Post: #1

After a long lazy hiatus Im back on a Starting Strength type workout plan, basically compound movements 3x a week.

Ive been doing research online and cannot find a solid basis for nutrition. I see many sites reference the (50% carb, 30% protein, and 20% fat) but also see people shun most carbs all together, working out fasted or in ketosis.

My current plan is to just buy whole wheat carbs (bread, pasta, etc) and tons of lean meat. Id eat around my maintenance every day, and then slam two double scoop protein shakes w milk (total of ~1000 cals, 120g protein) on the 3 days I lift.

I've read even as a beginner, which I basically am at this point, can at the absolute very best expect 4lb of muscle in the first and maybe second month (more realistically 2 lb), so I don't see any reason to eat any more than the protein shakes (~3000 cal a week surplus) over maintenance.

All the computation gets kinda annoying. One friend I had was in fantastic shape, strong and ripped. He would just eat foods "when he was hungry". Apparently his body would just let him know when he needed food. I wish I could be that in tune.

Post: #2

It is crazy how many different schools of thought there are on this, and a lot of it comes down to what exactly you're training for so you get can specific. But for just general fitness, whether it's carbs, no carbs, two meals per day, ten meals per day, don't sweat the details too much in the beginning. If you are just starting to lift or coming back to it after a long break, then eat normally and focus on maintaining the rate of increase of your lifts. Don't be scared of fatty meat, and don't go crazy with the bowls of pasta. Eat a steady and balanced amount of food, and as your lifts go up you will notice your appetite will increase, which is fine, it means you should eat more because you're muscles are growing. If you are focusing on getting stronger and you are not already a fat fuck then you can eat a lot in those first three to six months of lifting. Once you get to a level of strength that you are comfortable at and you don't mind your lifts plateauing then stop increasing the weight on the bar and cut out carbs along with maintaining a slight calorie deficit and the fat will melt right off, although it does make the lifts more difficult. So eat like a champion while you are getting stronger, and then once you are strong eat like a little girl while maintaining the lifts to drop the fat. For now forget about ketosis or pounds of muscle gained per week or any of that and just focus on being able to do sets of bench at 225, squat at 315 and deadlift at 405. Hitting those numbers is a great achievement for the average man. I'm currently at sets of 165 bench, 225 squat and 245 deadlift and it's starting to feel heavy but I'm still maintaining the weekly increases of 5 pounds for the bench and squat and 10 pounds for the deadlift.

Post: #3

There's many schools of thought on this and to a point you must experiment and find what's right for you.

One thing worth taking into account is that type II muscle fibers require glycogen to function. If you don't have any (i.e; ketosis diets) your lifts must inevitably go down. This is not necessarily a bad thing but something worth knowing.

In terms of macronutrients, there are three; protein, carbs, and fat.
Nobody ever got fat from eating protein, protein itself satiates and has a thermic property, meaning that for every 100 calories of protein you eat, roughly 30 calories of it are burned just by digesting the protein. Protein is therefore muscle sparing and fat burning.

Fat (healthy fats preferably) also satiate, can consist of a large portion of the diet (eskimos ate something like 70-80% fat and the rest protein), and are generally muscle and fat sparing.

Carbs are a wild card. Every fatass you have ever seen got that way due to carbs. There just doesn't exist enough whale blubber in the world to make somebody McDumpsters fat. Carbs are muscle and fat sparing. In cases of metabolic issues (due to long term overconsumption of carbs and underconsumption of protein, generally speaking), carbs can even be muscle catabolizing.

So if you want to lean bulk (gain muscle and burn fat at the same time) just eat shitloads of protein; roughly in the 1.5 to 2 gram per pound of bodyweight range. This is a lot of protein. You're going to need to eat something like 1-1.5 pounds of chicken, beef, etc; then some eggs, then finish with protein shakes (2 to 6 scoops daily is not unreasonable) in order to make this. You should feel the thermic rush of a big hit of protein in a hurry.

Then fill the rest of your diet with fats and as few carbs as you need to get by. Experiment - I do fine on about two or three bananas a day and what carbs exist in my protein shakes.

