Post: #1

Yesterday I got to talking with my instructors, and they pretty much told me that I'm going to be promoted. You guys feel ready?

Post: #2

I haven't started BJJ yet (starting in November), but I've been doing Muay Thai for a year and I did Tae Kwon Do for 5. Speaking from those perspectives, I can say that the promotions given are not typically for comparing yourself against others, it's about comparing yourself to yourself, but over time. I've seen guys promoted that are not as talented as some of the newbies, but they've shown a progression consistent with their (1) abilities and (2) dedication. Comparing yourself to others in martial arts is like doing the same with game: there is always someone better, and there's always tremendous room for improvement. Also, from a less "mental masturbation" standpoint, sometimes the instructor needs to promote you so you have more respect amongst the other students, and can help train newbies (newbies are more likely to listen if you have the markings of a higher rank, much like in the military).

TLDR; when an inch compares itself to a foot, it always comes up short. Your promotion is a comparison to yourself, not to others. Congratulations on the promotion.

Post: #3

I'm curious what everyone's belt rank is on here? I'm a white belt and only been training for 5 months, I have done standup for about 2 years now, mostly Kung Fu and Eskrima, but also some Muay Thai, I still feel really awkward and uncomfortable on the ground but I'm getting used to it. It's funny how awkward strikers are on the ground, and grapplers when they try to stand up and strike, LOL, I guess it's two different worlds. I hear different instructors and schools vary when it comes to belt promotions, I hear stories of some schools where instructors require guys to train a minimum of 3 times a week for 2 years and roll with higher level belts before they can get their blue belts, where other schools just require that you learn all the basics. Any how purple is an impressive rank and no doubt requires a lot of hard work and dedication, the fastest I ever heard or a guy getting his purple is 3 years, but this dude rolls every single day, and gets private lessons 2-3 times a week in addition to group classes.

Post: #4

(09-14-2013 08:19 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  I'm curious what everyone's belt rank is on here? I'm a white belt and only been training for 5 months, I have done standup for about 2 years now, mostly Kung Fu and Eskrima, but also some Muay Thai, I still feel really awkward and uncomfortable on the ground but I'm getting used to it. It's funny how awkward strikers are on the ground, and grapplers when they try to stand up and strike, LOL, I guess it's two different worlds. I hear different instructors and schools vary when it comes to belt promotions, I hear stories of some schools where instructors require guys to train a minimum of 3 times a week for 2 years and roll with higher level belts before they can get their blue belts, where other schools just require that you learn all the basics. Any how purple is an impressive rank and no doubt requires a lot of hard work and dedication, the fastest I ever heard or a guy getting his purple is 3 years, but this dude rolls every single day, and gets private lessons 2-3 times a week in addition to group classes.

I'm actually testing soon for level 1 in Muay Thai. I've been in almost 1 year, which is the average timeline for promotion.

Post: #5

(09-14-2013 08:22 PM)ryanf Wrote:  I'm actually testing tomorrow for level 1 in Muay Thai. I've been in almost exactly 1 year, which is the average timeline for promotion (I'm sick on my stomach nervous right now).

Interesting, I've about a total of 6 months of Muay Thai training, but was completely unaware that there are "ranks" or "levels" that fighters are promoted to. Is this something unique to the school/gym you train, or is this the norm for all Muay Thai? I don't train at a strictly Muay Thai school, but this is the first I've heard of testing for a rank within that style.

Post: #6

(09-14-2013 08:54 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

(09-14-2013 08:22 PM)ryanf Wrote:  I'm actually testing tomorrow for level 1 in Muay Thai. I've been in almost exactly 1 year, which is the average timeline for promotion (I'm sick on my stomach nervous right now).

Interesting, I've about a total of 6 months of Muay Thai training, but was completely unaware that there are "ranks" or "levels" that fighters are promoted to. Is this something unique to the school/gym you train, or is this the norm for all Muay Thai? I don't train at a strictly Muay Thai school, but this is the first I've heard of testing for a rank within that style.

