Post: #1

I'm having one of those days where I think back on my recent achievements and contemplate where I was a year ago, where I am now and how things have changed etc. You all know that that's like I assume.

When it comes to women I can't complain. A year ago I used to be in a long term relationship that made me miserable. I kept the relationship going because I was afraid I wouldn't be able to get anyone better than her. I knew about game back then, a practiced game, but I didn't have the right mindset. Anyway, I'll spare you the whole story of how I eventually dumped my girlfriend, worked on myself and my mindset and became more successful with women. I'm sure it's a story you've all heard one to many times and it's a story you've all experienced yourself in some way or form.

What I want to talk about it something I have noticed, or at least I think I have noticed. When I look back at all the women I've banged, they were all women who chose me. I banged them because they wanted me. I banged them because they decided it was going to happen. I banged them because I was their trophy. And I'm not just talking about the few women I've banged recently, but all women I've ever had sex with and/or had a relationship with.

Before you come with the whole "no shit, women are the gatekeepers to sex, we all know that" -speech, hear me out, because this is different.

Did you ever have this moment that you where either in a club or a public place or somewhere and you saw this chick and thought to yourself; "goddamn, this chick is awesome, I dig her, I want her in my bed and maybe even more than just that"? I'm sure we all have experienced that moment. And then you pursue her and you either end up fucking her or you get rejected.

I've pursued plenty of women in my life, and ALL, yes ALL of them rejected me. Whenever I pursue a women, I end up rejected, in the friendzone, or she just disappears completely. It ALLWAYS happens.

"But then how the hell can you claim you have had sex and relationships Mr. Calicoat? That doesn't make sense. You're probably just talking bullshit." I hear you saying.

No sir, I'm not talking bullshit. I indeed have had relationships and sex with various women. But as I said; they chose me before I chose them. These women I've had relationships and sex with, they already decided they wanted to date/have sex (with) me before I even was aware of their existence. These women actually approached me instead of me approaching them. And I was receptive and decided to play along with them, and either it ended up in just sex or I fell in love and then it ended with a relationship. Essentially you could say these women gamed me.

Jep, I feel that these women gamed me, not the other way around. And frankly when I came to this realization I got pissed off. Everytime I pursue a women she flakes. Every time I get laid it's because the women pursued me. What the fuck does this mean? What kind of reverse reality do I live in? I feel slightly angry now because I was under the illusion I was getting better with game and with women, but the sad reality is that I still get rejected 100% of the time whenever I am the one pursuing a chick, the only times I get laid is when the chick pursues me. And I do admit that the latter does happen more often these days, but still, it pisses me off. Why the fuck would I learn game if the only lays I get are from women who pursued me instead of the other way around?

Maybe I just need a good smack on the head from some veteran here to open my eyes and help me understand this shit, because I'm seriously at a loss right now.

So, any words of wisdom from the OGs here?

PS: I'm kinda depressed right now not just because of this but because I recently got my ass in the hospital on the intensive care because of alcohol and drug abuse. I fucked up majorly and I feel I'm all the way back to fucking zero.

Post: #2

I dont see how this is different to women are gatekeepers of sex. We men think with game we have the power to have sex with any girl, but in fact its simply with the girls who are sexually available (which happen to be quite a lot given how slutty they have become)

You are confused bc none of the women you chased received you, while all the women you had sex with were pursuing you. You can chalk it up to simply not being attractive enough/not enough game or you have a chase mentality that exudes a lot of neediness with the women you want to pursue. When you are in pursuer mode girls sense this a mile away and it makes the pussy dry.

If you are a slightly above average guys this is very common. YOu just need to play not fuck up game when a broad is opening her pussy to you, for reasons of her own choosing. The question would be, are the girls who chase you consistently more attractive than the ones you chase? If yes then yeah something s going on, but if not then its simply a case of a decent guy with passive game but weak/needy active game.

Post: #3

"Remember, do not pick up girls. Help them pick you up." - Juggler Method

I think you're onto some good insights here. "they chose me before I chose them." That's really your issue. I can relate as well.

