Post: #1

So I am very tall and have always been thin. I am doing 5x5 stronglifts, getting along nicely, but my squatting is getting weird.

After squatting a little less than my bodyweight, my muscles are not really that tired, but my knee joints are sore for days. Im worried I am doing skmething wrong and that I may hurt my knees.

I have talked with much more experienced guys at my gym who are not tall and they say my technique is really good. So maybe there is something tall skinny guys should do that avg. Height guys dont take into account?

Any help so that I can continue doing more and more without fucking my knees would be great.

Post: #2

What type of shoes are you wearing?

When it comes to any type of heavy compound lift of the legs you always want to lift either bare foot or with a flat soled shoe that doesn't compress and add padding.

I hurt my right knee deadlift in running shoes. I know stupid.

Also consider taking fish oil. That will help with joint pain.

Are you going to parallel or below? I

Post: #3

noooo no flat soles
try weightlifter shoes
or just try putting some small plates under your soles
that alone took care of my knee problems from squatting and im very tall too
also do highbar squat, no lowbar

Post: #4

Sounds like your patellar tendon which passes right over your knee. I'm tall and a basketball player... My PT gets sore. Best thing to do is stretching, ice, and rest. Tight quads will put extra pressure on your PT

Post: #5

How long have you been squatting for?

How tall are you?

I'm 6'4" and I have never had issues squatting. Then again you could be 6'7" so that would be a different story.

Sounds like it's more pain vs soreness.

If it continues then ask your doctor

Post: #6

I am going to parallel. Sometimes wear basketball sneakers, sometimes cheap flat soled walking shoes.

I am 6'3", 185lbs. Not a giant, but since my legs arent strong to begin with I worry that the major muscles are getting stronger while smaller supports in my knees are not there yet.

I have only been squatting a few months consistently, doing 5x5 of 155, not even heavy really.

I am thinking of ditching 5x5 on squats and lowering the weight 10-20 lbs and going for 6-8 reps to make sure I dont kill my knees.

What is the deal with people standing on plates for squats? For deadlifts I thought the idea was you basically go down a little lower since youre a little higher, making the lift a bit more intense. But for squats?

Post: #7

I know that squats is pretty much the # 1 exercise for your body, but you might have some knee damage if you're sore for days!! Try skipping squats until you can get your knees checked out. Until then use a squat rack if your gym has one or load up the plates on the Leg press machine.

If your gym doesn't have a squat rack, go balls deep on the leg press since it will help offset the non squatting. Don't worry about it though. Even without squatting, you can get some powerful legs. The famous bodybuilder Dorian Yates had the same issue and won 6 Mr Olympia titles... in a row!!

Post: #8

Ditch the crappy ball sneakers. Go buy some cheap Hi-top Chuck Taylors for $25 as they will be better, or go in socks.

^ don't listen to the hype on shoes with the backs raised. It's the big hype right now and I still see the old school guys lifting in Chucks or wrestling shoes with no issues. That's Crosssfit hype that has infected lifting. Only for massive amours of weights for Olympic lifts, or if you have shitty form (hello Crossfitters), should you use them. IMO build up your foot stability strength first the old school way with good flat footing.

Next your knees. I have really delicate knees from fucking them up playing football and there is a balance game you play in pushing heaving sets and been attentive to your knees. Your knees has to win win out. Listen to them and not to your routine. Sometimes a little pain is minor and expected but you should hopefully know enough about your body if you have a background in sports to know when your pushing it, and when to tone it down.

Next, again with the knees. WARM THEM UP. Seriously. I have to spend 30 mins just warming up my knees and legs just to be able to squat well without pain. I will do extensions on the quad machine with low weights for a good 10 mins, then I go on the bike to get my legs warm, and if it's wintertime sometimes I take a towel run it under the shower with hot water and warm up my knees with that also for about a minute. Also a good tip to wear leggings to hold the best in your knees and legs.