If your school is affiliated with the TBA (Thai Boxing Association), then yeah, you would have level tests. In TBA, you start at level 0, after around a year you can test for level 1, after 2 years you can test for level 2, and around 4 years (and with your Instructor's approval), you can test for level 3, or apprentice instructor (Khun Kru). After that, the tests are more ceremonial, you can go to full instructor (Kru), and only the elite get to be promoted to master (Ajarn).

Post: #7

Blue belt, training for 3.5-4 years.

Definitely felt ready since it took me nearly three years to get promoted because I moved so often, trained at local MMA gyms without much instruction, and wasn't under a black belt for 90% of the time.

I ruined a lot of blue belts days who thought they were going to smash the new/visiting white belt. Hell, I had more experience than many blue belts by the time I ended up training at one black belt school long enough to be promoted.

At my original school you basically had to win the US Open or American Cup to get promoted, so I had a pretty high opinion of what skill a blue belt should be. We also rolled pretty bard, which a lot of bjj schools don't like, because bjj definitely attracts a lot of pussies. And with that, ill start my rant.....

I've pretty much quit BJJ the last 6-7 months. I doubt I'll be returning anytime soon.

Why?

I have some pretty major philosophical differences with where the sport is at. Mainly, a lack of takedown emphasis, bullshit like guard pulling, double guard pulling and buttscooting, way too heavy of an emphasis on fancy guard play as opposed to top game (position before submission), as well as reaping rules and no leg locks.

BJJ is great for a 1 on 1 fight, without a doubt. The Gracies beat the shit out of people down in Rio for years. However, now it has moved so far away from a fighting art/sport/whatever, and is just a straight up sport with very little practicality in the real world.

What good is being able to break arms, dominate people positionally on the ground, and choke them unconscious, if you can't get people to the ground? I've trained at probably half a dozen schools, and very few of them train takedowns.

Why is that? Because for one takedowns are hard, so a lot of people don't like to do them. And two is the current IBJJF rule set makes them unnecessary. Just watch Keenan Cornelius and the Miyao brothers matches. That is not fighting. It is literally worse than some straight up Karate katas.

If someone comes up and physically assaults you, especially someone bigger and stronger, you better have some decent takedowns, and be confident in them, to get that person onto the ground. That requires a lot of drilling repetitions, as well as live wrestling practice. Both of these things are severely under trained at the large majority of BJJ schools. BJJ without takedowns is like owning a gun but no bullets. It may be fun to play around with, but how the fuck are you going to use it if you need to?

For me, the old school Carlson Gracie style of takedown, smash and pass is what BJJ should be about. Not one dude backing away from another guy who is chasing him while dragging his ass on the ground like a bitch in heat. Not about inverted guard, 50/50 guard, fucking beirimbolos, and other fancy, non-combat effective guards.

Is BJJ still great for people to learn for self defense? Yes, but I feel the law of diminishing return starts to come into play after a few years, especially since takedowns are so naively overlooked in the large majority of current BJJ schools.

Here is what BJJ should be about, IMO:








Not about this:

Post: #8

(09-15-2013 02:12 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  I have some pretty major philosophical differences with where the sport is at. Mainly, a lack of takedown emphasis, bullshit like guard pulling, double guard pulling and buttscooting, way too heavy of an emphasis on fancy guard play as opposed to top game (position before submission), as well as reaping rules and no leg locks.

I'm just a white belt - been training about 2 years - and I agree with everything in this post. However, I still love BJJ and try and address these issues when I train by focusing by doing the following:

1. Take a wrestling class once a week.
2. When rolling and doing independent study, I focus on guard passing and top game. I'm very mindful about pressure in all top positions, and have been complemented about how "heavy" I feel even though I only weigh about 160.
3. Guard play - emphasis on sweeps instead of submissions - I try to get on top at all costs.
4. I don't really use gi handles or chokes, utilizing instead a clinching game based around over hooks and underhooks. I would train no-gi exclusively, but gi classes are the only option available to me at the moment.

Post: #9

Blue belt here, been training almost 3 years.

So, there are blue belts and then there are blue belts...

Some dudes come to roll casually as a way to blow off steam after work. And then there are guys who compete all the time and progress really quickly because they take BJJ seriously, drill a lot, think about it 24/7, etc.

