I think the main problem is not within the religions ( who are quite fine), but more about the credulity of the masses, who do not even bother questioning them. Too many priests from either religion exploit it to justify their own projects.

Whatever you believe in(or not believe) , make sure you study at least a bit other religions, and yours...
I facepalm equally when I hear someone saying excision is allowed by Islam, or that you are a Muslim and you go to Paradise if your parents are too...

I actually think it would have been more badass if he was shot just once, as if to say, "You aren't even worth wasting bullets on."

(03-16-2014 03:00 PM)bojangles Wrote:  Weird conversation. By the way Christian terrorists? The UK has suffered at the hands of those. Roman Catholic they were, and yes that was in the last 50 years.

I disagree there. The IRA were not Christian terrorists. They were just a group of people who wanted the British to leave Northern Ireland.

They happened to be mainly Catholic. But they were not fighting in the name of Christianity - unlike the Islamic jihadists. Although to be fair - Bin Laden doesn't really hate the West. He just wanted US troops to leave Saudi Arabia (which they did do after 9/11). And ideally - for the US to stop supporting Israel as well.

But funnily enough - having US troops stationed in Saudi Arabia was the main point of anger for Bin Laden. Although even today - most people are unaware of that.

In the run up to the first Iraq war - Bin Laden approached the Saudi Arabian government and offered to offer military support for the country.

Iraq had just invaded Kuwait - and Kuwait (along with Iraq) borders Saudi Arabia. And since Iraq was looking to conquer Kuwait for it's oil - it made sense for Saudi Arabia to be concerned as well.

Anyway - Bin Laden had managed to organise a group of fighters who beat the Soviet Union in the Afghanistan war (of the 1980s). So Bin Laden was in a position to make a serious offer of providing security for the country.

It was not to be. Saudi Arabia told him to take his religious fanatics to Sudan and fuck off. And even offered to fund al Qaeda - as long as Bin Laden never kept all the Islamic radicals together and fighting anybody but Saudi Arabia.

Instead - Saudi Arabia agreed to an American request to have US troops on the Saudi Arabia border.

Having US infidals stationed in Saudi Arabia (the Holy Land according to Islam) enraged Bin Laden. And was the main grudge he had against America.

He couldn't give a fuck about western culture since he was a soccer fan, his favourite TV show was 'The Wonder Years' (as is mine - by the way!) and he loved the music of Whitney Houston. And even talked of kidnapping her and marrying her.

Anyway - it is little known that having US troops stationed in Saudi Arabia was the main reason behind 9/11. But on top of that - the US troops left Saudi Arabia in 2003. So - Bin Laden did manage to achieve one of his aims.

And not only that - it is probably the case that the US only felt comfortable leaving Saudi Arabia - once Saddam Hussain had been removed from power.

Which means that - in a roundabout way - the Iraq war was arranged in order to ultimately give Bin Laden what he wanted.

So - in a strange sort of way - we had to go to war with Iraq in order to prevent another 9/11. Not because Saddam Hussain was a threat to America.

But because Saddam Hussain was a threat to Saudi Arabia. And the only way to safely withdraw troops from Saudi Arabia (and fulfill Bin Laden's demands) was to first invade Iraq and remove Saddam Hussain from power.

Sorry for the ramble. But I guess the point I am getting to is that neither the IRA or al Qaeda were religious terrorists killing in the name of their religion.

Instead - they were terrorists who shared the same religion who wanted an occupying force to leave a country.

With Britain in Northern Ireland - it was for Irish nationalist reasons.

With the US in Saudi Arabia - it was for Islamic religious reasons.

But ultimately - they were coming from a very similar place.

(03-16-2014 05:01 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

(03-16-2014 03:00 PM)bojangles Wrote:  Weird conversation. By the way Christian terrorists? The UK has suffered at the hands of those. Roman Catholic they were, and yes that was in the last 50 years.

I disagree there. The IRA were not Christian terrorists. They were just a group of people who wanted the British to leave Northern Ireland.

