

I can't take the "good looking guys" debates very seriously when i watch Tyler Durden in action.....He is a living proof that looks barely if not at all matter

Post: #11

(06-09-2012 06:03 AM)Andreas Wrote:  I can't take the "good looking guys" debates very seriously when i watch Tyler Durden in action.....He is a living proof that looks barely if not at all matter

He's selling shit like lots of other people. Game helps everybody obviously. To deny that looks are a big part of it however is denial and/or a means to sell to the masses. Think about who actually goes to "workshops", its not the kind of people who ever were pulling in the first place.

Post: #12

(06-09-2012 06:03 AM)Andreas Wrote:  I can't take the "good looking guys" debates very seriously when i watch Tyler Durden in action.....He is a living proof that looks barely if not at all matter

I had to look that guy up on youtube. What a surprise - an overweight, long haired PUA who looks like an ex country musician who's selling a dream. I have a hard time believing he's pulling bad bitches looking like that. You are out of your mind if you think looks barely matter.

Post: #13

(06-09-2012 06:03 AM)Andreas Wrote:  I can't take the "good looking guys" debates very seriously when i watch Tyler Durden in action.....He is a living proof that looks barely if not at all matter

Tyler Durden's "game" is selling pick up courses and bootcamps to beta chodes.

Post: #14

(06-09-2012 06:03 AM)Andreas Wrote:  I can't take the "good looking guys" debates very seriously when i watch Tyler Durden in action.....He is a living proof that looks barely if not at all matter

Tyler Durden has probably been studying and practicing game full time for many years. Someone like that should have high level game, and be able to overcome their average looks in many cases.

The average guy trying to learn game hasn't been studying it full time for the last 10 years. He doesn't have all that practice and experience. It will be harder for him to overcome his looks because his game might not be as strong.

Don't expect to be like Tyler Durden unless you have a 5-10 years to dedicate full time to game. If you are just a regular, average looking guy starting out in game, get your looks together as best you can, hair, clothes, body, skin, style. But, also work on your inner game and conversational skills at the same time. Game is more important then looks but looks will open alot of doors for you also.

Post: #15

I get told I'm good looking a lot (just last night a girl in a club asked me kiddingly if I was a gigolo lol). I get approached 2-3 times almost every time I go out. So I think I can speak to this issue.

It's more nuanced than just saying that game is all that matters or that looks are all that matter.

Good looks do open doors for you more easily. You will get approached by the more aggressive or drunk girls. In my experience, the most common approachers are 5s and 6s. Sometimes 7s and way overconfident 4s.

Girls are also more open to your approaches. Sure I still get bitch shields or get blown out eventually, but usually 5s and 6s open at a high rate and I have decent success with 7+s.

Overgaming is real. You should still do cocky/funny, but need to tone it down especially with the less hot girls. No negs unless the girl is really hot (I've learned this the hard way)

Sometimes the less secure or horny girls will blow themselves out with you. A couple of weeks ago a cute 6 I hit it off well with outright refused to give me her number saying "You should be talking to hot girls" and implying that I was a player.I suppose she had deduced from my looks and game that she wouldn't be able to keep me around for the LTR she was looking for.

But you still need game, especially with the 7+s. As others have said, closing and logistics are key. Even if you have a looks advantage, you won't get the bang in many cases unless you can execute the final steps to isolate her.

Post: #16

(06-09-2012 11:30 AM)Giovonny Wrote:  

(06-09-2012 06:03 AM)Andreas Wrote:  I can't take the "good looking guys" debates very seriously when i watch Tyler Durden in action.....He is a living proof that looks barely if not at all matter

Tyler Durden has probably been studying and practicing game full time for many years. Someone like that should have high level game, and be able to overcome their average looks in many cases.

The average guy trying to learn game hasn't been studying it full time for the last 10 years. He doesn't have all that practice and experience. It will be harder for him to overcome his looks because his game might not be as strong.

