Post: #1

I'm surprised that I couldn't find a thread that deals specifically with the ins and outs of how looks and game are related in the search.

Inspired by Roosh's info on Eastern European, The Dude's post on guys who try to get laid online, and my own recent experiences on Okcupid wherein I've had drunk girls come directly to my apartment to fuck me without even meeting for a date, the goal of this thread is to parse out exactly how looks and game work in our increasingly feminized culture.

To start, I don't consider myself to be Brad Pitt handsome, but I've been told that I'm good looking, especially in the recent years since I've worked on letting my game flourish. I believe that any good looks I had that were being hidden by bad game are able to come out now. I do think that this translates in the pictures that I put up on OKCupid, and I think that these pics are mostly what the girls are going off of when they decide to come fuck me in the middle of the night without having met me.

So, here are a few thoughts on the looks vs. game debate:

No matter how good or bad you look, bad game will cockblock you no matter what. Maybe even more so for the good-looking man who is expected to be confident, but who's in-congruence is possibly frightening to girls.

Then on the other hand, we have to be a little more honest about the realistic possibilities of game, so here's something for the male-hamster: I believe that yes, game can help improve your relations with girls no matter what you look like, but the amount to which it can do so for a guy who isn't good looking is exponentially lower than what is possible for a guy with average to good looks. I would love it if someone could prove me wrong on this.

This is the case especially in America where women are becoming so masculinized that they are starting to care about a guy's looks almost as much as most men do women's. After reading what Roosh has to say about how things are in other parts of the world the conclusion that I'm drawing from this is that guys who are below average in looks but are urgently seeking to get with 8s or 9s should probably move to Poland or Ukraine and become rich, because it is going to be extremely difficult for them to get a shot with a girl of that quality in the states. It sounds like money is more important than looks in those countries.

Is that anti-game? I'm not sure. I do think that if a guy is kind of bad looking, but has such tight game that everyone thinks he's famous, he might do really well in the states. So, maybe the more worse you look in the US, the more necessary it is for you to attain fame if you want to bang 8-9s.

Here's my math for America:

Good looks < Bad Game
Bad Looks + Good Game < Good Looks + Passable Game
Bad Looks + Fame > Good looks + Passable Game

Post: #2

Even in Eastern Europe I got the girl because of looks.

Eye contact followed by a wink from her.
I followed up by making some small talk and getting her number.
Then when we met, I spat good game.

So good game is awesome and essential, but even in a relatively poor country the girls want a tall, handsome man.
She was glowing that when her friends had seen us together on the beach, afterwards they had all told her I was hot.

But the point is: many hot guys get less and uglier girls than many ugly guys with game or fame.
Just don't forget to polish your looks as best as possible.

Post: #3

And by fame, I include types of micro-fame like being a club owner or something like that.

Post: #4

Would you guys say that if you can game American women, the rest of the world is relatively easy?

Post: #5

(01-29-2013 02:26 PM)FourToTheFloor Wrote:  Would you guys say that if you can game American women, the rest of the world is relatively easy?

That's a question for Roosh.

It sounds like game has to be customized for wherever you are. So, cocky game is going to work on a Polska, but beta provider game might be better.

Reverse that for the USA.

Post: #6

Quote:the goal of this thread is to parse out exactly how looks and game work in our increasingly feminized culture.

I like the way you clearly stated everything out, there is just too much signal to noise ratio out there in obtaining solid information nowadays. Using our logic and parsing scenarios of "fame vs. wealth vs. power vs looks" allows us guys to utilize what we have or what we've been given to our best potential. I.e. if I'm sitting on a lump of cash, why buy another house servant or blow it on a Lambo when I can buy a city club and extend my influence directly in that regard (micro-fame). How much is it worth busting your ass for that extra 10K / year job when the other one affords you plenty of time for gym and hygiene maintenance and thus offers a higher balance and quality of life.

We balance these considerations in our minds implicitly all the time, but it's great to finally put it all out in the open and truly weigh our options before internalizing them as goals.

