Post: #1

While I was lifting today, I glanced over at the handfuls of people who were running around on treadmills and stair masters.

I always wondered to myself, what is the point of all of this running? Don't these people get that excessive cardio doesn't help with weight loss or maintenance?

I then though back to a time before I was lifting and I did a lot of running. It dawned on me that cardio feels good because it literally feels like I am running from something bad (stating the obvious).

When I started lifting, I used to groan about how difficult it was. Initially, the weights defeated me. I stood in front of them like half a man. Almost ready to accept defeat, I decided to stick to it and show the bastard pieces of iron who is boss.

Sure enough, the weights started getting heavier and I started getting stronger. For the first time ever, I stood firm and did not back down. I stayed and fought and as the battle for muscle hypertrophy continues, I am confident that nothing will impede me.

It should be said, that cardio is as important as strength training. In terms of fight or flight, it is good sometimes to cut your losses and run. Gotta live another day. With balance between these two, you can gain the ability to decide which risks you want to take and others you want to give up on. Without risk there is no glory and without flight you won't live another day.

Discuss

Post: #2

Running isn't a bad idea, I just wouldn't over do it. No more than 2-3 miles in a session once or twice a week.

As usual, Jamie Lewis on Chaos and Pain has sound advice concerning long distance running (or "chronic cardio"). The general idea is that long distance running fucks with your stress hormones and makes you go catabolic. If you want to lose weight and still want to do "cardio", you should walk, carry heavy shit, or sprint.

I don't know what causes a runner's high, but I wouldn't use it as justification for running. Smoking cigarettes makes me feel good, but it sure as hell isn't good for me. Same with drinking soda or binge eating.

Anecdotal aside. I've got an uncle who has woken up early every morning for the last fifteen years to run five miles in order to "stay in shape". It wasn't until about four years ago that I learned this and he has gotten fatter and weaker ever since. If you saw him on the street, you wouldn't never be able to know he does it. He isn't all that old, but he looks at least five years older than he is. Doesn't drink, doesn't smoke either.

Additionally, every distance runner track girl that I've fucked has had the worst mobility in the legs and hips and the ropiest muscle tone. One in particular couldn't even do a bodyweight squat because her hamstrings were so tight.


Run and you'll only die tired the logic, the science, and the evidence part 1, 2, and 3.

Post: #3

Boxers and other combat fighters do a hell of a lot of cardio, and I wouldn't call them unhealthy or doing 'pointless' exercise.

Comparing chasing a runner's high to drinking soda or smoking is ridiculous man! I do agree though that JUST cardio with no resistance training isn't always productive.

Post: #4

Boxers and other combat fighters aren't doing 15 miles every other day. There's a huge difference between conditioning drills and plodding away on the treadmill for an hour. I'm not really talking about combat athletes, mostly the casual gym goers who decide that their weight lifting program needs to be balanced out with an hour of running afterwards.

Post: #5

(02-20-2014 01:14 PM)Teedub Wrote:  I do agree though that JUST cardio with no resistance training isn't always productive.

That's what I was getting at. I know people who only do cardio and nothing else. It's important to have a healthy mix of the two.

Post: #6

(02-20-2014 01:22 PM)Hannibal Wrote:  Boxers and other combat fighters aren't doing 15 miles every other day. There's a huge difference between conditioning drills and plodding away on the treadmill for an hour. I'm not really talking about combat athletes, mostly the casual gym goers who decide that their weight lifting program needs to be balanced out with an hour of running afterwards.

Carl Froch does 6 miles every day, that's quite a lot. However he only ever does 6, and he just tries to do it quicker all the time. I think he runs it in about 36 mins, which is the same length as a match.

Post: #7

Bruce Lee ran 3 miles everyday.

All professional boxers run.

If you keep your heart rate between 135-145 you will burn only fat and no muscle while improving your aerobic capacity.

Lifting is the shit but don't sleep on aerobic activity. Balance is key.