Then lastly, always wrap your knees. They just might be a weak point of yours and so you just have to take extra care of them. You can get designer knee wraps like the blue shark ones people rate highly, but they are very pricy. I just use some tensor knee supports from the pharmacy. Just make sure you get the right size for your knees, and they are more than good enough to help keep stability and warmth in the knees.

Lastly, the hard truth that you will have to dial it down to get more strength in your knees. If you want to still lift heavy try FRONT SQUATS as it takes the weight away from your knees and draws it in so you don't feel it at all in your knees going down (if your form is good, if not, your knees let you know..quickly). Then focus in on stability and tendon training with your back squats with lowering the weight significantly, and focus in the movement and going as low as you can to force some (good) tension in the knees that will make them stronger and not overload them. I have strong legs but since my knees are very weak Ive had to start from scratch with low weights to build my knees back up.

The last real truth is that if your knees are royally fucked... don't troll your ego going for a 1rM in your back squat. It's something I'll never know because it's a hit or miss if my knees can take it. Those stars only align once a year, if that, sometimes for me and I'll try it out. Your program isn't going to help you if you get chronic shooting pain in the knees just from ONE fuck up.. So be smart and rational about it. You can still build weight strength with a reverse hack squat machine. I use this to push my weight up and give my quads and hams weight/volume stress but I stay more attentive on the squat rack. Leaving tension to the back and load work with the front squats.

The Front+Back+Reverse-Hack machine combo has worked well for me for the past 11 months.

Post: #9

Since you're not even using bodyweight, it sounds like a technique problem. The 2 most common causes of knee pain is when the knees buckle in or if the knees go too far over your toes. A lack of ankle mobility could also prevent you from getting into the right squat position. But without a video of you squatting from different angles, we can only speculate.

Post: #10

Firstly, start here.

Youtube


2: This may seem confusing but what is your stance like? There are two definitive squats that vary in stance. There is the olympic squat which has the legs and hips closer together and the powerlifting style which relies on having the legs further apart.

I am 6'2" and when i started squatting regularly I found the hardest part being technique.

You need to prevent your legs from 'caving'. You also need to prevent your knee's flying way over your toes. If you were to put a ruler from your knee to your toes, how far are they from being aligned?

3: Flexibility is key. Your entire posterior chain requires a flexibility to get the most out of back squatting.

Your quads are tightened up from the pressure build-up and your quads and hams are pulling in the other direction. All of this combines into the knee ligament area and creates a very uncomfortable ache.

Learn how to stretch and warm up.

4: Technique >weight

Never put weight on the bar where you cannot retain a straight/arched back and which makes you flop around at the bottom.

5: Go below parallel. You'll prefer it trust me. It is a natural position and you can 'bounce' out of the lift better.

Post: #11

Go see an osteopath.

It sounds to me like you have some mobility issues. White dudes usually this problem around their ankles (according to my osteopath its genetic). Maybe hip and hamstrings are tight also. This is easy to fix, you need someone to pop it back into place, an osteopath, and then roll it with a lacrosse ball and foam roller.

Theres a purpose of the raised solid heels in the oly lifting shoes. Because your squatting A2G, where your hamstrings are touching your calves, your ankles flex forward and the raised heel helps with that by making it easier to go forward even more. Also for front squats, the CNJ in oly lifting, a lot of people go up on their toes so the raised heel helps for that also.

For warming up, you should gradually increase the weight until you get to your working sets. Maybe hit the rowing machine for 5 minutes before. For me, I just do light stretching.

I wouldn't suggest you wrap your knees until your doing more weight, at least over your bodyweight as a bare minimum. Right now your building your foundation so by using wraps your just supplicating a problem instead of fixing it. Later on when you do more weight the same problem is going to come back

Some people suggest standing on plates, I think its stupid because every time you trow a plate on the ground its going to be in a different position so every time you squat, your going down and up in a different position. Not to mention if you have a heavy ass weight on your back and trip over a plate or something...