(07-15-2014 07:56 AM)Mr. Calicoat Wrote:  Anyway, I'll spare you the whole story of how I eventually dumped my girlfriend, worked on myself and my mindset and became more successful with women.

What does "more successful with women" mean? 8 bangs with 4-7s? Or are you getting a sufficient # of girls you find attractive, say, 6-8s? It helps to have a better idea of exactly where you're coming from...I've been there and said to myself I'm more successful with women, which was true, but when you put #s down, can sometimes really put things in perspective.

This is the ugly side of growth. It's the struggle before you hit a breakthrough. I'd be interested in how others respond as well.

Post: #4

(07-15-2014 07:56 AM)Mr. Calicoat Wrote:  they chose me before I chose them. These women I've had relationships and sex with, they already decided they wanted to date/have sex (with) me before I even was aware of their existence.

What you have to understand is that a large part of game is screening for women who are into you. You will never be able to attract every woman, certainly not all the women you might want. It's always going to be a numbers game. Not every chick is available and not every chick will dig your vibe.

In fact, the ideal place to get to in a relationship is the dynamic where the girl is gaming/pursuing you, e.g. initiating text convos, inviting you over for meals, buying you gifts, &c, while you continue to act fairly aloof and send mixed messages. Though this will often only happen after you've fucked her.

That said, if you really have never executed a successful approach as you claim, your game probably needs work. Can you give more details about the kind of approaches you do and how they play out?

Post: #5

(07-15-2014 08:15 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  The question would be, are the girls who chase you consistently more attractive than the ones you chase?

Nope. I consistently chase 6s and 7s.

The women who pursued me and I ended up having sex with are from a slightly larger range, ranging from 5s all the way to 8s.

(07-15-2014 08:20 AM)heavy Wrote:  What does "more successful with women" mean? 8 bangs with 4-7s? Or are you getting a sufficient # of girls you find attractive, say, 6-8s? It helps to have a better idea of exactly where you're coming from...

I'm overall more successful really. Before I learned about game I had 3 long-term relationships and only 1 one night stand. After I learned about game and started improving myself (hitting the gym and learning to better understand the dynamics between men and women and how to avoid neediness) I managed to add 1 more long-term relationship 5 one night stands (all 6s or higher) and 1 fuck buddy to that list. I'm pulling numbers on a more regular basis lately, especially during the night when I go out clubbing I notice more attention from women.

Sounds not too bad for only 1 year of learning game right? But it does sound bad if you realize that none of these women are women I chased and successfully gamed, all of them are women who picked me, who chased me, who already had an interest in me before I even noticed them. In some cases I did notice them but didn't pursue then because I figured they would be out of my league (I know that mindset is dangerous, I need to work on that), but then they actually pursued me and I ended up having sex with them, but honestly, even after boning them I'd still say that some of them where out of my league and I'm still surprised they chose me for a ONS or for a date. Hell I dare say my last girlfriend (the one I scored after I learned about game) was way out of my league, at least looks-wise (in my books she was an 8, most of my friends thought she was a solid 7 or 7.5), yet I managed to keep her for almost a year. Right now I have this French chick pursuing me who is an ex-gymnast and model with a fucking tight body, her six-pack is actually more prominent than mine, hahahaha. On one side I think it's amazing and on the other hand I'm confused as fuck why she would ever pursue me and why other slightly-above-average chicks give me the cold shoulder when I try to pursue them.

(07-15-2014 09:59 AM)Donkey_Riding Wrote:  Can you give more details about the kind of approaches you do and how they play out?

Yes sir I can.

I usually do approaches during clubbing or at parties that my friends and I throw.

During clubbing I usually don't get much more than a kiss and a number. When I try to pursue these chicks by calling them a week later they usually bail/flake. Sometimes I manage to set up a date, that either ends in a flake or I get rejected at the end of the date when I try to go for a kiss close. Sometimes I do get the kiss close but then get rejected by a text later with shit like "sorry about that kiss, I don't think I'm quite ready to be seeing another guy already, I recently broke up with my boyfriend you know, it's not you, it's me, blablablablabla" you know the drill.

