Post: #1

From India, Proof That a Trip to Mars Doesn’t Have to Break the Bank

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/18/busine....html?_r=0



BANGALORE, India — While India’s recent launch of a spacecraft to Mars was a remarkable feat in its own right, it is the $75 million mission’s thrifty approach to time, money and materials that is getting attention.

Just days after the launch of India’s Mangalyaan satellite, NASA sent off its own Mars mission, five years in the making, named Maven. Its cost: $671 million. The budget of India’s Mars mission, by contrast, was just three-quarters of the $100 million that Hollywood spent on last year’s space-based hit, “Gravity.”

“The mission is a triumph of low-cost Indian engineering,” said Roddam Narasimha, an aerospace scientist and a professor at Bangalore’s Jawaharlal Nehru Center for Advanced Scientific Research.

“By excelling in getting so much out of so little, we are establishing ourselves as the most cost-effective center globewide for a variety of advanced technologies,” said Mr. Narasimha.

India’s 3,000-pound Mars satellite carries five instruments that will measure methane gas, a marker of life on the planet. Maven (for Mars Atmosphere and Volatile Evolution), weighs nearly twice as much but carries eight heavy-duty instruments that will investigate what went wrong in the Martian climate, which could have once supported life.

“Ours is a contrasting, inexpensive and innovative approach to the very complex mission,” said K. Radhakrishnan, the chairman of the Indian Space Research Organization, or ISRO, in an interview at the space agency’s heavily guarded Bangalore headquarters. “Yet it is a technically well-conceived and designed mission,” he said. Wealthier countries may have little incentive to pursue technological advances on the cheap, but not a populous, resource-starved country. So jugaad, or building things creatively and inexpensively, has become a national strength. India built the world’s cheapest car ($2,500), the world’s cheapest tablet ($49), and even quirkier creations like flour mills powered by scooters.



“If necessity is the mother of invention, constraint is the mother of frugal innovation,” said Terri Bresenham, the chief executive of GE Healthcare, South Asia, who is based in Bangalore. GE Healthcare has the largest research and development operations in India and has produced low-cost innovations in infant health, cancer detection and heart disease treatment.

In India, even a priority sector like space research gets a meager 0.34 percent of the country’s total annual outlay. Its $1 billion space budget is only 5.5 percent of NASA’s budget.

ISRO has learned to make cost-effectiveness a daily mantra. Its inexpensive but reliable launch capabilities have become popular for the launches of small French, German and British satellites. Although the space agency had to build ground systems from scratch, its Chandrayaan moon mission in 2008 cost one-tenth what other nations’ moon shots cost, said Mylswamy Annadurai, mission director.

The most obvious way ISRO does it is low-cost engineering talent, the same reason so many software firms use Indian engineers. India’s abundant supply of young technical talent helped rein in personnel costs to less than 15 percent of the budget. “Rocket scientists in India cost very little,” said Ajey Lele, a researcher at a New Delhi think tank, the Institute for Defense Studies and Analyses, and author of “Mission Mars: India’s Quest for the Red Planet.”

Continue reading the main story

The average age of India’s 2,500-person Mars team is 27. “At 50, I am the oldest member of my team; the next oldest is 32,” said Subbiah Arunan, the project’s director. Entry-level Indian space engineers make about $1,000 a month, less than a third of what their Western counterparts make.

The Indians also had a short development schedule that contributed heavily to the mission’s low cost, said Andrew Coates, planetary scientist at University College London and a leader of the European ExoMars expedition planned for 2018. The engineers had to compress their efforts into 18 months (other countries’ space vehicles have taken six years or more to build). It was either launch by November 2013 or wait another 26 months when the geometry of the sun, Mars and Earth would again be perfect for a launch.

“Since the time was so short, for the first time in the history of such a project, we scheduled tasks by the hour — not days, not weeks,” said Mr. Arunan. Mr. Radhakrishnan added: “Could we pull it off in less than two years’ time? Frankly, I doubted it.”

