Post: #1

The most valuable game lesson I have learned is this: create your own world with your own rules and expectations for how everything should work, and how people should behave around you. Live in your world, not a world created by someone else.

Writing your own ticket, so to speak, is incredibly powerful. The question becomes not “who is going to let me?” but instead “who is going to stop me?” You can do anything you want with this mentality, and it causes you to challenge long established beliefs. For me, one of those beliefs was that you have to take a girl on a date in order to have sex with her.

And I came to the realization that...

...Going on a date with a girl is the absolute best way to cockblock yourself. You’re setting up obstacles that you'll have to overcome throughout the date. If you just want to sleep with the girl, why would you meet her in a public place where you can't have sex? That's illogical. Why force upon yourself the eventual awkward do-or-die moment when you try to get her home, or try to weasel your way into her place? It's unnecessary. You are a highly sexual alpha male, and she can succumb to you right now or she can walk away. It’s got nothing to do with how fun the date was, or how many venue changes you performed.

How she feels is the only thing that matters. Familiarity is not a prerequisite for sex. Neither is raw physical attraction. We already know this. These are all foundational elements of Game, yet we ignore these truths by taking girls on dates. Why?

Romance is an old world concept. Young hot girls don’t want romance, they want something engaging, dangerous and sexual. However we also know that girls don't want to feel like sluts. Yet going on a date introduces the concepts of romance and sluttiness into her subconscious; confusing her very simple, emotionally driven brain. These are obstacles that must be overcome if sex is going to occur. It's a sticky situation, but we brought it upon ourselves.

Going on a date with a girl, then inviting her back to your place for what she knows can only be sex, will make her feel like a slut. She will second guess herself every step of the way. She will be wondering if anyone at the bar saw her leave with you, leading to social anxiety and embarrassment. She will wonder if your conversations were all a front, and if you are just using her for sex. She will wonder or even ask outright if you are a player. "Why would he take me out to a nice place if he just wants to have sex?" It creates cognitive dissonance, which throws up red flags in her hind brain and sometimes she walks away from the interaction altogether. See also: "Reaction Formation."

So why do we bother with all of that? Why do we put ourselves into these situations? Reduce your variables.

Skipping the first date and inviting her directly over sets the frame and lets her know your intentions. No guessing games. Going to a man's house for drinks and maybe sex does not make her feel like a slut, because it’s her choice to either go over or not go over. No one will see her, no one else will know what she did, and most importantly, no one will judge her - the single greatest fear of women around the world. That is exhilarating in and of itself for the girl. She is attracted to a man that wants to give her exactly what she craves but is culturally prevented from saying outright or even admitting to herself: casual, private, no strings attached sex. So stop complicating things.

Here is how it goes down:

You number close a girl. Run some flirty, occasionally semi-sexual but surface level comfort building text message game on her over the course of 1-3 weeks. Then, one day around noon you hit her up out of the blue. You invite her over to your place. You do not ask her on a date. In fact, throughout texting and the number close, you've never once said “maybe we can go out sometime.” No, instead you’ve only ever said “maybe we can hang out sometime.” Subtle but important difference. You’re setting and controlling the frame.

I've thought about this long and hard, and tried a dozen different techniques, but I think the magic bullet to get girls over is this: there is no magic bullet. No false pretenses, no setting up plausible deniability, no one liners, no bait and switch, no shadiness, no routines. Just: “do you want to come by for drinks later” That’s it. It's forward, it engages the girl, and it cuts out the bullshit.

Four Common Scenarios:

Best case:
You: “Hey what you up to later, we should chill.”
Her: “Sure. I’m free after 8”
You: “Want to come by my place for a drink at 9, I’ve got some new recipes”
Her: “Okay”
You: “Text me when you’re heading out and I can give you directions”
Her: “Will do”

That’s it. Just be cool. Don’t use question marks; you’re telling her what she wants not asking for permission.The last line about giving directions is important: you are confirming that she understands she is coming over to your place, without being needy and directly asking if she understands.

---

Sometimes, she will say: “Uhmmm, no I don’t want to go over to your place. I’m not some booty call.”