Don't expect to be like Tyler Durden unless you have a 5-10 years to dedicate full time to game. If you are just a regular, average looking guy starting out in game, get your looks together as best you can, hair, clothes, body, skin, style. But, also work on your inner game and conversational skills at the same time. Game is more important then looks but looks will open alot of doors for you also.

Absolutely do not neglect your bankroll either. Pay off any high interest debt, invest in several asset classes, income streams, etc. That is the single best way to ensure you are still getting good bangs into your 40s and well beyond. It gives you options, makes it easier to live a lifestyle with reduced stress, and take care of your health and pursues interests and take the long approach to game, which, assuming you have the basics down, is to cultivate a lifestyle that matches your instincts and interests, whether you are a nomad, a castle builder, or somewhere in between. Whatever the case, having money makes it all much easier.

Post: #17

(06-09-2012 12:31 PM)MrXY Wrote:  Overgaming is real. You should still do cocky/funny, but need to tone it down especially with the less hot girls. No negs unless the girl is really hot (I've learned this the hard way)

But you still need game, especially with the 7+s. As others have said, closing and logistics are key. Even if you have a looks advantage, you won't get the bang in many cases unless you can execute the final steps to isolate her.

This guy knows what he's talking about.

(06-09-2012 12:34 PM)Keyser Söze Wrote:  Absolutely do not neglect your bankroll either. Pay off any high interest debt, invest in several asset classes, income streams, etc. That is the single best way to ensure you are still getting good bangs into your 40s and well beyond. It gives you options, makes it easier to live a lifestyle with reduced stress, and take care of your health and pursues interests and take the long approach to game, which, assuming you have the basics down, is to cultivate a lifestyle that matches your instincts and interests, whether you are a nomad, a castle builder, or somewhere in between. Whatever the case, having money makes it all much easier.

Beautiful financial advice!

Post: #18

(06-09-2012 11:30 AM)Giovonny Wrote:  

(06-09-2012 06:03 AM)Andreas Wrote:  I can't take the "good looking guys" debates very seriously when i watch Tyler Durden in action.....He is a living proof that looks barely if not at all matter

Tyler Durden has probably been studying and practicing game full time for many years. Someone like that should have high level game, and be able to overcome their average looks in many cases.

The average guy trying to learn game hasn't been studying it full time for the last 10 years. He doesn't have all that practice and experience. It will be harder for him to overcome his looks because his game might not be as strong.

Don't expect to be like Tyler Durden unless you have a 5-10 years to dedicate full time to game. If you are just a regular, average looking guy starting out in game, get your looks together as best you can, hair, clothes, body, skin, style. But, also work on your inner game and conversational skills at the same time. Game is more important then looks but looks will open alot of doors for you also.

Gionvonny is right, how many guys posting on this thread have read the book, "The Game", Tyler Durden has been in the game for 10 years and was living with and learning from Mystery, Neil Strauss, etc., back in the early part of the 2000's.

If you read the book you might remember how Neil described Tyler as obsessed with game, the guy spent every waking minute of his life studying game, going out 5 nights a week, etc. It got so bad that Neil came to really get weirded out by Tyler, and came to see him as something like a game-bot, he became so obsessed with game that he was like a fucking robot.

What is even more telling his that the first few years that Tyler Durden was in the game, he was a fucking FAILURE. The guy didn't get laid, got handfuls of phone numbers that flaked, and eventually settled for a girlfriend who was nothing special, (most likely a 6).

So basically the first few years Tyler was in the game he sucked. He also has spent an insane amount of time in the game, far more than any person who has to work a normal job, go to school, or has other hobbies, would have. On top of that he didn't really get much results for his first few years in the game. I'm not sure when it was that things clicked for him, and his game improved, and he started pulling women consistently, but it certainly took him a long time to get to that level.

