Post: #1

The BBC posted this article today about how linguistic studies are confirming what we RVF members have been saying for a long time: society is becoming increasingly feminized:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-25232387

More men are adopting "chick-like" speech intonations, especially those annoying rising intonations at the end of sentences. My questions:

1. As more and more men become feminized and adopt feminine traits, what does this mean for game? Will beta become the new alpha?

2. Is "beta bait" game the wave of the future?

3. Will women be increasingly attracted to men who display "feminine" traits, in contrast to traditional game teachings?

This is an intriguing question. I got an email a few days ago from a Brazilian friend who lives near Sao Paolo. He says he's becoming increasingly disturbed by signs that women seem to be drawn to men who show feminine characteristics, like passivity, cattiness, gossiping, etc.

Post: #2

It's feminization. Fools gold. Unless there's a way to change things through epigentics, women will not be into these guys.

Every guy on here should be working towards getting a lower, deeper, more powerful voice. Use your diaphragm to talk, and workout to get it lower.

There's probably a big thread on the forum about this.

Post: #3

Yup. I did a thread on my own observations in this area almost two years ago:

Straight Guys with "Gay Voice"

Post: #4

Post: #5

This Brazilian dude I'm talking about was genuinely concerned about some of the things he's been seeing, and was asking me my opinion. This is the gist of what he said:

Conventional game has worked great for him. He studied the techniques of Badboy (primarily) and Mystery (secondarily). He's also a RVF member, but not very active. This guy is cool as hell, has a good job, lifts weights, has a proven track record, etc., etc. So, I trust his abilities.

But he said that he's noticed recently that traditional "alpha" behavior is not getting the rewards that it used to get. He is noticing that passive-aggressive betas seem to be doing well, or least better than they used to. He was wondering if he should be concerned.

I basically said, look, chief, you're not going to change female biology. And you have to be true to yourself. Don't try to be something you're not. Act masculine, own it, and if they don't like it, then move on.

All the same, he may have a point....or does he?

Post: #6

This is absolutely true.

One of the things that I find most repulsive in day-to-day life is dealing with what I privately call Vox Mangina.

It is a dreadful mix of female/geek/gay cadences that afflicts the speech of increasing numbers of seemingly normal and heterosexual young American males. I hear this all the time and it fucking drives me crazy.

It's not just or exclusively feminized speech. Like I said there are also elements of geek/nerd cadence -- which can be excusable and even lovable in actual dreadnought STEM geeks, but not in the kind of generalized smartphone geeks that these males are becoming. And there are elements of gay snarkiness and cattiness, which are yet again similar to, but distinct from, purely female cattiness.

These creatures travel in strange groups which are again a kind of ungainly compromise between gaggles of girls and packs of normal dudes in terms of spacing, body language and pace. And they converse in this unbearable grrrl-geek-fag patois which carries a long distance in the cold winter air of pre-war America.

Post: #7

I'm more concerned with men adopting female thought processes.

Post: #8

Nothing new, really. You could make the argument that every tenet of civilization is feminizing, but hey- there's a lot of good that goes along with it, too. Much less dysentery, for example. I enjoy the worm-free shitting.

Game evolves along with society, but the girls will always love a confident, cool guy who appears to have his shit together.

Post: #9

(12-06-2013 08:25 PM)Shotgun Styles Wrote:  I'm more concerned with men adopting female thought processes.

That's all well and good, but aren't speech and thought processes intimately connected? Is there not a causal relationship between the two?

Post: #10

(12-06-2013 08:50 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

(12-06-2013 08:25 PM)Shotgun Styles Wrote:  I'm more concerned with men adopting female thought processes.

That's all well and good, but aren't speech and thought processes intimately connected? Is there not a causal relationship between the two?

Indeed. There is no way to separate these things. Men that are feminized will speak, act, and think accordingly.

In fact, the speech patterns are worse because they show that some of this shit is happening on a hormonal level. Mere thought processes are relative trivia in comparison.

Post: #11

(12-06-2013 08:16 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  But he said that he's noticed recently that traditional "alpha" behavior is not getting the rewards that it used to get. He is noticing that passive-aggressive betas seem to be doing well, or least better than they used to. He was wondering if he should be concerned.

In the U.S., this has not been my experience.

I get more attention than ever before and if anything I am hyper masculine.

Girls are just becoming drawn to me. They even admit as such.