Post: #7

How do you define looks? Is it just a man's facial appearance? Or is it the totality of his physical appearance, including his height, weight, degree of musculature, hairstyle, clothes and posture? That's an important distinction, because while your raw facial appearance can't be altered except by plastic surgery, many of these other factors can be.

So even a guy who is short and ugly can go a long way by dressing well, working out, maintaining great posture, etc...

Emphasizing looks is a case of male projection. Since looks are of paramount importance to us, we assume they must be nearly if not equally as important to women. That's just not the case, even now when women are more masculinized than ever by our culture. If there were any truth to that, then we would expect that increasingly feminized men would also be more attracted to women for reasons besides their looks. Is anyone else noticing that trend? I'm sure not. Cultural trends ultimately can't modify our innate biology over such short-term time horizons. Men are still primarily visual in their attraction, women are much more attracted to power and status cues than anything else.

The fundamental male archetypes are strength and power, while the fundamental female archetypes are beauty and fertility. Being a strong and powerful man has almost nothing to do with how good looking your face happens to be. As long as you aren't Quasimodo looking, and you have otherwise maximized your physical appearance, looks will never be a problem for any man who has solid game/high status. As a man, as long as you meet a certain minimum attractiveness threshold (which I think 98% of men can meet if they maximize their appearance) then your looks will never disqualify you from getting any particular woman.

I will always maintain that game trumps looks.

Post: #8

(01-29-2013 10:54 AM)soup Wrote:  No matter how good or bad you look, bad game will cockblock you no matter what. Maybe even more so for the good-looking man who is expected to be confident, but who's in-congruence is possibly frightening to girls.

When I first entered construction I was a pudgy gentleman who wore glasses and had shaggy hair. I was for a lack of better words, a weird looking motherfucker whom didn't get much attention from females.

I bought contacts, construction shaped me the fuck up, and I started rocking the buzz cut and clean shaven look religiously.

I bumped myself up to a solid eight in the looks department.

I was already into game, but now it started to seem like even if I approached I was not getting rejected out right even if my game was initially bad. How I looked before most certainly would get me blown out if I did not try hard as fuck to break the ice.

Now I cannot even remember the last time I was rejected outright during an approach, no matter how lame my opener was or how under-confident I seemed at the time of approach.

With that being said, at the beginning I would start to grab numbers and became lazy with my game and figured because I was good looking now, that no matter what I did - even being needy, would get me laid. It didn't.

The in-congruency point is head on. While I realize that the times when my game was bad at opening were forgiven, it is mid game that women start to critically break you down, especially if you're attractive. Any sign of your confidence cracking and you'll get blown out because it does not adhere to the script they expect of an attractive man.

With that being said, ONCE you have met the girl for a date and such, your looks do work in favor if the vibe or sexualization of her did not go well. I haven't had one date not give me a second date after the first, no matter how bad or good the date went (and trust me, some went awful). Keep in mind the process up to getting their numbers and setting the date up went well, but prior to the changing of my looks, if my first dates went bad I rarely ever heard back from the girl, or even worse, I got friend zoned. I attribute them giving me the second date due to my looks.

I had one girl in particular after quite a splendid fuck session tell me that she thought I was weird on our first date but gave me a second chance because I was "really good looking."

Post: #9

I think with good looks you dont need much game. But you do need a certain baseline level.

Example is a good looking friend of mine who has his clothing stereotype down. Chicks literally line up for him.
But he hardly ever gets laid because hes a complete wuss. If he just got over his fear of rejection and started escalating his life could be a fuckfest.

Post: #10

Looks open.
Game closes.

WIA

Post: #11

The hottest girl i ever boned i picked up while looking and smelling awful. I was at muay thai, and the gyms sweat smell was on me bad, i hadnt showered yet. I also forgot my work clothes there, so i was in a sweaty tshirt, basketball shorts, dress shoes and dress socks pulled up high, i thought it looked more swagged out that way.
Anyway,, didnt matter.

