Post: #1

I'm currently in a master's program in a STEM field in the US, and I hope to finish by next spring. I want to ultimately work and live abroad and eventually work as a freelancer/for myself because I don't enjoy my life in the US. I have lived/traveled briefly in Asia and had a much better experience there. Since I like math and am good at it, I'm thinking stats/data science/mathematical finance is a great career path for me. I have already taken coursework in prob/stats, numerical analysis and numerical linear algebra

After finishing my Master's, I think there's a good chance I can get a decent job at a large company in the US for a quantitative analyst role for a bank, or something like that. I'm already aware that to live and work abroad, you need to get a work visa, and foreign countries are highly unlikely to give those away to recent grads. Or, you can work for a large company in the US for a few years and then try to get an internal transfer. However, I heard this is very hard to pull off. OTOH, I really don't want to have to teach English just so I can live in Asia

I'm guessing Singapore and HK would be the best bets for me because I can get by with just English, and maybe some financial companies would want someone with my skills/background. Japan is also intriguing, but I don't speak much Japanese.

For those who were able to find jobs to live and work abroad, what do you recommend is the best approach for someone in my position? Work for a multinational in the US for several years and then hope I can transfer? Or immediately after finishing my Master's, just come to HK/Singapore/Japan on a tourist visa and try to get a job? Or just get an English teaching position in Japan and then look for a 'real' job?

Thanks in advance!

Post: #2

In addition to the women, I talk to a lot of foreign guys in bars in different countries, because it is the richest source of information available. The internet is as useful as a 1950s phone book in comparison.

In general, foreign professionals I've talked to in non-English-speaking countries were in one of these camps:
- Employed by US/other western company, who then 'sent' them to that country (especially in Japan).
- Could speak the local language to a business standard, and had succesfully applied to jobs for that reason.
- Had been head hunted from another country based on their status in their industry
- Were in a profession that could be effectively freelanced
- Were business owners (mostly older men)

I know a guy who got a job in finance in HK straight out of uni, he would have applied over the internet.

Also keep in mind that higher degrees (such as Masters) get a lot of respect in Asia. Frequently people have told me a Masters is an enormous social and professional status boost.

In Australia, by comparison, a Masters or PhD is actually damaging to social and professional status.

Post: #3

The expats jobs are very few these days, and only at senior levels. Companies have gotten wiser to the fact that they can hire locals and pay them much less for the same work, and they are likely to perform up the same standards and very often have the same educations, from US or other western universities.
How many foreigners do you have studying at your college? Likely, a lot. And likely, a lot of them are going back home and competing for the same jobs as you, but with the advantage that they know the local language, and don't need visas.
Just an example - from an insider at Cargill I heard that these days they only have a few hundred expats abroad. This is a huge company with billions of $ in revenue, and tens of thousands of employees. They operate globally - in most countries in the world. So that comes out to only a few expats per country! You make your own estimate how likely it is to get a job like that.

Post: #4

(10-06-2014 12:50 AM)kongzi Wrote:  I'm currently in a master's program in a STEM field in the US, and I hope to finish by next spring. I want to ultimately work and live abroad and eventually work as a freelancer/for myself because I don't enjoy my life in the US. I have lived/traveled briefly in Asia and had a much better experience there. Since I like math and am good at it, I'm thinking stats/data science/mathematical finance is a great career path for me. I have already taken coursework in prob/stats, numerical analysis and numerical linear algebra

After finishing my Master's, I think there's a good chance I can get a decent job at a large company in the US for a quantitative analyst role for a bank, or something like that. I'm already aware that to live and work abroad, you need to get a work visa, and foreign countries are highly unlikely to give those away to recent grads. Or, you can work for a large company in the US for a few years and then try to get an internal transfer. However, I heard this is very hard to pull off. OTOH, I really don't want to have to teach English just so I can live in Asia

I'm guessing Singapore and HK would be the best bets for me because I can get by with just English, and maybe some financial companies would want someone with my skills/background. Japan is also intriguing, but I don't speak much Japanese.

For those who were able to find jobs to live and work abroad, what do you recommend is the best approach for someone in my position? Work for a multinational in the US for several years and then hope I can transfer? Or immediately after finishing my Master's, just come to HK/Singapore/Japan on a tourist visa and try to get a job? Or just get an English teaching position in Japan and then look for a 'real' job?

Thanks in advance!

I agree with the comments above that it is getting increasingly difficult to find gainful employment abroad that is not teaching English.

Overall I think the best option is to employ yourself.

Are you interested in entrepreneurship?

Can you code and build web/mobile apps?

Post: #5

Pretty much what's been said already.

If you plan on working for 'someone else' in a foreign country you need to have a quality that can't be replicated or easily found in a cheaper labor pool.

