Post: #1

There's a consensus on this forum that you should always be pushing for the bang, because, if you don't get it or get real close to it, there's a good chance that you'll never see the girl again. I agree with this wholeheartedly, but it was not always this way.

For a good bit of time I had a solid two-date routine that worked very well for me. I would spend the first date (and I mean drinks, not a dinner date) being flirty and forward enough to build attraction, but with enough restraint to create the illusion that the attraction was "just happening." I got very good at alternating between escalating heavily and then pulling back and qualifying her. Those first dates would end anywhere from a hug goodbye to third base (a few ended with me getting the bang on the first night), but I never pushed things too hard.

I did this for a couple of reasons. One reason was that pushing hard on the first date is often a war of attrition, where you have to fight hard over every inch of ground and that just takes too much damn time. The other reason was that I wanted to end things on a bit of tension and not rejection. I wanted her to think of the night as ending on mutual attraction that were weren't ready to go through with yet and not her stopping me in my tracks. To hear myself write that now, it sounds like some bitch talk, but for a long time it worked. We would both show up for the second knowing what was going to happen. All I would have to do was not fuck it up. I remember one girl who I hung out with on Thursday, the night ended with a make out. I invited her to come "hang out" that Sunday and she showed up with a change of clothes for work on Monday morning.

Getting a make out at the end of the night was almost always a sure sign that you'd get a second date, but it seems like those days are over. My question is this: when did it change? When did women stop giving men a second chance? This feels very new, as in the last two or three years.

What's been you guys' experience with getting to the second date without getting the bang?

Post: #2

Quote: when did it change? When did women stop giving men a second chance?

I started the game nearly 12 years ago. About 6 years in I noticed that flaking was going up and I was losing out on bangs by not being aggressive enough on the first date or same night I'd meet her. Each city has its own dating culture, but I do feel that DC, with its large inflow of Americans from other parts of the country, is a leading indicator for how things will be. I used to get a lot of "That's only in DC" comments, but I get fewer of those now.

Quote:it was not always this way

Culture and game are intertwined. If the culture changes, the game changes. I think it's easy to argue that culture changes much more rapidly in 2012 than it did in 1912. Back then, the way things were when you were 20 is how things were when you were 35. Now, in as little as 5 years you can get big changes as disruptive technologies (internet, cell phones, Facebook, online dating, text messaging) get tossed in every two years are so. It's like we're living in a laboratory headed by a mad scientist.

Post: #3

Flaking started to explode about 6 years ago. This also when MySpace, Facebook, texting and online dating took off. Coincidence?

Post: #4

While there have definitely been times where I banged on a second or even third date, it's always been that way of first date or bust. That said, I haven't been banging girls for more than a few years, so I couldn't notice a trend over a decade.

I'd like to hear what the older players say. I think girls behave this way because they have so many opportunities to fuck men, AND because they are unable to connect with them. Technology is a culprit in both of these. The electronic womb of constant contact with girlfriends impedes their willingness to engage with the people around them (eg chicks texting at a bar instead of talking to the dude next to them). Over time, the girl's general ability to interact with strangers is severely hampered. Thus the increased use of 'creeper,' and 'awkward.' That's what happens when you never hang with strange. Plus the girl power-misandry-career uber alles movement is at full blast.

The stats say that women are having fewer sexual partners than in the past. That may be true, but I suspect when they do have sex, there's less commitment involved nowadays.

2003: Myspace founded
2004: Facebook founded.

Post: #5

(09-02-2012 06:56 PM)basilransom Wrote:  The stats say that women are having fewer sexual partners than in the past.

Where'd you read that? Doesn't sound right

Post: #6

This is definitely a very recent development. I remember parking my game for a little while for an LTR, and coming out to a different world. Before that, I agree that if things ended in a make-out, you didn't even need to push for the bang. There was no reason to push for the bang, unless you were mad horny. There was an ease to the whole thing once you had a verified connection (a kiss, for instance). It was unheard-of to not get a second date if the first one went well. In fact, as long as you kept pushing the ball upfield, you knew you'd get another "first down." The three-date rule prevailed, and you were satisfied with a second- or third-date bang.

Nowadays, I go for the first-date bang even when I'm not that horny, with full knowledge that if I don't, I'm going to get flaked on. Even when I do score a first-date bang--and put it down like champ--I might still get flaked on.

Chicks have become dudes.

Post: #7

I went on a second date recently..I didn't get the bang due to purely bad logistics. Assuming a date went well in anglo countries. You should expect a bang on Date one or two.

Post: #8

(09-02-2012 06:52 PM)Juan Antonio Wrote:  Flaking started to explode about 6 years ago. This also when MySpace, Facebook, texting and online dating took off. Coincidence?