At the parties I had more success and actually managed to get some bangs from that. But all these bangs are with chicks who pursued me before I pursued them.

Lets see if I can break down my run of the mill game plan that I usually use in a short and comprehensible way (this post is already way too long):

1. I screen the women in the club or at the party. I try to see if I can already spot some interest/attraction from women by simply looking at them and seeing their reaction when they look back. If I see her smiling and quickly looking away I know this is a chick I need to approach this night. If I get eye contact with a chick like that, I go straight to number 3, otherwise I go to number 2.

2. If I don't find any attractive chicks that might be into me I try to find a an attractive chick that is being too occupied to notice me for example a chick who is being bothered by her chatty best friend or beta orbiter and is waiting for a guy like me to relieve her of this boring bitch/Beta. I then go to number 3.

3. I approach the chick. If she's alone I just open her with whatever comes up in my mind (I try not to overthink my openers and I just say whatever comes up in me at that time). I exchange a few words and try to feel her vipes. I then move on to point 4.
If she's with a friend/Beta orbiter, I first introduce myself to the friend/Beta and exchange a few words with him/her, then I introduce myself to the cute chick. I exchange a few words and then move to point 4.

4. I tell her chick it was nice meeting her or talking to her, but that someone is waiting for me or someone wants to talk to me. I then move on. I usually try to do this at the point where the conversation is the most interesting or most exciting. If I feel this chick is into me I usually try to cut the convo short and move on quickly so I leave a short, strong but positive mark on her. I then move on to 5.

5. I go through the whole process of 1 to 4 with several chicks during the night. Then I revisit all the chicks I felt positive energy with to have another talk with them. During the 2nd talk I either go directly for the number close or the kiss close, or both. If I manage to get a kiss close I sometimes try to push my luck and see if I can get them to come home with me to my place. If I only get a number close I usually leave it at that, sometimes I come back a 3rd time and see if I can get a kiss close then. If not I usually just leave it at that and then call or text her a week later. If I do get a kiss but not a bang I usually call her the same week to set up a date.

Post: #6

Good info. (note my #s don't correspond to yours above)

1. You're here because of not getting the girls you want...weak inner game dude. I'm not hating, we've all been there, and it's understandable, but this attitude probably gives you a vibe girls, or specifically, girls you want, are picking up on. The chics you want are sensing disingenuousness.

2. Your overall 5 points all seem really externally focused...almost entirely logistical.

3. Are you teasing? I don't mean teasing to pickup the girl, just teasing to have fun. Not to get a rise, just to flirt. You've made no mention of it. I'm wondering if a lack of teasing is a result of #1. When girls approach you you're comfortable and flirty, when you approach them you're less comfortable and more performance based.

4. Build rapport. Problem is, if you aren't comfortable (and thus teasing and playful) and haven't built attraction, rapport can't happen. You being comfortable -> you tease -> her sensing you're comfortable with yourself -> attraction -> rapport. I'm not sure rapport follows attraction as much as it is part of attraction.

5. Ever try going direct. I don't mean needy direct, I mean walking over confidently, telling her she has a lovely smile, then telling a quick anecdote. I mostly suggest this because it sounds like you need to show some vulnerability, not in a needy way but in an honest way. It'll be difficult, but really fucking relieving and might lift a weight off your shoulders for future chics.

Post: #7

Thanks for the reply and advice Heavy.

To reply to all your points:

1. Yeah my inner game needs work and for that I need to get some other shit fixed first.

2. It might seem that way in my post but in reality I'm not doing it so calculative and systematically. I honestly just try to go with the flow. I have to admit I'm better at going with the flow at parties than I am at clubs, hence I have had more success at parties than at clubs. But I do think there is a core of truth here. Maybe I am too externally focused.

