Post: #1

Watching my office implode –

My employer appears to be on the verge of large scale downsizing – i.e. everyone. This is the first time in my life I have a front row seat to a crack-up like this. My neck is also on the chopping block. I have determined the following formula as hazardous to the health of any mid-size law firm:

1. One owner controlling 98% of the voting stock of the
company;

2. That one owner being married to something out of the Real
Housewives of Orange County;

3. That one owner weighing 280 pounds and thinking the 23
year old Brazilian bartender you hired to do bookkeeping is
really interested in your sparkling 47 year old personality
and (supposedly) King sized wang;

4. That one owner hitting the local bars 4 nights a week with 2
young kids at home;

5. That one owner hiring a 1% partner with permanent mental
damage from having been raised by a neurotic Jewish
mother – who now everyone hates.

6. That one owner hiring a different 1% partner who married a
high power corporate officer and who then got caught
schtupping the other South American secretary in the place –
for a 2 year period – also with two young kids at home;

7. Not reviewing the billing;

8. Not giving a shit.

It might be time to leave the law – Gerald Celente has been saying for some time that anything involving clean food, not just healthy food, can’t loose. I worked for several summers on one of the last farms by NYC - I worked in the grill room of a high end country club, and I am quite a small scale farmer myself and have cooked just about everything – I know how to run farm stands, deal with all solid foods, apple cider, etc. My wife worked for a few years in retail.
Anyone have an idea? – I think anything now that deals in cash will be King – simply because no one will be able to afford the payroll and healthcare taxes on everything?

A lot of guys on here seem to be real operators –

Should I hold on at my current job for as long as I can?
Should I just say fuck it and open something , anything , as fast as possible?
Has anyone ever drafted a business plan? Is it worth it.?

My conundrum here is again, having been a cubicle monkey for 11 straight years – It’s hard to think outside the box.

I’ll post some cooking and wine advice to the other thread as a quid pro quo. I would love some input from folks here.

Post: #2

Hold the cubicle gig until you have something else lined up. Best thing that can happen is you get laid off and collect 1 or 2 years of unemployment while you figure stuff out

Post: #3

Jim Kirk,

"That one owner being married to something out of the Real Housewives of Orange County"

Interesting that you said that. I have a theory going on that makes me not want to ever really do biz with married people; they will screw you over rather than answer to their wife.

In regards to your question, I think it really depends on what kind of funds you have. If you have a decent war chest, then make the move. You can't beat the freedom of doing your own thing.

I agree with Celente, ag is a good move.

Question for you: Does it seem like Law is continuing to take a hit? Or is your situation isolated from the above reasons?

Post: #4

I agree with Brian. But, I have a different take:


Step 1. Slack off at work. Get purposely laid off. Collect unemployment.

Law is a dying field, because the United States is a dying country. Do you really want to rise and fall with this nation state? As a lawyer, your fate is determined by the health of the country. Do you feel like our country is healthy?

I'll never forget a conversation I had with one of the top criminal defense attorney's in my state:

Him: Why do you want to go to law school?

Me: To make money.

Him: There is no money in law.

This is a guy who had presented cases in front of the Supreme Court of NH.

Step 2. Live life to make you happy. Grow food, do whatever.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/better-...-thinks-so

Farming looks as good an investment as any. There is a serious shortage of farmers combined with awful inflation, resulting in a rush for real goods.




I actually went to law school, saw the scam for what it was, and left the legal world forever. It was very difficult for me to do this, and I was just a 1L. I can only imagine how hard it is for you to do this, having invested 11 years into this office, another 20 into the education system, etc. etc.

But, if there's any consolation to be found, hear my story: I had zero back-up plans when I told the dean I wanted out. The only thing I could possibly do was pursue a bullshit masters degree.

I left school, lived at my parents house, had to suffer a long dry spell in near absolute poverty, with no job related skills to support me in the worst fucking job market this country has ever seen.

Yet, as I write, I am now typing from my very own little bachelor pad supported by a modest job I managed to pick up at bar. I am indescribably happier than I was in the vapid legal world.

Post: #5

(03-06-2011 11:06 PM)Jim Kirk Wrote:  My neck is also on the chopping block.

Your posts should be required reading for all forum members contemplating law school. Law jobs are declining, partly for technological reasons.

Armies of Expensive Lawyers, Replaced by Cheaper Software

Quote:A lot of guys on here seem to be real operators

In other words they have no experience in professional jobs. I sympathize that your office sucks and you are venting on the internet. But GMAFB. You mentioned petty personality conflicts, but nothing really bad about the job - no long hours, crummy travel, etc. You just know it will end.