Like Rio, I've bounced around many schools and have trained with some big names in BJJ. I've found that schools have widely differing standards for promotions. Most schools have no objective criteria to evaluate their students. They just promote them whey they feel they're ready.

Honestly, I don't know if this is good or bad because I'm not an instructor and I have a long way to go on the BJJ journey. But I for one would like to go through a rigorous program like that. It sucks to be 3 years in and still discover that I'm missing key details on basic positions because they were never taught to me systematically.

When I trained at Cyborg's dojo in Miami Beach, if you wanted your next belt, you had to learn a curriculum (including the entire tornado guard series) and you had to test to show it. Cyborg's school is full of killers. More than 50% are competitors and/or MMA fighters. And wrestling and no gi are big parts of the training.

On the one hand, I've been to schools where I make the purple and browns look bad. And then I've been to schools where the white belts are giving a run for my money.

Like Rio said, sport BJJ is maybe fun and a chess match, but it isn't exactly practical. If you get in a street fight with some guy 20 pounds heavier than you, you'd better be able to put him on the ground and control him. He's not going to double guard pull and play footsies with you.

That's the essence of the original Gracie Jiu Jitsu - self defense. I trained in California with an old school Gracie black belt under Master Caique and the classes were pretty much all self defense: take downs, take down defense, headlock defense from standing, choke defense from standing, etc. I pretty much learned to defend myself at that school, and it would be awesome to see more of that OG shit making its way into BJJ curricula.

There aren't any rules on the street, so I've always found it annoying that you can't do certain techniques and positions at a certain belt level, like foot locks, neck cranks, reaping the knee, etc. There's no IBJJF when some drunk fucker wants to clock you.

That's why I've always preferred submission grappling (no gi). It's more open. When I trained at 10th planet San Francisco, we wrestled a lot, worked takedowns all the time, and whatever belt you were, you could do any technique. With the exception of heel hooks because a spazzy white belt could really hurt somebody for life going for that one. Other than that, Denny treated us as adults who could train any technique as long as it had practical value.

To answer the OPs original question, I felt ready by the time I got my blue. But some days when I roll with guys who haven't been training very long and I have a hard time, I feel like I don't deserve it. But it just makes you work harder and play smarter to grow into that belt. Osu!

Post: #10

(09-15-2013 02:12 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  What good is being able to break arms, dominate people positionally on the ground, and choke them unconscious, if you can't get people to the ground? I've trained at probably half a dozen schools, and very few of them train takedowns.

Very on point.

There's obviously no real data but I think it's fair to say that 9/10 1-on-1 fights in the street (well clubs or whatever) wind up in a clinch and go to the ground.

Judo (obviously not a practical street fighting martial art but still) has a lot of interesting philosophy and technique on how you are already applying your ground game as you get into a throw or leg sweep.

Post: #11

(09-15-2013 05:21 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

(09-15-2013 02:12 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  What good is being able to break arms, dominate people positionally on the ground, and choke them unconscious, if you can't get people to the ground? I've trained at probably half a dozen schools, and very few of them train takedowns.

Very on point.

There's obviously no real data but I think it's fair to say that 9/10 1-on-1 fights in the street (well clubs or whatever) wind up in a clinch and go to the ground.

Judo (obviously not a practical street fighting martial art but still) has a lot of interesting philosophy and technique on how you are already applying your ground game as you get into a throw or leg sweep.

Yeah, there is no real data, but a lot of fights do end up in a clinch or on the ground.

And being a BJJ fighter, they should be able to take 99% of their fights to the ground, regardless of where they may or may not end up normally. First sign of aggression? Hit a double and put them on their ass.

That is what BJJ should be about in my mind. Fuck where the fight may end up, take it to where you want it to be, which is the ground.

Another part of my rant that I left out is that the guard IS an inferior position. You can be stomped on, picked up and slammed, hammered in the face with punches, etc. from there. Yes, a good BJJ guy can hook the leg to stop the slam and he can hold them in tight to protect from punches, but any rule set (IBJJF) that makes the guard a preferable, or neutral, position to be in is flawed IMO.