3. Oh yeah I definitely tease. I dare say humor is one of my strongest weapons in my arsenal. I can make chicks laugh. Though sometimes this actually works against me. I noticed that my humor can actually sometimes throw me into the "friendzone" if you know what I mean. A chick will see me as a fun and games, but not as a potential partner. I sometimes feel like a clown honestly. If I feel I'm going too much towards the "clownzone" (just made that term up) I try to either move the convo into a more flirty/intimate direction or I leave the stage and go to another chick, then return to this chick later. When I try to get things more flirty/intimate I usually give her backhanded compliments and try to get physical with her, first by gently touching her waist and hips when I close in to say something to her (you know, because of the loud music you need to actually shout in each others ears to make yourself understandable, which I try to use in my favor in this case cause it makes it easier and less awkward to get touchy). If she seems to be fine with that I make my touching more obvious. If she's fine with that I actually stroke her a bit and try to pull her in to make our bodies touch, etc, I usually don't think too much about it and just go with the flow. I just try to escalate bit by bit and try to see how much I can get away with.

4. This is very true. I've noticed that not too long ago. I was chatting with this really cute chick at a party, then she all of the sudden gave me the cold shoulder and left me. Only then did I realize I fucked up because I wasn't really on my game and simply having a friendly chat with her about common interests the way I would chat with dudes. Big mistake of course. But I think the main reason why I fucked up here was not that I wasn't uncomfortable, but because I was too comfortable and for a moment totally forgot about the game, if that makes any sense. Or maybe in reality I just didn't feel comfortable enough to actually get flirty with her. Who knows? I can't really remember myself to be honest.

5. Yeah I sometimes do that and it either extremely works into my favor and makes me get her number and/or kiss in a matter of minutes, or it works against me and the chick thinks I'm weird and then starts to ignore me.

Post: #8

(07-15-2014 11:13 AM)Mr. Calicoat Wrote:  ... Then I revisit all the chicks I felt positive energy with to have another talk with them. During the 2nd talk I either go directly for the number close or the kiss close, or both. If I manage to get a kiss close I sometimes try to push my luck and see if I can get them to come home with me to my place. If I only get a number close I usually leave it at that, sometimes I come back a 3rd time and see if I can get a kiss close then. If not I usually just leave it at that and then call or text her a week later. If I do get a kiss but not a bang I usually call her the same week to set up a date.

Why do you try to 'close' as soon as you come back to them?
When you talk again to the girls you clicked with it's time to pick one of them and spend time with her so that you can leave with her at the end of the party. When nothing can happen that night at least she's now much more familiar with you so day2 is more probable. Ideally you should ask where they stay at and what their plans are that night by the time you reapproach them.

Why do you contact with them ONE WEEK LATER after the party??!!! Unless you can make really memorable impression that night and have some sort of connection you're ghost to them after a week. No wonder they flake like crazy.

Why are you so eager to kiss them then and there? What's the point?

Post: #9

(07-15-2014 01:12 PM)XXL Wrote:  Why do you try to 'close' as soon as you come back to them?

I don't. All I said is that by the time the 2nd convo comes to and end, I want it to end either with a number or a kiss. Preferably both.

(07-15-2014 01:12 PM)XXL Wrote:  Why do you contact with them ONE WEEK LATER after the party??!!!

Because I don't want to appear needy. I don't want to be like those other guys who immediately start texting them like crazy the same night or the day after.

(07-15-2014 01:12 PM)XXL Wrote:  Unless you can make really memorable impression that night and have some sort of connection you're ghost to them after a week. No wonder they flake like crazy.

Maybe. But I've had some success this way. Nothing to write home about though.

(07-15-2014 01:12 PM)XXL Wrote:  Why are you so eager to kiss them then and there? What's the point?

What's the point of anything? I like kissing. It's also another way to screen a girl. If the kissing isn't nice or even awkward then I already know there isn't much chemistry between us. If the kiss is awesome then I know there is a lot of potential. I don't try to force a kiss when it doesn't feel right though. I only try to go for it when I think the moment is right and when I think the chick will be receptive to it.

Post: #10

That must be awful.

Being unable to connect with someone of your choosing.

Sounds so passive.

I'll pray for you.

WIA

Post: #11

(07-15-2014 07:56 AM)Mr. Calicoat Wrote:  PS: I'm kinda depressed right now not just because of this but because I recently got my ass in the hospital on the intensive care because of alcohol and drug abuse. I fucked up majorly and I feel I'm all the way back to fucking zero.