However, i have to say that my best looking friend (tall handsome fit cocky) dresses like shit and, while he is an approach machine, has pretty bad game and frequently blows it without understanding why, just calling the girl a bitch. Despite all that, he gets laid waaaay more than anyone i know, lots more ONSs than i pull.

I feel like looks are probably are a huge advantage in pulling an ONS. Makes the whole process much smoother.

Post: #12

(01-29-2013 06:41 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  The hottest girl i ever boned i picked up while looking and smelling awful. I was at muay thai, and the gyms sweat smell was on me bad, i hadnt showered yet. I also forgot my work clothes there, so i was in a sweaty tshirt, basketball shorts, dress shoes and dress socks pulled up high, i thought it looked more swagged out that way.
Anyway,, didnt matter.

I don't think we can say that looks don't matter at all.

And looks can mean different things. There are looks that can't really be changed (like innate handsomeness, facial symmetry), and looks that can be altered (musculature, fashion, etc.)

Maybe you look better like that. Maybe she was in the mood to get fucked by a gym rat. So, I think it is presumptuous to assume that looks didn't matter or didn't have any part to play.

Post: #13

(01-29-2013 04:34 PM)scorpion Wrote:  How do you define looks? Is it just a man's facial appearance? Or is it the totality of his physical appearance, including his height, weight, degree of musculature, hairstyle, clothes and posture? That's an important distinction, because while your raw facial appearance can't be altered except by plastic surgery, many of these other factors can be.

So even a guy who is short and ugly can go a long way by dressing well, working out, maintaining great posture, etc...

Emphasizing looks is a case of male projection. Since looks are of paramount importance to us, we assume they must be nearly if not equally as important to women. That's just not the case, even now when women are more masculinized than ever by our culture. If there were any truth to that, then we would expect that increasingly feminized men would also be more attracted to women for reasons besides their looks. Is anyone else noticing that trend? I'm sure not. Cultural trends ultimately can't modify our innate biology over such short-term time horizons. Men are still primarily visual in their attraction, women are much more attracted to power and status cues than anything else.

The fundamental male archetypes are strength and power, while the fundamental female archetypes are beauty and fertility. Being a strong and powerful man has almost nothing to do with how good looking your face happens to be. As long as you aren't Quasimodo looking, and you have otherwise maximized your physical appearance, looks will never be a problem for any man who has solid game/high status. As a man, as long as you meet a certain minimum attractiveness threshold (which I think 98% of men can meet if they maximize their appearance) then your looks will never disqualify you from getting any particular woman.

I will always maintain that game trumps looks.

Ok, but being strong and powerful means different things depending on what tribe we are talking about here. In the NYC hipster community where there are a lot of models, looking like just stepped out of the Jersey Shore is going to get you labeled a douche, and this can be reversed for the hipster who goes to Jersey Shore, etc.

Yes, a guy who is short and ugly can go a long way with game, but how far can he go without supplementing with money or fame? Even at his physical best, and dressed as well as he can, is he really going to be able pick up 8-9s in America without the girl thinking that he's famous or rich? And, I do know guys who are fat and not attractive, but have achieved a moderate level of cultural fame who do walk around girls that who would get admission to Harvard if the boner test replaced the SATs.

I guess one of the conclusions that I'm coming to here is that it might behoove "ugly" guys to spend time getting their fame together, however that may be, then essentially wasting their time mucking around on OKCupid or trying to compete in other venues of game where looks are going to have the strongest impact.

And, yes there are an increasing number of guys who have accepted the shit that feminism has doled out and have convinced themselves that they like sub-par girls because of good personalities etc. I know a lot.

Post: #14

(01-29-2013 06:04 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  Looks open.
Game closes.

WIA

This! If you're in the top 10-20% I firmly believe the only element of game that matters is sexual state, aggressiveness, and escalation, IF you're good looking I've been told all my life Id clean up if I grabbed some sack. This is confirmed when I got out with a full no-fap sack and a belly full or vodka/tequila.

