Post: #1

In my quest to complete Roosh's 100 approach program, I thought I would talk about the biggest distraction I have had so far, online dating. As of now, its Tinder. The aggravation and frustration that online dating often gets me to a point of just saying fuck it all, I am taking a break from women. I just had that this week where I deleted Tinder off my phone. I realized that it was 'stunting my approach growth.'

I started day gaming in June this year, and have only done about 50 approaches in 2.5 months, terrible for where I live, NYC.. I should be doing about 30 a week, or more. But here I get wrapped up in Tinder, waste all of my precious time using it, and not having what I call 'success.' To me success is creating a continuing uncommitted sexual relationship, with someone that treats you extremely well. What I found was that online dating was sucking all of my time up and keeping me from having real connections with women, and from meeting good women. In my experience with online dating over the last three years, with intermittent breaks and GF's along the way, I have discovered a few things I want to share here;

Lower quality women

Online dating for me yields lower quality women. What is a lower quality woman? To me its a woman that doesn't get hit on a lot, on the street, at work, etc. She doesn't get much attention from men. She might be attractive, but usually not the case, not more then a 7 tops. She is probably well educated, has a good job, is boring as shit and uninteresting. She is your typical American women who watches Bravo and Law & Order every night. Surprisingly, this is her entire world view. She probably loves sex, but other than a straight bang there is little else that you can say 'damn' about this girl.

Women who are looking for the one

Online dating helps relatively common women fulfill their dreams of marriage and babies. Depending on where you live, this range of women looking for this is 25-35. But they all want to be in the stupid Match.com commercial. To me, the idea that 'people just use this for sex' is an urban legend. I am a fairly attractive guy. I push for first date sex all the time. 95% of the time with online dating I get shot down. They all want the romantic story, wait 5 dates bullshit. They all want to tell their friends they are dating this amazing guy. They all want to be wives. They all want it with minimal effort.

Early Shit Tests

My theory is that with online dating, women already think you are a little weird before the first date. And they might not think that highly of you, even when they meet you. Subconsciously they probably think you are a pussy, for using online dating. So instead of just relaxing and having fun with a cool guy, they sit across from you and wonder if you are a serial killer. They are formal. They are not impressed with you, you actually havent been able to impress them yet. Then what I have noticed is about half of them shit test. This can be with crass words, inane ridiculous stories, talking shit about you, saying stupid shitty things. Or they are late. Or they just like to act like a bitch. When they do this I try to get them to pay for the evening.

Pictures lie

Self explanatory, but bearing any beta tendencies, I can fall in love with a girls pictures and fantasize about how awesome she is and how she will be perfect. But this is all bullshit. most of the time pictures lie, and they look weird. Have some weird face, crooked teeth, stained teeth, trollish features, on and on. Then its apparent why they probably dont get hit on much. I am sick of planning my evening to meet up with a troll. Usually if this happens I suck down the drink and leave, and try to get her to pay. Tinder doesn't allow you to see the body so I often ask them to send me a pic beforehand so I can confirm I am not seen meeting a fatty.

Dates

Online dating often creates unrealistic expectations of going on dates. Dates meaning some formal bullshit that includes eating and some dumb event like walking in a park, etc. A movie would actually be ideal because you could watch a new movie you want to see and you dont have to talk to her, and maybe even get an old fashioned. When you watch these awful Match.com commercials its always a couple in an Applebees somewhere. No thank you. We probably eat differently and I am not interested in dropping $100 on chicken strips.

Makes you Unsocial

Online dating makes you a less social person. Point and click, point and click, point and click. Meet, talk for two hours. Point and click, point and click, meet for two hours. Do again, do again, do again. The time it takes on dating sites could be better spend; going to the gym, making more money, having sex, day gaming, etc etc. Why dont you go out on the street and get to know your neighbors?

**I used to work with one of the largest dating sites. Do you know what their number one metric is?? Its guys, on the site, for hours and hours late at night, all night. WAY more than women. Men, of all ages and backgrounds, spending hours and hours on the site, looking at pictures and probably beating off. Their "Time on Site" metric was through the roof, for men.. at night...

Flakes

Girls flake all the time with online dating. They are late. They postpone or change the time. They dont counter offer with new times to meet, they wait for you to ask. They are crazy. They are Bravo fans. They are boring good girls. Etc etc. I have always had more flakes with online dating, and many many more than day/night gaming.

Time Suck

I am in business. My time is very valuable. When I waste it, I waste my life, and more importantly, I lose money. Constantly checking statuses, looking at profiles, messaging, meeting with trolls, fuming after meeting with said trolls saying fuck this shit, and on and on.. Its all a giant waste of time. And I am not looking for a wife. And the search for companionship is much easier than this.

So this all comes back to how this could be improved. Day gaming and some night gaming results in more lays, easier lays, and surprisingly better women than online has ever produced for me. I dont know if they are better people, maybe they treat me differently because of how we first met? Women respect you immediately for having the balls to talk to them first in person. Second, they think you are cool, and its more fun to hang out with a hot girl you know is hot, that thinks you are cool, then a pants wearing tired corporate Bravo watcher looking for her next husband over waffle fries. I have experienced far fewer flakes, shit tests, and let downs. Its like when you set up the pins properly from the very start, they all fall down.