Just get shoes with a raised heel if you need it, dedicate those shoes to lifting only. No running, no walking, just lifting.

When I first started doing oly lifts, my coach told me to get old dress shoes because they have a raised heel and are solid. If your broke then you can get away with those for $10 from a value village or something. Chucks are actually pretty bad for lifting because they're cushioned just like basketball shoes. This doesn't mean you can't lift heavy ass weight in them, its just they'll make your legs less stable.

One last thing is to learn how to dump the weight properly if you feel like its too much or if you get into a weird position. If your doing back squats you can dump it either behind you or in front pretty easy. For front squats its pretty straight forward.

The only thing being tall changes is that your ROM will be longer than a shorter guy and that the mechanics of the squat might slightly change. I suggest you go full ROM, A2G.

Post: #12

I'm tall, have thin legs, and have had knee trouble. For me elevating my heels using plates made a world of difference. The surprising thing was that after squatting for a few months with raised heels, I was able to ditch the plates and do them with flat feet. Using the plates as a crutch allowed my body to develop the strength and flexibility, or groove the movement pattern, or something.

You say your form is good, but I know for me, it took a long time to get to a form I'm happy with...and there were several points along the way when I felt I had it right, but was wrong. Be sure you have a wide enough stance, and feet pointed out. You should feel like you are dropping between your knees, rather than folding your body over them. Push your knees out and drop your hips between them, keeping your chest high.

I see a lot of guys at the gym using too much weight and doing painful, awkward, unstable squats (like I used to). They all stop above parallel, and some are only making it 1/4 of the way down. When your form is right, going down isn't hard; you don't have to push your butt out and arch your back in an exaggerated way or use an extreme fold at your hips to get low. You can drop quickly and smoothly while keeping your torso fairly upright, and the position feels athletic, like you could jump out of it. The weight is evenly distributed over your foot. (The cue to sit back and push through your heels is to counter the common tendency to break the knees too far forward and put the weight on the balls of your feet, but the ideal distribution is even, not heel-dominant.)

I'm not a trainer, but that has been my experience.

Post: #13

Weightlifting shoes make a huge difference, take it from a guy who's trained in the olympic lifts for a while. Also, forget about this "only go to parallel stuff" Because when you stop short of a full range of motion, you place extra stress on the knee. I always go ass to grass, not that you have to, but it is the most comfortable and works the glutes far more.

Focus on not letting the knees track over the toes, you want a squat to look like you're sitting on a very deep chair. If your knees are over your toes, there will be unneeded stress on them.

Form is everything, if you could post a video so we could critique it, or go on a forum specifically for weightlifting/bodybuilding and ask, you will benefit.

Other than that, wrapping the knees is a good idea, however you're still at less than body weight, so I would hold off on this until you're squatting much heavier. And don't neglect the kinetic chain, so if something is fucked up at your hips, it will translate to your knees and ankles. Hip flexibility is underrated and not spoken about enough for squats IMO. Work on opening the hips and through adduction and abduction exercises, you will see benefit, I almost guarantee it.

I'm only 6 foot, but I've had to build up my squat from nothing after my broken back, and I emphasize again, form is everything.

Post: #14

(05-14-2014 05:30 PM)Yuan Wrote:  Since you're not even using bodyweight, it sounds like a technique problem. The 2 most common causes of knee pain is when the knees buckle in or if the knees go too far over your toes.

Ding ding ding. This is the winner right here.

OP when I started I had your exact same stats. 6'3" 185 lbs. After about 9 months of squatting I started getting acute knee pain.

Prophylaxis here correctly diagnosed it as a quad tendinopathy, the tendon that wraps over your knee. After many youtube videos and watching videos of myself squatting, I realized my knees were going too far forward.

When you start the movement, it shouldn't be your knees buckling. The movement should start simultaneously at your hips and knees. You may need to work on hip flexibility for this and do some foam rolling first thing in the morning. Make sure you warm up with air squats and empty bar.