They happened to be mainly Catholic. But they were not fighting in the name of Christianity - unlike the Islamic jihadists. Although to be fair - Bin Laden doesn;t really hate the West. He just wanted US troops to leave Saudi Arabia (which they did do after 9/11). And ideally - for the US to stop supporting Israel as well.

But funnily enough - having US troops stationed in Saudi Arabia was the main point of anger for Bin Laden. Although even today - most people are unaware of that.

In the run up to the first Iraq war - Bin Laden approached the Saudi Arabian government and offered to offer military support for the country.

Iraq had just invaded Kuwait - and Kuwait (along with Iraq) borders Saudi Arabia. And since Iraq was looking to conquer Kuwait for it's oil - it made sense for Saudi Arabia to be concerned as well.

Anyway - Bin Laden had managed to organise a group of fighters who beat the Soviet Union in the Afghanistan war (of the 1980s). So Bin Laden was in a position to make a serious offer of providing security for the country.

It was not to be. Saudi Arabia told him to take his religious fanatics to Sudan and fuck off. And even offered to fund al Qaeda - as long as Bin Laden never kept all the Islamic radicals together and fighting anybody but Saudi Arabia.

Instead - Saudi Arabia agreed to an American request to have US troops on the Saudi Arabia border.

Having US infidals stationed in Saudi Arabia (the Holy Land according to Islam) enraged Bin Laden. And was the main grudge he had against America.

He couldn't give a fuck about western culture since he was a soccer fan, his favourite TV show was 'The Wonder Years' (as is mine - by the way!) and he loved the music of Whitney Houston. And even talked of kidnapping her and marrying her.

Anyway - it is little known that having US troops stationed in Saudi Arabia was the main reason behind 9/11. But on top of that - the US troops left Saudi Arabia in 2003. So - Bin Laden did manage to achieve one of his aims.

And not only that - it is probably the case that the US only felt comfortable leaving Saudi Arabia - once Saddam Hussain had been removed from power.

Which means that - in a roundabout way - the Iraq war was arranged in order to ultimately give Bin Laden what he wanted.

So - in a strange sort of way - we had to go to war with Iraq in order to prevent another 9/11. Not because Saddam Hussain was a threat to America.

But because Saddam Hussain was a threat to Saudi Arabia. And the only way to safely withdraw troops from Saudi Arabia (and fulfill Bin Laden's demands) was to first invade Iraq and remove Saddam Hussain from power.

Sorry for the ramble. But I guess the point I am getting to is that neither the IRA or al Qaeda were religious terrorists killing in the name of their religion.

Instead - they were terrorists who shared the same religion who wanted an occupying force to leave a country.

With Britain in Northern Ireland - it was for Irish nationalist reasons.

With the US in Saudi Arabia - it was for Islamic religious reasons.

But ultimately - they were coming from a very similar place.

Never thought of it like that mate. This is why I like RVF so much.

The only person I have even seen mention the astonishing fact that the US met the demands of bin Laden and left Saudi Arabia is Peter Hitchens.

He is my favourite writer.

Great post. I always thought Bin Laden was much more about safeguarding the political and economic sovereignty of Arab countries across the Middle East than he was concerned with what other countries, including the US, 'believed in'. It wasn't the values of the US he objected to so much as the direction of US foreign policy within the Middle East.

(03-15-2014 07:42 AM)dreambig Wrote:  I assume you posted this with irony. There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim.

Let me correct this slightly. Obviously I'm aware that there are peaceful Muslims. I meant to write that there is no such thing as a moderate Islam.

The ideology of Islam is extremist in its nature. There is no getting around this - this religion makes feminism look reasonable by contrast.

For Muslims, the Koran is the word of God. The Koran clearly states that you must wage holy war (jihad), that non-believers are to be killed or otherwise enslaved, that apostasy is punishable by death and so on. It's hard to reinterpret this in any way as this is all coming from Mohammed himself.

Read the news you will see examples of jihad carried out almost every day - this shit is not just theoretical.