Post: #12

I listen to a lot of podcasts and I have notice more and more in the years the new hosts which are dudes, maybe a few years older than me in their 30s talk increasing feemish, and have femmish voice projections.

The Grantland network is littered with these types. Not sure what Bill Simmons sees in these dudes as hosts but a lot of them fit what I am talking about:




^^ Robert Mays is victim number #1 (White guy, host). I've actually never seen a video of this dude until I looked for a example now, wow, and its even more cringe worthy then I expected.

Most dudes you run into these days, especially here in PC-Land Toronto, sounds like Robert Mays in the video above, or they sound like thugs, or sometimes the worst mix of both.

Its the same thing with cell phone culture, dudes look like females obsessing on their iphones these days.

Post: #13

(12-06-2013 08:53 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

(12-06-2013 08:50 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

(12-06-2013 08:25 PM)Shotgun Styles Wrote:  I'm more concerned with men adopting female thought processes.

That's all well and good, but aren't speech and thought processes intimately connected? Is there not a causal relationship between the two?

Indeed. There is no way to separate these things. Men that are feminized will speak, act, and think accordingly.

In fact, the speech patterns are worse because they show that some of this shit is happening on a hormonal level. Mere thought processes are relative trivia in comparison.

You're both right and I agree. I'm just saying that speech patterns are merely a symptom of a much worse disease.

Post: #14

1. As more and more men become feminized and adopt feminine traits, what does this mean for game? Will beta become the new alpha?

Highly unlikely. women will always respond well to masculine men.


2. Is "beta bait" game the wave of the future? Again, unlikely.


3. Will women be increasingly attracted to men who display "feminine" traits, in contrast to traditional game teachings?

There may be a few statistical outliers, like women who are actually attracted to hipsters, but no women won't respond well to men who have feminine traits.

Quote:This is an intriguing question. I got an email a few days ago from a Brazilian friend who lives near Sao Paolo. He says he's becoming increasingly disturbed by signs that women seem to be drawn to men who show feminine characteristics, like passivity, cattiness, gossiping, etc.

I doubt women are actually attracted to those qualities, but the man was likely doing other things that already attracted her.

Post: #15

(12-06-2013 08:56 PM)kosko Wrote:  I listen to a lot of podcasts and I have notice more and more in the years the new hosts which are dudes, maybe a few years older than me in their 30s talk increasing feemish, and have femmish voice projections.

The Grantland network is littered with these types. Not sure what Bill Simmons sees in these dudes as hosts but a lot of them fit what I am talking about:




^^ Robert Mays is victim number #1 (White guy, host). I've actually never seen a video of this dude until I looked for a example now, wow, and its even more cringe worthy then I expected.

Most dudes you run into these days, especially here in PC-Land Toronto, sounds like Robert Mays in the video above, or they sound like thugs, or sometimes the worst mix of both.

Its the same thing with cell phone culture, dudes look like females obsessing on their iphones these days.

Great post, kosko.

Yes -- sports geeks which is what Grantland is are a perfect fucking example of this. They are part of this newish breed of not-actually-STEM mangina geekery which infests the culture.

I was looking for a good youtube of this but you nailed it.

(12-06-2013 08:56 PM)kosko Wrote:  Most dudes you run into these days, especially here in PC-Land Toronto, sounds like Robert Mays in the video above, or they sound like thugs, or sometimes the worst mix of both.

This is so brilliant an observation that I'd give you another +1 for this if I could. Dead serious.

Yes -- there is this weird new breed of whiny thugs or half-geeks half-thugs. It's so true. What's up with that??!!

And yeah, cellphones have a lot to do with this in a number of ways. It's not just the oversocialization which is so feminizing. Some of it is straight up mechanical/postural stuff. The postures that are adopted while looking down at a phone and texting, and constant thumb/fine muscle typing, are profoundly anti-androgenic. They have the opposite effects of contraposto type pro-androgenic standing postures. All these texting postures are natural to the female, not to the male.

Post: #16

"In the U.S., this has not been my experience.

I get more attention than ever before and if anything I am hyper masculine."

Same here.

Regardless if women stopped liking masculine behavior I'm not going to change.

Take it or leave it.

Post: #17

(12-06-2013 09:16 PM)McQueensPlayboyRules Wrote:  "In the U.S., this has not been my experience.

I get more attention than ever before and if anything I am hyper masculine."

Same here.

Regardless if women stopped liking masculine behavior I'm not going to change.

Take it or leave it.