Plus, wasn't one of the RSD followers on here saying that Tyler currently is in an LTR, I mean it's doubtful that he's going out and picking up every week. I haven't really watched many of his infield vids, or followed his career as a PUA very closely, but what caliber of women is he banging?

Considering his height most women would probably rate him a 7 at best, probably a 6 at best when he was chubby, is he/was he pulling women that are 8+ on the scale? I firmly believe that game won't take you two points higher than your rating in and of itself. In other words if you're a 6 game won't land you an 8 unless you have something other than game to offer, status or wealth (lifestyle). Now obviously there are 6's getting "lucky" and pulling 8's, but how often is it that the 8 chick decides to stick around and continue to date and fuck that guy.

Post: #19

Personally, I believe in the concept of relative value. Though we can all generally agree on who is or is not good looking it also depends on the kind of girl you are interacting with. When I am talking to a wilderbeast (why would I?), I am probably a 10 in her eyes. In the event I choose to close all I need to do is build on rapport and work logistics. If it's a girl who thinks she is way attractive than me then MM neg theory comes handy. So its all relative, I don't think there's a blanket 'good-looking-dude game' as such. But as a rule of thumb, if 9/10 girls think you are attractive you want to turn down the gamey or cocky bits and just work on rapport and logistics.

PS: Keyser, your avatar is very distracting, I could stare at it for hours.

Post: #20

If looks matter it is still far better to believe that they don't matter if you are an average looking guy. It will hold you back if you believe that good looking face matters even a little bit.

Also since people talk about lifestyle, lets not forget that most good looking guys who don't know about game are very altruistic and can be manipulated very easilly. Some of them end up in an unhappy marriage. Those who got everything handed to them in a silver platter grow very soft and stupid. Most good looking guys think that their looks are everything and that they don't need to know anything else in life. That brings us to this question

If you had good looks, would you be here in this forum and what would your life look like?

Post: #21

(06-10-2012 05:29 PM)Andreas Wrote:  If looks matter it is still far better to believe that they don't matter if you are an average looking guy. It will hold you back if you believe that good looking face matters even a little bit.

Also since people talk about lifestyle, lets not forget that most good looking guys who don't know about game are very altruistic and can be manipulated very easilly. Some of them end up in an unhappy marriage. Those who got everything handed to them in a silver platter grow very soft and stupid. Most good looking guys think that their looks are everything and that they don't need to know anything else in life. That brings us to this question

If you had good looks, would you be here in this forum and what would your life look like?

You've detailed the central struggle in this discussion. There are some people who don't have (and don't want) the ability to choose their beliefs. No matter how practical it is to believe that looks don't matter, they want to know the truth. To them truth is not merely a practical convenience.

This difference in approach is too deep to be bridged by a logical discussion.

The emotional thinkers can frustrate the logical thinkers, who are flummoxed as to why the emotional thinkers refuse to make logical connections.

Post: #22

(06-06-2012 04:27 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  Be good looking. Be around girls who are drinking. Don't say anything stupid.

Some guys have all the luck..

lol ok, that is simply not true.

The girl I'm seeing has been friends (just friends she says, but who fucking knows, he apparently tried to kiss her once) with a male model for years. I'm not necessarely an ugly guy either, but never had anything given to me due to the fact of growing up in a country full of good looking dudes and barely any good looking women.

Now, the Mr. model, additionally, inherited tons of money. You would think he gets pussy thrown at him.. but he doesn't. He dresses well and gets tons of IOI's but doesn't know how to react to them. He doesn't feel nearly as good about himself as I do (Inherited Money man vs. Self Made Money Man) or is as secure about himself as I am. He has to talk about his watch or some other crap constantly to make sure people around him are in knowledge of how great he is, which again turns most people off. I'm sure he gets laid once in a while whenever a girl needs some superficial feedback, but that's it.

I'm pretty sure he doesn't get as many girls as I do either.