It is very important to have a solid guard, but you shouldn't rely on it as your go to position. If you get put on your back you need to know how to defend yourself, as Royce showed in the early UFCs. But with how the sport is now, playing guard is the most popular position. You get people racing to pull guard, people pulling guard at the same time and butt sliding and scissoring, REFUSING to come up on top and pass. This shit is useless for anything other than a sport BJJ competition.

BJJ is rapidly moving the way of Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Kung Fu, etc. in my mind. Next we are going to have 12 year old black belts running around after 2 years of training, thinking they can actually defend themselves.

Post: #12

We train takedowns at least once a week at my gym but all sparring starts on the ground.

Agreed about the guard. Watch how this bodybuilder dominates the BJJ guy.

Post: #13

I agree with Rionomads sentiments. I trained with BTT in Rio a few years ago, spent a few years in Brazil actually. Got my blue belt mainly for my no gi skills (i'm terrible in the kimono). I have to agree that Carlson Gracie had the best approach to applying bjj to a real fight. Just look at his lineage of student and their success.

My personal preference for fighting is to upper body clinch, maybe do some damage with some dirty boxing and then take it to the floor if need be. For sheer number off attacks and for ground and pounding I really like the knee on chest position. It also allows you to get up quickly in a street situation.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that if you are a good ground guy then you need to play to your strengths. Learn basic boxing to get the distance and timing right when you are closing the distance. Don't try and box a boxer! I see too many ground guys losing this way, remember Sperry vs Ninja?

Anyway, great thread! Osss

(09-15-2013 05:50 AM)Every10GivesMeA10 Wrote:  We train takedowns at least once a week at my gym but all sparring starts on the ground.

Agreed about the guard. Watch how this bodybuilder dominates the BJJ guy.

Post: #14

I love BJJ.

In some places it's kind of like a karate studio where certain techniques are off limits. I understand the safety issues but really, you're training to get submitted by those techniques if you don't practice them.

Takedowns are something that falls into that category. Space is always limited and guys don't really know how to fall, guys seem to have zero mat awareness all of a sudden so falling on someone often happens.

Then factor most instructors grew up starting on their knees also. This is a relic of a bygone era.

BJJ is has been going through an evolution since the introduction of takedowns, ankle locks, heel hooks, etc. Formerly off limits techniques are now widely used in MMA and so their is a demand to learn them.

When a black belt won't teach takedowns, I think it's because they don't want to appear ignorant in an area they really SHOULD be proficient.

Post: #15

Congrats! Purple belt is a huge milestone.

I personally didn't train much in the gi (18 months, and it was at a school that was strict on blue belts - 24 months or longer even if you trained regularly) and the rest of MMA and no-gi, so I was never promoted and never really worried if I was ready for it.

Again, though, congrats! Purple belt is a big deal.

Post: #16

Got my purple belt in December of 2012. I read somewhere that 90% of people quit at white or blue belt level while 90% of people who eventually make it to purple end up getting their black belt. I consider purple to be the first "advanced" belt - it's actually not super rare to hear about purple belts beating black belts in both class and tournaments.

I actually went through the same thing you did - I had gotten my blue belt in 2010 and I thought I was getting my purple too quickly but I think the added pressure might light a fire under your ass and make you take your training more seriously and with more intensity. I know that for about 2 months after I got my purple I went through a slump where I was rolling like crap and not performing well in class but I didn't stop grinding away and now I'm at the point where I felt like I've really grown into my belt.

And I totally agree with everyone is saying about guard. The only possible situation it could be considered a neutral position is in a strictly grappling situation with no strikes. Guard play changes dramatically when there are strikes allowed. I remembered the first time I did ground and pound sparring - all the energy and effort I would have spent otherwise to work for submissions and sweeps instead went to simply trying to hold the guy close to me to prevent him from landing big shots. I was basically holding on an overhook and head control for life and I pretty much kept closed guard and as you guys know, your offensive capability is severely limited when you keep your legs closed.

Guard is indeed the best position to be in when you end up on bottom but people seem to mistaken "best position to be in bottom" for "neutral position". People will point out all the submissions and attacks you can do from guard and how guys like Nog make a career of catching people off his back. They don't realize the when a guy on bottom can catch the top guy it's because the bottom guy has a SIGNIFICANT skill advantage over his opponent and if a guy is so much better then his opponent that he can catch him off his back then he's going to kick his opponent's ass even worse if he had top position. If you take two guys who are the same skill level and are physically equal and start them off from the guard position with one guy on top and one guy on bottom then the guy on top is going to win the majority of the time.