When someone states on TV that "Islamic terrorists are not true Muslims" they are lying through their teeth. This is PC bullshit and needs to be corrected. If anything, the 9/11 terrorists are fully supported by the Koran. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all Islamic terrorists are Muslim.

Western governments should recognize Islam as a dangerous religion that is opposed to the liberal values of western civilization. Everything should be done to stop Islam from spreading further. This is different from discriminating against Muslims themselves - that I am against. Nobody should be punished for their religious beliefs alone, no matter how stupid they may appear.

But it's ridiculous that the UK government is funding Muslim schools for example. These actions of appeasement are based on fear and they will backfire.

The real hope for me is that, in the West at least, there will be an increase in non-practicing Muslims in the future. That is, that people originally from Muslim families will lose touch with their religion, just as young Europeans have lost touch with Christianity. Islam should be criticized in public just as Christianity is. The PC silencing of dissent needs to stop.

Western governments should also get their noses out of the Middle East and its oil. No more wars please. But that is probably too much to hope for.

(03-16-2014 09:15 PM)dreambig Wrote:  

(03-15-2014 07:42 AM)dreambig Wrote:  I assume you posted this with irony. There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim.

Let me correct this slightly. Obviously I'm aware that there are peaceful Muslims. I meant to write that there is no such thing as a moderate Islam.

The ideology of Islam is extremist in its nature. There is no getting around this - this religion makes feminism look reasonable by contrast.

For Muslims, the Koran is the word of God. The Koran clearly states that you must wage holy war (jihad), that non-believers are to be killed or otherwise enslaved, that apostasy is punishable by death and so on. It's hard to reinterpret this in any way as this is all coming from Mohammed himself.

Read the news you will see examples of jihad carried out almost every day - this shit is not just theoretical.

When someone states on TV that "Islamic terrorists are not true Muslims" they are lying through their teeth. This is PC bullshit and needs to be corrected. If anything, the 9/11 terrorists are fully supported by the Koran. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all Islamic terrorists are Muslim.

Western governments should recognize Islam as a dangerous religion that is opposed to the liberal values of western civilization. Everything should be done to stop Islam from spreading further. This is different from discriminating against Muslims themselves - that I am against. Nobody should be punished for their religious beliefs alone, no matter how stupid they may appear.

But it's ridiculous that the UK government is funding Muslim schools for example. These actions of appeasement are based on fear and they will backfire.

The real hope for me is that, in the West at least, there will be an increase in non-practicing Muslims in the future. That is, that people originally from Muslim families will lose touch with their religion, just as young Europeans have lost touch with Christianity. Islam should be criticized in public just as Christianity is. The PC silencing of dissent needs to stop.

Western governments should also get their noses out of the Middle East and its oil. No more wars please. But that is probably too much to hope for.

By the same logic the Wetboro Baptist Church are practicing Christians and the Nigerian whom burn "heretics" alive are too. I would like to call Strawman fallacy on this argument.

(03-16-2014 10:00 PM)hwuzhere Wrote:  By the same logic the Wetboro Baptist Church are practicing Christians and the Nigerian whom burn "heretics" alive are too. I would like to call Strawman fallacy on this argument.

Christianity offers a lot more flexibility in interpretation - most Christians don't believe that the Bible is the word of God.

ALL Muslims believe the Koran to be directly from God. There's a difference in there somewhere.

One of my favourite go-to videos when this subject comes up:

dreambig Wrote:Let me correct this slightly. Obviously I'm aware that there are peaceful Muslims. I meant to write that there is no such thing as a moderate Islam.
The ideology of Islam is extremist in its nature. There is no getting around this - this religion makes feminism look reasonable by contrast.

The words moderate and extreme are meaningless words. You have no universal criteria to apply these words in order to differentiate one from the other. In fact, it used to be that moderate meant any Muslim who didn't commit terrorism and now it seems to mean any Muslim who doesn't practice his religion.

Quote:For Muslims, the Koran is the word of God.