If you currently have knee pain, stop squatting for a week or until the pain subsides, and then get back into it with a slight deload, 10-20%.

As you squat down, visualize your knees staying as vertical as possible. Obviously they're going to bend forward, aligning with your toes, but if you make a concerted effort to keep them vertical, and sticking your ass way out, you should hit the correct movement and relieve some of the stress load on your knees. You should easily be able to go past parallel. Your core and glutes should be completely flexed before the rep.

This guy is pretty on point:





After your set, you should feel it in your quads, glutes, and lower back, not your knees.

It's more about form than shoes, but shoes are important. Go to a thrift store and pick up a pair of chuck taylors for $10

Post: #15

In addition to what everyone else said, try box squats to learn good form and using a safety squat bar.

The bar puts maximum strain on your knees when your legs are parallel to thee ground - so squatting with less weight further down can give you a better workout and less knee strain.

Post: #16

Op, this is a technique problem. When you squat, you're suppose to lead with the hips. The knees don't bend to the latter part of the movement. I see a lot of guys doing 'knee squats' and it's painful to watch, they're literally destroying the cartilage there one rep at a time.

I'd recommend ditching the barbell for a few weeks. Just do bodyweight squats, ass to calves. Use a 2-1-2 tempo. That will build the strength and more importantly the mobility to handle weighted squats.


Edit: the dude337 explained it better than I did. Spot on.

Post: #17

Obviously views differ on elevated heels vs. a flat shoe like a Chuck. A true weightlifting shoe has an elevated heel and they are used by some of the best lifters in the world (albeit for Olympic lifting). http://coachdanbell.wordpress.com/2014/0...-position/

if you haven't tried raising your heel, either with shoes or by standing on 5 lb plates, I'd at least try it, like I said before.

I also disagree with trying using bodyweight squats to get your form down. My squatting position is much better with weight on my shoulders than without. Sitting back into a squat throws my center of balance backward; without a weight on my shoulders I have to lean too far forward with my torso to compensate. Weight on my shoulders balances out the shift of weight backward as I stick my butt out, so it actually allows me to keep my torso more upright.

I'm sure this isn't an issue if you have perfect ankle and hip mobility and can easily drop into a 'third world squat,' but that isn't most of us (and sure isn't me). http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_arti...orld_squat

Post: #18

lol at "weightlifter shoes are crossfit hype" comment
olympic lifters all use weightlifting shoes... and what do they do? squats!
Johnny Candito recommends them too and his videos on proper squat form are the best on youtube IMO.
Also if your tall you should disregard anything Mark Rippetoe has to say regarding the squat
no driving with the hips nonsense and no low-bar squat.
I had constant knee pain when I was trying to squat that way
Now I do high-bar squats with elevated heels and its a LOT more stable... knee problems 100% gone
at the end of the day you have to find what works for you theres tons of conflicting info on weightlifting

Post: #19

I think Kosko is dead-on. (and agree with the crossfit hype comment about shoes...so much more than shoes going on here).

Just wanted to back Kosko up on recommendation for using wraps. You should really consider using a high quality knee wrap. I stand by the Inzer products. I lifted in these wraps for many years and they will give you a ton of support. The key drawback is that they are time consuming...so, unless you are trying to go for heavier lifts, it may eat up too much clock for what you are doing.

I just ordered the knee sleeves to see if they are more practical. (especially since I'm not into bending the bar anymore). I will report back on if they provide a good balance of support along with time management. (Inzer has yet to fail me...so, I have high expectations).

Post: #20

How bout....not doing squats for a while? I dont know, man, I would listen to my body. Take a break, read up on good form, and in the meantime do some other exercises.

Post: #21

(05-15-2014 10:29 AM)Ryre Wrote:  I also disagree with trying using bodyweight squats to get your form down. My squatting position is much better with weight on my shoulders than without. Sitting back into a squat throws my center of balance backward; without a weight on my shoulders I have to lean too far forward with my torso to compensate. Weight on my shoulders balances out the shift of weight backward as I stick my butt out, so it actually allows me to keep my torso more upright.

