Post: #1

Caligula gave me a link to this in another thread. What are everyone's thoughts? I say you have to try A LOT harder in America if you're naturally skinny.

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/08/1...ectomorph/

Roosh also has a good video discussing this.

Post: #2

Skinny guys have some advantages as well.A skinny guy can be very energetic since he does not have much weight to move he is in constant motion.also a skinny guy is rather flexible for example in a crowded environment he can approach girls with ease.He can also look more artistic and can have reflexes.In some cases he can even walk better than steroid fuelled guys and he can stand to dance more and be more energetic while dancing.
Advantages of muscular guys are keeping position(they get never moved),having bulk taking space,controlling the environment,clearing in conflicts etc.Also being able to scare the shit out of skinny guys at will.This is very important in some cases of girls handling.

Post: #3

Great vid, Roosh. Glad to see that Roosh didn't fall for the skinny guy misinformation, he said two of the points I always make - skinny guys have never been jacked, so they'd never know. Plenty of jacked guys have been skinny or average, and they uniformly applaud being jacked. And I don't think it's because they're trying to rationalize the time they spend on it. And like I've said, what's the point of a six pack if she doesn't see it until you're about to fuck her? Having low body fat so that your face looks good is important though.

Also, Roosh says having an 'intermediate' physique like his won't reap much benefit in the US, but I think it's just not approach worthy - a girl won't come up to you often for having a semi-muscular physique, but if you approach her and get in close with her, it will raise your value. I'm also in this 'intermediate' stage - I'd have to gain at least 20 lbs to look jacked probably, on top of the 45-50 lbs I've already gained. Still, what I've done already is not without value.

As for being skinny, it's usually a bad thing. Girls think skinny guys are nerdy and sexually in experienced. When so many men are muscular in America, skinny men project weakness. The solution is not to be skinny anymore. If some serious injury precludes that, maybe you can try developing a strong look - that way she sees your look first and not your thinness. It is important to develop a strong look regardless of how big you are, of course.

I noticed foreigners with strong accents don't get pigeonholed by American women as much - for instance, an Italian could use the sappiest lines and succeed while an American couldn't in a million years.

Any time someone tells you something is 'good enough' you should get suspicious. Having a house in the suburbs is 'good enough.' Wearing ill-fitting clothes is 'good enough.' 'Good enough' is not far from average. And average guys don't get laid well.

Post: #4

I'm starting to realize that where I am, in NYC, the girls aren't not like the rest of the country or even like they are in NJ.

There's enough variety of girls here that, sure, being built can get you an "in" with some, but in Brooklyn, I think a lot of the hipstery/punk/goth/fashion girls are looking more for pretty boys, famous people, skinny dudes- more artsy types. So, I try to play this up as much as possible. That's probably why the come Williamsburg in the first place.

It's an entirely different world from guido/B&T dance clubs- I don't do well at these at all, and the girls actually try to get into fights with me. Aggro guidettes are the epitome of everything that is wrong with women American women (except that some of them stay in shape). They are like men with vaginas and it is a huge turn-off for me. And a lot of them ugly as fuck.

Post: #5

I'm skinny, and game works perfectly fine for me.

I will say this though; I get a lot of shit tests. 'You need to eat more,' 'you're more feminine than other guys' blah blah.

Post: #6

I think Roosh did a good job with the video and I more or less agree with the points he makes, it is also good to see that he is admitting the role looks play here in the U.S., as before it seemed that you'd get slapped with "game denialist" allegations when bringing up the importance of looks.

He is right on when he says that women in the U.S. are becoming more like men when it comes to how they select their sexual partners, it seems like they are all becoming more superficial or "visual" like men in wanting to hook up with the "hottest" guys. It will often work out that they will fuck the hottest guys and even have sex with them fully knowing that they will never get a commitment, the guy is just interested in sex, and is fucking other women, while they would very rarely tolerate such things from a less handsome man.

