Post: #1

Found this floating on the web

Post: #2

Outlier, stats show people with college degrees on average make much more than those without. Still a good story.

Post: #3

Can't watch the vid at work. What are his degrees in?

Post: #4

My fav of these masters degrees sob stories was the one about this chick who got a Masters in Medieval History. Let's just say she didn't exactly have the looks to go the Belle Knox route...

Post: #5

LIkely there are other issues omitted from these sob stories. Though usually it seems that they usually have particularily unemployable subject areas. If you're going into the Humanities you need a PhD - though even then it's still a scam.

http://chronicle.com/article/A-Letter-Fr...ate/64889/

http://chronicle.com/article/Graduate-Sc...uma/44846/

Post: #6

In the video, the man says that he has a Ph.D. and a Masters. I believe he'd studied aerodynamic engineering.

Post: #7

I didn't watch the video but I think it's hilarious when people act like having a masters degree means they're going to be successful.

Masters degrees are the biggest cash cows for universities. I'm just graduating now from college and my inbox is constantly spammed about attending such and such U for some bullshit masters for an exorbitant amount of money and minimal admissions standards.

Post: #8

A Master's is almost useless. You're overqualified to take a tech job that a B.Sc. would get you, and you're totally outgunned by Ph.D.'s if you want a professorship or scientist position.

The only way to make it work is get good contacts while you're in schoo and get into a job that way because your credentials likely won't be good enough.

Post: #9

We have doctors in economics that have never had a job in their lives.

Post: #10

(04-25-2014 10:36 AM)Vox_All_Day Wrote:  Can't watch the vid at work. What are his degrees in?

His degrees are STEM.

Worked for well known aerospace company and was laid off.

He has a PhD in Physics and a Masters from Aeronautical engineering.

He apparently got into debt helping saving his parent's house (and then was laid off).

He moved to another city for a job offer and when he got there the job was given to someone else.

Post: #11

(04-25-2014 05:06 PM)The_CEO Wrote:  

(04-25-2014 10:36 AM)Vox_All_Day Wrote:  Can't watch the vid at work. What are his degrees in?

His degrees are STEM.

Worked for well known aerospace company and was laid off.

He has a PhD in Physics and a Masters from Aeronautical engineering.

He apparently got into debt helping saving his parent's house (and then was laid off).

He moved to another city for a job offer and when he got there the job was given to someone else.

There may be other factors of which we are unaware, but it would seem that he did everything right.

It could be argued that he is something of an outlier, but nevertheless, this story should remind even those in the manosphere who constantly parrot STEM, STEM, STEM that nothing is guaranteed.

A lot of STEM fields require a good amount of industry experience and a strong network before you can truly work for yourself.

At last a student who goes to a good liberal arts school (is there such thing?) may be encouraged to be looking for opportunities to run his own business from day one as a freshman.

The real problem with American society is not specifically the value of education, property or other aspirations, but rather the absurd debt load that one must reasonably undertake just to acquire the basic trappings of Western living.

Sure, those who do complete an undergraduate stand to make more money in their lifetime on average, but if you don't succeed, the hit you take will be so much more significant.

Post: #12

Why the obsession with "STEM" degrees over entreprenuership as a route to success?

I am terribly uncomfortable putting my financial stability and future in someone else's hands, regardless of how educated or how "useful" my degree is. It's a losing position.

Post: #13

(04-25-2014 09:33 PM)Suits Wrote:  It could be argued that he is something of an outlier, but nevertheless, this story should remind even those in the manosphere who constantly parrot STEM, STEM, STEM that nothing is guaranteed.

A lot of STEM fields require a good amount of industry experience and a strong network before you can truly work for yourself.

At last a student who goes to a good liberal arts school (is there such thing?) may be encouraged to be looking for opportunities to run his own business from day one as a freshman.

The real problem with American society is not specifically the value of education, property or other aspirations, but rather the absurd debt load that one must reasonably undertake just to acquire the basic trappings of Western living.

Yeah, the "STEM or don't go at all" bullshit that gets parroted around the manosphere isn't necessarily good advice. Regardless of your major, you need to actually learn how to figure shit out on your own. A humanities major who had to spend many hours alone in the library comparing sources and getting their research to make sense is probably going to do better in the job market than a business or science major who partied and got notes for all of their core classes from the internet.

I'm honestly sick of hearing the "STEM or don't go at all choir" to every young guy that has asked the question in the past couple of years or so. Engineering jobs get outsourced. People who have to major in something esoteric and figure it out on their own are probably going to have way better job skills down the road (believe it or not) if they actually take the major seriously.

Post: #14

(04-26-2014 12:49 AM)Vitriol Wrote:  

(04-25-2014 09:33 PM)Suits Wrote:  It could be argued that he is something of an outlier, but nevertheless, this story should remind even those in the manosphere who constantly parrot STEM, STEM, STEM that nothing is guaranteed.

A lot of STEM fields require a good amount of industry experience and a strong network before you can truly work for yourself.

At last a student who goes to a good liberal arts school (is there such thing?) may be encouraged to be looking for opportunities to run his own business from day one as a freshman.