Same here.

I have never done better.

And I have never really done too shabby.

Post: #18

Gay voice has one benefit. You can identify who you shouldn't be associating with as soon as you hear the uptalk. No need to investigate to find out that he's lacking a pair.

Post: #19

Even if this change was real, it wouldn't stop me. I know what I want.

(12-06-2013 08:16 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  He is noticing that passive-aggressive betas seem to be doing well, or least better than they used to.

I live in a college town and while I haven't had the success I wanted to this year, I have had the opportunity to go on dates with and hang out with some hot women. All of them have let me know in their own way, they want a man who can crush guys like this.

Post: #20

I agree with what you guys are saying here, and told my buddy the same thing: that he should not worry about that bullshit and just maintain his own frame. And believe me, this guy is no wuss. He's ripped, very goal-oriented, very intelligent, and is charming. Definitely alpha. He might just be going through a slump.

Anyway, this was what his email response to me was, below:


The years between 2007 and 2010 were probably the best period of my life in regard to women and dating. My progress was constant: the ability to read and interpret the interactions improved each time, I was getting better not only with the quantity of women I picked up, but specially with the quality (which is what truly matters the most to me).
Women I had approached would typically text or phone me, and getting sex after the initial contact (if successful) was a matter of time. They also submitted to my no bullshit attitude and gave me the best sexual experiences I had ever had.

I was learning a lot about women and the way the masculine and the feminine relate.
Not only that, I was also learning more about myself and the kind of women I really wanted.
Badboy´s method was a way to get in contact with my own masculinity and to finally let it come to surface in my actions.
It was, to sum it up, a pretty cool period of self discovery.
My specialty those days was the cold approach. I would typically start the night by approaching the most attractive chick in the place as a warm up (sometimes successfully) and my friends used to call me "the black leather jacket" LOL!

2010 arrived and I noticed my approaches weren´t so successful anymore. It was a very sudden change that was also confirmed by my friends.
Although I still kept progressing in terms of inner game and self discovery, my results were clearly worse than before, and I didn´t know why.

Only when I started using facebook did I come to the realization that social media had completely changed the game and rigged it in women´s favour.
In my opinion, it gives women so many options that a girl has absolutely no reason to chase after a guy, nor to withstand any kind of inconvenience.
Besides, it prevents the man from using tension and mystery to build attraction by taking his time to call back, as by then the attraction will be gone from all the guys approaching online.

I realized I could compete with other guys when it came to being masculine, but that I could never beat the internet.

Over time, I observed the rise of a new type of game based on building empty image and fame on social media.
I realized that guys were behaving very much like girls and that, as hard to believe as it was, it was working.

I´ve already tried to do that sort of thing, but I´m too much of a lone wolf to be fishing for attention on facebook. I feel like a sissy and an idiot doing it.

I recognize that Badboy´s method is based pretty much on eternal principles, but the issue is that masculinity, in my opinion, has been neutralized in a very large measure by technology. It has been devalued and made trivial.

Facebook allows and stimulates women to filter out the men and give them direct access to fame and money.

Frankly, I´m the first to admit that my type of game can be considered a thing of the past, but, like you said, in the end of the day you have to be able to look yourself in the mirror.


My opinion is that he's just going through a rough patch in his life. I can't believe women truly are going to go for wussified traits in men...
But part of me thinks there may be a grain of truth in some of his points.

Post: #21

Women talk to convey emotion.
Men talk to convey information.
Learn the difference

I speak with a masculine tone but there are select times when I'll take on the female tone and inflections. Mostly I do it to be funny or when I'm doing an impression of a common female friend. It's good for a laugh here and there. I also do the opposite. I'll use an overly masculine tone and say things that females would say. Use it as another tool in your Game toolbox.

Post: #22

(12-06-2013 08:01 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  The BBC posted this article today about how linguistic studies are confirming what we RVF members have been saying for a long time: society is becoming increasingly feminized:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-25232387

More men are adopting "chick-like" speech intonations, especially those annoying rising intonations at the end of sentences. My questions:

1. As more and more men become feminized and adopt feminine traits, what does this mean for game? Will beta become the new alpha?
It means that GAME is going to be even more necessary, and effective. It will need to be tailored specifically to individual situations obviously.

2. Is "beta bait" game the wave of the future?

Obviously not. This is like saying that if all the women in the world got tiny boobs and a flat ass, is flat-ass game gonna work?

