Post: #1

The only other topics remotely similar to this I found are these two, so I'd rather not necro them. Anyways, I have a weird problem: girls flaking on me mid-date, before I have a chance to escalate! I've completely fixed my growing pains from several years ago (being an entertainer and being bad at closing) and have ventured on lots of successful dates (ending in bangs or at least makeouts) in the meantime. However, a new issue has creeped up on me and took me by surprise.

I'll describe the date I was just on, as it is emblematic of my last few dates.

After messaging a girl and online and exchanging 3-5 messages, I invite her out for drinks. She accepts and seems eager, saying that "she would be really glad to meet me". She accepts the first day I propose (some have declined the first date but apologized and instantly offered another date, i.e. no sign of flaking). While waiting for that day, we exchange 1-2 more messages and numbers. She remains warm and flirty in these messages or texts.

I meet her at a public place, being standardly 5-10 minutes late. She is not there yet, but I wisely refrain from contacting her and am rewarded for being patient when she appears a minute later. She offers me a handshake, which I smoothly accept presidential-style and exchange kisses on both cheeks (which is customary in my country, but I'd do it even if it weren't). She giggles and the intro conversation starts to flow easily as we walk towards a caffe 5-10 minutes away.

We sit down at the caffe, with me taking a seat next to her instead of across the table. This is just a starting location, but it can't hurt to close the distance early. There is never a lull in the conversation and she asks me lots of questions. She responds well to teasing and laughs at or compliments anything I say. While talking, I occasionally touch her forearm or leg and she doesn't flinch away or seem disturbed in the slightest.

At some point, she asks something about my love life, at which I give her the standard (and truthful) "oh you know, I've been engaged a long time ago" and "it's complicated" answers and she seems intrigued. When she mentions something about a guy she was last seeing (what girl doesn't have one?), I smoothly redirect the conversation and tease her with "hey we've just met and you're already telling me your problems" and, if she brings it up again, "don't worry, I'm not jealous". Other than that, conversation is standard everyday-moving-towards-more-intimate-topics, with lots of laughing and a good vibe in the air. She is well-attracted and a makeout (at the minimum) seems a certainty in the near future.

Roughly one hour passes this way. I'm just about to get her out for a walk towards the second location (there are several nice bars with couches that serve excellent cocktails within 10 minutes of walking where I can escalate further and kiss her, which has always worked well for me in the past, and is the standard Bang recipe) when her phone beeps and she says "oh, that's my friend, I told her I'd meet her for some [social function] in half an hour". Wait, you're meeting for drinks with a guy you like and you've planned something else less than 90 minutes afterwards?



At this point, I feel like a deflated balloon. What am I supposed to do, ask (or command) her to flake on her friend? I propose going for a walk nonetheless, which she rejects because "she'd like that, but she really has to go soon". Nonetheless, she continues being flirty and her mood doesn't change. She is still accepting of light touching, giggly and asking questions. In 20 minutes, it's time to go and we separate; there is just not enough time for me to work my magic to the end as usual.

What do you think what's going on here? I have no doubts that these girls actually did arrange something beforehand (as opposed to inventing an excuse to get the hell out of here), otherwise their attitude would worsen during the date instead of improve. But why? Is it some kind of "safeguard" when meeting guys from the internet? And how should I respond? Should I try to ramp things up and go for the kiss within the first 60 minutes? Should I try to convince them to flake on the friend? I am at a loss as to why this is suddenly happening to me. I've experienced girls being cold and refusing escalation or girls flaking, but I've never had girls pre-schedule flaking during the date, especially not that early.

Post: #2

Personally on dates I've had this happen, but there is nothing you can do about it unless you know beforehand that she's going to meet with someone(in which cases you escalate faster). Personally I would attempt to learn how to establish a close connection faster, thus getting more leverage to go for the bang sooner as well as being more preferable to her friend.

Post: #3

If this is just 1 girl, i'd write it off as a loss.

If this is several girls over the course of a few months, then something's going wrong with your process.

Either you aren't interpreting her signals right, or you're doing something to make them unattracted when they once were.

Age group?

WIA

Post: #4

Every question she asks seeks to excuse or justify a choice not to sleep with you.

As soon as a girl engages with her cell in a significant way while on a date, you should be the one to leave first.

Post: #5

It's probably a safeguard for meeting guys online, as you say. There are even cell services and "bad date rescue apps" for this purpose.

Here is where I think you and the Millennial generation are going wrong:

"After messaging a girl and online and exchanging 3-5 messages, I invite her out for drinks."

