Post: #1

So I link my roommate with a video of Rosebudd Bitterdose talking about game. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrKPZC5ZLrA)

Ensues a short conversation where my roommate says:

"you can have confidence without considering women second class citizens...seems to me that way.. well from the video thats the impression i had"

"if you have a woman and you lie to her to fuck her, thinking its OK to lie to her, you are treating her with low standards AKA second class citizen"

"if you tell her i love you you are my only one while fucking 5 other woman
thats treating the woman as second class citizen"

.........

Now my roommate sees me drag in new girls all the time. He knows imma tell a girl whatever the fuck she's trying to hear. I personally have no moral problems lying to women in order to fuck them. However when he indirectly tells me that "I treat women as second class citizens", for some reason it gets to me, because I feel I don't. I treat all my girls with respect, I'm always clear about my intentions and never leave them broken hearted.

I don't believe women are second class citizens, or inferior to men.
I do believe we are different however. Now if I understand those differences and take advantage of them, does it make me a bad person?

Like I told him... if it's not me, without a doubt, somebody else will.

Post: #2

My guess is that your roommate doesn't get much pussy.

It seems guys that will hate on you for such a topic are just jealous of your success in a way.

I know this because when I wasn't successful with girls I'd hate on guys that were, and rationalize it by saying 'yeah well they are dicks and don't fully respect women like they should'. Blue pill thinking.

Now when I hear about a guy lying to have sex with the girl, I understand it as part of the game sometimes. And it often doesn't even carry a consequence. I've heard here before on the forum of guys lying about their age before sex and when the girl finds out about it after the bang she doesn't even care.

One of the more meaningful quotes to me from 'The Game' was:

"it's not lying. it's flirting."

Oftentimes I lie about a bunch of shit. I tell them I'm a part time actor when I'm not working out in space as an astronaut, or something spontaneously ridiculous. If she likes my vibe she will go along with it.

The key to this morality issue is how you make the girl feel. Blue pill guys go with the knowledge of 'lying is deceitful and would avoid trying this stuff out. But what really matters is triggering that positive emotional response in the girl. She doesn't care if you're making shit up, as long as you're making her feel good.

Post: #3

You gotta sell these bitches the dream

Post: #4

Not trying to marry these girls, so who cares if you lie?
Heck, they wear their lies, makeup, pushup padded bras, stomach leotard (whatever its called), all to lie to your eyes. So it's ok to lie to their ears.

Post: #5

Dating is so stacked in her favor
- fashion and beauty industry
- advice industry and social convention
- legal and cultural norms

All we do is even the odds a little bit by working out, dressing better, and talk to her in a language that she responds to. And at best we move from a single digit success rate to maybe one in three or two out of five.

Even a male celebrity doesn't have the same sexual options as run of the mill cute 19 year old.

If anything, they hoard all of the wealth and dole out a few pennies here and there. And to get a glimpse a man must best all other competitors.

Who's the second class citizen?

Post: #6

Your roommate needs to get on an online dating site and meet a couple of those women in person. He'll quickly realize that the women are lying/misinterpreting themselves at an alarming rate compared to most guys that I know.

Post: #7

Be careful taking morality advice from pimps.

Pimp morality is different from "regular" morality.

Morality is very subjective.

Post: #8

Typical "good guy" naivete...believing that women are paragons of purity and that male courtship hasn't changed since 1909. In my experience, the only way someone like that will change and start accepting truths about women is if they get blind-sided by reality so blatantly that they're forced to reexamine how they see things. Failing that, however, the old myths will probably prove too lustrous to abandon.

Post: #9

(01-13-2014 02:22 PM)FrenchCanadian Wrote:  However when he indirectly tells me that "I treat women as second class citizens", for some reason it gets to me, because I feel I don't. I treat all my girls with respect, I'm always clear about my intentions and never leave them broken hearted.

The old tyme condemnation of the player was that he exploited the weaknesses of women to take their virginity, thus destroying their future. Obviously none of that shit is relevant anymore, women are now free to slut it up as much as they want and are often more commitment-averse than men when they're at their peak.