The modest budget did not allow for multiple iterations. So, instead of building many models (a qualification model, a flight model and a flight spare), as is the norm for American and European agencies, scientists built the final flight model right from the start. Expensive ground tests were also limited. “India’s ‘late beginner’ advantage was that it could learn from earlier mission failures,” said Mr. Lele.

“It is a question of philosophy, and each country has its own,” explained Mr. Radhakrishnan. “The Russians, for example, believe in putting large amounts of time and resources into testing so that the systems are robust.”

His agency curbed costs by another technique familiar to businesses in India: transforming old technology into new. The launch vehicle was first developed in the late 1970s and was augmented several times to become the solid propulsion system currently used in its latest Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehiclelauncher.

The G.S.L.V.’s engine also dates back to the early 1970s, when ISRO engineers used technology transferred from France’s Ariane program. The same approach, which the Indian scientists call modularity, extended to building spacecraft and communication systems. “We sometimes have to trade off an ideal configuration for cost-effectiveness, but the heritage is being improved constantly,” said Mr. Radhakrishnan.

Cost savings also came from using similar systems across a dozen concurrent projects. Many related technologies could be used in the Mars project; Astrosat, an astronomy mission to be launched in late 2014; the second moon mission, which is two years away; and even Aditya, a solar mission four years out.

Systems like the attitude control, which maintains the orientation of the spacecraft; the gyro, a sensor that measures the satellite’s deviation from its set path; or the star tracker, a sensor that orients the satellite to distant objects in the celestial sphere, are the same across several ISRO missions.

“The building blocks are kept the same so we don’t have to tailor-make for each mission,” said Mr. Annadurai of the moon mission. “Also, we have a ready backup if a system fails.”

Teams also did the kind of thing engineers working on missions do around the world. They worked through weekends with no overtime pay, putting in more hours to the dollar. Mr. Arunan slept on the couch in his office through the 18 months, rereading his favorite P. G. Wodehouse novels to relieve stress. "This is the Indian way of working,” said Mr. Annadurai.

Despite its cost-effectiveness, many have argued that India’s extraterrestrial excursions are profligate in a country starved of even basic necessities like clean drinking water and toilets. Millions sleep hungry at night, critics have emphasized. They condemn the Mars mission as nothing more than showing off.

But scientists have argued that early Indian satellites paved the way for today’s advanced disaster management systems and modern telecom infrastructure. In the 1970s, cyclones killed tens of thousands of people. Last year, when Cyclone Phailin struck India’s east coast, the casualties were in the single digits. In the 1980s, television broadcasts were available in only four Indian cities, but today they are found countrywide.

The Mars mission is also having a multiplier effect on Indian industry. Companies like Larsen & Toubro and Godrej & Boyce, which built vital parts for the satellite, will use this high-tech expertise to compete for global aerospace, military and nuclear contracts worth billions of dollars. Godrej, for example, has begun making engine parts for Boeing.

Scientists have also said that space exploration and the alleviation of poverty need not be mutually exclusive. “If the Mars mission’s $75 million was distributed equally to every Indian, they would be able to buy a cup of roadside chai once every three years,” said Mr. Narasimha, the aerospace scientist, referring to the tea that many Indians drink.

“My guess is that even the poorest Indians will happily forgo their chai to be able to see their country send a rocket all the way to Mars.”

Post: #2

No way it makes it will bet IRT or anyone else as much money as I have.

"Low cost engineering"


Edit: The giant jiffy pop pan on the top will not make it into orbit either.

Post: #3

Lol at thread title and forum selection (Travel).

Post: #4

Aren't there people dying with Leprosy in the streets of Mumbai? Whey wasting $671 million on a satellite? They have way bigger problems to think about.

Post: #5

Quote:India’s 3,000-pound Mars satellite carries five instruments that will measure methane gas, a marker of life on the planet.

You'd think they'd be tired of sniffing methane with all the cows running around over there.