Soup, what are the quality of these girls who come over for bangs? Do they message you? I get messages but its always girls attempting to fuck several points higher. Do you chat a bit first or is it pretty fast?

Post: #15

(01-29-2013 07:01 PM)_DC_ Wrote:  

(01-29-2013 06:04 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  Looks open.
Game closes.

WIA

This! If you're in the top 10-20% I firmly believe the only element of game that matters is sexual state, aggressiveness, and escalation, IF you're good looking I've been told all my life Id clean up if I grabbed some sack. This is confirmed when I got out with a full no-fap sack and a belly full or vodka/tequila.

Soup, what are the quality of these girls who come over for bangs? Do they message you? I get messages but its always girls attempting to fuck several points higher. Do you chat a bit first or is it pretty fast?

Actually, I know now for a fact that I'm not in the range of hottest looking guys because I almost NEVER get girls messaging me out of the blue (and when they do, they are usually fat and/or ghetto). Maybe girls just don't do that kind of thing in NYC.

Every bang I've gotten off OKCupid was initiated by me. I send out the first message in every case. Chat is curt. I get them offline as soon as possible (check the OKC thread for all of this).

What do you mean by "I get messages but its always girls attempting to fuck several points higher" ?

Post: #16

(01-29-2013 07:08 PM)soup Wrote:  

(01-29-2013 07:01 PM)_DC_ Wrote:  

(01-29-2013 06:04 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  Looks open.
Game closes.

WIA

This! If you're in the top 10-20% I firmly believe the only element of game that matters is sexual state, aggressiveness, and escalation, IF you're good looking I've been told all my life Id clean up if I grabbed some sack. This is confirmed when I got out with a full no-fap sack and a belly full or vodka/tequila.

Soup, what are the quality of these girls who come over for bangs? Do they message you? I get messages but its always girls attempting to fuck several points higher. Do you chat a bit first or is it pretty fast?

Actually, I know now for a fact that I'm not in the range of hottest looking guys because I almost NEVER get girls messaging me out of the blue (and when they do, they are usually fat and/or ghetto). Maybe girls just don't do that kind of thing in NYC.

Every bang I've gotten off OKCupid was initiated by me. I send out the first message in every case. Chat is curt. I get them offline as soon as possible (check the OKC thread for all of this).

What do you mean by "I get messages but its always girls attempting to fuck several points higher" ?

Soup, basically what you were saying but not fat/ghetto, just girls id consider a few points below me.

Post: #17

(01-29-2013 06:47 PM)soup Wrote:  

(01-29-2013 06:41 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  The hottest girl i ever boned i picked up while looking and smelling awful. I was at muay thai, and the gyms sweat smell was on me bad, i hadnt showered yet. I also forgot my work clothes there, so i was in a sweaty tshirt, basketball shorts, dress shoes and dress socks pulled up high, i thought it looked more swagged out that way.
Anyway,, didnt matter.

I don't think we can say that looks don't matter at all.

And looks can mean different things. There are looks that can't really be changed (like innate handsomeness, facial symmetry), and looks that can be altered (musculature, fashion, etc.)

Maybe you look better like that. Maybe she was in the mood to get fucked by a gym rat. So, I think it is presumptuous to assume that looks didn't matter or didn't have any part to play.

The point was on style and clothing, specifically. I know other guys have noticed this too, sometimes when you feel like youre unpresentable, you get surprisingly good results.

Post: #18

(01-29-2013 07:01 PM)_DC_ Wrote:  Soup, what are the quality of these girls who come over for bangs? Do they message you? I get messages but its always girls attempting to fuck several points higher. Do you chat a bit first or is it pretty fast?

OKC hypergamy is alive and real.