Post: #2

Agreed. Fuck online dating. Do real approaches. You'll get better quality girls with less attitude. You'll look more attractive to the girls too, because online dating is wimpy and beta, while day approaches are ballsy and alpha.

Online dating sites are overrun with beta guys who are afraid to approach and 6s or less chicks. Due to the number imbalance, these 6s start thinking they're 9s and start copping an attitude and get overly picky. It elevates them and lowers the guy.

With an online meeting, a female 6 will turn up get nose at a male 8. If this same 6 was approached by the same 8 guy on the street she'd shit her pants at her good fortune and probably fuck it up due to her paranoia.

Post: #3

Online dating is like fast food. Cheap, easy, and you always regret it later.

Post: #4

Had a partner that v wanted to start a company that used va's to do all of the back and forth. I still think it's a good idea.

Post: #5

Just the investment wasted in not being able to screen what doesn't suit you makes it not worth it.

Post: #6

I agree online dating is terrible, its basically unattractive/weird women who go on there to get their ego stroked because they get messaged by hundreds of thirsty guys. Unfortunately I think that online dating will keep getting more popular and soon could be the number one way for people to meet sigh

Post: #7

Its no secret that online dating is like a pig trough. Its sad when I read some of the better posters on here talking about +1's from online dating, I really think it hurts their game overall. I am a much happier person getting laid less but not dredging through the trash that is on POF/OKC.

The hierarchy goes: porn > online bangs > real world bangs

Post: #8

I agree.
However, disagree with one thing.

I think online game is highly effective in terms of minimising time. Whereas in the night game you need to do a lot of approaches and even then sometimes the venue is not on, online game is there 24/7, you can do it 2 am, or 5 pm, and sitting on the sofa. This means that you don't waste as much energy, and for people who work a lot, like always stressed people, this online game is much more effective than waiting until the "on" night for the club, which usually means eekend, or waiting for the friend to go out for a particular night, or running around for hours on the street after work, sometimes in cold weather in many cities. the good thing is you have interaction with strangers.

There is a reason why online dating sites are popular and making money after all.

However, yes, you should be aware of many flakes.

Post: #9

It sounds like you are exclusively dating white women.

Post: #10

Great thread.

There is an art to pulling a girl from online right to your house.

I've indulged several times. Something kinky about that I like.

Post: #11

(08-16-2013 06:23 PM)puckman Wrote:  I started day gaming in June this year, and have only done about 50 approaches in 2.5 months, terrible for where I live, NYC.. I should be doing about 30 a week, or more. But here I get wrapped up in Tinder, waste all of my precious time using it, and not having what I call 'success.' To me success is creating a continuing uncommitted sexual relationship, with someone that treats you extremely well. What I found was that online dating was sucking all of my time up and keeping me from having real connections with women, and from meeting good women.

This is why you have so much hate for it. You lost yourself in online dating and wasn't experiencing the success you wanted to. It is REALLY easy to get lost in online dating because it's so much easier to sit in front of a computer than go out and pound the pavement, and in this way a lot depends on self-control. I'm guilty of depending on online game too, but what I have found is that my online game only became more successful when I improved my REAL-LIFE game by taking a break from online and concentrating on day/night and improving myself.

Balance is key. Online game, daygame, nightgame all have their place. They are all tools to use in a toolbox where the goal is to fuck, love, and date.

Post: #12

I honestly don't get the hate here. Sure online game has its negatives--getting SIF'd, not improving your approach game, lower average quality. But the way I see it, if it's helping you satisfy your sexual wants, it's a good thing. If you find it too annoying to be disappointed by the occasional fatty or you can't get the quality you're looking for, then maybe it's not worth it for you, but I see nothing inherently wrong with leaving a profile up that will occasionally catch a few flies or firing off some messages that take 30 seconds each. Bottom line for me is it gives me an opportunity to get notches I wouldn't otherwise get with girls who meet my standards. Obviously if you sink too much time into it then it's a problem, but that's true of everything.

It's not all bad from a game improvement standpoint either. Using OKC has drastically improved my date game to the point that it's now one of my strong points. I believe that getting a first-date bang from online dating is significantly harder than if you've already met via an approach, so by getting good at converting OKC girls into immediate notches I now feel like it's a layup when I'm out on a traditional first date.

I still like the post though. You're very correct about the many shortcomings of online game. I very much consider it a supplement rather than a substitute for traditional game for many of those reasons.

Post: #13

Quote:Online dating for me yields lower quality women. What is a lower quality woman? To me its a woman that doesn't get hit on a lot, on the street, at work, etc. She doesn't get much attention from men. She might be attractive, but usually not the case, not more then a 7 tops. She is probably well educated, has a good job, is boring as shit and uninteresting. She is your typical American women who watches Bravo and Law & Order every night. Surprisingly, this is her entire world view. She probably loves sex, but other than a straight bang there is little else that you can say 'damn' about this girl.

