Post: #1

Okay I'm looking for a unifying way of looking at game and social interactions. I had the thought of imaging the perfect social dynamic and working back from there to see how our current society compares to that.

Imagine if every guy and every girl dropped all the pretensious bullshit and just pursuited what they really wanted. If people were not hiding behind their own fear, what would that look like?

Say you were at a bar. There would be no bitch shields. There would be no clicky groups. Everyone would be easily approachable. In fact, girls would be approaching guys. Actually there wouldn't even be approaching, as people would just pair up until they were ready to move on to meet new people and exchange numbers. It might look something like speed dating. Except that speed dating is a highly organized event, and people are being babied.

Actually, there might still be groups of people, perhaps taking a break from the one on one interaction (and bangs in the bathroom). But the groups would be very fluid. If one member wanted to leave to spend the rest of the night with a stranger, the remaining people in the group would be 100% okay with that. Because they themselves would probably meet other people. There would not be resentment like "why did she ditch her friends to talk to him?". Everyone would recognize that we are here not to hide in familiarity but to learn new things and have new experiences with new people.

The reason I think it might help to imagine this ideal scenario is because everything is else can then be looked down upon as simplistic and inferior. You can then see the negative effects that group mindthink and insecurities have in social settings. And you can also take advantage of the lack of momentum of people in general.

If we were to compare the social world to atoms, a PUA would be like a highly energized and free floating electron or ion, bouncing from atom to atom. While cliques would be represented by densely packed nuclei with the potential of reacting with the electrons floating, but generally just doing nothing.

Post: #2

These kinds of tricks can be useful.

When you are at the bar, imagine that nobody else exists in the room except for you in the girl.

Now, when she comes in to your proximity, you will be able to understand how meaningful it is even if she isn't coming up to you and asking your info etc.

Post: #3

Well, if you want to use that analogy, let's say women are Sodium ions (reactive), men are Chloride ions (smelly), and the electron is the penis. In your ideal social interaction at a bar with all these atoms sure you'll get everyone to pair off and make salt, but you're still going to be left with a fuckton of Chlorine floating around, repelling each other with their little electron dicks. Because too many sodiums are unstable and heavy isotopes.

Post: #4

(08-06-2013 12:25 AM)kavakid Wrote:  If people were not hiding behind their own fear, what would that look like?

It would look like 80% of the women would be "pairing up" with 10% of the men, and since there aren't gamers in the scenario it would be
the 10% best-looking/highest-status. Then 20% of the guys would pair up with the remaining 20% (fat/unattractive) girls. The other 70% of guys would be standing around holding their dicks in their hands. Wouldn't be pretty.

Post: #5

If we were to compare the social world to atoms, a PUA would be like a highly energized and free floating electron or ion, bouncing from atom to atom. While cliques would be represented by densely packed nuclei with the potential of reacting with the electrons floating, but generally just doing nothing.
------------------------------------------------------
I like to use analogies but that is Too much.

Maybe you like to analyze things too much instead of taking it as it is?
If you try to analyze things in dating, you will be digging a deeper hole.

You are talking about ideal world that will never happen. People will totally agree with you when you say something like that And they will go back to the way it was. Don't try to change the world.

Plus, you think you are different from Average Crowds. I bet you are acting Just Like them.
If not, you will be very lonely already and looked at as a retard.

Post: #6

(08-06-2013 04:25 PM)Vaughn Wrote:  

(08-06-2013 12:25 AM)kavakid Wrote:  If people were not hiding behind their own fear, what would that look like?

It would look like 80% of the women would be "pairing up" with 10% of the men, and since there aren't gamers in the scenario it would be
the 10% best-looking/highest-status. Then 20% of the guys would pair up with the remaining 20% (fat/unattractive) girls. The other 70% of guys would be standing around holding their dicks in their hands. Wouldn't be pretty.

a guy too steeped in game theory would write your post. in a perfect social vacuum everybody gets laid

Post: #7

(08-06-2013 01:47 PM)soup Wrote:  These kinds of tricks can be useful.

When you are at the bar, imagine that nobody else exists in the room except for you in the girl.

Now, when she comes in to your proximity, you will be able to understand how meaningful it is even if she isn't coming up to you and asking your info etc.

I like this.

I think this ties into something I've been doing and thinking about a lot lately without much realizing it or knowing how to put it into words. There was a body language video on here somewhere recently that some of you probably remember - the one where they put all the men and women in a room and observed their interactions. Well, in that video, they talked about how women give subtle cues when a man walks into a room. So while the man thinks he's chosen and pursued her (as does she), it is almost always actually the woman who selects and initiates; it's just so subtle and even unconscious that neither party knows it happened.