Post: #8

(02-20-2014 01:22 PM)Hannibal Wrote:  Boxers and other combat fighters aren't doing 15 miles every other day.

Some of them do tremendous amounts of running and other similar low intensity cardio like skipping rope, rolling, swims, shadowboxing time adds up to over 15 miles eod.

Quote:"Every morning 15 km running then 5 km in the evening. - Fedor

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/5/13/147...skol-every

Quote:When I ask him (Diaz) what he does for fun besides look up weird shit on the internet, he gives me a one-word answer: triathlons.

http://www.fightmagazine.com/mma-magazine/12948-226/

Quote:Buakao follows a very arduous training regime that sees him get up at 6:00 AM for a 12 kilometer run which is then followed by pad and bag work and conditioning exercises.

http://www.8weeksout.com/phpBB3/viewtopi...0564e92e25

Quote:I always said I had this hidden reservoir of strength and power and it came from running. - Sugar Ray Leonard

http://www.runnersworld.com/celebrity-ru...ay-leonard

Post: #9

I know Long slow distance has fallen out of favour recently, but it is an important part of the puzzle as there are certain adaptations that only come from running distance (or doing some other activity at and equal intensity and duration). All Thai camps I've been in run about 10km a day. Most pro boxers also run LSD.

I know that the best I've ever performed in boxing was when I was running 10km and up 6 days per week, whereas when I experimented with interval training, I got tired easier in the ring. Also, it does help with weight management, without being too taxing for other more important training.

Here's a great thread by Joel Jameson (a top mma strength and conditioning coach), where he explains this in more detail. An interesting read for those interested in s & c. Read only the posts from EZA (Joel Jameson) and don't bother with the other posters though.

http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f14/myt...ng-965299/

Quote from the thread:

""The anaerobic-glycolytic system is only going to sustain energy production for a couple of minutes so the oxidative system has to take up the slack til the end of the round, and then work to recover the anaerobic systems during the rest period"

No this is not how energy systems work in the real word and is largely a belief that stems from the totally misleading energy system charts found in most physiology textbooks. The glycolytic system does not "sustain energy production" but rather it contributes to it in conjunction with the aerobic and alactic systems.

Energy production is never fully sustaind by anaerobic energy production because when the lactic system is being used it means the aerobic system is also working at its maximum capacity. Your viewpoint of how these systems work together is incorrect.

"Charlie francis developed world class sprinters from a young age and maintained that "endurance work must be carefully limited to light/light-medium volumes to prevent the conversion of transitional or intermediate muscle fiber to red, endurance muscle fiber". This goes for any explosive-based, intermittent sport athlete; not just sprinters."

A) there is very little to no direct evidence fibers shift from slow to fast or fast to slow, but rather they can alter their meta bolic properties in favor of oxidative or glycoltyic meta bolism and they can of course change their cross section area, and their contractile properties through changes in nervous system function. It is the nervous system that determines contractile velocities as studies have shown if switch innervation between fast and slow fibers their behaviors reverse.

B) Charlie Francis works with athletes who are almost purely alactic, of course he's concerned with only the highest threshold fibers and of course he wants them as glycolytic as possible. This is not what you'd want in a fighter, or even remotely close to it. Fighting is a single max effort 10s sprint, you need fast twitch oxidative glycolytic fibers, not just fast twitch glycolytic fibers. These fibers are still capable of tremendous power output and yet they can still derive ATP oxidatively.

"Yes maintaing 14mph for 2 hours is amazing, but it's the amount of highly oxidative red fibres that endurance athletes posess that allows them to maintain this pace. Would those guys even be able to go 3 minutes on the pads with a striking coach? They'd certainly struggle"

This is total nonsense. Marathon runners certainly have higher percentage o oxidative red fibers but the key to their endurance is that their fast twitch fibers are also incredibly oxidative and thus there is no real lactate accumulation even at relatively high power outputs.