Your pondering on women means nothing. You are alive. You are getting help for your alcohol/drug abuse. You must have this be your focus. If you're at this point it means it's 100% the biggest thing you need to work on and focus on.

The bright side? You have nowhere to go but up. It sounds like you had a decent head on your shoulders and have other things going for you, focus on what you need to improve/change in your life and even the small steps will start to bring you some relief/positivity.

Good luck.

Post: #12

(07-16-2014 02:39 AM)AneroidOcean Wrote:  

(07-15-2014 07:56 AM)Mr. Calicoat Wrote:  PS: I'm kinda depressed right now not just because of this but because I recently got my ass in the hospital on the intensive care because of alcohol and drug abuse. I fucked up majorly and I feel I'm all the way back to fucking zero.

Your pondering on women means nothing. You are alive. You are getting help for your alcohol/drug abuse. You must have this be your focus. If you're at this point it means it's 100% the biggest thing you need to work on and focus on.

The bright side? You have nowhere to go but up. It sounds like you had a decent head on your shoulders and have other things going for you, focus on what you need to improve/change in your life and even the small steps will start to bring you some relief/positivity.

Good luck.

Meh that shit is the past. I fucked up but I have no intention to do so again. But me overdosing on drugs + alcohol and all that crap those doctors pumped inside me to patch me up at the hospital did screw me up both physically and mentally. I'm still recovering from that but I'm doing fine honestly. I already feel way better today than I did yesterday when I wrote the OP.

But thanks for the pep talk, I appreciate it, seriously.

Post: #13

[oops double post]

Post: #14

(07-15-2014 09:46 PM)Mr. Calicoat Wrote:  

(07-15-2014 01:12 PM)XXL Wrote:  Why do you contact with them ONE WEEK LATER after the party??!!!

Because I don't want to appear needy. I don't want to be like those other guys who immediately start texting them like crazy the same night or the day after.

(07-15-2014 01:12 PM)XXL Wrote:  Unless you can make really memorable impression that night and have some sort of connection you're ghost to them after a week. No wonder they flake like crazy.

Maybe. But I've had some success this way. Nothing to write home about though.

So, you complain that your approaches don't work, then defend your methods by saying that they do work. Makes sense.

Waiting a week is probably too long. Girls have such busy social lives that you can't really expect them to remember you if you wait a week. You can just text after 1-3 days. If she digs your vibe, she wants to hear from you anyway--you just need to wait a little bit to get her wondering.

Possible things you can try for approaches (experiment, see what works):
1) Work on more direct, physical dancefloor game in clubs.
2) Do more direct openers during night game. E.g., try the apocalypse opener: http://www.bristollair.com/2008/outer-ga...se-opener/
3) Work on day game approaches.

(07-15-2014 11:13 AM)Mr. Calicoat Wrote:  During clubbing I usually don't get much more than a kiss and a number.

Have you tried isolating her by moving to a different part of the club and/or bouncing to a different venue?

(07-15-2014 11:13 AM)Mr. Calicoat Wrote:  Sometimes I manage to set up a date, that either ends in a flake or I get rejected at the end of the date when I try to go for a kiss close. Sometimes I do get the kiss close but then get rejected by a text later with shit like "sorry about that kiss, I don't think I'm quite ready to be seeing another guy already, I recently broke up with my boyfriend you know, it's not you, it's me, blablablablabla" you know the drill.

Your date game probably needs work. Can you write more about what you do on dates? In general it's probably better to go for the kiss before the end of the date.

Post: #15

If two people like each other, there's zero need to wait to text, IME. Maybe if you're texting the next day, make it in the late afternoon, but a week is quite long. Even texting later that night can work in some situations.

Post: #16

"I've pursued plenty of women in my life, and ALL, yes ALL of them rejected me. Whenever I pursue a women, I end up rejected, in the friendzone, or she just disappears completely. It ALLWAYS happens."

Then your game sucks. That is my final verdict.