That’s fine, you just let these girls go. Forget about them and delete their numbers.

---

Many times, she will say: “Haha well what if you are a serial killer or something”

That’s a great response to get, because it means she wants to come over but is a little nervous, so all you need to do is remind her that she wants to hang out with you. Agree and amplify, be playful, or if your phone game is strong, call her and chat for a minute. Then you say "ok so I'll plan to see you at 9. Text me when you head out and I'll give you directions"

---

Occasionally, she will say: “I’d feel more comfortable meeting in public”

This is a very tricky response to get, and I have not mastered it yet. I think these are the girls that like to bang on the second date. Sometimes I’m able to run comfort game and get them to come over, or try to drop huge bait about why my place is better than a bar. Sometimes they buy it, sometimes they don’t. If they don’t buy it, you never hear from them again as the cat is out of the bag, so to speak, and the sexual tension is dissipated. I have lost many girls at this stage.

---

Those are the 4 scenarios you will run into. I have tried many many techniques over the past four months, and have had more than 20 girls say “no” to me during this time. But 15 have said yes, and 11 of those 15 had sex with me. That’s a better success rate than when I take girls on regular dates. I'm sure glad I didn't take those other 20 out, because they are the girls that would have flaked pre-date, not banged on first date, not banged even after 3 dates, gone radio silent after the first date, or put me in the friend zone. So I avoided all of that effort and trouble. The four I didn’t bang were early on in my Zero Date Bang quest, and were results of going caveman, or otherwise not understanding the subtleties of what was taking place.

When she shows up at your door:

From here it’s straightforward. Just run first date style game in your own home. She will be nervous, but since you are acting like you’ve done this a thousand times, she will begin to chill out and remind herself why she came. She is running on pure emotion, so work with that.

Give her a tour, and make her a complicated drink. This gives her heart time to stop beating so fast. Then, you sit at your kitchen table, or on your porch, or on your couch, whatever. Chat with her, get her to start talking, or just do most of the talking yourself. Doesn’t matter about what, since it’s just buying time for you both to finish your drink. This is subtly different than normal first dates where you are attempting to get to know each other. Make a second drink, turn up the music, ask her what kind of music she likes (have your itunes open or whatever so she can pick some songs) then go for the kiss. From when she walks in to the first kiss should be somewhere between 45 mins to 2 hours. No need to rush, she's yours for the night.

Back off after the first kiss - don’t go caveman. Pull away from the kiss and say “I’ve got to show you something.” Show her pictures from your trip, your music collection, the drawing your kid brother made for you, whatever. Just buy 10 minutes to build more sexual tension, and avoid activating any residual anti-slut defense that might be lingering in her subconscious. Go for the second kiss. Repeat if necessary, you'll have to feel it out for yourself. But from there it’s game on.

Results:

Afterwords, things are easy. She knows you don’t want a relationship, so she’ll leave you alone. Since you threw down, she will feel sexier than she has ever felt before. To her, these are the kinds of things that only happen in movies and 50 shades of gray books. She has no misgivings or regrets about sleeping with you, and has never had an experience like she has had with you. She is exhilarated, happy, and feels more empowered than any feminist literature could ever make her feel.

She’s in the palm of your hand from here. No need to text her or see her every week or try to save face by maintaining a mini-relationship. Just text the next day, say you had fun, make her feel good about it. Then you can hit her up whenever you want to see her again.

Additional thoughts and observations:

The most surprising thing about Zero Date Bangs, is that when the girl comes over, she is not attached to her iPhone. At all. She might check it once, but by and large it stays in her purse the entire night. I don’t know the reasoning, but it has held true for every girl that has walked through my door.

Girls don't flake on you once they decide to come over. This is because you've engaged them emotionally, something that setting up a drink date in public does not achieve.

Audio recorder: since she is a stranger, you want to cover your bases. Run an audio or voice recorder in your bedroom or use a smartphone app to record all the sound throughout the night. Think of it as insurance in case something goes wrong, as it becomes your word against hers, and we know how that turns out for men.