If you think a marathon runner couldn't hit the pads for 3 minutes you're fooling yourself, they certainly wouldn't have the same power as an MMA fighter and would lack technique but they would have no problem doing a 3 minute round. Obviously specificity comes into play here, but they are still capable of tremendous oxygen supply by the cardiovascular system.

Also, MMA athletes are really not explosive athletes I hate to tell you. Compare their power outputs to real power athletes like weightlifters, shot putters and throwers, jumpers, football players, etc. and it's not even remotely close. Obviously MMA requires high power at times, but MMA is a power-endurance sport not anywhere close to a pure power sport.

I've trained many of the best athletes in the sport and can show you definitely with tests that their alactic and lactic power isn't even in the same ballpark as world class power athletes. Even top level NBA players, can generate above 6w/kg in pure alactic power while the best MMA I've ever seen is in the high 4s and low 5s. Comparing lactic power of MMA compared to explosive lactic athletes isn't even remotely close either. I don't think you have quite the right viewpoint on the energy system devlopment needs of MMA.


"The only way to really solve this is to carry out a study on fighters comparing differnet methods of energy systems development. Until then, most of this is really speculation."

No, the way to do this is to have over 6 years of direct tests of energy system development from a wide range of fighters and that's exactly what I have. I can show you direct and indirect tests measuring aerobic, anaerobic, and alactic development profiles of over 50 top level and amateur fighters over the last 6 years and their responses to various training methods as well as correlation to performance using heart rate variability, differential ECG, etc. This is hardly just speculation on my part. If you'd like to learn more you'll probably want to buy my book that's just about to be released, I cover all this in detail in there."

Post: #10

I've been on and off about treadmills but lately have found that interval training on them can give an invigorating workout. I like to alternate between running/walking at an incline. Running at an incline burns a shit ton of calories, activates more muscles, gets your heart rate up pretty high, and also helps with speed. Most runners incorporate hill training in their regimens.

Post: #11

Sprints. I'm looking forward to warm weather when I can do them again. I like doing them on a hill or a football pitch. They are good for your hormonal balance. From what I've read, it seems that running long distances very often (i.e. jogging several miles) is not.

Post: #12

Well I disagree here with the OP based on my first boxing session this week.

For the past 15 months I've been lifting and doing some HIIT. Sprints up hills and fast hiking. Before going into the boxing gym I considered myself in pretty good shape. And I look like it. Shit I look in better shape than some of the wiry ass kids in the boxing gym. I looked good with gloves on working on the bag.

That was Monday and it's Thursday and I'm still down for the count. Tuesday and Wednesday I couldn't even walk because my calves were completely torn up from jump rope and sidestepping around the ring. I might be okay to go in tomorrow. None of my weightlifting could have prepared me for what these guys had me doing on Monday, and I was sweating harder than I can ever remember. I felt like a child learning how to walk again.

My point being that lifting develops slow-twitch muscle fibers, and that's great and all, but that's only one part of fitness. I have a whole newfound appreciation for well-balanced athletes and plyometrics.

To equate cardio=flight is just plain wrong; who gives a shit how strong you are unless you can land something on your opponent or move quickly during a grapple. And if you were to put the two disciplines head to head, I'd say the guy doing box jumps would have a huge fight advantage over the heavy lifter any day.

Post: #13

This silly hatred of "cardio" comes from people who read too much into Slowing Strength and Weak Lifts. Better aerobic fitness will improve your work capacity for lifting and your sports.

Sure, mindless jogging is boring and unproductive. The key is simply to move around a lot, like our ancestors used to. How you do that depends on the sport you choose.

Personally my "cardio" is playing recreational sports or doing mini-Tough Mudder events on week nights / weekends with friends, among other things.

Quote:My point being that lifting develops slow-twitch muscle fibers, and that's great and all, but that's only one part of fitness.

Nope, it develops both types (guess what top level weightlifters and powerlifters, like sprinters - who also lift a lot - have more of), but that depends on your genetics and how you train. The recently popular internet routines like the ones I mentioned above have people lift slowly* and that doesn't make them more athletic.