So deal with it and polish your resume. You alternative "plan" is to become a farmer, a grill cook, a produce clerk, or have your wife become a retail sales clerk. You ask if you should "open something, anything" or "draft a business plan". WTF, this is the vaguest thing I have ever read. You need to apply for other legal jobs or search "life after law" to develop a credible alternative. Good luck, and let us know what you learn about post-law careers.

Post: #6

the legal world is changing because companies no longer have the available funds to just piss away $300/hr on pointless associate billable hours that big firms charge. margin compression is a bitch. outsourcing to other countries will become more and more common. top dog lawyers will still command huge fees but its the middle and lower end attorneys who will get squeezed. law school has always seemed high risk, high reward. if you come out and get in at a top law firm and are starting at 150k plus you are in very good shape. but only the top of the class pulls that off and if you dont you have a massive debt and aren't making any more then the average white collar person.

Post: #7

I'm finishing law school and work in what I guess would be considered BigLaw. The legal market is absolutely terrible. People are having a hell of a time finding jobs, most don't have anything as they're graduating.

It just sounds like you're in a bad law firm with bad people. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Presumably you have some expertise in your practice area, so you should try and leverage it to lateral into another firm. Do not quit and try and find a job, people want to hire those who are working.

The key to being able survive the bad times is to be indispensable. That means you have to be specialized, and have knowledge that is not readily available. You need to focus on what you think your niche is (hopefully you have one).

Post: #8

Story on renewed interest in farming among young people:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/06/us/06farmers.html

NY Times is known for putting out bogus trend pieces so I'd take it with a grain of salt.

Post: #9

(03-07-2011 09:14 AM)kimleebj Wrote:  Your posts should be required reading for all forum members contemplating law school. Law jobs are declining, partly for technological reasons.

Armies of Expensive Lawyers, Replaced by Cheaper Software

There are a few things going on in the world right now:
1) Population is rising
2) Technology is making people less necessary for tasks

So as population is rising, and people are becoming less necessary for production, what is the next step for societies? We are becoming more efficient, but also less necessary.

This question is particularly pointed at the free-market evangelists on this forum. What is your idea of the future, taking into consideration the changes that are happening?

Post: #10

(03-06-2011 11:06 PM)Jim Kirk Wrote:  Should I hold on at my current job for as long as I can?

Start stealing clients (if you´re not his friend).

(03-06-2011 11:06 PM)Jim Kirk Wrote:  Should I just say fuck it and open something , anything , as fast as possible?
No. Start stealing clients and open your own law firm.

[quote='Jim Kirk' pid='45870' dateline='1299470781']
Has anyone ever drafted a business plan? Is it worth it.?

Once. I wanted to open a bar with my brother. The costs are really high. Take a good look at it.

(03-06-2011 11:06 PM)Jim Kirk Wrote:  My conundrum here is again, having been a cubicle monkey for 11 straight years – It’s hard to think outside the box.

Again if the owner of the company is being incompetent clients will be happy to have a good lawyer, such as you.

(03-06-2011 11:06 PM)Jim Kirk Wrote:  I’ll post some cooking and wine advice to the other thread as a quid pro quo. I would love some input from folks here.

Do you like being a lawyer?
Yes. Continue to be one.

No. From what I hear farming is a good option. Quality of life and rise of prices of goods. If you can handle the loss of adrenaline coming from deadlines, etc.

I keep hearing on this forum that law market is hard, etc, etc. That´s fucking obvious and not new. The ability to bring new clients is crucial for any lawyer. The thing is people think that lawyers sell a special item. No we don´t. We are sellers. We sell potatos, tomatos, etc. We just charge more for it, because it´s more specialized.

I´ve opened a law firm with a college friend. I charge cheap, around half a medium lawyer would charge and give comissions (10-30%) to anyone who brings me clients (this is not allowed by portuguese bar but I say fuck´em).
Of course I get payed but it feels good to sometimes help people.
My goal is to have international clients. They pay more and it´s refreshing to hear different languages.

Post: #11

I just spoke with a partner about doing some doc review for an upcoming litigation. It's still being done the old fashioned way, and unless the client really pushes for automated discovery, it will continue to be done in this way. Doc review also depends on the nature of the document production. There will be less documents if the client or opposition has already pre-screened based on key words and relevance as opposed to a complete document dump.