Not to hijack this thread and make it about height, or even height vs muscles vs game, but I think height is a way bigger factor in attraction than muscles. Obviously we can not change out height, unless we wear "lifts" or get that expensive surgery, neither option I would ever consider or even consider recommending to other guys. That said, I've been at the gym hard for the last 16 months, I started as a pretty out of shape guy, not fat, but no muscle definition, a bit of a gut and maybe some slight flab, I was probably 175, now I'm 190 lbs, but I have put on all muscle while losing a decent bit of body fat. I am pretty big, have HUGE traps, chest, and back, but still lacking in my arms even though I am strong, point being is that my physique has changed and it's obvious to people that I'm strong/lift weights/take the gym seriously.

Has my attraction level in women gone up? I'd say it has, but not in such a major way where there has been a huge change and I'm getting laid at a much higher frequency with higher quality women. I think if I crush it in the gym for another 8 months and stack on another 10 lbs of muscle and get my arms (tricep/biceps) huge, then it will start to make a much bigger effect. Kind of like BasilRansom said if you're in that intermediate range with your physique you're not going to have women outright approaching you to compliment and feel your muscles, but once you get jacked like Alistair Overeem women will be more or less lining up.

Another point to be made is that even having a nice physique, if you don't have the right wardrobe it's a total waste. For years I was more into baggy clothes and only bought XL t-shirts, now I only buy large t-shirts if they fit well, and prefer tighter fitting clothes now that I have a nice body where I actually want to display all the hard work that I've put into to get it. You can have big shoulders, arm, nice butt, sculpted chest, but if you wear really baggy poor-fitting clothes, women won't even be able to tell, when I wear tight fitting clothes I get about 10X the reaction as when I wear baggy clothes, even had guy friends be like "damn man looks like you got swole recently."

So to re-cap my point, you got to be really buff like in the top 5% for women to be swooning over you about your physique, but going to the gym and having a nice physique will definitely be a big bonus and give you an edge over other guys. For me the biggest effects it's had are in the amount of IOIs I receive and also even more important is that I get a lot of women initiating kino with me, where they will be touching my shoulders, arms, traps, chest, while we are talking which is obviously a big sign, and gives me the green light to return that kino back to them. I've even had women recently that have groped me at the bar, a few grabbed my butt and chest, and one even straight up grabbed my dick and squeezed it as she walked past, unfortunately I wasn't attracted enough to any of them to spit game and hook up, so while it kind of was an ego boost, it also kind of pissed me off when thinking about it in the light of "feminism" and "sexual harassment."

Anyways, a final point that I want to make is that beyond attracting women, you feel more dominate when you are big. I notice that a lot of my peers at the bar tend to be around my height and the skinny ones probably weight only 150-160 lbs, I got about 30 lbs of muscle on these guys, and on some kind of psychological level I feel like I can fuck them up if they were to ever try to fuck with me.

P.S. Roosh I think you got the right genetics, you look pretty strong for a guy who drinks and stay out late chasing women several times a week, if you just stuck with a consistent gym schedule, bulked up your diet and protein intake, I think you'd get jacked pretty easily.

Post: #7

(08-30-2012 01:13 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  He is right on when he says that women in the U.S. are becoming more like men when it comes to how they select their sexual partners, it seems like they are all becoming more superficial or "visual" like men in wanting to hook up with the "hottest" guys. It will often work out that they will fuck the hottest guys and even have sex with them fully knowing that they will never get a commitment, the guy is just interested in sex, and is fucking other women, while they would very rarely tolerate such things from a less handsome man.

Yes, I've noticed this too. I find it most prominent among somewhat masculinized slutty women, often the type to hang with the boys or post on Jezebel. The more feminine girls don't go "OMG he's so hawwwt." They don't have these outbursts that guys do. Miley Cyrus, perfect example (find a clip of her talking to hear how mannish she is).

I also wrote a post awhile back noting how it's usually *not* the hottest girls who act this way - it's often the 6s, 7s and some 8s who do. I get the sense that these chicks are looking for validation of their own hotness, and they do that by hooking up with handsome men. The thinking goes, "see, I must be hot if I'm hooking up with hot guys!" To these girls, looks are great in and of themselves, but they're also awesome as evidence of their own hotness. They're tolerant of guys with great looks and mediocre game.