* When all you do is grinding out x5 reps regardless and you're encouraged to drink a gallon of milk if progress stalls, you're developing a slow fat unathletic person.

Quote:That was Monday and it's Thursday and I'm still down for the count. Tuesday and Wednesday I couldn't even walk because my calves were completely torn up from jump rope and sidestepping around the ring. I might be okay to go in tomorrow. None of my weightlifting could have prepared me for what these guys had me doing on Monday, and I was sweating harder than I can ever remember. I felt like a child learning how to walk again.

This is just your body adapting to a new stimulus. With your previous training background, you'll get into shape far more quickly than others. Typically it takes 4-6 weeks for an athlete to get into shape for the season of his chosen sport, so it's normal that you get wiped out as you try a new sport for the first time.

Equally, I can take one of the boxing kids and throw him in some bs lifting circuit I pull out of my arse and wreck him for the next month. That doesn't make me a good coach, however, if he doesn't recover and adapt within a reasonable time frame.

Post: #14

I don't understand people who say that running is feeling good and lifting weights is hard. For me the opposite is true. I hate running it makes me feel like shit, tired and weak, also it is monotonous, long, boring, exhausting and uninspiring, especially if done in a treadmill in gym where no change of scenery happens. What is runners high ? i have never felt such thing, I am just glad it is over. Lifting however is fun and diverse and makes me feel good, I love the pump and the occasional soreness. Lifting provides me with small victories and progresses almost every time in various lifts and various muscles, while in running only one metric increases and it takes the whole training session to measure it while progress in lifting can be measured after a single rep or simply can be seen on body as bigger muscles. Lifting makes me feel strong and sexy, because it makes me strong and sexy.

Moderate running is beneficial trough so I do it. I do sprints like lifting - I run reps of sets of short distances. But long distance running is absolutely unappealing to me.

Post: #15

To guys saying that you need big endurance to win a boxing or a MMA fight - this is true in artificial sports fights, which have rounds and referees to make the show artificially longer and interesting for the audience.

In real life fights last a few seconds, maybe up to a minute and the stronger guy usually wins if the fight is simply not decided by who strikes first. That is in that one case out of ten where the smallest guy hasn't chickened out of a fight and given in to the demands of the bigger guy.

Post: #16

High intensity cardio is the best form of cardio.

Post: #17

(02-21-2014 05:57 AM)Avon Barksdale Wrote:  High intensity cardio is the best form of cardio.

There is no best form of cardio. Each produces a different adaptation in the body.

I champion lsd to anyone that will listen because, although it has fallen out of favour, it is the only effective way to build a good aerobic base. By performing lsd at moderate intensity for long periods you are able to stretch the heart (eccentric hypertrophy of the left ventricle), so that it becomes able to pump more blood around the body (thus delivering more oxygen). You don't get this adaptation at higher intensity, because the volume of blood per beat is too low to stretch the left ventricle).

Also, if you are participating in boxing etc., then you are getting plenty of anaerobic interval training just by working the pads and bags (especially if you are doing punch out drills), and this has the added benefit of being sport specific.

In my experience, low intensity steady state running is the best supplementary training to any fighting sport (along with some basic strength work). I'd encourage anyone in these sports to try it for themselves, because it really works.

Post: #18

(02-21-2014 04:47 AM)Mage Wrote:  To guys saying that you need big endurance to win a boxing or a MMA fight - this is true in artificial sports fights, which have rounds and referees to make the show artificially longer and interesting for the audience.

In real life fights last a few seconds, maybe up to a minute and the stronger guy usually wins if the fight is simply not decided by who strikes first. That is in that one case out of ten where the smallest guy hasn't chickened out of a fight and given in to the demands of the bigger guy.

The aerobic system is contributing massively to any activity lasting beyond 10 seconds (see quote from Joel Jameson below).

While I agree that most fights last only a few seconds, I have still been in plenty that lasted up to a minute or more due to involvement of several people. Also, do people really want to neglect an important component of fitness, simply because most fights don't very long? You still need to train a lot to be able to win fights, and good look being able to put in much time training in the boxing gym without a decent aerobic base.