In the pre-text days, I'd build up landline rapport with girls before meeting them. I've written about this at Roissy's: sometimes I'd build up so much rapport through talking we'd have a sort of "mental phone sex." By the time I'd meet these girls, they'd be pretty comfortable with me. So any failure was due to my errors, not "stranger danger" paranoia, which can be impossible to overcome.

IMO you need more pre-date interaction than just texts. Most women need to meet a potential boyfriend or lay, not a stranger. The power of the human voice and the power of persuasion is a very important thing. You can set yourself up for greatness with a good phone convo. You can talk away negatives. Without one, I think you're operating at a loss. (But if younger women don't like to talk on the phone anymore, though, I don't know what to tell you.)

Finally, what image are you putting out? Have you ever videotaped yourself and watched it? A lot of guys come off more intense than they realize and seeing yourself recorded can expose this.* I think if women meet a stranger and the intensity is too great too soon, their instincts tell them to flee -- no matter how good looking you are. You might have to kick back and be more indifferent.

* A bit of knowledge passed on to me by the owner of a historic movie theater who got a regular TV gig and was so mortified by the way he came off, he worked for weeks to make himself "Not look like an angry Frankenstein." He ended up a popular local personality.

Post: #6

It sounds like the flake was preplanned. I'd focus on building more of a rapport before the date like DoBA mentioned. Start double booking yourself with dates too. Think of it as doubling the chances for you to get the bang on a given night. A few years ago I noticed girls scheduling themselves to the max for no apparent reason. It dawned on me that doing this allowed them to talk about how "busy" they were and make it sound like their lives were cool.

Post: #7

You said this is emblematic of your last few dates. Have your last few dates been the result of online interaction, face-to-face # close, a mix?

My take is two-pronged as I don't know the type of girl she is:

1) This "date" was DOA. Since the foundation was online based, she wasn't taking it seriously and saw it as something to pass the time. She responded well because she enjoyed the entertainment and wanted to put herself in a good mood for her "social function". Girls love to mooch attention with online dating.

2) she's a slow girl and needs more comfort. Casually hit her up for a second date, the frame being she wanted you but is a total ditz and doesn't know how to schedule things.

The vagueness of "some social function" means she either placed you underneath a boring event that will take up her night (total idiot), or "some" = amazing event filled with more opportunities to attention whore and better prospects. Whether conscious or not, it's not good to be the warm-up for a girl's night.

I would next her and get a girl out on a date whom you met face-to-face. Online dating is a "glitch", where you get dates based on digital info. All humanness is lost, even a phone convo won't start you on the same footing as a face-to-face #close. My guess is you will encounter this problem again if you rely on online for dates.

Post: #8

WIA Wrote:If this is just 1 girl, i'd write it off as a loss.

If this is several girls over the course of a few months, then something's going wrong with your process.

unbowed Wrote:You said this is emblematic of your last few dates. Have your last few dates been the result of online interaction, face-to-face # close, a mix?

4 girls over a month and a half, all from online (actually 3 as the 4th was really my fault, I was sick and put forward some weak-ass game so that doesn't count as this problem).

WIA Wrote:Age group?

Our favorite, 18-26. I'm in my mid-twenties.

BDawg Wrote:As soon as a girl engages with her cell in a significant way while on a date, you should be the one to leave first.

I was actually considering this, but I really saw no way in which it would not come off as controlling. She didn't text back or take her time off me to respond; the message (or call in one case) just came and she mentioned that she had to go soon.

DOBA Wrote:IMO you need more pre-date interaction than just texts. Most women need to meet a potential boyfriend or lay, not a stranger. The power of the human voice and the power of persuasion is a very important thing. You can set yourself up for greatness with a good phone convo. You can talk away negatives. Without one, I think you're operating at a loss. (But if younger women don't like to talk on the phone anymore, though, I don't know what to tell you.)

I agree with this, it is sound advice. However, I have been unable to get them on the phone. In fact, I started 2 out of these 4 girls by asking them to talk on the phone (instead of asking them to meet). They both said that it would be awkward or inconvenient and instead voluntarily offered a day to meet in person. It didn't seem like ill-natured flaking where a girl is avoiding you, but rather genuine so I had no problems with it. Seeing this pattern, I asked the other 2 for meeting straight away and it provided for a smoother ride from first message to drinks.