Post: #12

For anyone assuming that Jim doesn't know the law market, look up some of his older posts. He's a vet. His wanting out certainly doesn't come from a place of not knowing his options within the law. And my attorney friends all tell the same stories about super-toxic environments. Its not like his situation is uncommon, save for the minutia. Jim doesn't have to elaborate, as what he said leaves only one choice: He's got to go. Either by his own volition or the employers.

I'm far from an operator, but I cam empathize with your situation. Also, G is right. A guy will screw over his partners/employees to appease a wife. I lost a best friend and a business that way. I'm now considering a business with another married friend. Luckily, she's one of the coolest women I've ever met. But I'm still taking a serious personal and professional risk with her as the third person in the equation.

Jim, your thoughts are the manic beginning stage of wtf do I do? Everyone would go through that. I don't know what you make now, but your farming idea would cause you to take a huge risk and a huge hit in income. And the odds would be stacked against you. What would you sell? Whats the ROI per food item sold? That sounds like a ten dollar an hour job to me.

If you really just want to throw yourself into a different lifestyle, and have some money to invest and want to work your tail off, i don't think that anything beats a well placed pizza restaurant for a relatively low risk/high income business. Out of any type of food service business, this has to be one of the highest probabilities for success. I know this from knowing a pizza shop owner or two.

One figure I heard from a guy who had a new place on a busy, but not trendy, street in center city Philadelphia, was that after 2-3 years he was pulling in around $8k per week take-home. The other guy I know is even more centrally located, but has a small shop. He paid for his 2 daughter's college educations in cash (one is a pharmacist) and owns his home outright.

As the menu price's goes up (and the ROI goes down), with fancier menus, I think that it becomes harder to succeed. Its easier to become successful with small ticket items at high volume than it is with expensive ticket items at low volume. Just remember that location is everything, because that is what will bring the volume. Resist the urge to do something fancier with a broad menu. Just keep it simple with an average pizza place menu, but with good quality food. I think that the ROI on pizza is something in the area of 10:1. You will be dealing in cash. And avoid partners at all costs. The only issue being that you WILL be at the shop all the time, if for nothing else but to keep tabs on your cash.

The other high volume food service business that looks like it rakes in a ton of cash is something along the lines of a 5 Guys Burger restaurant. High volume cheeseburgers, with not much else on offer. That looks like a profitable formula to me. If it were me, I might even just copy the business model and avoid the franchise cost. It would be easy enough to do. They only sell burgers, fries, and dogs.

Whatever you do, remember not to reflexively do something because its the polar opposite of your law job. Everything becomes a job/chore after a brief period of romance. Look at it as a cash stream, and stay objective.

But really, your legal skills have to be worth something on the market. Undoubtedly, the law is your lowest risk option.

Post: #13

Jim,

Philadelphia has a growing movement in urban farming to revitalize their economy. There are government grants available. I met a Temple kid at the SBA who got a grant for his urban farm around this time last year.
Philly Urban Farm Article
Walnut Farm Grant Article
Philly Homegrown

Post: #14

Its funny that you mention that. Living in Philly and having once socialized in certain circles, I came to work on an urban farm in my early twenties. One of the very first in the city. There really is no money in it, and all work is mostly volunteer. And its seasonal. But its good for stress relief and for trying to 'revitalize' certain neighborhoods (although I'm not sure how much good it actually does). If you want to pickup urban hippy girls, then urban farming is your activity.

Post: #15

(03-07-2011 02:59 AM)Samseau Wrote:  Farming looks as good an investment as any.

(03-07-2011 03:16 PM)Pepini Wrote:  From what I hear farming is a good option.

WTF? Let's hear from actual farmers. The job is stereotypically long, hard, and dangerous, and the social life sucks. Agricultural employment started to decline one hundred years ago and law is declining now. In both cases this is a good consequence of improved efficiency. There are lots of other productive things for people to do.

Post: #16

(03-07-2011 06:00 PM)kimleebj Wrote:  

(03-07-2011 02:59 AM)Samseau Wrote:  Farming looks as good an investment as any.

(03-07-2011 03:16 PM)Pepini Wrote:  From what I hear farming is a good option.

WTF? Let's hear from actual farmers. The job is stereotypically long, hard, and dangerous, and the social life sucks. Agricultural employment started to decline one hundred years ago and law is declining now. In both cases this is a good consequence of improved efficiency. There are lots of other productive things for people to do.

Besides the fact that the basic foodstuff items are rising due to rising demand and inflationary pressures?

http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?c...&months=12

http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/CN/M


And the other zerohedge link I posted, that Jim Rogers, one of the world's premier investors, who turned $800 into Billions also endorses farming?