"There are so many articles these days floating around out there claiming you need to rely on lactic system for MMA and the aerobic system is overrated. Anyone who is making that claim is dead wrong and doesn't know what they are talking about!

Also, the idea that the aerobic system doesn't contribute to energy production for the first 1-2 minutes of exercise is completely false. Even at 100% execise intensity, in as little as 30 seconds the latest research has shown it is contributing up to 50% of the total ATP being regenerated. After that it obviously goes up to an even higher percentage.

People also need to realize that when the lactic system is working it inherently means that the aerobic system is working at 100% of its capacity. It doesn't stop working just because lactic metabolism is also contributing."

Additionally:

"Also, both of the anaerobic systems are largely influenced and limited by genetics. Neither the lactic or alactic have a very large margin for improvement, it is the aerobic system that has tremendous ability to adapt and increase how much power it can generate."

Also posted this above:

""The anaerobic-glycolytic system is only going to sustain energy production for a couple of minutes so the oxidative system has to take up the slack til the end of the round, and then work to recover the anaerobic systems during the rest period"

No this is not how energy systems work in the real word and is largely a belief that stems from the totally misleading energy system charts found in most physiology textbooks. The glycolytic system does not "sustain energy production" but rather it contributes to it in conjunction with the aerobic and alactic systems.

Energy production is never fully sustaind by anaerobic energy production because when the lactic system is being used it means the aerobic system is also working at its maximum capacity. Your viewpoint of how these systems work together is incorrect."

Post: #19

Another great quote from the thread. Anybody interested in S & C or involved in a fighting sport should really read it:

"While this is correct according to many textbooks, it's not necessarily how it plays out in the context of real world energy production. The notion that one system turns on after another and provides the majority of energy in a sequential fashion is simply wrong.

From the onset of all high intensity exercise all the energy systems are contributing to one degree or another. The oxidative system is providing energy at all levels and all intensities of exercise, and is working at it's maximum rate at the highest levels of anaerobic energy production. There is simply not any kind of linear system activation as many textbooks make it seem.

There is plenty of newer research to show that this isn't the case and that the aerobic contributes a great deal of energy even within the first 1-2 minutes of any high intensity exercise. I'll dig up some of the studies and post a link.

It's also important to realize that while yes on an individual muscle fiber level the alactic system is only capable of regenerating ATP for 10 seconds, the body is not a single muscle fiber and every fiber in the body is never contracting all at once. When one motor unit or a group of motor unit fatigues and runs out of alactic substrates, there are still other motor units than then come into play while the first group can oxidatively phosophoralated to then fire alactically again. In this way the alactic system can provide energy for much longer than just 10 seconds.

The way the textbooks describe energy production is simply a very poor view of what happens in the real world"

Post: #20

(02-21-2014 08:29 AM)Kieran Wrote:  

(02-21-2014 05:57 AM)Avon Barksdale Wrote:  High intensity cardio is the best form of cardio.

There is no best form of cardio. Each produces a different adaptation in the body.

I champion lsd to anyone that will listen because, although it has fallen out of favour, it is the only effective way to build a good aerobic base. By performing lsd at moderate intensity for long periods you are able to stretch the heart (eccentric hypertrophy of the left ventricle), so that it becomes able to pump more blood around the body (thus delivering more oxygen). You don't get this adaptation at higher intensity, because the volume of blood per beat is too low to stretch the left ventricle).

Also, if you are participating in boxing etc., then you are getting plenty of anaerobic interval training just by working the pads and bags (especially if you are doing punch out drills), and this has the added benefit of being sport specific.

In my experience, low intensity steady state running is the best supplementary training to any fighting sport (along with some basic strength work). I'd encourage anyone in these sports to try it for themselves, because it really works.

I have been doing Insanity which, has helped me get some pretty good results. High Intensity Cardio is a big part of it