This made me think about the energy and effort men put into game and how a lot of it is completely unnecessary as long as a guy is somewhat desirable. When a guy enters a room, he usually looks for the best-looking target and then tries to figure out how to get her to notice him, especially if he's deeply entrenched in improving his game at the time.

But in reality, he should be looking for the best-looking woman that is already cueing him - this will minimize the effort he needs to put out DRASTICALLY, and also radically increase his chances of success.

But how does he know what the cues are if a lot of this stuff is subconscious?

Well, some are obvious and openly discussed, but the mindset I've been keying into lately is this: If I walk into a room not purposely looking to meet a woman (by just going without a goal or any pressure) and I simply notice some girl, it's highly likely (at least by my current thinking) that it's because she's already cueing me, even if I don't know how she's doing it. I mean, if you think about it, a woman even glancing at you is often a cue because most women avoid looking at men they don't know, especially in nightclub situations, as they don't want to invite an approach.

So that's it. If I "naturally" notice a woman, it's because she wants me. Extremely liberating, actually.

I then just wait for her to be within talking distance, which is something she'll usually orchestrate if I ignore her for awhile and something better doesn't present itself. Meanwhile, me ignoring her multiple cues gets her confused and needy on a subconscious level, and finally on an even conscious one, and she starts becoming more obvious about them, like trying to catch my eye every time I turn my head her direction and repeatedly exchanging a knowing smile when our eyes meet. At this point I just raise my glass or give her a smile and then look away, seemingly indifferent. So it's just a brief recognition and then dismissal.

I let things go on this way, and finally, when I think I've stretched it out to the point of possibly losing the interest and opportunity completely, I either walk over to her to introduce myself or raise my glass again and gesture to inquire if she wants to join me for a drink (if she hasn't already maneuvered into my vicinity on her own).

It's all a real subtle dynamic and interesting powerplay, but it's all very intoxicating too because by the time I acknowledge and make my move, she's extremely attracted to me, as she's been trying so hard to get my attention. And I've also been thinking back on all my history with women, here in Asia and back in the states, and it's occurring to me that most of my "hookups" over the years, especially the most passionate ones, all played on this same dynamic quite a bit, even if I wasn't as observant about the process as I've become lately.

It also explains a lot of what I was talking about earlier this year of how easy approaches become when you intuitively understand sexual energy and know how to read women and the fun little "hug game" I was experimenting with for a while as an icebreaker (but in such a way that it didn't come across as creepy or needy) - not sure if any of you even remember that, but I think the reason that counterintuitive ploy was working for me was because I was only doing it to woman I felt a certain "vibe" from, which probably meant they were the ones giving me the strongest cues.

And, of course, really maximizing this dynamic or process or whatever you want to call it would necessitate a man doing the usual stuff we talk about to make himself as desirable as possible, so as to get more cues from more women in the first place.

Anyways, not sure if I'm coming across as babbler here. I don't usually contribute to game philosophy stuff here on the forum but this is something that's really been on my brain a lot lately. Maybe I'll talk about this again later after I play with and think on it a bit more.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #8

dupe

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #9

Girls ARE pursuing what they want. The bitch-shield and all that crap is directly for the purpose of getting what they want. When they go to clubs, what they want is to gain other people's approval and validation. They aren't expressly looking to go home with ANY guy, alpha or otherwise. The more guys pursue them, the more social gratification they get. Why would they ruin it by going home with just one guy?

Of course, that's where game comes in. By approaching without making it look like you're interested, you single yourself out and make yourself a candidate for something more than just that.

Post: #10

Nice post, BeyondBorders.

In buddhism and physics there is a goal which many people are seeking. Its peeling off all the layers of illusion and preconceptions to find what is really happening on the most basic level.

I believe that for a brief period in the 60's and possibly the early 70s, the social dynamic reached a sort of perfection in which "free love" was available. Whether there were enough girls with shaved armpits for your taste is another question. But the fact is that for whatever reason, many of the rules seemed to disappear. As my 65 year old woman friend puts it "I had sex because that's what people were doing".

So now I am starting to think that just like in Physics and Buddhism, we need to Un Learn. What we think are the hard and fast foundational principles may not actually be what we they think they are.

Since so much of the results in the external gaming environment is effected by your internal understanding of it (inner game), this is certainly a practical thing to put time into considering. After all, the strongest frame almost always wins at the end of the night. And people's response to you are to a surprising degree dependent upon what you expect them to be...