The real problem with American society is not specifically the value of education, property or other aspirations, but rather the absurd debt load that one must reasonably undertake just to acquire the basic trappings of Western living.

Yeah, the "STEM or don't go at all" bullshit that gets parroted around the manosphere isn't necessarily good advice. Regardless of your major, you need to actually learn how to figure shit out on your own. A humanities major who had to spend many hours alone in the library comparing sources and getting their research to make sense is probably going to do better in the job market than a business or science major who partied and got notes for all of their core classes from the internet.

I'm honestly sick of hearing the "STEM or don't go at all choir" to every young guy that has asked the question in the past couple of years or so. Engineering jobs get outsourced. People who have to major in something esoteric and figure it out on their own are probably going to have way better job skills down the road (believe it or not) if they actually take the major seriously.

It really depends, doesn't it. First, taking into account what someone's interests are, and then the reality of the job market. But an aerospace engineer can get laid off, and a lawyer can be unemployed due to a glut of lawyers on the market. There's no sure thing.

Med or pharm school would be a safe bet. Or getting a PhD in A.I. But if you are going to commit to 10+ years of school you have to really want to do these things anyway. Not just b/c someone recommended "STEM".

There are a lot of obscure humanities degrees that common sense would suggest are not a good idea (or maybe idiotic) to pursue. But historically the liberal arts provided (and can provide) a broad classical education - in history, literature, philosophy, languages - an education that is useful in business, advertising, law, etc. The challenge is how to do it without amassing debt.

Post: #15

Historically yes, but today liberal arts does not teach much of the classical western stuff anymore. Languages are useful, though.

Post: #16

(04-26-2014 10:51 AM)RexImperator Wrote:  Historically yes, but today liberal arts does not teach much of the classical western stuff anymore. Languages are useful, though.

Agree.
A student would have to be proactive and it also depends on the school.
And the language part is crucial.

Post: #17

(04-26-2014 10:51 AM)RexImperator Wrote:  Historically yes, but today liberal arts does not teach much of the classical western stuff anymore. Languages are useful, though.

True, but if you study languages in a liberal arts setting, chances are you're massively overpaying for it. There are cheaper options for formal language instruction, and individual study with good materials and exposure to native speakers (over the internet if need be) will end up being a fraction of the cost with as much reward.

The_CEO Wrote:But historically the liberal arts provided (and can provide) a broad classical education - in history, literature, philosophy, languages - an education that is useful in business, advertising, law, etc.

For better or for worse, we're living in a world that demands specialists...unless they start their own businesses (in which case no education is necessary, just brains and guts) jacks-of-all-trades aren't highly valued.

Post: #18

(04-26-2014 11:10 AM)Saga Wrote:  

(04-26-2014 10:51 AM)RexImperator Wrote:  Historically yes, but today liberal arts does not teach much of the classical western stuff anymore. Languages are useful, though.

True, but if you study languages in a liberal arts setting, chances are you're massively overpaying for it. There are cheaper options for formal language instruction, and individual study with good materials and exposure to native speakers (over the internet if need be) will end up being a fraction of the cost with as much reward.

The_CEO Wrote:But historically the liberal arts provided (and can provide) a broad classical education - in history, literature, philosophy, languages - an education that is useful in business, advertising, law, etc.

For better or for worse, we're living in a world that demands specialists...unless they start their own businesses (in which case no education is necessary, just brains and guts) jacks-of-all-trades aren't highly valued.

Agree.

Post: #19

I agree. As a jack-of-all trades myself I can confirm this.

Post: #20

I find the whole "STEM or nothing" recommendations from the manosphere interesting, considering many people in the manosphere graduated with a liberal arts degree.

As always, experience is more important than education.

Post: #21

Hmm that really sucks but then again just about everyone in Europe has a masters and unemployment is quite an issue over there

Post: #22

The constant PR campaign behind STEM based initiatives isn't just found in the manosphere. Go to any online post regarding the American unemployment rate, and you'll see a comment or two from people with a one way ticket to STEM City.

I think the issue here is specialization, coupled with the ability to be extemporaneous enough to pass your interviews. If you're the sharpest tool in the shed, then your job is relatively safe, STEM or not. At the same time, I personally know people who went the engineering route in college, only to be met with a rude awakening after walking across the graduation stage. When you see things like this, you scratch your head, wondering how your potential situation could be. "WTF, he couldn't find work and he has an engineering degree?" Then it dawned on me.

Firstly, this person did next to nothing in terms of internships. No shaking of hands, no exchange of pleasantries with company HR personnel. Zilch.

As for me? The guy who majored in something "useless" greased palms, grinning from ear-to-ear while passing out business cards like they were Bolshevik leaflets.

Guess who has a job?

A while back, I read this article about the many Asian and Asian-Americans that cannot get past middle management, even though they have prestigious alma maters on their resumes. Even though they "look good on paper", many often lack the social skills needed to make the jump to the next level.

I think thats the golden ticket here in America. Find a way to get past the email culture of sending your CV in, and get out there and SHAKE SOME HANDS. If not, call. Keep calling until you get what you want.