Here's another link you: http://www.zerohedge.com/article/jim-rog...asdaq-etfs

Post: #17

(03-07-2011 06:00 PM)kimleebj Wrote:  

(03-07-2011 02:59 AM)Samseau Wrote:  Farming looks as good an investment as any.

(03-07-2011 03:16 PM)Pepini Wrote:  From what I hear farming is a good option.

WTF? Let's hear from actual farmers. The job is stereotypically long, hard, and dangerous, and the social life sucks. Agricultural employment started to decline one hundred years ago and law is declining now. In both cases this is a good consequence of improved efficiency. There are lots of other productive things for people to do.

I lived on a dairy farm growing up in Canada. My Dad just sold it a couple years ago. I know there are some pretty fundamental ways farming differs in the US and Canada (most notably the quota system in Canada) but in a lot of ways I would imagine they are both facing the same problems. Starting a farm would be almost impossible for someone that wasn't born into it especially in the US where small farms aren't protected under the Quota concept. Its almost always a family run business built on multiple generations of back breaking, never retiring labour. You will never be able to compete with the bigger farms that actually make real money in agriculture. These are multi-million dollar operations with 24 hour workers and full time vets. There are farms in the states that have over 10,000 cows. Even if you are only talking about cash crop farming your start up cost is still insane! Do you know how much a tractor or combine cost?! Unless you have a ridiculous amount of money to invest in it properly from the beginning you will be wasting your time. After my Dad sold the farm he started working at a local farm dealer selling tractors to retired doctors playing "wannabe farmers." They still don't realize its just a sink hole for money and seriously doubts they even come close to breaking even. Smartest decision I ever made was deciding not to continue with my family business. Don't get me wrong I enjoyed growing up on a farm as a kid and I think its affected me positively in terms of how I interact with other people and a lot of the things I appreciate in life. It was nice to have my Dad around when I was younger for sports and things like that but he never took a day off for over 23 years. I don't mean to deter you from deciding to pursue this if you really have a passion for it, but you have to really sit down and think this through carefully and know the risks involved.

Post: #18

I just found this http://www.wwoof.org
It's like couchsurfing for farmers.

Post: #19

Guys - I have been looking for an hour or two to type some thoughtful responses as good as I got here - I've just been all over the place. I will try to get to it this week. One other note - we got notice yesterday that they are calling everyone down to HQ from two states for a 4:30 p.m. meeting with no other explanation. Looks like its axe time - either that or we are merging with someone else and they cutting the staff. We shall see.

Post: #20

Good Luck Jim

Post: #21

Good luck Jim, I always enjoy your posts and insights into the law field, which I alomst got into but I'm delighted I opted not at the end and instead focused on my online business and couldn't be happier now.

Post: #22

(03-06-2011 11:50 PM)Brian Wrote:  Hold the cubicle gig until you have something else lined up. Best thing that can happen is you get laid off and collect 1 or 2 years of unemployment while you figure stuff out

This isn't really an option for high earners like Jim, in NYS the maximum you can get paid in unemployment benefits is like $400 bucks a week.

I don't anybody who runs a farm but I know quite a few small business owners. Its hard back breaking labor, no wonder why most people who take a crack at entrepreneurship are recent immigrants.

Post: #23

Well, the meeting is over and here is what happened. Just pathetic, as so many other things.
They sent a memo out this past Monday announcing a 4:30 pm meeting for this past Friday. This is an old psche trick in that everyone was worried about it all week. What they ended up doing was firing their senior trial guy (who was fairly high paid) and letting a woman go that has been with the company for 10 years (longer than me and everyone else), really since the beginning. The guy walked out with his head high – the woman, who has an adopted 3 year old kid and a 9 month old at home, literally fled the office. This was not your American ho – this was a nice married Connecticut matron. They did the firings (for economic reasons) at 1:30 and 3:30 and then called everyone in at 4:30 and gave us the old song and tap dance (the trial guy got 2 weeks severance pay btw)

“this is the perfect number of people” “we will be more like a family” “everyone will be under the same roof – it will allow us to be more efficient” - the 98% owner gave the speech, the other two ‘owners’ sat there with their dicks in their hand. I have run my own ‘numbers’ on the viability of the company and can say that every single thing that came out of his mouth is bullshit. “I make this promise that all of your jobs are secure through next year at least” - what a joke. The guy that was let go – they were telling him and assigning him cases that were going out next month up until the very end.

The funny thing – is that I have been coming in very late, disappearing for 2 hours at lunch, etc. Nothing happened. The order of who is going to be canned is set and it will not be based on anything other than $$$ signs. I will now handle the senior guy’s trial load at a mid-level associates pay.