What do all of these girls have in common? They are emotionally stable and independent. “Fly girls,” as gmanifesto would say. She’s the girl you see at club laughing at other girls for being drunken fools. Party girls have not come through for me, because they need their friends to do anything, or they just like to be seen out on the town with a guy, not actually intending to sleep with him. The girls that come over are all pleasant and easy going. What's funny is that I would consider seriously dating almost all of them because by coming over, they've proven to me that they are not part of the typical status quo herd mentality.

In conclusion:

Look, I know this might not be the right game for everyone. If you are going to sweat it when a girl refuses to come over, and tells you to delete her number because she is honestly offended by you, then it's not a good fit. If you have bad logistics and live with roommates, forget about it. If you're more nervous than she is, you're going to bomb.

However, the greater lesson here is to try something totally new in your game, and to question absolutely everything about why you do what you do. Reduce your variables, write your own rules, and the girls will follow.

In other words...

Shake things up.

Post: #2

Thank you for dropping stats and confirming a better conversion rate than with traditional venues. I experimented with this for internet girls a while back for a couple months, but the conversion rate to day 2s (understandably) suffered too much. I might experiment with this again from direct approach number farming.

One interesting thing I noticed is that most of them did offer a compromise venue, which is very good because they acknowledged the drinks at my place (I want to fuck you) message, so they are already on-board and the bang is now yours to lose at that venue. In theory that was was the beauty of this method: you either get her straight to your place with a likely bang if you don't screw up and less drink expenses, or you get a regular date that has received the coded "I want to fuck you" message loud and clear and is willing to go along with it.

Next let's apply the 4HWW elimination method to opening girls and instead just go straight for the number:

Post: #3

Or you could accept you have holes in your date game and you could go on a bunch of dates to patch them up. I have like an 80-90% close rate on dates in the last year, and the previous years it wasn't near so high. If you are losing girls on dates, you should be more worried on improving yourself than just getting laid. Especially since the only girls that will come straight to your apartment are slutty girls that know what will happen and the occasional good girl that what will happen just goes over her head. For me it's become a goal to be able to hook up with any girl I choose, that can't happen if I demand they come to my place.

On the other side, I have asked girls to come straight over and it is almost no work. The two times it will work. 1. she thinks you are are out of her league. 2. She is slutty and just loves the dick. Whenever I sense one of these things I will ask them to come straight to my place just to see if they accept. No reason to waste time gaming a girl that you won't have to. But no reason to turn down a sexy girl just because a date is more of a challenge.

Post: #4

I do an intermediate version of this- have them meet me at my house then we go somewhere together.

The implication is that well go back to my place together....

Im w/20Nation on this. You lose out on too many girls by pulling stuff like this. Few rich or very hot girls will ever accept this. Its just "below" them. You have to spin some kind of magic to get them comfortable w/you.

Post: #5

Good thread.

I can see the point in what the other guys are saying above. It is very direct, and you might scare the cat.

But at the same time you are definitely filtering out some girls that wouldn't have banged you anyways from the ones that might.

As always it's about experimenting. See if it works for you. Especially if traditional date setups haven't been going well recently.

Post: #6

During your initial meet, how much work are you putting in?

WIA

Post: #7

20+ no's, 15 yes's, 11 bangs...that's an awesome conversion rate! I remember Paul Janka, who uses the Zero Date Bang model as well, said his conversion rate is roughly 11%.

What are you doing on the front end that's making so many of these girls comfortable enough to come over to your place?

Post: #8

(09-25-2013 10:26 AM)DVY Wrote:  Few rich or very hot girls will ever accept this. Its just "below" them.

Says who?

Many players on RVF have told me: "if you want to bang 8's and 9's, treat them the exact same as 6's and 7's." Are you saying it's necessary to take rich girls and 9's on dates in order to fuck them?

(09-25-2013 10:10 AM)20Nation Wrote:  The two times it will work. 1. she thinks you are are out of her league. 2. She is slutty and just loves the dick.