Post: #6

India has one of the best space programs in the world. Its been on a roll for the last decade (unlike NASA). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Spac...ganisation

I could also say the same about NASA. Aren't there homeless people and impoverished people in the USA? Why isn't America diverting all its funds to help them out?

Indian research will get a giant boost from these programs. This will help its universities create better programs, which will help India develop new industries.

You guys are trolling by hating. Maybe Parlay's jealous that NASA's been on a downward spiral recently? Enjoy sippin' that haterade.

I hate this bullshit from senior members. Just because one Indian dude trolled you guys a few years ago, you decide to hate on an entire race. Not much better than the Heartiste & neoreactionary crew if you ask me. Some seriously racist shit going down here.

Post: #7

(07-01-2014 07:21 PM)xpatplayer Wrote:  India has one of the best space programs in the world. Its been on a roll for the last decade (unlike NASA). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Spac...ganisation

I could also say the same about NASA. Aren't there homeless people and impoverished people in the USA? Why isn't America diverting all its funds to help them out?

Indian research will get a giant boost from these programs. This will help its universities create better programs, which will help India develop new industries.

You guys are trolling by hating. Maybe Parlay's jealous that NASA's been on a downward spiral recently? Enjoy sippin' that haterade.

I hate this bullshit from senior members. Just because one Indian dude trolled you guys a few years ago, you decide to hate on an entire race. Not much better than the Heartiste & neoreactionary crew if you ask me. Some seriously racist shit going down here.

Agreed, not that I'm that bothered but I enjoyed the article. They've actually been quite successful in their space ventures. After all unlike western nations that focus on 'liberal arts' in universities these days, the indians do focus on engineering, sciences, medicine and maths. Which is why they come to our countries and take all our jobs..bastards

Post: #8

If they beat us to Mars...

Post: #9

I'm not hating. It's all in good fun. I believe the Indian Trolling Phenomenom is more a cultural thing than a race thing. I'm friends with Indian dudes and we bust on each other all the time. And honestly they live up to the trolling stereotype perpetrated by the original IRT that we know and love. That's why I and others here find it so funny. It's cultural not racist.

Post: #10

Of course they can do it cheaper. This is the same country that brought you this:

Post: #11

Just started looking around that website... http://www.myindiapictures.com There's some gold:

Post: #12

@Mech be careful with your dough, the IRT satellite was launched in November of last year (the article is from February), and as of June 12th it has already covered a distance of 466 million km out of the total of 680 million. It is scheduled to enter Mars orbit on September 24th, and so far it seems to be doing well.

If you do decide to bet all your money, you can follow it here:

http://www.isro.org/mars/updates.aspx

@xpatplayer, Parlay is definitely not hating and the thread title is awesome and something every Indian dude should be proud of. What other country can be said to have TROLLED MARS?!!

As far as the streets of Mumbai, strong cultures care about more things than protecting the weak and the poor -- the idea that that is the greatest value is a feminine idea. Masculine cultures understand that the need for progress, achievement, and glory is the highest value of all -- and of course the fruits of the drive for progress eventually benefit the weak and the strong alike.

As someone said, the poor you will always have with you...

Post: #13

It could actually be a great opportunity for India - if India is successful, it will have a proven record and ability to launch payloads into orbit, let alone to Mars, at a fraction of the rate of most competitors.

Post: #14

India should get its priorities straight. It's going to explore outer space, and half the country doesn't have access to a toilet.

Post: #15

Agree Basil. In the future, Indian companies may get billions for cheap but quality material. Especially when you think about a growing global telecom sector.

Troll Indians all you want but I'm buying some shares in Godrej & GE. They will definitely increase in value in 10 - 15 years.

Post: #16

It won't be so funny when Indians colonize Mars in 50 years, while Americans will be spending their money on military operations in Morocco, Malaysia or Mexico.