As for the guys who are worried about sport BJJ ruining the combat aspects of BJJ - check out the Gracie Combatives instructional DVDs. The moves that are taught on it are the usual moves that all blue belts should know (upa mount escape, armbar from guard, elevator sweep, etc.). The moves are taught with more details that I've seen in any other instructional set and it's always assumed that you are attempting to pull off the moves in a situation where the opponent is trying to hit you. When I was training for my first MMA fight I studied the punch block series they taught in it and while I didn't have to use guard in my fight, I can tell you guys when I was working off my back in training I found it to be very effective when it came to nullifying ground and pound from the guy on top.

Post: #17

(09-15-2013 11:33 PM)Wutang Wrote:  And I totally agree with everyone is saying about guard. The only possible situation it could be considered a neutral position is in a strictly grappling situation with no strikes. Guard play changes dramatically when there are strikes allowed. I remembered the first time I did ground and pound sparring - all the energy and effort I would have spent otherwise to work for submissions and sweeps instead went to simply trying to hold the guy close to me to prevent him from landing big shots. I was basically holding on an overhook and head control for life and I pretty much kept closed guard and as you guys know, your offensive capability is severely limited when you keep your legs closed.

Have you tried playing rubber guard? Thoughts? I used to train at 10th planet with Eddie bravo, so obviously I'm a believer. Eddie bravo is ready to admit he's not pushing it as the best guard overall, but the best for MMA. As you related, when punches get introduced, all of a sudden you need to clinch and eliminate the space needed for punches, so you might as well have this be an offensive position, which is what the rubber guard is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvAmJbP8RQc

Post: #18

Laser, when and where?

Post: #19

(09-16-2013 01:57 AM)Laser Wrote:  

(09-15-2013 11:33 PM)Wutang Wrote:  And I totally agree with everyone is saying about guard. The only possible situation it could be considered a neutral position is in a strictly grappling situation with no strikes. Guard play changes dramatically when there are strikes allowed. I remembered the first time I did ground and pound sparring - all the energy and effort I would have spent otherwise to work for submissions and sweeps instead went to simply trying to hold the guy close to me to prevent him from landing big shots. I was basically holding on an overhook and head control for life and I pretty much kept closed guard and as you guys know, your offensive capability is severely limited when you keep your legs closed.

Have you tried playing rubber guard? Thoughts? I used to train at 10th planet with Eddie bravo, so obviously I'm a believer. Eddie bravo is ready to admit he's not pushing it as the best guard overall, but the best for MMA. As you related, when punches get introduced, all of a sudden you need to clinch and eliminate the space needed for punches, so you might as well have this be an offensive position, which is what the rubber guard is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvAmJbP8RQc

No guard is an offensive position. You CAN mount offense from there, but the guard is a defensive position, regardless of which guard it is.

Mount is an offensive and dominant position. It is vastly superior to any guard.

Is rubber guard, or whatever you wish to call it, the best guard for MMA? Maybe. I don't know. What I do know is it doesn't fix any of the problems I brought up about BJJ philosophy. If anything, it magnifies them because so many newbies are fixated on playing an advanced guard system that they have no business playing until they learn regular closed guard concepts, and most importantly, some takedowns and basic self defense concepts.

Maybe playing Bravo's system is the best way to play guard for MMA, but takedowns and an aggressive top game still need to be pushed significantly more in BJJ schools for it to continue to be an effective form of self defense.

Post: #20

Fisto - About two years ago at the 10th planet headquarters in Hollywood

Rio - I think Eddie would agree with your points. Getting on top and submitting is always the goal. However, as an mma fighter, eventually you'll run into some NCAA beast who's wrestling is good enough to take you down at will, so its necessary to have a guard that's good enough to win you the fight if you are forced to fight off your back. He used to be part of the production team for UFC events, and would always tell us about good up and coming mma fighters who could never make it off the non-televised undercard because they couldn't handle being lay and prayed.