Once you get to your targeted leanness you can up the carb intake; monitor your bodyfat levels in a mirror and lower carb intake (and up protein intake) to return back to desired leanness, as carbs (particularly grain carbs and sugar) are fattening as hell.

Targeted or cyclical keto diets, IMO, are the best way to go about this.

If you overeat carbs and want to cheat your way back to keto, just get drunk, piss out all your glycogen, and start over.

Edit: I think GOMAD is dumb as hell - those sort of macros are just insane (so much sugar) and you need to lift heavily every day (none of this three days a week nonsense) to avoid the inevitable 20-30 pounds of fat gain. I think that's a great one-size-fits-all type program and an easy way to cram in a lot of calories (drinking calories is easier) but unless you're lifting like Arthur Saxon you shouldn't be eating like him.

Post: #4

Well said.

Post: #5

Hey DC.

To start with its all about calories in vs calories out. If your over by about 200 then you will hopefully gain muscle. If not, add another 100.

Obviously the calories are best if they come from good sources such as wholemeal bread, chicken, LOTS OF EGGS, brown rice etc.

Thats what I am currently doing. I only really optimize fats etc when I cut, for example on keto. I think you should only focus on the %'s after a few years of lifting or if you're on a program that states the best macros, such as leangains.

For me I am currently eating a lot of carbs on 'on' days (especially after my w/o) and lowering them whilst increasing fat the next day.

C

Post: #6

Don't believe the nonsense about limits on muscle gains. Novices can gain a lot more than is usually quoted. See the case of Zack Evetts for reference:

http://startingstrength.com/resources/fo...hp?t=15386

He is most certainly a freak case but it's definitely possible to gain a lot with the compounds while eating and sleeping right. I'm 22lbs up in 4 months from Starting Strength (yes some is fat but not that much). That said, I did a lot of fucking around with my diet instead of making sure I ate enough.

Without any doubt, I have learned that eating a little too much is better than not eating enough. If you limit your calories too much you won't recover and will be wondering why you are stalling. You can lose fat easily but gaining muscle is tough so do that first. You need a surplus to recover properly and, trust me, raising the weight gets HARD as time goes on. If you are strictly limiting your calories you WILL get stuck eventually. I learned my lesson so hopefully this saves you time.

Post: #7

Basic info on training, diet and supplements (all you need to know): /thread-27606.html

Post: #8

Diet is all about trial and error. The 'science' and explaining you see with diet questions usually only discourage people and keeps them fat. Try several different diets for 4 weeks at a time. In my own experimentation over the years I have tried the Zone, Paleo For Athletes and Slow Carb diets. All of these diets will make you lose weight, but the only one that is right for you is the one you are happiest with doing, meaning, its the easiest for you to do, and the most enjoyable.

For me, its the Slow Carb diet. After you are strict with it for a few weeks it becomes your default eating. You can tweak the numbers, namely, your protein, in response to how much training you are doing. 1 gram of Protein for 1lb of your weight is a good place to start with a powerlifting program. If you are looking to gain muscle slowly and stay lean, this is a good option.

I have done GOMAD and gained 15lbs of lean body muscle in 8 weeks. I gained fat as well, but this is a powerlifting diet not a beach body diet. Its probably the best diet for powerlifting and gaining muscle, and you will not gain muscle like that, that fast, without gaining some fat. I know several people with similar results. My maxes all increased drastically. GOMAD then a cut can work if you are disciplined.

Post: #9

as the previous commentor posted, starting strenght is not a bodybuilding/ beach body workout nor diet.

Post: #10

Quote:If you overeat carbs and want to cheat your way back to keto, just get drunk, piss out all your glycogen, and start over.

How does it work?

Post: #11

(10-16-2013 01:13 AM)one-two Wrote:  

Quote:If you overeat carbs and want to cheat your way back to keto, just get drunk, piss out all your glycogen, and start over.

How does it work?

I'm going to get a lot of flak for asserting this as fact, but basically alcohol is (to a point) not fattening whatsoever. Glycogen is a lot of calories, alcohol is (typically) a lot of calories, piss out one and replace it with the other and you get instant ketosis and probably no net weight gain.