I didn't think this could be an issue, but it really could be. I don't know. I usually ask a girl for drinks if she is in my town, for a number (and then drinks) if she is in an adjacent town, and for Skype (and then drinks when/if I happen to drop by later) if she is over the country or in another country. So far the combo has worked out well, which is why I was so shocked by this unfortunate string of events.

DOBA Wrote:Finally, what image are you putting out? Have you ever videotaped yourself and watched it? A lot of guys come off more intense than they realize and seeing yourself recorded can expose this.* I think if women meet a stranger and the intensity is too great too soon, their instincts tell them to flee -- no matter how good looking you are. You might have to kick back and be more indifferent.

Fuck, I don't know. I haven't given it any thought at all, actually. Since this same recipe has used to work well before (both for online and real-life-sourced girls), that would be the last thing on my mind. I doubt that I have changed that much (especially for the worse) in just a few months. If anything, getting contacts is now easier than it was before. The point and context at which this happens during these "bad dates" is exactly the same that I would go through if I were on a "good date" ending in sex.

Mujeriego Wrote:A few years ago I noticed girls scheduling themselves to the max for no apparent reason. It dawned on me that doing this allowed them to talk about how "busy" they were and make it sound like their lives were cool.

Indeed, all of these girls have mentioned that they were "busy" at some point during the conversation. Still, one would expect them to still allow for more than an hour for meeting a (what they say) pleasant person for some drinks.

DOBA Wrote:It's probably a safeguard for meeting guys online, as you say. There are even cell services and "bad date rescue apps" for this purpose.

While that could be the case, I find it strongly at odds with her behaviour after the text/call. What motivation could a girl have to continue acting warm and attracted towards me for another half an hour after calling in an app or friend for the rescue?

Either way, thank you all for your insightful opinions. I'll see if any of these girls hit me up for a second date and hit them with some restart texts after a week if they don't. I'll also give calling more of a push and see if it helps.

p.s. just to make it clear: most of you guys suggest that there is no good "lifesaver" maneuver for when she pulls it off, but rather that I try to pre-emptively fix it before the date, right? Has anyone ever turned a date suddenly gone wrong like this around and how?

Post: #9

I just realized you've said you met these girls "online," but not mentioned where online. Dating sites? Facebook?

The source might be the problem. If you meet women in church, you tend to meet a lot of religious women. If you're going to OKC or whatever, you might be attracting women who have the attention span of fleas and a need for attention like Lady Gaga.

And don't get me started on Tinder. I think these kinds of things attract the worst kind of attention whores. Years ago, these types would be lounge lizards at the sleazy local club or hotel bar; now we all have to deal with them and their stupid "selfies."

Post: #10

I've been there.

While I'm not sure I'd call this a flake (she showed up), it's certainly a jarring, confusing turn of events to say the least.

Couple of suggestions;

1. At the beginning of the date, check if she's double booked with, "so what's on for later?" (day) or "do you have a curfew?" (night). This will reveal early on if she's actually focused on you, vs just a convenient interlude.

If she planned to be all yours for the day/night, great. But if not, now you can begin your attempt to turn the tables sooner...

2. Early in the date, once things are progressing well, drop in, "you know, it's a shame you have XYZ...I had something special planned for us."

Naturally she'll want to know what it is/was. The key is don't tell her. For the rest of the date, the curiosity will drive her insane. Intrigue is a potent tool here.

It will become a recurring theme in the conversation. She will feel like an asshole for double booking, as well as trigger her fear of missing out.

When you combine this with your usual good game, amping up the vibe, etc. I guarantee she will at least post-pone the other thing she was doing. Often times even cancel it altogether.

Post: #11

DOBA Wrote:The source might be the problem. If you meet women in church, you tend to meet a lot of religious women. If you're going to OKC or whatever, you might be attracting women who have the attention span of fleas and a need for attention like Lady Gaga.

Indeed, we're talking OkCupid here in all cases. While it has very few users in Croatia, I've had tremendous success (at least as far as responses and converting responses to the next step) on it lately. My reply rate is well over 50%, and the closing rate is around 50% as well. This is far more than I've experienced on it before, which I've chalked up to my improved game (both online and overall).

Do you think that OkCupid girls would be positively inclined towards flaking, either before the date or in the fashion that I experienced?

@Matthew Valentines: that's excellent advice, I'm definitely using both of your points. Thanks!

Post: #12

(03-16-2014 03:40 PM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

DOBA Wrote:The source might be the problem. If you meet women in church, you tend to meet a lot of religious women. If you're going to OKC or whatever, you might be attracting women who have the attention span of fleas and a need for attention like Lady Gaga.