1. I am out of most girls leagues.
2. I thought all girls were sluts and loved dick?

I hear what you're saying man, and your 90% close rate is admirable...but to attribute your success more to the act of going on a date than to the basic nature of horny females or your own game...then I believe that is a mistake. Your game is already tight - you don't need to go on dates.

Most of the girls that have come over have been "good girls." After we bang, they say things like: "I've never done anything like this before." Me: "What do you mean?" Her: "Go to a guys place to sleep with him." They say this with a HUGE smile on their face, and then jump me for round two.

Why?

Because if you're a socially well adjusted and horny girl - regardless of how hot you are - what are your options?

1. You can wait for a player to day game you and ask you out (infrequent)
2. You can go out on weekends and get hit on by chumps with no game (exhausting and annoying)
3. You can approach a guy you like and ask him out (non-traditional and unfeminine)
4. You can go on a potentially awkward and boring date (time consuming and frustrating)
5. You can come to my place and get banged (dangerous and fun)

I'm the best option many girls have. That's why it works.

Post: #9

(09-25-2013 11:00 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  During your initial meet, how much work are you putting in?

WIA

It's basically a first date in reverse. Instead of coming over at the end of the date, she comes over at the beginning. Then I run standard date game once she is here, and it takes 2-3 hours before the bang occurs.

(09-25-2013 11:18 AM)VincentVinturi Wrote:  What are you doing on the front end that's making so many of these girls comfortable enough to come over to your place?

That is what has been so surprising - I haven't done anything out of the ordinary. At the beginning of this experiment, I thought I had to build huge comfort with these girls, call them on the phone, etc. But I have found no correlation between comfort and her coming over. I keep pretty detailed notes on this stuff, and try to examine all the variables.

The most surprising one...only 3 of the 15 girls talked to me on the phone before coming over. Something I would have thought was mandatory turned out to be nearly irrelevant. Furthermore, 10 of the girls I talked to on the phone (some more than once) didn't end up coming over. So it's almost as if comfort works against me here. These girls lead such boring plain lives that they crave a little bit of discomfort and danger.

All that said - I do text the girls off and on for about 1-3 weeks. Just random shit, sending them funny pictures, doing SnapChat, whatever. Enough so that they know I'm a real person. But it doesn't take much.

Post: #10

For some dates increase value, for others it can be a stumbling block.

A key I've noticed is congruency between who a girl thinks you are and who you actually are. This reason alone is why I think there is so much hate from guys who tried and failed at 'game'. They were running around with routines and ideas that were the complete opposite of who they were.

Post: #11

Post: #12

(09-24-2013 09:01 PM)BlurredSevens Wrote:  create your own world with your own rules and expectations for how everything should work

(09-24-2013 09:01 PM)BlurredSevens Wrote:  “who is going to stop me?”

(09-25-2013 12:19 PM)BlurredSevens Wrote:  I'm the best option many girls have. That's why it works.

I love this guys fucking frame!!!

I'm the same way. I don't do many dates.

I'm not trying to date girls, I'm trying to bang them!

Mt first offer is to just hang out and drink at her place or mine. Sometimes they take this first offer, sometimes they don't.

Post: #13

I like this post because it goes against current game orthodoxy. Anything that challenges widely held beliefs is good.

Are all of the girls who came over American (i.e. born here), or are there some FOB's mixed there?

Post: #14

OK, i experimented running something like this in SF, which has solid logistics. Id text the girl to come over and we'd have a drink at my pad, but usually I would head out to dinner w/her. Sometimes Id feel she was really liked me, and Id just swoop here there. Usually, the girl felt uneasy.

I like Asian girls, and maybe that accounts for my differences. Generally, they are more conservative, and a little bit of food, being seen out on the town w/you, and some drinks will put them at ease. Keep in mind, my dates are not expensive. Just some light food + alcohol.

My "dates-swoop rate" is 75%+. I spend no time texting them other than logistics (4-5 texts) and maybe 1 phone call.

Edit- Some more information would help. Where do you live? What types of girls are these? Where did you meet them? Tinder?

Post: #15

(09-24-2013 09:01 PM)BlurredSevens Wrote:  The most valuable game lesson I have learned is this: create your own world with your own rules and expectations for how everything should work, and how people should behave around you. Live in your world, not a world created by someone else.