Absolutely.

Quote:The Koran clearly states that you must wage holy war (jihad),

Remind us all where that general command is again.

Quote:that non-believers are to be killed or otherwise enslaved,

Yes, anyone who engages in warfare is to be captured and/or killed. Who has a problem with this?

Quote:that apostasy is punishable by death and so on.

Correct. It is a capital crime.

Quote:Read the news you will see examples of jihad carried out almost every day - this shit is not just theoretical.

Absolutely. Do you have a problem with war as a whole or only when Muslims engage in it?

Quote:When someone states on TV that "Islamic terrorists are not true Muslims" they are lying through their teeth. This is PC bullshit and needs to be corrected. If anything, the 9/11 terrorists are fully supported by the Koran. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all Islamic terrorists are Muslim.

Muslims who commit crimes don't automatically become non-Muslims. And terrorism is illegal under Islamic Law.

The rest of your post contains your hopes and dreams and I have no interest in addressing them.

(03-16-2014 09:15 PM)dreambig Wrote:  For Muslims, the Koran is the word of God. The Koran clearly states that you must wage holy war (jihad), that non-believers are to be killed or otherwise enslaved, that apostasy is punishable by death and so on. It's hard to reinterpret this in any way as this is all coming from Mohammed himself.

The Christians hands are not free of blood either.

A quarter of my lineage comes from the Spanish conquistadors that moved to South America and brutally murdered and enslaved the indigenous people. All of this was done in the name of God and Jesus.

If anything, religion has historically been used as a front to justify conquest and expansion of an empire. It also helps to indoctrinate the conquered people into the new rule that they are living under.

The Koran just states this more clearly.

To the victor go the spoils. This has and always will be the way of the world.

(03-16-2014 11:59 PM)All or Nothing Wrote:  

(03-16-2014 09:15 PM)dreambig Wrote:  For Muslims, the Koran is the word of God. The Koran clearly states that you must wage holy war (jihad), that non-believers are to be killed or otherwise enslaved, that apostasy is punishable by death and so on. It's hard to reinterpret this in any way as this is all coming from Mohammed himself.

The Christians hands are not free of blood either.

A quarter of my lineage comes from the Spanish conquistadors that moved to South America and brutally murdered and enslaved the indigenous people. All of this was done in the name of God and Jesus.

If anything, religion has historically been used as a front to justify conquest and expansion of an empire. It also helps to indoctrinate the conquered people into the new rule that they are living under.

I agree. Christianity is very similar to Islam if you go back far enough. Even as an atheist I have to recognize that the form of violent Christianity you mention is firmly in the past. Islam is still stuck in the exact same place - the Middle Ages.

One thing I wonder sometimes is which will win out in Western Europe - Feminism or Islam? The two ideologies are about as opposing as it gets. My money is on Islam in the long run as feminists don't tend to produce many children. But I could be wrong.

Here's a new claim that just made Drudge Report: It's a "war crime" to shoot enemies too much, which is why the video is suppressed.

http://sofrep.com/33599/why-us-govt-hasn...bl-corpse/
But was it illegal? Under the Laws of Land Warfare, a soldier is fully authorized to put a few insurance rounds into his target after he goes down. Provided the enemy is not surrendering, it is morally, legally, and ethically appropriate to shoot the body a few times to ensure that he is really dead and no longer a threat. However, what happened on the Bin Laden raid is beyond excessive. The level of excess shown was not about making sure that Bin Laden was no longer a threat. The excess was pure self-indulgence.

Now you know the real reason why the Obama administration has not released pictures of Osama Bin Laden’s corpse. To do so would show the world a body filled with a ridiculous number of gunshot wounds. The picture itself would likely cause an international scandal, and investigations would be conducted which could uncover other operations, activities which many will do anything to keep buried.

So now our never-served-in-the-military journalists are trying to impose yet another bullshit rule of engagement they've entirely fabricated: Our troops may shoot enemies, but they still have to leave a pretty looking corpse behind or "it's a war crime."