Additionally, in an mma fight, there are 2 offensive options. Attack standing or initiate a takedown. Having an elite guard gives you a 3rd option. If you're fighting someone who's killing you standing and has elite takedown defence, you can pull guard as a LAST DITCH effort to try and salvage a win.

Post: #21

first off - purple is a huge accomplishment - congrats


take downs dont get worked on for the simple reason that there is not a lot of space for everyone to do that. at my school, we have separate take down classes and those who are competing definitely work on them in the fight team work outs.

but for general pop, when you have 8-10 sparring sessions going on at a time, take downs are impossible.



please dont call BJJ'ers fighters though, if you can't get punched in the face, its not a fight. and i've rolled for years off and on. I always prefer to say BJJ player

and with respect to being ready?

all the guys at my gym who get promoted feel like they should have been promoted ages ago. we're old school. promotions are generally granted based on tourney success. if you medal consistently, you get promoted.

Post: #22

PS: mario sperry was a BAD ASS MO FO

Post: #23

(09-16-2013 01:57 AM)Laser Wrote:  

(09-15-2013 11:33 PM)Wutang Wrote:  And I totally agree with everyone is saying about guard. The only possible situation it could be considered a neutral position is in a strictly grappling situation with no strikes. Guard play changes dramatically when there are strikes allowed. I remembered the first time I did ground and pound sparring - all the energy and effort I would have spent otherwise to work for submissions and sweeps instead went to simply trying to hold the guy close to me to prevent him from landing big shots. I was basically holding on an overhook and head control for life and I pretty much kept closed guard and as you guys know, your offensive capability is severely limited when you keep your legs closed.

Have you tried playing rubber guard? Thoughts? I used to train at 10th planet with Eddie bravo, so obviously I'm a believer. Eddie bravo is ready to admit he's not pushing it as the best guard overall, but the best for MMA. As you related, when punches get introduced, all of a sudden you need to clinch and eliminate the space needed for punches, so you might as well have this be an offensive position, which is what the rubber guard is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvAmJbP8RQc

I bought Eddie's first book back into the day and I read what he had to say about how rubber guard was supposed to be saving grace for BJJ in MMA and his stance about gi vs no gi. The points he made about the first point made a lot of sense to me on paper but when you look at actual fights you just don't see rubber guard being used that effectively. Most people, when they do go for rubber guard usually just hold onto mission control for dear life and spend all their energy just holding the top guy down so he can't posture up and start throwing punches.

I do agree about his stance when it comes to no gi vs gi though. I train gi pretty much all the time myself since I don't have a choice but I always found the BJJ community's insistence on the importance of the gi and how you're not doing real BJJ if you don't have a gi on to be bizzare. I can't think of any martial art or combat sport that places so much emphasis on the uniform you wear when you are training. Can you imagine if wrestlers were like "Bro you aren't doing real wrestling unless you wear the wrestling burqua while training since doing so slows down the game and makes you more technical". Honestly I find a lot of hype behind how gi makes you more technical is simply tradition and argument from authority which is funny since BJJ guys are always constantly making fun of karate/TKD and other TMAs for following outdated tradition just for the sake of tradition.

Post: #24

I agree with the criticisms of BJJ.

Post: #25

Technique is just strength applied in an efficient way.

Let's have guy A has 10 units of strength while guy B has 6 units. If all other things were even, guy A should be able to stomp guy B. However, if guy B has some training and is able to use 90% of his strength while guy A can only use 30% then guy B should be able to beat him despite guy B having an overall strength advantage. Now if guy B just got a bit of training, even if he now only use 70% (less then guy B's 90%) then he should be able to beat guy B even though he has less training and technique.

That said, I think strength by itself as a physical trait is overrated. I've rolled with guys who were big into lifting and had lots of gross strength but they didn't have much athletic ability so all their efforts spent trying to throw their opponent around was totally wasted. Now, a guy who has natural athletic ability - ie. a guy who is coordinated, quick, can move around with agility will be able to give even a trained guy a tough roll just by virtue of that. If they are both strong and athletic (think someone like Brock Lesnar) then even with the tiniest bit of training they'll be able to crush a lot of guys who are more skilled.