(08-30-2012 01:13 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  Anyways, a final point that I want to make is that beyond attracting women, you feel more dominate when you are big. I notice that a lot of my peers at the bar tend to be around my height and the skinny ones probably weight only 150-160 lbs, I got about 30 lbs of muscle on these guys, and on some kind of psychological level I feel like I can fuck them up if they were to ever try to fuck with me.

Yes. Like Roosh alluded to, even if getting bigger doesn't make you more attractive, which may be the case outside the Anglosphere, it will make you feel more dominant, and thus confident. And that will translate into better looks. We've all had times where we felt extra confident for one reason or another, and we reaped the benefits.

(08-30-2012 01:13 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  P.S. Roosh I think you got the right genetics, you look pretty strong for a guy who drinks and stay out late chasing women several times a week, if you just stuck with a consistent gym schedule, bulked up your diet and protein intake, I think you'd get jacked pretty easily.

I think Roosh would look great with more muscle, but it would take some work. IMO, lanky guys like Roosh can put on tons of muscle and still look aesthetic, if they can get the muscle on in the first place.

Post: #8

Being 'skinny' is something that can be 'corrected' by eating and lifting.

It's not like a multitude of other variables that can NOT be adjusted (skin color, height, etc). If you're self-conscious about being skinny and feel it affects you negatively, then go to the gym and eat big. After a year or so if you want to run a prohormone cycle then do that too.

Post: #9

Having a good body is better then having an average body. Being muscular is better then being skinny. I'm not talking about being a bodybuilder because that is a bit extreme, some girls will like that and some girls won't. I'm just talking about being skinny vs being athletic vs being muscular vs being big. Imagine yourself with 10-15 added pounds of muscle, a bigger chest, and bigger arms. Of course this will help!

I have the same body as Roosh, slim-athletic, but not big. If I dress in baggy clothes, no one can tell that I am in shape. However, if I dress in slim fitting clothes, girls notice, it helps me alot. Especially in America where most people are out of shape, I can be one of the few guys with a good shoulder to waist ratio, the "v" look.

Like Roosh explained in the video, girls want a hot guy, the hotter you can make yourself, the more girls will be attracted to you.

Sure, there will always be a few girls that like skinny guys, just like there will always be a few girls that like huge guys, but I guess the bottom line is.... - look as good as you can!

Having some muscles is better then not having them. Not only for attracting girls but also for your own confidence.

I think a big "x-factor" here is clothes and fashion. Are you dressing the right way to highlight and accentuate your body? If you are in shape, wear clothes that fit, allow your body to show through by dressing properly. Your clothes are a huge part of your look, your body is a big part of your look. Try to do the best you can with both, have a good body and dress sharp.

Post: #10

There is a difference between bulking and getting ripped, it's density and proportions. I see a lot of dudes at the gym with larger arms, chest and back... But no one checks them out.

Your shoulder should have a drop to your bicep/tricep area. You should see your abs without flexing. You should be able to flex your chest independently of your deltoids. You should be unable to touch any fat below your tricep or above your bicep when you flex.

When to feel like a "rock" that's the right density. Just being big isn't as good, I got fatty big for a short period after injury and it was useless. Dense muscle is 2x more attractive. Most meat heads at the gym can't tell the difference but women notice it in seconds.

Post: #11

(08-30-2012 12:10 PM)soup Wrote:  I'm starting to realize that where I am, in NYC, the girls aren't not like the rest of the country or even like they are in NJ.

There's enough variety of girls here that, sure, being built can get you an "in" with some, but in Brooklyn, I think a lot of the hipstery/punk/goth/fashion girls are looking more for pretty boys, famous people, skinny dudes- more artsy types. So, I try to play this up as much as possible. That's probably why the come Williamsburg in the first place.

It's an entirely different world from guido/B&T dance clubs- I don't do well at these at all, and the girls actually try to get into fights with me. Aggro guidettes are the epitome of everything that is wrong with women American women (except that some of them stay in shape). They are like men with vaginas and it is a huge turn-off for me. And a lot of them ugly as fuck.