I'm sure crack journalist Jack Murphy will next be citing the Geneva Accord section supporting his new war crime claim any day now.

And I'm sure it will be imposed against all nations equally, not just as a bullclub against America alone. I look forward to Jack Murphy's brave chastising of Iran, Iraq, and other Arab countries that have used land mines to literally blow children into unidentifiable bits in their land wars.

Svenski is right though I do agree that a good portion should not be allowed to immigrate, but I wouldn't be so stringent as to limit them that much. A good portion isn't exactly out for the West's head either(I'd say 65% does not care or are forced into it due to Western war crimes in the Middle East not limited to droning civilians, 10% are truly fundamentalist, and 25% are too rich to be bothered or are pro-West), and I think the social degeneration of the West is a bigger problem than Islamic fundamentalist thinking. Also I would like to argue that regardless of it being the word of God or not, it still has been used as a convenient tool especially here in the South on more than one occasion.

Since this thread turned into a religious one in some way I will say every time someone criticizes islam it seems like they have to bash another religion (Christianity) just to divert focus. This thread is Islamic based, keep it that way. If you want to talk about Christianity do so in a new thread and make a go at it.

I lived in the Middle East for 2 years. There are Muslims who are great people. There are idiots as well. Those who want to kill others who don't believe what they do are sick people. Brainwashed!!!!!! Any faith.

Now back to the main topic, what allegedly happened to him well the chickens came home to roost. He had it coming.

(03-17-2014 12:14 AM)dreambig Wrote:  

(03-16-2014 11:59 PM)All or Nothing Wrote:  

(03-16-2014 09:15 PM)dreambig Wrote:  For Muslims, the Koran is the word of God. The Koran clearly states that you must wage holy war (jihad), that non-believers are to be killed or otherwise enslaved, that apostasy is punishable by death and so on. It's hard to reinterpret this in any way as this is all coming from Mohammed himself.

The Christians hands are not free of blood either.

A quarter of my lineage comes from the Spanish conquistadors that moved to South America and brutally murdered and enslaved the indigenous people. All of this was done in the name of God and Jesus.

If anything, religion has historically been used as a front to justify conquest and expansion of an empire. It also helps to indoctrinate the conquered people into the new rule that they are living under.

I agree. Christianity is very similar to Islam if you go back far enough. Even as an atheist I have to recognize that the form of violent Christianity you mention is firmly in the past. Islam is still stuck in the exact same place - the Middle Ages.

One thing I wonder sometimes is which will win out in Western Europe - Feminism or Islam? The two ideologies are about as opposing as it gets. My money is on Islam in the long run as feminists don't tend to produce many children. But I could be wrong.

I think Christianity was MUCH more violent then Islam is now. Islamic violence comes from us Americans effing with their region of the world too much. Lets leave them the eff alone and I bet you won't see them blow themselves up in the name of Allah.

dreambig was. That's what I was responding to. He began by teaching us all what Islamic Law is about and is clearly misinformed. Did you really not understand the conversation?

Quote:In fact, most people in the West don't care what it says.

Most people? Maybe. However, the people who like to engage in these conversations do and many have a habit of misrepresenting what Islam is which is why I made my response.

Quote:The point is that most people in the West disagree with the values and teachings therein regarding warfare, religious expansion and freedom of religion/expression (or lack thereof).

I disagree. Most people have no problem when their side goes to war, expands their territory or silences those it deems a problem and will in fact go above and beyond Islamic Law by using nuclear weapons, specifically targeting Muslims and other horrendous tactics.

Quote:Modern Western society has been based upon the values of the Enlightenment and Classical Liberalism (not to be confused with small-l liberalism).

I truly believe that the world should be zoned off. The Middle East and North Africa shall be deemed the Islamic Sphere of Influence. People from those countries would not be allowed to immigrate to the Western World or obtain visas of any kind. There would be a few exceptions for rocket scientists and Einstein types.

I'll post this in the unpopular opinion thread as well.

Go for it.