What is the difference in mental frame between:

1. a crazy bum wandering off the street into a bar full of beautiful women, picks his nose in front of everyone, and asks them to sleep with him or give him a sandwich.
2. a PUA who, unshowered and unshaven with smelly clothes, tells a girl he will buttfuck her if they go back to his place.

#2 might get a positive result at the end of the night. But what is the difference? Both of them have almost equally near-perfect frame control . The difference is most likely calibration. One of them, the PUA is most likely slowing down or speeding up his level of frame change to suit the audience. The PUA at first is the anonymous guy getting a drink. Then he is the regular guy making small talk. Then he is the don't give a fuck player whispering sweet nothings into her ear.

Whereas the bum is just the obnoxious / make a scene bum from the getgo to the end.

In atomic physics the PUA might be a free electron smoothly matching its speed and orbit to pair up with a positive ion or proton (the girl or the social group)

From wikipedia:
In the case of physical ionization of a medium, such as a gas, what are known as "ion pairs" are created by ion impact, and each pair consists of a free electron and a positive ion

Whereas the bum would be more like an out of control electron crashing into the atom core or missing everything all together because the speed is just not matched to the target.

Now consider this:

If the bum adjust his rate of frame change ever so slightly, he can probably still get the girl. He just needs to be more anonymous at first, more like the PUA. Maybe he doesn't have money for a drink. But he knows the name of the bartender and says hi. Then he starts up a conversation with the girl next to him about the art he creates with his stolen shopping cart (while picking his nose). If she is the artsy type, then its just more incremental frame change to seduction.

If he were an electron he would be making a perfectly calibrated landing.

What is going on in the girls head? It might be easier to think of her as an ion or proton. The proton is simply there and the electron found it by calibrating his speed and trajectory. He was able to make his frame (electron) meet with her frame (proton). You have to understand that in atomic physics there are great distances involved. Just like in real life, people's frames have great differences.

(keep with me here....)

And usually the frame with more kinetic energy (electron) slightly leads the other frames (protons). People like to attach and follow the mind frames of others if they are stronger/more energetic and calibrated close enough for there to be a smooth pairing.

People like to follow (atomically pair up with) those worthy of following, who they are able to follow (calibrated, not on different trajectories).

Even the greatest PUA with silk suit and lamborghini out front in Valet will fail to get the girl if she:

Is on a trajectory too different from his. Perhaps she is getting out of the bathroom to meet her parents at the door and walk to the car. she has to get up early for a plane flight. It's just almost impossible for the guy to get more than a phone number. He is almost like the bum as far as trajectories are concerned.

Perhaps what I am getting at now is almost like taking einstein's relativity and applying it to dating. It's the same universe....

Post: #11

If your frame is stronger, you can get away with almost anything. But she has to be able to readjust her frame to yours. If you are moving too quickly and uncalibrated, she simply won't be able to do it. If she tried to, it would destroy her frame completely. Most people aren't willing to go that far. For example, if that bum was 100% believing he was THE MAN, she is still not going to change her frame because the BUM is moving too quickly and uncalibrated. Her frame just can't adjust quickly enough. She can't redraw her frame to include the bum and her friends approval in the same frame. Slow the bum down a bit, and calibrate him a bit, and its possible. She can follow him.

She wants to believe in what he believes in 100%. She can rebuild her conception of reality fast enough to match the rate at which he is changing that conception of reality.

Girls and PEOPLE in general (including men) are wired to value frame control so highly. Why? Because in many situations there is frame chaos. Look at Egypt right now. In war and revolution, those with the strongest frame have a major advantage. But they also need people to be able to follow that frame.

Post: #12

Now to come full circle to the beginning of the post.

Why imagine a sort of PUA paradise where every girl is open and friendly to every guy? Where her social circle accepts him and she can leave with him (to fuck in the bathroom) if she wants. Where everyone in the venue is pairing up nicely and calibrated.

Two reasons:

1. It's the best frame to have (that people are meant to associate freely and have sex freely).

2. It might just be the closest to our natural state, once we peel off all the frames that have been piled on us by our current social paradigm.

Once you understand this, all the complications people add seem really tacky. And its much easier to control your frame.

Post: #13

I'm still thinking about this..

I had a partial E=MC of game but it got lost in my imagination.

I need to meditate on this. I will be back to this thread.

Looking forward to reading all of it in the morning.

Post: #14

The more you're in the game you realize that everybody's fucking everybody else.

Come out & play.

Post: #15

dupe