I agree almost entirely with Roosh's video. The caveat is that there is a niche of women that do like that feminized skinny jeans hipster guy. The type of women that are into this sort of guy would equate jacked guys with being douchebags. It's like a reverse snobbery. And I've seen skinny hipster guys that probably get as much pussy as Roosh. They just have their market cornered.

Post: #12

There's no excuse to be skinny and not workout. I can speak from direct experience as I used to be very thin. The more muscle I put on the more attention I got.

Post: #13

I agree with mostly everyone that *some* muscle will only make you more attractive. Thus a bunch of guys would probably notice great rewards with their efforts.

I don't agree, however, that being ultra-buff is ever going to make you more attractive to the majority of attractive women (I can understand wanting to be huge merely for intimidation). I have a friend who is pretty huge and fairly ripped. Its true that sometimes girls will come up and squeeze his arm, yet these girls are usually not top quality (eluded to above) and it only happens every once and a while (they're not streaming over all the time). I think humongous muscles are a niche market, but the girls in this market you can probably snag as easy as cake (as he does).

Also, "skinny" is completely dependent on context IMO. If you are 5'6" and have narrow shoulders, "skinny" is going to make you look frail. If you are 6'2" and have broad shoulders, "skinny" may look completely different.

As somebody mentioned above, and I have read numerous times in other posts, girls love guys were are ripped (hard muscles). You don't even have to be that strong to be ripped, just have adequate muscle mass and a low body fat percentage.

Every time I'm at a pool here in Miami Beach, and there are extremely attractive girls with a guy, 9 times out of 10 they are with a handsome guy with low body fat percentage. That's basically it. So IMO being athletic and handsome is the ideal (who knew?!). Athletic can encompass a thin swimmer type or a more bulky football type, both who are athletic and low body fat (with a huge difference in muscle mass). When I see the kinds of dudes who look like they've juiced and have lifted for years and years are usually with mediocre girls at best.

I personally am working on lifting. I'm down to 165 on a 6' frame. Its literally as light as I think I can go. I wanted to get lean as possible before my SS program starts up again.

Post: #14

As a reformed skinny guy who, in a world without gyms would be 6' 3" 155, all I can say is get to the gym skinny dudes! You won't regret it at all.

You will get so many more looks just by having developed shoulders and chest muscles.

Post: #15

From what I've experienced, it matters. Before I got jaw surgery and lost a lot of weight and muscle mass, I noticed that when walking or standing, I would stand taller and straighter, complete with the alpha head tilt.

Post: #16

I used to be 6'4 and 135lb(no-style)(status) at 17, and I only got a little play do to height and status. Women were scared away whenever I took off my shirt. When I grew an inch and made it to 275(ripped)(a little style)(less status), women started to jock significantly more. Now I'm about 6'6 and 290(stronger,not ripped)(best style I've had)(less status) and I still pull the same quality, if not better than what I was able to pull at 275. I think that the idea that one deficient quality can hold you back is incorrect, because there are so many (bs) factors in attraction that the negativity associated of one of them can be beneficial to another. Example: 5'6 guy with short arm length has to pack on x pounds of muscle to look "jacked", 6'5 guy w/ lanky arms has to pack on 2x pounds of muscle to look as "jacked" as 5'6 guy.

Post: #17

I do agree with the video but do you guys think the increase in superficiality could also be due to the fact that most guys are fat fucks or sticks? Being in shape is a massive dhv by way of contrast.

Post: #18

(08-30-2012 09:24 PM)WesternCancer Wrote:  do you guys think the increase in superficiality could also be due to the fact that most guys are fat fucks or sticks? Being in shape is a massive dhv by way of contrast.

Nope. There's no shortage of guys who are fit, in any major city, if that's what a girl's after. I keep hearing this 'being fit* is a DHV' and that's so outside my reality it sounds ludicrous. Do you game chicks at Walmarts in Mississippi or something? Women are becoming like men, so their aesthetic preferences are stronger, and their penchant for non-committal sex greater.

*Not ripped or jacked, just not fat or skinny.

Post: #19

Is this only an American thing? Do girls in other countries consider huge muscles just as important?

Post: #20

In Balkans muscles also play big role in girls preferences.