Post: #17

If it makes you feel any better I only have recently discovered 'game'. In my life of 20 years of dating I just scored with women through luck, parties, situations or online dating. I had no plan, no method, beyond a few jokes and chit chat. I just chatted shit and was myself which either worked or didn't but most of the time did work.

And I can see what you are saying, if a girl wants you it is quite within their power to get you herself. I still don't have an game plan. Sure I could read up on all of this and try it out in the field, but that might take me out of my comfort zone. What works for me works but there is nothing wrong with self improvement so I probably will try taking tips from experts.

Post: #18

(01-03-2015 02:44 PM)fmman Wrote:  If it makes you feel any better I only have recently discovered 'game'. In my life of 20 years of dating I just scored with women through luck, parties, situations or online dating. I had no plan, no method, beyond a few jokes and chit chat. I just chatted shit and was myself which either worked or didn't but most of the time did work.

And I can see what you are saying, if a girl wants you it is quite within their power to get you herself. I still don't have an game plan. Sure I could read up on all of this and try it out in the field, but that might take me out of my comfort zone. What works for me works but there is nothing wrong with self improvement so I probably will try taking tips from experts.

Yes. Get out of your comfort zone unless your comfortable getting no cooch. Growth is necessary for confidence. And to the OP you must have some good qualities if you're getting chose by decent talent. There's nothing wrong with approaching girls who show you interest if they're your type. Maybe your getting rejected by 10's and in that case start going for the 9's or 8's

Post: #19

Alright I see your issue you're too passive and too damned obvious and it makes sense why your approach works more at parties than at a club or somewhere where you aren't well known.

1. Going around approaching shit tons of people back to back is going to draw attention and at a club not only are you obvious but no way in hell will you know that many people but...

2. This works at a party if your social circle game is implied from all these people you are talking too. One of the few forum members I've went out and gamed with has told me at a college party that I'm a social hype man in those situations and that won't work as well clubbing and I see the proof right there in you. The only other place I see it working is at Raves because everyone is drugged through the roof and a social circle can be implied as raves are group of friends kind of events usually.

3. Please don't tell me you call girls. That's antiquated and shows thirst in this day and age. Even the g-manifesto used text with the majority of girls.

4. You are letting these girls walk over you 99% of the time. Not to be insulting but you reek of socially awkward beta. That's the reason you only have success with women chasing you. Your writing style should improve with a sense of humor. I would recommend working on your sense of wit. Quality "negs" and jokes come usually with wit. Learn to use your surroundings, her appearance, or casual insights for fuel.

5. Partially related to number 4, but if you are talking to a chick and gaming her always remember think of your words like this: "What kind of girl would say these words to me or start a conversation that way with me? A fatty or that cynical hot chick at the bar/chill party girl?". If what you think is fatty then you are doing it wrong.

6. Don't give into the RSD mentality of hype attitude and overly confident facade. Be cold be calculated. If you are going to be confident bring that cocky attitude or chill vibe along to balance it out. Don't go circling parties and work one chick at a time. Don't be loud and obvious in terms of game or in terms of clothing. Make sure that what you are wearing won't stand out until she's staring directly at you and can't look away because of how well dressed you are. In the same vein blending into the crowd with the girl you are working on while making her out to be heavily interested and laughing in the other girl'a eyes when they do notice is another key tool.

7. Try day gaming/talking to strangers while going about your day(don't blatantly go out looking for girls). This will definitely pave the way for some good conversational skills as you are out meeting new people.

Post: #20

I'm kind of in the same place. I can't think of many times where I said "that's the one I want" and then got her. But my standards are astronomical and I sniper approach instead of shotgun, so I really can't complain. I'm limiting myself.

The girls I get are the ones where I run don't fuck it up game. I don't think any other game has worked for me. Sometimes it's clear it's not going anywhere, other times it seems like if I push enough and game hard enough, I can turn a maybe girl into a yes - but then I have a moment of clarity and I look at all the work I'm putting in for one girl and I start to feel like a circus monkey trying to entertain her and win her approval so I just drop it and move on. Very few girls are worth it to me.

My hope is to continue improving everything I can. Logisitics, finances, appearance, personality. Everything. The more value you have, the better your odds are of getting the girl you actually want.