Post: #1

We talk often of the West.

What is it exactly? I think that we'd all agree that someone born and raised in the U.S., Canada, Western Europe, Australia, and New Zealand is a Westerner.

Does that include someone from Eastern Europe?

Someone from Jamaica? Antigua? St. Kitts? Latin America? What about someone who moves from China to Germany at age 14?

I feel more at home with some Jamaicans than with many of my fellow white people. On the other hand, while Japan, for example, looks on the surface to be quite similar to America (for example) - a wealthy, democratic country - their thoughts, ideas, and beliefs are worlds apart from what you'll find in the West.

Anyway, I have an idea of what countries and nationalities comprise Western society - but I wanted to poll RVF as to your thoughts. What is the West?

Post: #2

Yeah this question also mind boggles me sometime. For instance Im Latino (Mexican American) born in Chicago. I go to a University in Illinois which is known to have people from all over the world, mainly Chinese. They always refer to me as a "Westerner." So the way I see it, anything in the Asian continent including Russia will be considered East. Everything else, West. Excluding Africa, which sadly it would not be labeled in either one, due to it being subjugated by colonialism, same with Latin America.

I have a Chinese friend who told me that in his "world map" Latin America and Africa are "shaded" in black and referred to each of them as "N/A." Basically saying that they aren't important.

Post: #3

The whole "west" vs. "East" thing originates from the ancient Greeks. They viewed the East of them as one people, and the east as another. To them Europeans at the time were uncivilized and primitive, but free, and Asians were civilized but unfree. They viewed themselves as having the ideal mix of civilization and freedom.

Anyway today, I would include Latin America n the west. Their language and religion are from Western Europe, just as the United States is. If the USA is part of the west, so are Cuba and Ecuador.

Often though, people use The West to mean "rich countries" and in that way we could include Japan and South Korea in the "west" because being rich countries their economic interests are aligned with those of Western Europe and the USA. In this light, Cuba and Ecuador do not "belong" because they arent the countries on the top calling the shots. But Cuba and Ecuador are definitely a part of the culture, language, religion, and history kf the West.

Post: #4

Western/Southern Europe (limit is at Germany,Austria,Italy), Northern Europe, US/Canada, Australia/New Zealand. The only difficulties I see are with Greece, which had a high standard and wouldve been included, but now perhaps not so much anymore and perhaps an island here and there such as Malta.

Eastern Europe - no
Jamaica etc. - no
Latin America - no
Chinese boy - don't overthink this

Post: #5

I view the West as the heirs to the Renaissance, Reformation (even a couple of Catholic nations which were actively engaged in the Counter-Reformation and that whole dialogue), and Age of Enlightenment. Probably throw in Industrial Revolution as well. It's all about an intellectual tradition and worldview as well as economic development (the two being linked, of course).

As such, it is a Western European phenomenon. Thus, somewhere like Singapore (which has inherited some of it) is off the list, as are most former colonies.

Yet I'd also say that basically, most of Latin America is also off the list (a couple of countries such as Chile may be in the process of jumping onto the list). Eastern Europe generally falls outside the West due to differing historic intellectual traditions. Poland may be marginal, tending towards getting on the list. Likewise with the Czech Republic and the Baltics.

This may be controversial, but I'd say that much of the Mediterranean is off the list because they kind of sidestepped the Age of Englightenment and/or were/are backward until only a couple of generations ago. I'd put Spain and Portugal as marginal, likewise for southern Italy, and I'd definitely say that Greece, which once originated the West, is definitely off the list. I'd also class Ireland, until recently, as quite marginal. Another interesting one would be Israel. It's a real grey area as it has in some ways inherited a lot of the historic intellectual movements, yet it also draws from a very different tradition.

To be safe, I'd say the West ends north of the Pyrenees, north of Lombardia, west of the Oder River and the border between Finland and Russia. Outside of Europe, it includes Canada, the U.S., Australia and New Zealand.

Quite interestingly, this definition is not too different to the Hajnal Line.

Post: #6

If the West just means "rich" then why not just say "rich"?

If you are going to say Chile is "western" and Greece is not, all you are saying is that Chile is a neoliberal country with macroeconomic stability that follows IMF dictates etc. and Greece is not. That has basically nothing to do with their society being Western vs. Eastern.

Post: #7

It's purely cultural rather than ethnic in my view. The west encompasses all countries that were/are Christian/Jewish, Americas, Europe and the Antipodeans. The East is purely anywhere east of the Mediterranean barring the Anglo continent south of Indonesia.