Indeed, we're talking OkCupid here in all cases. While it has very few users in Croatia, I've had tremendous success (at least as far as responses and converting responses to the next step) on it lately. My reply rate is well over 50%, and the closing rate is around 50% as well. This is far more than I've experienced on it before, which I've chalked up to my improved game (both online and overall).

Do you think that OkCupid girls would be positively inclined towards flaking, either before the date or in the fashion that I experienced?

@Matthew Valentines: that's excellent advice, I'm definitely using both of your points. Thanks!

I didn't know you were in Croatia. Here in the DC-Baltimore area, I've noticed there is a group of women who stay on OKC for years. What are they doing on there for years? IMO they like the stream of male attention and don't want to shut off the spigot and decide on one guy. They get addicted to the rush of new attention.

Technology often begets behavior. We shape what we do depending on the technology we have. So a half decade of this stuff might be warping (some) women into total attention-whores.

I'm old enough to remember when the only way to get music was to buy a cassette or CD. You got 12 songs and that was it. Since you paid, you listened closely and valued what you had.

Scroll ahead, and I have a playlist in Winamp that can be endless and made up of thousands of songs from any genre and any era. And you can get more anytime. Usually for free. As such, I have more to listen to -- more than I can ever absorb, in fact -- but it's all become more disposable and of less value to me.

I think people are going the way of MP3s. If you had success previously, it's probably not you.

Post: #13

This has happened to me a few times in the past couple months. Mostly from Tinder and POF.

My solution is when i 1st meet them and we're talking is i ask them how much time they have. It kinda puts them on the spot so they can't say they have a bunch of time then flake an hour later.
Also if the girl is constantly on her phone i ask "Is that the text to make sure you're still alive and I'm not a serial killer?"
It helps diffuse her anxiety.

Post: #14

(03-16-2014 03:40 PM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

DOBA Wrote:The source might be the problem. If you meet women in church, you tend to meet a lot of religious women. If you're going to OKC or whatever, you might be attracting women who have the attention span of fleas and a need for attention like Lady Gaga.

Indeed, we're talking OkCupid here in all cases. While it has very few users in Croatia, I've had tremendous success (at least as far as responses and converting responses to the next step) on it lately. My reply rate is well over 50%, and the closing rate is around 50% as well. This is far more than I've experienced on it before, which I've chalked up to my improved game (both online and overall).

Do you think that OkCupid girls would be positively inclined towards flaking, either before the date or in the fashion that I experienced?

@Matthew Valentines: that's excellent advice, I'm definitely using both of your points. Thanks!

For sure, glad you found it useful.

As far as flake factor goes, that has more to do with how much work you're putting in up front, rather than the dating site itself.

Invested only a few texts, without a voice conversation beforehand? You will have a higher chance of getting flaked on than if you invested 15 minutes on a friendly phone call first, for insurance. Or better yet, a skype chat, which builds even more comfort!

Post: #15

I like the "do you have a curfew?" line someone suggested. I think the only way to safeguard against this is to be flirty about it.

Also you might want to think about just putting this into your online playbook. Chalk it up to being part of the local culture, or whatever, but maybe these girls need one quick round of drinks before a longer date (where you end up banging).

Post: #16

She booked other plans and was using you to kill time and as a free option...if you had knocked it out of the park she would have stayed, but obviously that didnt happen. The solution isnt to over-analyze it but rather to consider adopting the same strategy yourself...why would you meet a girl you have exchanged 2 texts with and not have a a backup plan? If i was meeting some random girl and she started texting with her friends i would leave and go to put myself in a more promising situation.

Post: #17

This is not "flaking". (They did not cancel or ignore the date)

This is an "Blind Date" situation.

A "blind date" that was created online.

In this "online-to-blind date" scenario, girls will often use the "blind date" as a "Speed Date".

It's not a real date. It's a "mini date". A "speed date".

Girls will often schedule other plans in case they are not interested in the guy.

There is no minimum amount of time that she is obligated to spend with you. There is no minimum amount of time that you are obligated to spend with her. Both of you are free to leave at any time.

That is a "blind date". That is what is happening.

If the girl was ugly or annoying, you would leave to, right?

Post: #18

If this is becoming the new M.O. for women, we need to find a way to turn it around.

And there is a way to turn the tables here. If you want to strike insecurity in the heart of a blind date, as soon as you see her say "Hey, looks like I can only stay for a half hour -- something came up."

Massive reframe. And if you go in as jovial as possible, it looks like you're the one on top.