This is exactly when I'd place the beginning of it too. 2005/6-ish seems like the consensus. Bizarre.

Post: #9

(09-02-2012 06:32 PM)j r Wrote:  There's a consensus on this forum that you should always be pushing for the bang, because, if you don't get it or get real close to it, there's a good chance that you'll never see the girl again. ...

...What's been you guys' experience with getting to the second date without getting the bang?

The goal should be sex as soon as possible. This is never a bad strategy. But I have no problem with dating a few times first before sex, and in fact I expect it will not be on date #1, but this may be just my target demographics. I avoid your typical "white american swpl" urban chick. I prefer ethnic girls, girls who were born overseas, girls who aren't upper middle class, girls whose first language wasn't English, girls who may still live at home. These groups have a different outlook on life. And I like this outlook.

Still probably around 1/2 of girls that I have had sex with, the sex happened on date #1 or "date" #1. For the rest it was normally after a few. The all time slowest was 2 and a half months. She was slow and old-school. She had other qualities that made up for it.

Post: #10

I had 3 first dates this week, 1 bang.

The 2 that wouldn't bang, I feel pretty good about banging them on the 2nd or 3rd. I wouldn't consider them lost causes (I'm getting a lot of texts from both)

However, that might be due to the fact that I TRIED banging both of them. They both knew I was horny and ready to go, so they might be giving me attention for that very reason. If I had played the nice respectful guy I might be getting radio silence, but who knows? All three dates went well, I got heavy makeout session and groping from the two that wouldn't bang (both seemed like good girls, or at least sluts in a good girl phase)

So no, I wouldn't make a blanket statement like "the second date is dead". I would amend the statement to, "Let's *act* like the second date is dead"

Post: #11

some (college) girls 18-22 play hard to get even after the bang now. the top alphas are drowning in pussy, the beta majority begs for crumbs

Post: #12

And for all we know, waiting till the second date for sex might be the winning strategy in 10 years from now.

Post: #13

(09-02-2012 07:28 PM)Samseau Wrote:  And for all we know, waiting till the second date for sex might be the winning strategy in 10 years from now.

Shit. In 10 years, you'll be expected to bang a girl before the first date--in the fucking doorway, or the car, before you walk into the bar.

Post: #14

Yup. It's a different ballgame now. Remember that Facebook allows girls to collect reserves 24/7. We been through all this before on another thread. I counter this (also learned here) by having better first dates like gambling and shit like that. I remember back in the day a first date was either she falls in love with you or not. I find myself these days behaving like I'm hanging out with one of my buddies on a first date. I act like were long time friends just going to party it up until they start moving in on me. It works. Nice guy hoping for the kiss and second date isn't going to get it any more. I don't care this way is more fun but it seems like if she can't brag the date up to her friends it's a dud which is bad news for you nice guys out there.

Post: #15

I promise you in ten years you will have absolutely no motivation to put the energy into banging the girls you are today. Something will have to change to keep you in the game. For me it was hitting the road.

Post: #16

(09-02-2012 07:37 PM)Roosh Wrote:  I promise you in ten years you will have absolutely no motivation to put the energy into banging the girls you are today. Something will have to change to keep you in the game. For me it was hitting the road.

I don't get it. Do you mean stop trying to pull or get a girlfriend/wife?

I really wish I could see how old and where people live when they post. It makes a huge difference if I'm giving advice.

No second date in New Orleans?

No second date in Salt lake city?

No second date where?????? It makes a huge difference

Post: #17

The second and third dates are alive and well in my experience, which is dating late 20s to early 40s women in smaller cities. I don't doubt what you guys say about young women in major cites though.

I will say that I don't do lame traditional dates-dinner and movie types stuff with women I am just starting with. My dates mostly consist of us bar hopping. Sounds like my approach is similar to El Mech's- it's more like hanging out and keeping it loose and spontaneous as opposed to the formal, structured, almost ritualized traditional date.

I always physically escalate and push for the bang if I sense she is waving me in. If I don't get at least a good makeout session on the first date there won't be a second. I will drop her after the third date if I haven't gotten the bang, unless there are extenuating circumstances. Recently, most of my bangs have occurred on the first or second date.

Post: #18

I would say that in the United States, the second date is almost dead, but not quite. In some other countries, it is very much alive. Please bear in mind that in the United States, I only date foreign women, mainly Colombian. In other countries, I have had many second dates, virtually all of which led to sex. The girls, particularly in Colombia, say things like, "I never have sex on the first date" or "We may/will/probably will have sex tomorrow." On all of those occasions, I have had sex with them on the second date.