The immediate barrier to burning significant body fat is glycogen stored in the liver (elsewhere in the body as well).

Alcohol basically invades the liver, says "Fuck you, glycogen, it's my turn to be digested", and the liver gets angry and empties itself of glycogen into your piss stream. I have not taken the time to understand the science behind it yet.

Since the human metabolism is what it is, once you empty out most (or all) of your glycogen with alcohol, you can pretty much wake up (nutritionally drained) from your inevitably rough night, drink a bunch of electrolytes (lots of water, magnesium supplement and chicken bouillion cube, no gatorade at it has plenty of sugar in it), then eat a very large serving of somewhat lean protein along with a cup of spinach (leafy vegetables with few carbs) and a Diet Coke if you're feeling fancy, and right there you should practically be in ketosis.

That's why alcoholics get 'alcoholic ketoacidosis' - a very fancy medical term for "underfed but in ketosis" - but for whatever reason alcohol just seems to help invoke ketosis very quickly.

Post: #12

hades:

the exact opposite is actually true. alcohol ceases ketosis immediately upon consumption. body consumes alcohol (sugar) for energy and ceases to use ketones/fat.

once the alcohol is used up, then you go back to ketosis.

glycogen is stored in the muscles. it wont get "pissed" out simply because there is alcohol in the bloodstream. it needs to be activated.

Post: #13

(10-16-2013 02:36 PM)reaper23 Wrote:  glycogen is stored in the muscles. it wont get "pissed" out simply because there is alcohol in the bloodstream. it needs to be activated.

So have shots in between sets. Got it.

Post: #14

(10-16-2013 02:36 PM)reaper23 Wrote:  hades:

the exact opposite is actually true. alcohol ceases ketosis immediately upon consumption. body consumes alcohol (sugar) for energy and ceases to use ketones/fat.

once the alcohol is used up, then you go back to ketosis.

glycogen is stored in the muscles. it wont get "pissed" out simply because there is alcohol in the bloodstream. it needs to be activated.

Actually, it appears that alcohol does have a glycogen depleting effect, at least in the liver.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15567976

It would be interesting to have more studies done(human ones), to see if this carries over to the rest of glycogen stores in the body.

Only a personal anecdote, but I have never felt alcohol to be a source of fat gain. In fact, I feel like it may make me leaner.

Post: #15

As a beginner, you need to keep it simple for the first 6 months, just work on getting to the gym 4-6x a week consistently and eat 1 gram per pound of bodyweight. Once you start to plateau then read up on diet, lifting techniques and start experiments to see what works for you.

Post: #16

This video will teach you all you need to know (and more) about the metabolism of alcohol (plus glucose and fructose). Jump to 51:00 for the beginning of the discussion of ethanol.

Post: #17

(10-16-2013 02:55 PM)Magyarphile Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 02:36 PM)reaper23 Wrote:  hades:

the exact opposite is actually true. alcohol ceases ketosis immediately upon consumption. body consumes alcohol (sugar) for energy and ceases to use ketones/fat.

once the alcohol is used up, then you go back to ketosis.

glycogen is stored in the muscles. it wont get "pissed" out simply because there is alcohol in the bloodstream. it needs to be activated.

Actually, it appears that alcohol does have a glycogen depleting effect, at least in the liver.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15567976

It would be interesting to have more studies done(human ones), to see if this carries over to the rest of glycogen stores in the body.

Only a personal anecdote, but I have never felt alcohol to be a source of fat gain. In fact, I feel like it may make me leaner.

in that study they fed the rats two diets which were energy equivalent.

one with alcohol and one without.

which means that the two diets varied in terms of fats and carbs.

ie. the one with the alcohol had less carbs.

so naturally, there was less accumulation / depletion of liver glycogen.

thats not really relevant to our discussion here where there was a claim made that drinking alcohol can cause ketosis when the exact opposite is known to be true.

alcohol is actually preferred over carbs and fat by the body for energy therefore when it is present, the body will use that for energy over ketones or glycogen stores.

which is precisely not being in ketosis

Post: #18

Thanks for the advice. I figured as much, I should just worry about gym consistancy and getting enough protein for now. If I start feeling pudginess coming on, ill do some running or cut back a bit.