Post: #17

(07-01-2014 07:49 PM)bojangles Wrote:  After all unlike western nations that focus on 'liberal arts' in universities these days, the indians do focus on engineering, sciences, medicine and maths. Which is why they come to our countries and take all our jobs..bastards

There are two sides to this enthusiasm. The nationwide IT obsession has meant increasing neglect of India's history. Millions of unread manuscripts in Sanskrit alone rot in neglected archives (the reluctance of administrators to let foreign scholars in to read and digitize them doesn't help). For all the Patels in the world, there is no longer a single person expert in the Old Gujarati language.
Not to glorify humanities in the US, where you can earn a PhD by "queering" Tom and Jerry cartoons, but I would prioritize preserving India's massive heritage over third-rate space experiments.

Post: #18

(07-01-2014 07:21 PM)xpatplayer Wrote:  I could also say the same about NASA. Aren't there homeless people and impoverished people in the USA? Why isn't America diverting all its funds to help them out?

This is absolutely true. Why the fuck IS the US wasting money on NASA when we're in something like 17 trillion dollars of debt and people are homeless? What a waste of my hard-earned tax dollars...

Post: #19

(07-01-2014 11:39 PM)Bacchus Wrote:  India should get its priorities straight. It's going to explore outer space, and half the country doesn't have access to a toilet.

There's a big difference between countries like North Korea, which slaughters and enslaves its citizens in order to squeeze in that last expensive rocket part, and India which uses its modest budget to make innovative rocket parts for cheap. Don't muddy the waters.

Post: #20

(07-01-2014 04:24 PM)travolta Wrote:  Aren't there people dying with Leprosy in the streets of Mumbai? Whey wasting $671 million on a satellite? They have way bigger problems to think about.

There are some 16.000.000 million children living in poverty in the USA, not to talk about the 700.000 million homeless, elderly people who have to work at an age in which most people in developed countries are playing golf just because some smart guy in Wall Street galmbled with his pension fund, young people with student loans equivalent to mortages their parents took to buy their houses, and so it goes and goes. Should Obama abolish NASA and dedicate dedicate its budget to feed the poor and needy?

I'm still astonished by how fast is India changing from being an undeveloped mostly agricultural country into one for which to an industrialized nation against all odds and in spite of their complex social and demographic composition. Give them a chance. I remember another country with smaller budget than the USA space program which didn't do so bad:

Post: #21

I'm from India. My first post..Hello Everybody

To control 1.2 billion humans, that's 17% world population or like the entire population of North America and Europe combined..We need more than HOPE to get going as a country.

What if few millions start thinking on their own? Its a gigantic PSY-OP sponsored by your truly CIA and NASA.

The real guys in ISRO were already fired who knew what was really going on thanks to our puppet prime minister.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/A...745659.ece

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/antri...72071.html

The former chairman of ISRO Madhavan Nair was the real deal, He was responsible for bringing up ISRO to what it is today, he along with many scientists were fired due to some made up scams...Many other scientist resigned along with him.

This mars mission is really a cover up to what really happened inside ISRO, they are projecting a successful mission as if to show nothing happened and its business as usual. Many know who were behind removal of the real scientists in India, thanks to CIA and our prime minster, they created a scam around the good guys and removed them...this is just a cover up...The best and the brightest in ISRO are already gone...

hmmmm...Where have we heard these kind of stories before...good'ol US of A ofcourse where lame stream media, political class combine with secret agencies to remove or terminate the good guys.

Its the same in India. Indian media is totally, completely sold out to the corporations and the west. NY times really? The No.1 Media sell out from America...Do we really think NY Times will print any truth or without a node from the CIA?

This Mars mission was sponsored by NASA from behind...They are just making up stories...ohh look...poor third world countries can create mars missions for 1/100 of the cost...look what USA and NASA couldn't do..Poor third world countries can...really?

They have already run this brainwashing propaganda in India to divert the attention of their secret mission....now its all fairy tale.

Have anyone been to India recently...How was the dating ..hehehe...As many have written here..India is the worst place to get laid, its polluted, dirty and below hell..The guys with best PUA games couldn't get hold of a single girl in India thats like 600 million girls....and thats how brainwashed we are..in all aspects of life...People are not allowed to think for themselves, be independent much like rest of Asia...we need to conform to certain social mind set engineered by Media and government.