Post: #19

"looks don't matter" is the seduction community's biggest lie. whether it's marketing hype or helpful blindness, it really says something when a guy who hasn't read a single ebook and is doing his first cold approach can potentially outplay a guy who been associated with the community over a half a decade.

we are told by gurus that women are not visual creatures yet anybody with a decent amount of field experience is shocked to realize how much they are. much talk is made about being "alpha"... yet what is more alpha than being genetically alpha?

overall the attraction equation for north american women is fame>looks>game>money, i believe. 75% of a cold approach comes down to 1) is she even available, 2) how does your appearance stack up. after that it's game on.

now i might come off as bitter about this truth. i'm not. rather, i'm bitter that i was denied it. i'm bitter that i was denied the opportunity to have realistic expectations from the start, but more importantly i'm bitter that i was denied the know-how to improve myself in this respect where possible. looks-wise i'm quite middle of the road (5/10?). my height is bad (5'6"), though i have a passable face. i feel i'm precisely the kind of guy who would benefit greatly from advice on how to maximize my appearance... advice that the community has not adequately provided. i'm only learning about weightlifting & nutrition at the ripe old age of 27. but imagine what kind of body i would have now and would have had over the years if i had been properly instructed about it at 22, the age at which i first heard about the internet pick up community, rather than keyboard jockeying it up and poring over endless routines and quips while looking like a manboobed marshmellow. oh well, it's better late than never - i can't wait until i'm done with this bulk and get on a cut. i can finally give my shitty skinny-fat build the finger.

if you are irredeemably ugly then accepting the importance of looks can be a tough pill to swallow. however if you're not and you have some wiggling room yet can come to peace with your limits then it's as helpful as any truth is worth knowing.

Post: #20

I am mixed, sort of Asian looking. As a test, I changed my profile pic on Okcupid to this dude and my response rate shot up 1000%. I had girls messaging me before I even messaged them and girls that had turned me down flat was not acting like little girls.

AND, I consider myself, about 80% as good looking as this guy except I am not white

Post: #21

(01-29-2013 04:34 PM)scorpion Wrote:  The fundamental male archetypes are strength and power, while the fundamental female archetypes are beauty and fertility. Being a strong and powerful man has almost nothing to do with how good looking your face happens to be. As long as you aren't Quasimodo looking, and you have otherwise maximized your physical appearance, looks will never be a problem for any man who has solid game/high status. As a man, as long as you meet a certain minimum attractiveness threshold (which I think 98% of men can meet if they maximize their appearance) then your looks will never disqualify you from getting any particular woman.

please stop with this utter bs

Post: #22

Bodmon - dude you are not a 5/10, I think you are being way too harsh on yourself. Also you are young at 27 and have time to change things you don't like about yourself. I say forget about getting cuts, try and bulk up as much as you can. I firmly believe women want to be with a "man" that can protect them, primal instinct and all that jazz.
Also I will remind you that we are not in a normal environment, we live in a city that caters to women. Get on a plane my friend and go visit greener pastures.
Looks are important because we live in a shallow world, a guy that is considered good looking will get more leeway with women. However, this is only one side of the coin and this is were the other factors come in to play like status, money, clothes, build etc.

Post: #23

@bodmon Look at the stuff Style (Neil Strass) did to improve himself. I would say from your description of yourself he would be a very close match.

Check out Rules of The Game.

Post: #24

Bodmom, "advice that the community has not adequately provided" [maximizing apperance].

You must be joking. The Lifestyle section is bustling with information. Weightlifting, improving libido, losing weight, and style. Its an incredible resource, what a misinformed statement.

Post: #25

(01-30-2013 12:32 AM)_DC_ Wrote:  Bodmom, "advice that the community has not adequately provided" [maximizing apperance].

You must be joking. The Lifestyle section is bustling with information. Weightlifting, improving libido, losing weight, and style. Its an incredible resource, what a misinformed statement.

I don't think you read his post. He acknowledged that stuff already in the post. He's mostly talking about the PUA advice from 5 years ago that didn't focus on lifestyle, instead focused more on routines.