Post: #21

(08-30-2012 03:40 AM)houston Wrote:  Caligula gave me a link to this in another thread. What are everyone's thoughts? I say you have to try A LOT harder in America if you're naturally skinny.

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/08/1...ectomorph/

Roosh also has a good video discussing this.

Roosh, I've been quiet impressed with your physique recently. One of the excuses I make for not travelling is that it will interrupt my workout program, yet you managed it. How do you integrate working out into your travel plans?

Post: #22

I'm happy that people are finally beginning to understand the primacy of physical appeal in seduction. It's so competitive these days in America that having game only makes up a fraction of the inputs that get you laid.

Girls in America decide whether they're going to fuck you mostly on how you look. That's just how it is and what I've come to realize. The only variable that has gotten me any significant progress with women is my muscularity and overall appearance.

Also, the depressing part is that average girls who dont even work out still expect the men who will approach them to be physically attractive. Hypergamy and such.

If you look "average" I guarantee you're not pulling ass in America. You really need to make it a goal to be the fittest guy in the venue you're at. I don't have trouble reeling girls in, but I encounter a fuckton of cockblocks from other big dudes. Ironically, most of my cockblocks these days are coming from other guys and not girls.

Post: #23

(08-30-2012 10:41 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

(08-30-2012 09:24 PM)WesternCancer Wrote:  do you guys think the increase in superficiality could also be due to the fact that most guys are fat fucks or sticks? Being in shape is a massive dhv by way of contrast.

Nope. There's no shortage of guys who are fit, in any major city, if that's what a girl's after. I keep hearing this 'being fit* is a DHV' and that's so outside my reality it sounds ludicrous. Do you game chicks at Walmarts in Mississippi or something? Women are becoming like men, so their aesthetic preferences are stronger, and their penchant for non-committal sex greater.

*Not ripped or jacked, just not fat or skinny.

Sounds like you must be living in a place with a strong fitness culture that is creating a "bubble effect" on this issue. Believe me, outside certain areas, WC is definitely right-fitness is most certainly a DHV.

Example- my build is very similar to Roosh's( a bit thicker in the chest)- a fit athletic build,flat belly, with a bit of muscle. Not "jacked" at all. In my area, that alone is enough to garner me a lot of female looks and compliments. I'm not saying there aren't any jacked or fit guys around-it's just that here they are such a small percentage of the male population. this means that those guys who are in shape look much better by comparison and get disproportionately more female attention. And if you're fit and over 35, you're even rarer.

Post: #24

Honestly, I think it comes down to more what type of shirt you wear. Back when I was heavier, I would wear shirts that were cut a way that accentuated my upper body and girls thought I was ripped when I was actually pudgy. Now that I have much lower bodyfat and denser muscle, I can pull out tighter shirts to show off my body.

The shirt is what makes the difference. There's nothing better than wearing a tight fitting v-neck with wide shoulders/lats that tapers down to a small waist.

Post: #25

The below is accurate. For some reason people believe you can't how off a six pack without taking off your shirt, simpy not true. If you have density you have large cuts. Your quads split in 4, your traps and biceps split, your chest isn't just big it's solid.

The way you accentuate it is with tighter clothing, it's fairly straightforward. Stop wearing cotton and start wearing slick fabric, silk, nylon whatever. Even at the gym if you have what I call "density" fitness, tugging on your shirt slightly should immediately show your cuts.

To be honest I disagree with skinny being a disadvantage, you're just not lifting enough. All muscle you gain is scary dense. You hould be able to hold a pull up, arms at 90 degree angle, in a gymnast like position for 2-3minutes that's when you're starting to get to freak territory, girls love it.

(09-01-2012 12:49 PM)Jackhammer Wrote:  Honestly, I think it comes down to more what type of shirt you wear. Back when I was heavier, I would wear shirts that were cut a way that accentuated my upper body and girls thought I was ripped when I was actually pudgy. Now that I have much lower bodyfat and denser muscle, I can pull out tighter shirts to show off my body.

The shirt is what makes the difference. There's nothing better than wearing a tight fitting v-neck with wide shoulders/lats that tapers down to a small waist.