If a girl is DTF and you prudently decide not to risk her retarded biases fucking it up by omitting or embellishing some stupid shit about your job or your age or whatever that has no real bearing on her life whatsoever, what exactly have you taken from her? Does having a vagina entitle her to know absolutely everything she might ever want to know about you on demand? Ask your friend if a woman who doesn't truthfully tell you how many dicks she's taken before yours is having sex with you under false pretenses. The shit he's saying is both naive and hysterical.

Now, naturally, the contemporary crime of the archetypal player isn't stealing a girl's sex but rather stealing her heart or what have you. Or in real-world terms: offering her something (long term commitment and/or being a provider) that you have no intention of actually following through on. I'd say that kind of lie fits the bill of what your friend is saying. Your willingness to enter into a committed relationship with her obviously DOES have significant bearing on her life and well-being. Lying about that is quite clearly unethical since you are purposely compelling her to unknowingly act against her own best interests by not telling her the score. You specifically said that you don't do that. So how exactly are you harming these women?

That's exactly what I'd tell your friend: the shit you lie about isn't really any of her business and doesn't affect her either way. When it actually counts you act in a principled manner and give her the information she needs to decide what is best for her, respecting her agency as a person.

Your friend would benefit from a little more perspective.

Post: #10

Cue Women Lie, Men Lie hip-hop song.

Women wear push-up bras: is this lying?

Women wear makeup: is this lying?

Women compliment each other and then stab each other in the back: is this lying?

Women will lie to you in your face without blinking and will even cry while doing so: is this lying?

Women will love you one day and tell you "You have a huge dick!", then decide they don't love you anymore, break up with you 1 week later and tell you "You have a tiny dick!": is this lying?

Post: #11

He sounds like me back when I was a teenager watching One Tree Hill, thinking what I was seeing on TV was how it should be. He'll learn.

Post: #12

Telling a girl that you love her and she is the only one is neither game nor is it necessary in this day.

It sounds like your roommate doesn't know shit about shit, so not sure why you care.

Post: #13

"Second class citizen" is feminist lingo

Invite a girl over, finger her in your room , and after she leaves, shove your fingers under your roommates nose and yell "Does this smell like a second class citizen!

Post: #14

Answer: Women are second class citizens.

But seriously, I never understood why blue pillers equate game with lying, when in fact it seems to be the most honest way to get girls. You know, as opposed to the beta method of talking to a girl under the guise of friendship because the fear of immediate rejection from some Jenny Jane is too much to handle. At least us red pill types give the girl the option to reject us and have no bad feelings, as opposed to beta Ben who the girl feels horrible turning down his pathetic attempts at long game friendship.

Post: #15

If you're finding virgins and gassing up their heads with promises of marriage just to fuck them, then yes, you are a bit of a scumbag. That's not really what game is, though.

Beta game is much more dishonest that what most RVF guys are running.

Post: #16

I'd really like to know a specific example of lying that game teaches. I've been devouring the CH archives this week, and I can't think of an instance when "lying" was said to be a tenant of game. In fact, you could say that complete honesty is the biggest part of game. I guess if you want to call indirect game "lying", in the sense that you don't really care where the pet shop is, then sure, we're all "liars".

Post: #17

(01-13-2014 02:57 PM)commiejoe Wrote:  Not trying to marry these girls, so who cares if you lie?
Heck, they wear their lies, makeup, pushup padded bras, stomach leotard (whatever its called), all to lie to your eyes. So it's ok to lie to their ears.

Quote of the day. My future sig.

Post: #18

To be honest, I don't sell hopes or dreams to these girls. They are mostly online pickups anyways, my intentions are always pretty straight.

My roommate is into economics, business, and he's very rational and money hungry... so we get along on a basis of things.
But yes, he is an Omega/IT Nerd/Libertarian, who hasn't been around many women in his life. (no siblings, raised by a single father ect)
He is very stuck up on moral stuff, about doing the "right" thing, yet he goes "out in the real world" very little. He works on his computer all day and complains about the government stealing him.

And to the "women lie also" argument, he simply tells me that "it doesn't justify it."

Even though I partially agree with him on that, I think he is, what I'd call in french a "Sophiste" (Sophist?) He is smart and keeps himself well educated... he loves to spark debates and to be controversial, but argues mostly with rhetoric.