On the unemployment question – I checked out what ‘Playa’ said – the maximum monthly benefit in New York State is $1600. That does not pay the food and infant formula bills for a family of 5. Basing my decisions on getting unemployment – that total sum is better than nothing but not a drop in the bucket in New York.

@ GManifesto – you would be proud of me – this past St. Patrick’s day, a friend of mine snapped a picture of me with a pint in hand wearing a good Boss suit outside a high end lounge in New York. He does not read your blog but commented while showing me the picture later that I looked like a 1930’s era Chicago gangster.

As far as the wife question – in my particular case the owner’s wife got involved in the firm at one point and it went over like a lead balloon. Her cost saving ‘solutions’ were to order cheaper copy paper (which f’ed up the machine) and try to take away employee parking passes and toll plaza passes. She left after about 6 months but that was after the firm was disrupted. It was also difficult for the Brazilian ‘secretary’ to wear her usual paper thin white cloth ‘bunda’ jeans with the wife around. This is of course, why you should not fuck (or try to fuck) your bartender, then hire her as a paralegal, and then bring your wife into the firm – and expect things to run normally. It’s also difficult to hide automobile lease payments on the firm credit card. (The B girl got the use of a car after she wrecked her own in a DUI). I think that Brazilian went out and bought a long skirt for days that the wife would be there. Come to think of it – I think I got the paperwork from the DMV to apply to have her drivers’ license reinstated after the 6 month suspension for her third DUI in 18 months.

I don’t blame you for being suspicious of deals you are working with married guys that run the deals past their wives – or if they give their wives de facto ‘veto’ power over the deal. What I think you are actually up against – in your real life if you are in import/export guy – your married clients/sellers/buyers etc. with a typical fat and ignorant BUT WEALTHY wife at home will always have the following conversation -

Fat wife: So you met this guy Mason who wants to buy 1000 widgets?

Beta: Yeah, we had a few drinks over at the Hyatt – he seems to be hooked in with a lot of guys up North - I agreed to sell to him.

Fat wife: you got 20% over cost right?

Beta: No, it’s a first time deal and I’d like to check this guy out – I gave him 14% above cost for a first time deal.

Fat wife: What, you are kidding me right – you are fucking kidding me. You stupid man. You just gave a guy 25% off our usual price – he’ll tell our rivals, and why the hell did you give up that much money? You could have given him 19% over cost. What, was there some little hoochie momma there at the bar – did you really goto the Hyatt, huh. I can’t believe you. Is that perfume I smell.

Beta: So what, it’s a one time . .
.
Fat wife: shut up – I should run this business. The way you run it we will be living in a shack. . .

Invariably, the guy will change his mind rather than sleep in the doghouse.

I would bet, if you thought back to all your deals – the guys with the best looking wives did not give you any trouble – it would have been the guys with the ugly wives.

On the question of ‘law’ taking a hit – this downturn is industry wide and getting stronger. There are a number of factors (the fact that law is declining is actually good for society)

1. Most laws against personal injury cases are getting stronger – for instance in New York you really have to have a real injury to maintain an auto accident lawsuit – auto litigation has gone off a cliff – it is now possible to really hurt your back in an auto accident and feel it for the rest of your life and not be able to maintain a lawsuit or get any benefit other than about $10,000 in no fault benefits.

2. The cost of maintaining even a good lawsuit has gone through the roof – for instance if you need a doctor to come down and testify – he may charge $10,000 and only work for 30 minutes. If you need a Doctor’s report about your own client to go to an insurance company to prove an injury – the doctor may charge you $2000 up front. It is simply too expensive to maintain a roster of 300 to 400 somewhat crummy cases anymore as so many did.

3. Law schools are churning out record numbers of lawyers despite the fact that the industry is shrinking.

4. People can now do their own wills, form their own corporations, and go to small claims courts without a lawyer and do a pretty good job. This takes away a lot of little things your local lawyer would take care of. You could train a bright high school students to do 98% of a lawyer’s job.

I’ll get some more up later -

Post: #24

5. Contract doc review work being outsourced to India.

6. The legal economy is a parasite on the larger economy, which is already on life-support.

7. Corporations continue their exodus from America, producing even less need for American laws (and thus lawyers).

Post: #25

the problem for this country is its not just lawyers being downsized, its alot of industries. between technology (the internet) and the increasing availability of information the need for professionals who used to provide these services is gone. i seriously think that the last recession never ended and things are going to keep getting worse before they get better.