I'm sure this isn't an issue if you have perfect ankle and hip mobility and can easily drop into a 'third world squat,' but that isn't most of us (and sure isn't me). http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_arti...orld_squat

If you don't have the ankle/hip mobility to do BW squats, then you have no business doing weighted. Get flexible, then get strong.

Post: #22

I also do the 5x5 Stronglifts as well and agree with the other guys that have mentioned it above is that with proper form is everything. I always practice with an empty bar first to get proper form. I hit a plateau before with back and knee pains with squats. I reset the weight back and worked on my form and now I am 1.5x my bodyweight with no pains

Post: #23

@Anonnymus123 - The INZER wraps are the best for offering support, nothing comes close, I agree.

I managed to umm... well.. "find"... a pair of INZER wraps at my gym and was using them for a bit (Careless YOLOs always be forgetting their high end gear at the gym.... a little warm water, hand washing, air dry, and you got yourself some new wraps, straps, bands, and whatever else. I give zero fucks.. I keep that shit when I find it). The re-wrapping after each set gets annoying but I found it did offer great support but for my own knees (personally) just keeping them warm was good enough. If your going heavy as hell then they are great to use. I did find to get that good level of support I had to wrap them way too tight which ended up causing odd pain in my knees some reps, it felt off, so I ditched them.

Now a adjustable knee sleeve would be the best of both worlds.

@ The OP

Take a look at this video:




Your knee placement/movements might be off, or possibly your core. My core is fairly sound but my knees were still flinging around and these tips did help me in getting them stabilized. The belt squat thing felt strange for me, so I used two quarter plates instead and positioned them in a way at the outside-end of me feet where I could think about rounding my toes/feet out towards them, pushing off, and then subconsciously push out my knees at the same time (I don't recommend that, since its my own personal hack, I would have to show you a picture of how its done). I would do this with low weight going extremely deep to get the good tension on my knees. But overall his tips helped me in the steps to build up strength in my knees for my back squats.

The Next big YOLO trend:



I seen two jacked up Asian dudes on roids with this thing. Evreybody was crowding around like kids in grade school with the dude coming with the Pokemon cards for the first time. Regardless of the fact dude hacks the weights with his roided pizza back and face, people will still impressed with his toy. Ended up seeing two more YOLOs with the Sling shots a month later...

The Bodybuilding industry is full of scams. The basics haven't changed since the 70's and 80's. Literally. Aside from a few subtle new breakthroughs in supplements and maybe some nutrition hacks. Your not really fucking with the fundamentals. Everything that is coming on-line is just fads to take away money. You see rookies with too much money, not enough patience, decked out in all the trendy stuff thinking it will get them gains. I was the same. I thought you had to drown yourself in 50 supplements and wear under armor from head to toe to get gains. Its all BS.

Learning the simple foundations is all you need. Minor tweaks to adjust things for your own personal situation but that's about it.

Post: #24

Try doing the leg extension machine before squats.

Post: #25

(05-14-2014 05:30 PM)Yuan Wrote:  Since you're not even using bodyweight, it sounds like a technique problem. The 2 most common causes of knee pain is when the knees buckle in or if the knees go too far over your toes. A lack of ankle mobility could also prevent you from getting into the right squat position. But without a video of you squatting from different angles, we can only speculate.

This is spot on. I doubt that OP's issue is from any geometry issues or poor shoes (though shoes might be part of the issue). Chances are that when you're squatting your knees are going over your toes. You're probably not using your hips enough. Could also be from a lack of ankle mobility. A good temporary solution for the ankle mobility issue is to do squats with your heels elevated on weight plates. Also, a good regression you should do is to place a box behind you about 6-8 inches and to sit down on it after the eccentric motion. If you're ass isn't landing on the box then you need to use your hips more.

Difficult to assess without seeing a video