My girl once told me that she was out with him having a drink and whenever he approached girls they first get all excited and he gets blown out later on. He came back to my girl complaining 'but I told them about my apartment.. and my cars! why aren't they interested?!...'

Post: #23

(06-11-2012 06:46 PM)trainwreck Wrote:  

(06-06-2012 04:27 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  Be good looking. Be around girls who are drinking. Don't say anything stupid.

Some guys have all the luck..

lol ok, that is simply not true.

The girl I'm seeing has been friends (just friends she says, but who fucking knows, he apparently tried to kiss her once) with a male model for years. I'm not necessarely an ugly guy either, but never had anything given to me due to the fact of growing up in a country full of good looking dudes and barely any good looking women.

Now, the Mr. model, additionally, inherited tons of money. You would think he gets pussy thrown at him.. but he doesn't. He dresses well and gets tons of IOI's but doesn't know how to react to them. He doesn't feel nearly as good about himself as I do (Inherited Money man vs. Self Made Money Man) or is as secure about himself as I am. He has to talk about his watch or some other crap constantly to make sure people around him are in knowledge of how great he is, which again turns most people off. I'm sure he gets laid once in a while whenever a girl needs some superficial feedback, but that's it.

I'm pretty sure he doesn't get as many girls as I do either.

My girl once told me that she was out with him having a drink and whenever he approached girls they first get all excited and he gets blown out later on. He came back to my girl complaining 'but I told them about my apartment.. and my cars! why aren't they interested?!...'

I would say those things falls under the original posters statement of "don't say anything stupid"

Post: #24

(06-11-2012 07:12 PM)snoop Wrote:  

(06-11-2012 06:46 PM)trainwreck Wrote:  

(06-06-2012 04:27 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  Be good looking. Be around girls who are drinking. Don't say anything stupid.

Some guys have all the luck..

lol ok, that is simply not true.

The girl I'm seeing has been friends (just friends she says, but who fucking knows, he apparently tried to kiss her once) with a male model for years. I'm not necessarely an ugly guy either, but never had anything given to me due to the fact of growing up in a country full of good looking dudes and barely any good looking women.

Now, the Mr. model, additionally, inherited tons of money. You would think he gets pussy thrown at him.. but he doesn't. He dresses well and gets tons of IOI's but doesn't know how to react to them. He doesn't feel nearly as good about himself as I do (Inherited Money man vs. Self Made Money Man) or is as secure about himself as I am. He has to talk about his watch or some other crap constantly to make sure people around him are in knowledge of how great he is, which again turns most people off. I'm sure he gets laid once in a while whenever a girl needs some superficial feedback, but that's it.

I'm pretty sure he doesn't get as many girls as I do either.

My girl once told me that she was out with him having a drink and whenever he approached girls they first get all excited and he gets blown out later on. He came back to my girl complaining 'but I told them about my apartment.. and my cars! why aren't they interested?!...'

I would say those things falls under the original posters statement of "don't say anything stupid"

It also lends itself to the argument that looks, without at least a little game, doesn't get you laid as much as you would think. Even "don't fuck it up game" is still game, and homie doesn't even have THAT down pat. He'll get his share of desperate chicks that will practically rape him because of his looks, but how many of them will be from the upper part of the scale? Those kinds of chicks don't EVER have to show that kind of desperation.

Post: #25

Being good looking is like having a built in opener, not much more. If you can't deliver in conversation and personality, another good looking guy who can will pick up where you left off. Also, as I pointed out before, it comes with a few other problems, girls tend to think you always fuck girls. In vegas for example, when I mention I live here, tourist girls will automatically assume (correctly) that I bang tourists. Or many times, the 7 will try and take me down a peg and just be plain rude. I'm not complaining don't get me wrong. I'm just saying the assumption that you just have to sit back and let hot pussy walk up and sit on your dick is dead absurd. This FAG game is partially true but it's misleading. If you sit there and don't say anything, that is a fuckup.