This whole Mars mission is just that...A Media drama

Come I will show you real India..Its Below Hell...Have anyone seen Slum Dog Millionaire? that's the reality...Kids eyes are removed, hands cut off to beg in the streets of India.

Its unfair to us, If you think India is progressing with some made up Mars Mission.

The problem is NASA and CIA can make themselves looks stupid when they want to so that even Americans will believe their stories of regime change in the world. Make No mistake NASA, CIA is incredibly smart..All stuff of India's Mars mission was supplied by NASA itself.

The good guys were Silenced due to this huge hype of Mars mission as it happens in America often...Good guys have no where to go to voice their side of the story. They created such a big drama around Mars Mission that nobody bothered about the real scientists voice who were removed.

I know this because I'm from the Southern Part of India where this whole ISRO is located, I worked in Bangalore where real stories gets leaked out...which never makes it to main stream...Its like 911 and Moon mission of America..They muddy the water so much that its impossible to believe whats really going on.

-----------------

Nothing is happening in India...Its miserable here...Don't be fooled by NY times We know we don't but their out of America stories look believable when they make America look stupid compared to what country they want you to be brainwashed with

I'm not saying Indians are not capable of it...They are but NASA won't allow it...Its too much at stake going outer Space...Not only India, they won't allow any country to come up...When finally India's Mars mission lands on Mars...I can assure you...All you will see is red life less terrain with rocks supplied by NASA in their Photo Shop Labs NOT the secret mars bases they so want to protect

The real Mars Mission from real scientists in India was to find out the truth on Mars...Not the Photo Shopped Images from NASA...You can't fool Rocket Scientists ..can you ...

They have control all over the planet...NASA and CIA knew what Indians are doing thanks to their mole inside and they created a gigantic plan to remove all of them.

Yes. I know it sounds to much conspiratorial but is it easier to believe Main Stream Media like NY times ? Even many members here are having hard time believing it...rightly so...All I want is to put other side of the story and members here comparing it with their own life's and whats happening in America. What happens to good guys in America, if they seek out truth in big corporations and if you have time...visit India and I will show you around the ground realities but can't promise you Non-Diarrhea, Food Poisoning, Stomach Ache, All women & party trip

Post: #22

$671M was the cost for the NASA mission MAVEN. When the final tally is made, you will see it came in under budget and ahead of schedule.

The Indians are doing a great job with their space program, no doubt, and they are currently where NASA was 40 years ago. Catching up fast, though. Much respect for them. They get it:

http://www.airspacemag.com/space/the-rea...71/?no-ist

You can cancel every discretionary government program and give the money to the poor/sick people and build hospitals until you're blue in the face but you will not "solve" the issues of poverty/poor health. Better to invest in our future with technology. Look at your smartphones and thank the investments in the aerospace programs of the 60s and 70s that spurred miniaturization of electronics.

Post: #23

(07-02-2014 10:19 AM)starchild5 Wrote:  I'm from India. My first post..Hello Everybody

To control 1.2 billion humans, that's 17% world population or like the entire population of North America and Europe combined..We need more than HOPE to get going as a country.

What if few millions start thinking on their own? Its a gigantic PSY-OP sponsored by your truly CIA and NASA.

The real guys in ISRO were already fired who knew what was really going on thanks to our puppet prime minister.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/A...745659.ece

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/antri...72071.html

The former chairman of ISRO Madhavan Nair was the real deal, He was responsible for bringing up ISRO to what it is today, he along with many scientists were fired due to some made up scams...Many other scientist resigned along with him.

This mars mission is really a cover up to what really happened inside ISRO, they are projecting a successful mission as if to show nothing happened and its business as usual. Many know who were behind removal of the real scientists in India, thanks to CIA and our prime minster, they created a scam around the good guys and removed them...this is just a cover up...The best and the brightest in ISRO are already gone...

hmmmm...Where have we heard these kind of stories before...good'ol US of A ofcourse where lame stream media, political class combine with secret agencies to remove or terminate the good guys.