Writing your own ticket, so to speak, is incredibly powerful. The question becomes not “who is going to let me?” but instead “who is going to stop me?” You can do anything you want with this mentality, and it causes you to challenge long established beliefs.

I've thought about this long and hard, and tried a dozen different techniques, but I think the magic bullet to get girls over is this: there is no magic bullet. No false pretenses, no setting up plausible deniability, no one liners, no bait and switch, no shadiness, no routines. Just: “do you want to come by for drinks later” That’s it. It's forward, it engages the girl, and it cuts out the bullshit.

Four Common Scenarios:

Best case:
You: “Hey what you up to later, we should chill.” 
Her: “Sure. I’m free after 8”
You: “Want to come by my place for a drink at 9, I’ve got some new recipes” (You're baiting and switching here but done well)
Her: “Okay”
You: “Text me when you’re heading out and I can give you directions”
Her: “Will do”

I like the idea of offering a partially deniable fuck option. If you think about it, you're offering her a better alternative to masturbation -- no one knows about it, but it's real sex. And it can evolve into something way better than masturbation.

I've got a meeting set up Friday, I'm going to combine Samseau's no make-out plan with yours.

I vote +1 on the "create your own world[view] idea, but your provocative essay falls short when attacking an undefined idea of "romance."

Romance is almost as bad as the idea of God in that every person that thinks of it thinks of something different.

For instance, thinking about someone when you're not with them is romantic in my view, and I think it's great for a girl to think about you when you're not around. So why is "romance" bad then?

Your good idea will be better if you break down what aspects of romance are bad for moving the relationship along.

Post: #16

Great post. I avoid dates at all costs for the same reasons.

(09-24-2013 09:01 PM)BlurredSevens Wrote:  Occasionally, she will say: “I’d feel more comfortable meeting in public”

This is a very tricky response to get, and I have not mastered it yet. I think these are the girls that like to bang on the second date. Sometimes I’m able to run comfort game and get them to come over, or try to drop huge bait about why my place is better than a bar. Sometimes they buy it, sometimes they don’t. If they don’t buy it, you never hear from them again as the cat is out of the bag, so to speak, and the sexual tension is dissipated. I have lost many girls at this stage.

When I've gotten this response, I also drop bait sometimes. What I've found has gotten girls with this response over to my place is reframing the idea of meeting in public.
Ex: "see whats the point in waiting until after we go to a bar to find out im a serial killer? it will just take a longer. id rather just get that out of the way off the bat and save us both some time"
Ex: "traditional dates are for weird awkward people who dont know how to talk to people one-on-one." - even though it doesnt make logical sense, it will bring up the memory at least one awkward, weird beta dude date and make coming over a more attractive option by comparison."

If that doesnt work BUT she's already suggested a venue, you've still got a shot at avoiding a full-blown date.
Ex: Her: I'd feel more comfortable meeting in public
You: (drop bait about your place, reframe, etc)
Her: What about XYZ Bar?
You: No thats dumb on such a nice night. we're gonna walk around *insert some scenic location near your place.* ill bring my flask
or
if you own a dog or have a friend who will let you borrow the dog, send a picture of the dog with the caption. "im petsitting this guy tonight so i cant do bars. gonna take for a walk in a half hour though. come join"

In both situations, you've made "meeting in public" your idea so you keep the frame. And although you have more obstacles than if they had gone straight to your place, you have fewer obstacles than if you had met at a bar or restaurant.

Post: #17

(09-25-2013 12:55 PM)Menace Wrote:  Are all of the girls who came over American (i.e. born here), or are there some FOB's mixed there?

Mostly American white girls, two were Latinas, one was a Pacific Islander type. Age range has been 18-28, but most have been on the younger end of the spectrum.

I've got a FOB Ukrainian girl I'm working on now. Am curious to see how it plays out once I get some free time to see her.

(09-25-2013 01:27 PM)DVY Wrote:  My "dates-swoop rate" is 75%+. I spend no time texting them other than logistics (4-5 texts) and maybe 1 phone call.