That opens the door for a few things. If you click, you can always arrange meeting up even later on or the next day, so some comfort is built from the initial meeting. And, of course, the fact that you might just be rejecting her looms in the background, possibly getting her to try and qualify herself.

This could backfire, of course, but if you play it right, you'll definitely throw the woman off-kilter.

Post: #19

I've seen this from the woman's side (female friends). They are using you as a warmup for social events later that night. Bouncing from one social to another while charming everyone along the way makes them feel like celebrities. They'll nonchalantly mention being on a date with an attractive guy just prior, as a way to one-up each other. You're the pre-party, you want to be in the afterparty.

Post: #20

You didn't mention what day of the week these dates are on. If it is Friday or Sat then there is a good chance they have other plans later. If it's Monday or Tuesday then the other plans are probably an excuse.

Post: #21

(03-16-2014 04:52 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  This is not "flaking". (They did not cancel or ignore the date)

This is an "Blind Date" situation.

A "blind date" that was created online.

In this "online-to-blind date" scenario, girls will often use the "blind date" as a "Speed Date".

It's not a real date. It's a "mini date". A "speed date".

Girls will often schedule other plans in case they are not interested in the guy.

There is no minimum amount of time that she is obligated to spend with you. There is no minimum amount of time that you are obligated to spend with her. Both of you are free to leave at any time.

That is a "blind date". That is what is happening.

If the girl was ugly or annoying, you would leave to, right?

I'm glad someone put it in to this perspective.
Some guys act just as entitled as women.
Yes it can happen to you also, red pill or not good looking women have options also.


This goes both ways.

Post: #22

Giovonny Wrote:That is a "blind date". That is what is happening.

If the girl was ugly or annoying, you would leave to, right?

Maybe, but I wouldn't plan it ahead of time, and I surely wouldn't continue laughing and touching her if I found her unattractive. Anyways, lesson learned.

savvylurker Wrote:You didn't mention what day of the week these dates are on. If it is Friday or Sat then there is a good chance they have other plans later. If it's Monday or Tuesday then the other plans are probably an excuse.

This particular example was on Sunday, but other dates were on Saturday, Friday and Wednesday. All were in the afternoon or late afternoon.

blueshark747 Wrote:Some guys act just as entitled as women.

Oh come on. Maybe I'm being caught by surprise by the advance of American-style game in my country (the expected pace of escalation went from "kiss expected on 2nd date" 15 years ago to "kiss must happen at 1st date or gtfo" to "must bang at first date" and now finally to "must kiss within one hour"), but I don't see what could be gained from self-flagellating. How is it my fault that I have to pull some Houdini shit to get with a girl? I'll do it, I just won't pretend it's great.

Post: #23

This happened to me yesterday, the timing of this post is flawless. Regardless, it has happened to me only once before, in years, and it was because the girl had a train to catch and I could not meet on the initial day she had proposed.

The reason this is happening to you is obvious. If a woman is going to meet a complete stranger, she will very commonly create a backup plan in case things go wrong. Even if things are going right they might still go for the backup plan.

I do exclusively daygame, so this never happens. If you have had a 40 minute conversation on the street, maybe even an instant date, you are no longer strangers, she knows who you are, she knows you will lead the conversation and not make it awkward... and so on. Therefore there will be no backup plan.

This is happening to you because you are meeting girls in an unnatural way (online), which is precisely why I don't do online and I see it as a waste of time. There are two many problems with it to warrant use.

I did not know exactly how to respond, but I focused on creating a connection and deep rapport. I thought about kissing her, but after 1h 30min of daytime coffee I opted not to. Way too uncalibrated. Thankfully, she came out on a second date and I ran the intimacy there.

If this happens and you cannot get the kiss, there is obviously a higher chance of not seeing her again, but it is not zero. 50% perhaps, and since it rarely happens if you met in person, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

But, it is the ONLY situation that puts up an impenetrable barrier towards the kiss-close. If you can avoid this situation, you can easily have a 100% first date kiss-close rate.

Post: #24

(03-16-2014 03:55 PM)kinjutsu Wrote:  Also if the girl is constantly on her phone i ask "Is that the text to make sure you're still alive and I'm not a serial killer?"
It helps diffuse her anxiety.

I say the exact same thing.

Post: #25

What time are these dates going down? Sounds like you are starting them too early. Don't meet her for drinks until 9pm or later. That way she won't plan to meet her friends later on in the night.

OR, just invite her over to your place for drinks at 930pm. Problem solved.