Its the same in India. Indian media is totally, completely sold out to the corporations and the west. NY times really? The No.1 Media sell out from America...Do we really think NY Times will print any truth or without a node from the CIA?

This Mars mission was sponsored by NASA from behind...They are just making up stories...ohh look...poor third world countries can create mars missions for 1/100 of the cost...look what USA and NASA couldn't do..Poor third world countries can...really?

They have already run this brainwashing propaganda in India to divert the attention of their secret mission....now its all fairy tale.

Have anyone been to India recently...How was the dating ..hehehe...As many have written here..India is the worst place to get laid, its polluted, dirty and below hell..The guys with best PUA games couldn't get hold of a single girl in India thats like 600 million girls....and thats how brainwashed we are..in all aspects of life...People are not allowed to think for themselves, be independent much like rest of Asia...we need to conform to certain social mind set engineered by Media and government.

This whole Mars mission is just that...A Media drama

Come I will show you real India..Its Below Hell...Have anyone seen Slum Dog Millionaire? that's the reality...Kids eyes are removed, hands cut off to beg in the streets of India.

Its unfair to us, If you think India is progressing with some made up Mars Mission.

The problem is NASA and CIA can make themselves looks stupid when they want to so that even Americans will believe their stories of regime change in the world. Make No mistake NASA, CIA is incredibly smart..All stuff of India's Mars mission was supplied by NASA itself.

The good guys were Silenced due to this huge hype of Mars mission as it happens in America often...Good guys have no where to go to voice their side of the story. They created such a big drama around Mars Mission that nobody bothered about the real scientists voice who were removed.

I know this because I'm from the Southern Part of India where this whole ISRO is located, I worked in Bangalore where real stories gets leaked out...which never makes it to main stream...Its like 911 and Moon mission of America..They muddy the water so much that its impossible to believe whats really going on.

-----------------

Nothing is happening in India...Its miserable here...Don't be fooled by NY times We know we don't but their out of America stories look believable when they make America look stupid compared to what country they want you to be brainwashed with

I'm not saying Indians are not capable of it...They are but NASA won't allow it...Its too much at stake going outer Space...Not only India, they won't allow any country to come up...When finally India's Mars mission lands on Mars...I can assure you...All you will see is red life less terrain with rocks supplied by NASA in their Photo Shop Labs NOT the secret mars bases they so want to protect

The real Mars Mission from real scientists in India was to find out the truth on Mars...Not the Photo Shopped Images from NASA...You can't fool Rocket Scientists ..can you ...

They have control all over the planet...NASA and CIA knew what Indians are doing thanks to their mole inside and they created a gigantic plan to remove all of them.

Yes. I know it sounds to much conspiratorial but is it easier to believe Main Stream Media like NY times ? Even many members here are having hard time believing it...rightly so...All I want is to put other side of the story and members here comparing it with their own life's and whats happening in America. What happens to good guys in America, if they seek out truth in big corporations and if you have time...visit India and I will show you around the ground realities but can't promise you Non-Diarrhea, Food Poisoning, Stomach Ache, All women & party trip

Are you for real?

Post: #24

So what is the secret mission for which this whole mission to Mars is a cover? You said India originally wanted to blow the cover on the Mars bases? It seems that, unlike the moon, we can see all of the surface of Mars from a telescope. Would not the bases be visible to amateur astronomers and anyone with a nice telescope in the back yard, who lives away from an urban center and light pollution?

Post: #25

(07-02-2014 12:54 PM)Moto Wrote:  ^^ So what is the secret mission for which this whole mission to Mars is a cover? You said India originally wanted to blow the cover on the Mars bases? It seems that, unlike the moon, we can see all of the surface of Mars from a telescope. Would not the bases be visible to amateur astronomers and anyone with a nice telescope in the back yard, who lives away from an urban center and light pollution?

You know that famous quote about arguing with certain people…

lol

This dude is IST (Indian Space Troll).