Post: #8

(04-11-2014 06:15 AM)bojangles Wrote:  It's purely cultural rather than ethnic in my view. The west encompasses all countries that were/are Christian/Jewish, Americas, Europe and the Antipodeans. The East is purely anywhere east of the Mediterranean barring the Anglo continent south of Indonesia.

I agree broadly. I've been to Peru though, for example - I'd define someone in Lima as a Westerner, but would hesitate to do the same for the Quechua-speaking poor indigenous populations in the mountains.

Anyway, it's all a mess, really.

I'll just add - I think it's changing. You couldn't really include parts of Eastern Europe in the West. But as indicated in this thread, countries seem to be joining the West.

Capitalism and materialism is supplanting enlightenment as the ideal toward which societies strive. It's more important (actually, most important) to be rich, rather than enlightened or democratic.

Post: #9

Dark blue is west

Post: #10

(04-11-2014 05:30 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  If the West just means "rich" then why not just say "rich"?

If you are going to say Chile is "western" and Greece is not, all you are saying is that Chile is a neoliberal country with macroeconomic stability that follows IMF dictates etc. and Greece is not. That has basically nothing to do with their society being Western vs. Eastern.

That is a minor part of it, because I suppose neoliberalism is somewhat of a continuation of the other Western intellectual traditions. From my understanding of things, Chile, Argentina and Uruguay are the most Western Latin American countries simply because the percentage of their population that is non-European, and thus the influence of those cultures on the broader culture, is much smaller than most other countries in the region.

It is not about wealth, per se, otherwise Japan, Singapore, and several of the Gulf States would be on the list.

As I pointed out before, Greece is not Western because its history did not move in parallel to the West. Between the East-West Schism, which is almost one thousand years old, and the Ottoman Empire, it missed all of the major intellectual and technological epochs that define Western Europe. It comes from a completely different background.

Orion: That map is a little off. Papua New Guinea and Greenland are not Western. Neither is the Philippines.

Post: #11

Determining who is from what background in Latin America can be tricky since people lie so much about it for status reasons. Yet Chile is not particularly white, its a mestizo country like many countries. Brazil is probably as white as Chile, except mixed with less indigenous and more African.

Post: #12

Why are people over thinking this, the "West" is just comprised of the countries with a majority of European peoples that share certain cultural and religious traits, excluding Russia, that's it.

Post: #13

I'd say the map posted above has it pretty much spot on.

Post: #14

I agree with the posted map. I also agree with the posters who mentioned that Latin America, at least parts of it, should be considered Western. Certainly the upper-class across Latin America is Western in culture and outlook. Countries like Argentina, Uruguay and Chile are completely Western from the upper-class to the lowest peasant. Countries like Mexico have more of a mix where the upper-class is clearly Western but the very poor have an amalgamation of Western and Native culture.

Post: #15

I mostly agree that the dark blue is "the west", but some of the categorizations in the map could be more thought-out...Bosnia (not including Herzegovina) isn't Orthodox while religiously speaking Ethiopia is. Also it switches between religious and cultural identities without any rhyme or reason: ie how Guinea could be considered less African than Liberia makes no sense at all.

Like other posters have said, Latin America is very hard to pin down because it's a massive mix of indigenous, western, African and even Asian influences. So for instance (and this is simplifying things) Haiti is strongly African, Bolivia is strongly indigenous, Argentina is strongly western...in other countries it varies from region to region. That's why I'm skeptical that it could ever possess one single identity.

Maybe the map is useful in terms of very broad brush strokes, but with any analysis beyond that I'd say it's oversimplified to the point of inaccuracy.

Post: #16

"Western" is a term that has a different meaning for many people. In the thread, many people are using it to exclude for example the Czechs. However when people do that, they are using the term in a very recent political Cold War context. Back then the world was divided into a Capitalist West and Communist East. However countries like the former Czechoslovakia, culturally you cannot separate them from the rest of Europe. Prague has historically been at the center of many European events. King Charles IV started one of the oldest universities in Europe in the 14th century and many scholars flocked there. Or another king, George of Podebrady, sent a mission to many of the European courts to sell his idea of a "Christian Union", something like what the EU is today.

Also you can argue that many of the Russian works of for example literature, music or science are part of the "Western" cultural sphere, as writers such as Pushkin, Dostoyevski, Bulgakov...etc. had a great influence in the rest of Europe and the world.

Post: #17

I asked a Colombian friend about it. Are Latin American countries part of the West?

Yes, he said - Latin Americans are individualistic and capitalists. The big difference between Latin Americans and other Westerners is that Latin Americans are more family-oriented.

Somehow, I'd consider people like Czechs, Poles, Slovakians, etc. to be Westerners. Maybe not Russians.