Anyhow, I've learned to dismiss a lot of stuff coming from him, especially anything that has to do with women. However, on moral codes of conduct and philosophy in general we've had good conversations.

Thanks for the quality replies, feels good to hear others say what I also think. This forum impresses me yet again.

Post: #19

I think what your friend objects to is not something he's articulating well.

The type of game that is preached on this forum and in the player community is not a deceptive one. We aren't outright lying to women about our careers or making ourselves out to be Rockstars when that isn't really true.

What I think your friend is uncomfortable with is the formulaic basis with which we deal with women. Often our ideas ignore their individuality and downplay their agency in the dating process. We don't treat them as special and unique or even as capable of making rational decisions about who they spread their legs for.

Game says that if you behave in a way that could be described as the "Primeval Man," women will be attracted to you and naturally assume the submissive role.

Men who we often describe as "blue pill," "AFC's," or "plugged into the matrix" will fight this idea. To them it is an oversimplification of human nature.

To boil this down, I think your friend believes it's dishonest that we go through the same formula for a new girl as we did for the previous ones. It's not exactly romantic that we continually steer the interaction in our favor by having the insight that we do.

It seems like a cheat, a hack, a deception. It's not. It's recognition of the truth.

Post: #20

People will hate you for having game, deal with it. I've had some people who I considered close to me becoming hostile towards me because I know and get things that they don't. With time you'll develop a sense for a difference between genuine critique of your behavior and a jealous rant caused by your success. You'll have to risk some valuable things (friendships, comfort zone, being part of "the herd") in order to get the knowledge about something that is taboo and not (consciously) approved by majority.

Post: #21

There is no moral phenomena, only interpretation of moral phenomena. Move Beyond Good and Evil.

Post: #22

Quote:"if you have a woman and you lie to her to fuck her, thinking its OK to lie to her, you are treating her with low standards AKA second class citizen"

This is a very common Beta/White knight excuse. In their minds, all sex happens by lying to a woman in an explicit conversation, as if she were a 14th century maiden and the man promised her to marry her so that she would sleep with him, then dumped her.

In reality, the woman decides to fuck him without asking at all, or even considering it for a moment. If there can be said to be any decision point, it is far before this: when the woman has decided to be attracted to game and preselection above shyness or politeness.

This truth, however, is utterly lost on white knights. They still imagine only fair maidens tricked by evil players who falsely said that they loved them to get sex, because that's all they have been taught.

Post: #23

Worry less about what lying does to the bitch and more about what it does to you.

Look, we're all pretty selfish in some ways - we come first before anything else.

Lying about anything not only affects others, it affects yourself. Some people are probably impervious. But for most of us normal guys, lying about anything will register in your psyche, and you'll pay for it somehow.

You might be a bit more anxious the next day when she wakes up and you have to remember which lies to keep track of. You might feel bad (it's clear from this thread that some of us do) about telling a bitch what she wants to hear.

There was a good Joe Rogan podcast about this, at least part of one, where Joe ranted about the definition of success in Western societies. I.e., some people get to the top by lying, but they pay for it in other ways. Lie to get what you want and there will be some person out there that HATES you. Lie to get laid and it will register with the bitch and with yourself, she will know on an intuitive level that you had to lie to get laid, and so will you. In a small way, for most normal people, it eats away and gnaws at the psyche.

For game purposes, if you lie or flirt, I don't see it as a huge issue if you keep it light-hearted and fun. No, you're not an astronaut, but who gives a fuck? Smash that pussy.

Post: #24

I lie sometimes about how much I make as a novelist, without actually putting a number down. I tease. Mislead. Deceive by omission.

I never tell them that in order to make bank as a novelist (say, six figures), one needs to have a minimum of 15-20 NOVELS. They don't know this. And I don't tell them. They see my covers and think I'm Cussler or Barker (ha!). It has worked for me thus far but sometimes my imagination runs and i think she knows, and I tell myself she doesn't. It's just that old writer's self-doubt kicking in before the bang. I have to suppress it and forge ahead just like with writing.

She doesn't seem to realize that she is about to bang a guy who makes up stories for a living.

Post: #25

Almost everything anyone says is a lie to some extent.