Im 6' and dieted down to low 170s. Im sick of being weak, will work on the leaness again in 3 months with PSMF which was very effective.

Post: #19

(10-16-2013 04:03 PM)reaper23 Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 02:55 PM)Magyarphile Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 02:36 PM)reaper23 Wrote:  hades:

the exact opposite is actually true. alcohol ceases ketosis immediately upon consumption. body consumes alcohol (sugar) for energy and ceases to use ketones/fat.

once the alcohol is used up, then you go back to ketosis.

glycogen is stored in the muscles. it wont get "pissed" out simply because there is alcohol in the bloodstream. it needs to be activated.

Actually, it appears that alcohol does have a glycogen depleting effect, at least in the liver.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15567976

It would be interesting to have more studies done(human ones), to see if this carries over to the rest of glycogen stores in the body.

Only a personal anecdote, but I have never felt alcohol to be a source of fat gain. In fact, I feel like it may make me leaner.

in that study they fed the rats two diets which were energy equivalent.

one with alcohol and one without.

which means that the two diets varied in terms of fats and carbs.

ie. the one with the alcohol had less carbs.

so naturally, there was less accumulation / depletion of liver glycogen.

thats not really relevant to our discussion here where there was a claim made that drinking alcohol can cause ketosis when the exact opposite is known to be true.

alcohol is actually preferred over carbs and fat by the body for energy therefore when it is present, the body will use that for energy over ketones or glycogen stores.

which is precisely not being in ketosis

I guess two points to be made here - true you don't go into ketosis immediately upon drinking (haven't tried a ketostix while drinking but judging by the diabetes-reeking piss that usually accompanies heavy drinking my guess is it's not ketones), AFAIK alcohol itself depletes glycogen, once you sober up you have much less glycogen to worry about.

Not saying "just get hammer drunk for days and days, and while you're sloshing with liquor, ketosis is happening". This is just something I've done using ketostix, have your cheat meal on a Friday night (a few pieces of pizza or a couple of donuts, usually), then get drunk, wake up Saturday and usually by Saturday night (after a light workout and eating only protein during the day), you should piss some variety of purple on a ketostick.

If you skip the drinking episode, it might take three (or even four) days of just meat, eggs, and water to get back into ketosis. I've done both, it works.

This is just something I like doing because it fits with my schedule, not everybody has to do it. A guy can just do a cyclical keto, carb up every Friday, skip the drinking, burn off that stored glycogen by pounding ass in the weight room, and be in solid keto by Tuesday or Wednesday.

Crash diets are cool shit and all but even if you're just losing a pound of fat a week you'll be shredded by New Years - then you can up the carb intake somewhat and probably work out even harder. My old diet (eat whatever, lift heavy) just made me slowly fatter.

And indeed, Magyarphile, I'm pretty sure alcohol keeps me leaner too. The statistics support both of us on that one.

Post: #20

Wasn't really sure what thread to put this in...I'm looking for a good website where I can enter what I'm eating/how much I'm lifting/running and see what nutrients I'm missing. Basically an online calculator for easy access. Lately I've been tiring easily but haven't changed my diet/routine.

Any link suggestions? Thanks.

Post: #21

myfitnesspal.com

Post: #22

I eat a decent amount of food, but I needed to change up my routine to get my appetite up.

I got a trainer who helped me get some routine started and some nutrition advice. I ended up reaching a hard plateau which sucked. I got stronger but the lack of progress sucked. A friend of mine said I should try more compound lifts and pointed me to a bodybuilding.com routine http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/wotw46.htm

Once I started on this, I've had a steady appetite increase which has been amazing. I really need to eat more and my body will almost tell me what I should eat whether it's carbs or fat or the like.

The biggest change that helped me the most was going to the gym 4 out of 7 days a week. Doing two or three days didn't cut it and the "endorphin" rush which is what I want the most would wear out.

Post: #23

This is one of the better all-around articles I've found on the subject:

http://www.acaloriecounter.com/building-muscle.php

Well worth reading through in my opinion.