In the United States, I have had second or even third dates, but they are rare. If I have a third date and it doesn't lead to sex, I, of course, discontinue speaking to the girl. One time last year, I went out with a Colombian girl three times in Miami and it didn't lead to sex. The second time we went out, she brought along a Cuban friend who actually looked better than the Colombian. The Cuban girl had a guy with her who was normal looking and should be doing better than most of us, but I am quite sure he is struggling. Someone should tell him about the forum. In any event, this guy left me with the two girls and went home. The Cuban girl tried to pull the robbery by offering to give me a "ride." She decided not to take me when she found out I was staying about an hour away from where we were that night. I ended up not having sex with either of them, but at least I got a good laugh out of it. I, of course, stopped talking to the Colombian both because I had to leave Miami and because I got nowhere with her after three dates.

Post: #19

(09-02-2012 08:32 PM)Merenguero Wrote:  She decided not to take me when she found out I was staying about an hour away from where we were that night. I ended up not having sex with either of them, but at least I got a good laugh out of it. I, of course, stopped talking to the Colombian both because I had to leave Miami and because I got nowhere with her after three dates.

Wtf? That's when you call up a local motel and get a cheap room.

Post: #20

second date never ever works, but it also depends a little on what you mean by "second date". if you've been friends with or known a girl for a long while it can be different, and sometimes i've scored second time round after letting things simmer down from anywhere from a few months to up to a year. just keep a healthy skype/im/phone # roster and let them know you're still kicking. if they want it they'll come.

girls just have too much choice and you're struggling uphill against too many forces tempting her back down towards perma-availability.

at some point you have to know your limitations and realize that even game will only go so far. god grant me the serenity to accept the things i can't change, and all that.

Post: #21

(09-02-2012 07:50 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  [quote='Roosh' pid='261484' dateline='1346632630']
I promise you in ten years you will have absolutely no motivation to put the energy into banging the girls you are today. Something will have to change to keep you in the game. For me it was hitting the road.

I don't get it. Do you mean stop trying to pull or get a girlfriend/wife?
/quote]

I mean for getting laid. Ten years ago I was excited at going on dates with DC girls and getting laid by the third date. Now I wouldn't bother. You will gradually move on to other parts of the game or just other types of women entirely. Or maybe you move from night game to day game.

Post: #22

Around 2 years ago when I became serious about learning game, I noticed that things were changing. Before 2010 if I got a makeout on the first date, there was a high chance that things would go somewhere. My timeline was usually drinks, clubbing, bang. I was fine with this.

Post: #23

What puzzles me is how we're all in agreement on this, but no one else is talking about it or acknowledging it. You still see people getting into relationships of course. So how do you square the two - or simply, who are the boyfriends of cute girls? If 'the second date is dead,' are they milking their social circle for boyfriends, where girls are less flakey? Are they making boyfriends out of the players who bang them on one night stands or the first date?

I've always thought that Facebook and the like are NOT social networks. They are *tribal* networks - they only reinforce the connections that you've already made. Often the people with the most Facebook friends are the most insular. Social scientists also have noticed the trend of 'cocooning" where people spend more and more time in private surroundings, engaging less and less with strangers.

Post: #24

(09-03-2012 11:59 AM)basilransom Wrote:  are they milking their social circle for boyfriends, where girls are less flakey?

Based on nothing but my own anecdotal experience, I'd say that the majority of relationships are formed this way. Cold pick-up is and always will be a niche hobby, and it's leading increasingly less to sustainable relationships. People, and especially women as you alluded to, are becoming more and more insular. I blame technology and skyrocketing female narcissism.

Post: #25

(09-03-2012 12:24 PM)captaingeneric Wrote:  

(09-03-2012 11:59 AM)basilransom Wrote:  are they milking their social circle for boyfriends, where girls are less flakey?

Based on nothing but my own anecdotal experience, I'd say that the majority of relationships are formed this way. Cold pick-up is and always will be a niche hobby, and it's leading increasingly less to sustainable relationships. People, and especially women as you alluded to, are becoming more and more insular. I blame technology and skyrocketing female narcissism.

I think social circle has always been the leading source of relationships. But I get the sense that in past decades, it was eminently possible to 'serendipitously' meet a girl, in innocuous surroundings and start a relationship that way. You see all these allusions to it in pop culture, but I think it's increasingly a fantasy.

It's almost like a rape fantasy , in that they like it in theory, but if ever confronted with it in real life, they don't respond as warmly as their fantasy would suggest.

While there may be more formal pickup artists now, I have to wonder if people talked to strangers more before, shooting the breeze without the opportunity to text, which led to overall more relationships formed with strangers.