Post: #23

^Agreed.

I got a liberal arts degree and majored in two useless subjects and yet I'll never be worried about having money, because in the course of completing my degree, I prioritized building experience in areas that would make me competitive.

My chosen route is not for everyone, especially guys who think that $100K is just an OK salary.

But for me it's perfect. I have the skills I need to live where I want, have a good degree of control over who I sell services to and essentially work for myself. No asshole boss to worry about, no company cutting in on my profits.

And for the cities where I choose to live, having a car is more of an inconvenience than an advantage, so guess what? I suddenly don't need to earn an extra $20K each year.

I don't think for a second that I'd be better of pursuing a STEM degree. I'm not suited to those subjects academically and studying in a liberal arts environment gave me the opportunity to explore many areas and be better prepared to be my own well rounded employee.

There just simply isn't one path to success. Depending on a person's desires and needs, there are different smart choices, which is good, because if everyone did the same thing, there would be some serious imbalance in the labour force.

Post: #24

(04-26-2014 10:44 AM)The_CEO Wrote:  

(04-26-2014 12:49 AM)Vitriol Wrote:  

(04-25-2014 09:33 PM)Suits Wrote:  It could be argued that he is something of an outlier, but nevertheless, this story should remind even those in the manosphere who constantly parrot STEM, STEM, STEM that nothing is guaranteed.

A lot of STEM fields require a good amount of industry experience and a strong network before you can truly work for yourself.

At last a student who goes to a good liberal arts school (is there such thing?) may be encouraged to be looking for opportunities to run his own business from day one as a freshman.

The real problem with American society is not specifically the value of education, property or other aspirations, but rather the absurd debt load that one must reasonably undertake just to acquire the basic trappings of Western living.

Yeah, the "STEM or don't go at all" bullshit that gets parroted around the manosphere isn't necessarily good advice. Regardless of your major, you need to actually learn how to figure shit out on your own. A humanities major who had to spend many hours alone in the library comparing sources and getting their research to make sense is probably going to do better in the job market than a business or science major who partied and got notes for all of their core classes from the internet.

I'm honestly sick of hearing the "STEM or don't go at all choir" to every young guy that has asked the question in the past couple of years or so. Engineering jobs get outsourced. People who have to major in something esoteric and figure it out on their own are probably going to have way better job skills down the road (believe it or not) if they actually take the major seriously.

It really depends, doesn't it. First, taking into account what someone's interests are, and then the reality of the job market. But an aerospace engineer can get laid off, and a lawyer can be unemployed due to a glut of lawyers on the market. There's no sure thing.

Med or pharm school would be a safe bet. Or getting a PhD in A.I. But if you are going to commit to 10+ years of school you have to really want to do these things anyway. Not just b/c someone recommended "STEM".

There are a lot of obscure humanities degrees that common sense would suggest are not a good idea (or maybe idiotic) to pursue. But historically the liberal arts provided (and can provide) a broad classical education - in history, literature, philosophy, languages - an education that is useful in business, advertising, law, etc. The challenge is how to do it without amassing debt.

Classical Western (and Eastern) education was dedicated to creating refined men that could particpate and lead in society ie. gentlemen. These days education is pretty much just seen as vocational training/preparing someone for a job - how many times have we heard "but what are you going to use that degree for after school". Seems like to me in the US only a few Catholic institutions offer the classical liberal arts education these days.

Post: #25

Certain fields of STEM curriculum jobs will inevitably begin filling up (and have) and location independence, as in any field, will be the #1 determinant, then ultimately location will matter less and less until positions are filled globally.

Choosing your field of study is akin to a long-term stock market trade. You'd better do your due diligence in that arena or you could wind up finding difficulty saddled with mad debt.

I live in the midwest and there are many, many engineers here. About half the engineers I know personally are hired into, or duped into management or supervisory positions at semi-technical companies, and either relocate far out of state across the country - OR - take work in completely unrelated fields.

Same goes for nurses, biology, medicine. Now out west is the place to be if you're going into medicine. But we're close to filling many of the nursing positions and many medical positions where I live right now.

When you have a heart regarding family, it can ruin your job potential, when you feel it necessary to stay in town due to family events. I could have a much better job and would not have experienced a few bouts of unemployment over the last 6 years if 1) My dad didn't die leaving my mom widowed, and 2) I could win in court to take my 6 yr old daughter with me, but that won't happen.

Higher Ed, barring a fair amount of STEM degrees, but not all, IMHO has become a scam. What are you really retaining? 3-7% maximum of all that schooling? Highly inefficient. Every second you don't use it after graduating, that retention % is degrading too.

What frightens me, is the amount of youth with master's/graduate degrees who still seem to lack the benchmark of standard intellect.

The one benefit of actually being a jack of all trades so to speak, is you can usually teach these folks the operational daily tasks of what most specially trained people do within a few weeks or months. However, you can't so easily train many highly specialized folks the expansive knowledge of a jack of all trades quite often.

I think if I had to re-school myself or decide to go back, it would be to be "somewhat" specialized, but not too few or too many eggs in 1 basket.