Edit- Some more information would help. Where do you live? What types of girls are these? Where did you meet them? Tinder?

See my texting strategy has changed from when I went on dates to now when I don't do dates. Before, I was only logistical in texts. Now, I'm extremely playful and chatty - throwing in hours or days of silence to keep them guessing - and I don't even suggest a meetup until the second week after we've started texting.

I live in the western US. See above for girl descriptions. Mostly meeting them on Tinder, but two from day game. My specialty is online, so that's where I focus.

With that said, this whole scenario is easier with girls you number closed in person: she already knows you're not a murderer, and she liked your vibe enough to give out her number.

Post: #18

Blurred,

Are you in a large city in the Western US? I can see this working in a bit of a slower moving city, in terms of a week or two of playful texting.

Post: #19

Cool thread. Glad this approach has worked out for you. Not the first time I've heard that advice. A friend of mine e-mailed me a tweet from art of charm a few months ago where I heard the same thing.

Seconded on MaleDefined's question.

http://theartofcharm.com/building-a-conn...-you-like/

Quote:How’d you like to have a drink at my place?
One that every man should get comfortable asking. You’re not asking her to spend the night, though it certainly is implied that that might happen if things go well. Invite her over for a drink and you establish yourself as a high value man who asks for precisely what he wants.

Post: #20

...or make money while banging girls.

Post: #21

This is brilliant, bravo.

I wonder how the efficacy changes for Anglos vs Slavs.

Post: #22

This is a great thread. It's an alternative as I was starting to find dates very tedious and they'd get in the way of my gym schedule. I was looking for some kind of filter too. I start work in a popular club/bar soon so I'll try and report back with my results.

Post: #23

Great input OP.

I use this quite frequently and a lot of my friends quite simply cannot believe I do it. I don't think it is good for EVERY situation, but most dudes on here would be surprised if they just "went for it" with some girls.

Another thing I am curious/skeptical about...

Audio or video recording conversations, according to my research, is essentially useless. From what my lawyer friends have told me, it is nearly impossible to use it as evidence in court. This is because the subject needs to know they are going to be recorded.

Obviously retail stores are allowed to record people because it is fairly obvious that you will be recorded in a public space, where theft is a high possibility. But in a private residence... You might have a hard time convincing the judge to allow it as evidence...

Anyone have further insight?

Post: #24

(09-25-2013 07:55 PM)MaleDefined Wrote:  Blurred,

Are you in a large city in the Western US? I can see this working in a bit of a slower moving city, in terms of a week or two of playful texting.

Excuse my paranoia about not publicly posting up my city (PM me if you want to know). But the metro population here is 3 million. Compared to say Boston at 4M and Montreal at 3.8M.

Regarding 1-2 weeks of texting: I'd say my texting game is akin to a light trolling of girls. Whereas most guys are trying to setup a date with the girl as soon as they get her number, I'm over here sending them funny pictures of Miley Cyrus or asking them how to unclog my shower drain.

I'm not worried about trying to demonstrate my value to the girl, it's all about my vibe and how she feels when interacting with me. The subject matter is irrelevant. I throw stuff at her and see how she handles it.

Basically I just text the girls for my own amusement. They are here to entertain me. If she doesn't want to play along, that's cool too I'll just let her go. The girls that stick around, I'll hit them up when I'm in the mood to bang. No stress no fuss.

I think a lot of guys vastly overestimate how much girls have going on in their lives. Most of them aren't doing jack shit half the time. She isn't going to just forget about me overnight. Of course if I can seal the deal quickly I will, but really I'm not stressing myself out about trying to bang the girl by an arbitrary expiration date.

Post: #25

Replying to what the OP I think using your so called "text game" model is quite good for the zero date structure as it builds rapport and enough rapport to be able to just go to his house without really knowing him.
However if I did the zero date bang model with my crappy text game (I just text them trying to set up something at a bar etc.) Im sure id be labelled "creepy" and I don't think my fragile ego could take it haha.
Well good luck to anyone who can make it work.