No. Specific masculine traits such as dominance, purpose, tempered aggressiveness etc will still turn women on. Game will change, and how you display these purported Alpha characteristics will change. But considering that the female hamster has the full backing of the state and hypergamy has not been shamed(and even encouraged, at times) in all of its gore and glory, beta bait behavior will not work on a majority of populace.



3. Will women be increasingly attracted to men who display "feminine" traits, in contrast to traditional game teachings?

See, game will always evolve, because people and demographics change.
If all the men in the world had stellar game, then none of them would have game, so to speak.

The basic tenets of game will remain the same, but the manner in which they are expressed and how women and other men will react to them will actually determine whether "traditional" game teachings will be contrasted.

That being said, the MASSIVE emasculation of men and masculization of women may reach a tipping point, beyond which, sure, manly women may start going out with(and happily dominating) herbs, manginas and men who display feminine traits. But they will always, always want to be dominated by a powerful man,no matter how conditioned they are to believe that all men are whipping boys.

This is an intriguing question. I got an email a few days ago from a Brazilian friend who lives near Sao Paolo. He says he's becoming increasingly disturbed by signs that women seem to be drawn to men who show feminine characteristics, like passivity, cattiness, gossiping, etc.

That's quite alright.

Two biases here --

1-- Once you realize something(specially if its an "Aha!" moment), you start noticing that more often in your environment. That does not necessarily mean that it is happening more often, just that you're noticing more of what you were originally oblivious to.

2-- Women are drawn,not to men who show those characteristics, but specifically to the characteristics themselves. Most women in the world give in to cattiness and gossiping, and if unchecked and given freedom from judgement, will bring out their claws.
Being catty and gossiping WILL make them happy, and women are more influenced by mood and emotion then they are by logic,reason and a self-created purpose.

Also, specifically about guys adopting female speech patterns, that's in large part due to the mirroring effect isn't it?

Why do couples who have been together for a long time start sounding, thinking (and hell, even LOOKING) similar?
We pick up traits, mannerisms, speech patterns from people around us.
Given the internet and television, the massive feminizing culture(all the time harping about the big,bad Patriarchy) rampant on TV and the internet, the easy way of pedestalising the woman and not having a spine(because standing up and having contrary opinions to the tribe IS, in the beginning, an unsavory thing), its no wonder that men are adopting mannerisms that are inherently feminine.

Also because of a lack of(or at least, not enough accessibility to) Male Role Models

Most men know what it is to be a Man, it is embedded deep inside the psyche. But the current anti-male culture, a distinct lack of self-awareness, the omnipresence of porn and almost ZERO challenge in daily life has the effect of keeping the masculine tendencies deep, deep inside.

You'll notice that men who have had to scruff and fight and claw their way through life are definitely more manly.
Challenge, and suffering are vital to growth, and given the sheltered lives of a lot of these males, they are not much more than sheep, following each other in circles.

To the extent of adopting female speech patterns, and eventually behavioral and thought patterns as well.

But there will always be pain, suffering and the innate human drive for survival.
So alphas will always be born, forged, and conquer.
And game will always be there, if only in different forms.

Alpha is, ultimately, a state of mind.

There have always been effeminate alphas, over-the-top dominating alphas, uncaring alphas, wicked sadistic alphas, weird alphas, charming alphas, chivalrous alphas.

The problem with men adopting female speech patterns is that over time, these men will start changing their way of thinking (a reverse "Fake it till you make it"), and that will become a major problem.

Post: #23

"You'll notice that men who have had to scruff and fight and claw their way through life are definitely more manly."

^This to a T.

Post: #24

We need more audio/video examples.

I feel like I've noticed this before, but as my own voice sounds "vaguely assholish" it's hard to imagine.

Post: #25

It's sort of interesting when you're the opposite. As very fashionable guy (not in the business suit sense either - although I can do that) with a straight personality, I've noticed another paradox. It's completely acceptable to imply a straight guy is gay (especially if he's just a bit too stylish), but you cannot point out that an obviously gay guy is gay, then it becomes an issue and you're probably being offensive. I've said before, but hipsters for whatever reason get some sort of free pass and aren't as likely to be called gay as a stylish non-hipster male is, given each have similar voice/mannerisms.

In the midwest, if you're a very stylish guy and you have a completely straight voice - people get confused. If anything, it makes them mad. Then again, the midwest should stick to what they do best, their generally insufferable culture, college football, fatness, and beer pong.