A lot of guys who haven't dealt with them may not appreciate how difficult it can be to game these women, who absorb energy you put out like a half-deflated basketball. It can feel a little awkward to be playful with an energetic young girl, but trying to be playful with a bump on a log feels downright weird. While the playful energetic girl may require more skill to handle, the bland one requires a lot more raw effort. The upside of the bland girl is that simple persistence and a commitment to deliberate (but measured) escalation will often work. Question is whether it is worth the effort.

Post: #14

This is the first well developed online dating thread I found:

/thread-3248.h...ight=match

Most of the comments are about 3 years old but they are still spot on.

I think the pro-diversity argument is best.

Post: #15

A lot of women using online dating definitely have the angle that they're just "playing the field" and "seeing what's out there" and that any & every guy on must not have any other options.

In other words, it's a DLV for men, but irrelevant for them.

Post: #16

Gonna have to disagree online game has been great to me.

I'm not classically handsome, but some girls really dig my look while others really don't. Online dating definitely helps filter for girls that think I'm cute and are therefore already into me. Most of my online dates end in bangs pretty quickly and generally the girls are no better or worse than girls I meet elsewhere.

This is in NYC tho, ymmv

Post: #17

I have had some kinky good sex from girls I found on online dating sites.
I just used it as one more tool to get sex.... If your not doing well on day/night game its always a option.

Post: #18

Absolutely-- it's a tool in the toolbox. I wouldn't say "never do online dating" nevertheless the original post has a very good overview of its drawbacks.

Post: #19

Doing online dating exclusively is not good for overall game development.

But you can't really beat the ease, time, and money savings.

I log on once on a Sunday for about an hour to message new prospects, then once or twice during the week for about 30 minutes to respond to messages.

I bang most of them on the 1st or 2nd date and the girls are 5-7s. I only do drink dates followed by going to their place or mine. Considering when I'm out with these chicks they get eyed up and down by the guys in the venue, they can't be that bad.

The issue is the quality problem you've mentioned. Getting a really attractive girl off the internet is hard and it does get boring banging regular chicks after a while.

Overall, it's just another method of getting laid, not my favorite(day game is), but it works.

Post: #20

(08-17-2013 10:28 AM)Neo Wrote:  Doing online dating exclusively is not good for overall game development.

In a way it makes everything easier.

You have bitches numbers in your phone who you have never met. Some of them decide to show up to a bar next door to your place and start drinking w you.

You still have to game them, but basically they're down to begin with, so it's don't fuck this up game basically.

So I can see how it might not help in your game development. But it definitely helps get you laid. So...

Post: #21

Yes to all your points, but only for men who lack discipline and/or are using online game as a way to hide from meatspace approaches.

A man who uses online game as a crutch to avoid approaching is hurting himself by taking the easy way out. And it will be a time suck because he'll be sending lots of carefully crafted messages, stressing about it, checking it a lot, etc.

But if you're approaching and getting laid in real life, online game can be a useful supplement. I have a POF and an OKC profile. Once a week I will spam very similar messages to a few girls from the new list. Quality girls are often proactive and message the guys they like, because their inboxes are ridiculously jammed. I never message more then 3 times back and forth.

So overall I spend less than an hour a week for 5-10 highly qualified numbers. Critical success factors:

1) Have a great profile. A/B test various aspects of your profile, get good pictures.

2) Be disciplined and good at time/information management. Batch all your online dating tasks.

3) Make it 10% of your total seduction time investment. Online is just lead generation, your actual game has to be solid as well.

Black Dragon is my favourite writer on the subject:

http://www.blackdragon-blog.com/most-popular-posts/

Post: #22

Its another tool to be used, and it helps in certain ways.

It will improve your date game. Building the attraction, escalating, bouncing venues, getting her to your place can all be worked on at a fast rate due to online dating. Getting laid consistently will also help solidify your inner game.

It won't help on really any aspect of day/night game that is required to get a SNL or a number that doesn't flake.

But when you start getting that part down you will not have to worry about the date, because your date game is solid due to your online dating experience.

Post: #23

In my experience online dating is very hit or miss with some guys.

I'm better looking, dress better and have all the attraction ducks in a row for real world dating.
Yet i have pretty poor success on pof/okc. I can't even get a decent response rate from my profile let alone actual dates.
Mot of these dates end in a bang though.

My friend on the other hand has no game to speak of but he's constantly going on dates with girls from pof. He's getting friend zoned into next year all the time.

I guess this is how the universe balances itself out.

Post: #24

(08-16-2013 06:48 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  Had a partner that v wanted to start a company that used va's to do all of the back and forth. I still think it's a good idea.

That might work...the only problem is personality...you would literally have to come up with over 100 response messages for any kind of question she might ask...as well as KEY jokes/personality points about yourself that you would make a requirement to enter in the conversation.

Post: #25

Online dating is very unbalanced. 10 GUYS PER GIRL AND GIRLS WHO GO ONLINE ARE MIRE PICKY THAN IN REAL LIFE.Example in a city like NYC women get hit on all the time so what makes them go online? Its because they want a 10, and a girl can actually get a 10 online so most guys have little success.
conclusion:if you are the top 15% you will do good, less and you will do bad and when succeed will be friendzoned. The chicks always have another option around the corner.