I am working overseas at the moment for 'someone else' and it's because I have a skill set that cannot be learned in a text book or found cheaply. Because of it, I am paid very handsomely by people in this part of the world who demand my said skill set and are completely unwilling to compromise on someone with a different or less qualified skill set.

That said, I am an anomaly in the expat community. Most men I run into that live here are here because they're business owners, are here on short contract work, or are location independent.

Post: #6

It can be done at the entry level, but it will be hard.

If you want to do it, set aside 1 year (yes) of living expenses and move to your target market. Find cheap accommodation. Make sure your technical skills are up to par (e.g. quant finance if you go that route) and start networking. Use LinkedIn and start with alumni of your school in any field - ask them for coffees to pick their brain about living in the country etc. When you get meetings, have a <1 min story about yourself to introduce yourself and your mission & reason for being in Asia, and be a personable guy. Do this a hundred times and rock an interview or two and you'll have a job, although it may not be your dream job right off the bat - anything that gets you in the door and with the right visa is enough to get started.

Getting a couple years' experience as a quant in a bank (for example) would make this exact process much easier, for what it's worth.

Post: #7

(10-06-2014 02:18 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  Also keep in mind that higher degrees (such as Masters) get a lot of respect in Asia. Frequently people have told me a Masters is an enormous social and professional status boost.

Really? I had heard before that in Japan, it is not seen that positively because if you went to a prestigious undergrad school, you could get a job with just a Bachelor's, so those with a Master's are seen as those who couldn't get jobs straight out of undergrad. And in Korea, it seemed like people really liked/respected tall thin jerks, even if they were uneducated losers. It seemed like they really looked down on those who were less fashionable, and those with Master's degrees are more likely to be unfashionable. Please correct me if I'm wrong

Post: #8

(10-06-2014 12:50 AM)kongzi Wrote:  Work for a multinational in the US for several years and then hope I can transfer?

This.

As others posted above, it's becoming far more difficult to do this these days. US expats are more expensive than ever and typically higher maintenance than the local hiring pool that is hard working, hungry, cheap and plentiful.

Become qualified, gain experience, work your balls off and let everyone know your intentions/what you want to do. It's still possible but not straight forward or easy.

That being said, if all you want to do is be abroad, I think re-shifting your focus to scoring a high paying quant job here in the states, banking monies for two years and then having options.

Post: #9

(10-06-2014 10:02 AM)MaleDefined Wrote:  I am working overseas at the moment for 'someone else' and it's because I have a skill set that cannot be learned in a text book or found cheaply. Because of it, I am paid very handsomely by people in this part of the world who demand my said skill set and are completely unwilling to compromise on someone with a different or less qualified skill set.

Not asking what it is, but how did you go about finding or gaining a niche skill?

(10-06-2014 10:40 AM)kongzi Wrote:  Really? I had heard before that in Japan, it is not seen that positively because if you went to a prestigious undergrad school, you could get a job with just a Bachelor's, so those with a Master's are seen as those who couldn't get jobs straight out of undergrad. And in Korea, it seemed like people really liked/respected tall thin jerks, even if they were uneducated losers. It seemed like they really looked down on those who were less fashionable, and those with Master's degrees are more likely to be unfashionable. Please correct me if I'm wrong

I can't speak for Korea specifically, other than to say 'Yes, they are ridiculously obsessed with looks'. They also do highly respect teachers, and thus I assume, academic pursuits.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10...0253571520

This is simply what I have heard repeatedly from foreigners in Japan or Asia generally. One even strongly I recommended I went back to Australia and got 'a Masters... in anything'. Perhaps this means it applies more to foreigners (makes you stand out from other foreigners maybe?).

Post: #10

(10-06-2014 11:28 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  I can't speak for Korea specifically, other than to say 'Yes, they are ridiculously obsessed with looks'. They also do highly respect teachers, and thus I assume, academic pursuits.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10...253571520.

Seemed to me that they really look down on English teachers, as they are seen as 'losers back home', or couldn't get a 'proper' job. I think the people who make huge amounts of money as described in that article have more certifications and teach business-level English. It seemed to me that most Korean males were trying to get into IT, business, sales/marketing, etc. Not teaching

Post: #11

I worked in the Netherlands and had a technical visa. It was before the 2008 crash, and they still needed workers. Netherlands is a small country and when the economy is good they may experience a shortage in workers. They have a visa for high tech workers which was pretty good. It gave you a tax break by not taxing an initial amount of your income and also gave you the right to get a Dutch driver's license in exchange for your country's license. Not having to take a driver's test is a big convenience, because in Europe it is a lot harder and expensive to pass the test. The company handled the paper work and it only took a month to get approved. Getting the job boiled down to this: 1) having senior level experience in an area where they had a shortage of workers, and 2) convincing them that an American wanted to live in Europe. I found the job by monitoring the UK version of monster.com. The UK version posts jobs in English for countries in Europe directed at workers in the UK. With Europe in a recession this becomes a more difficult strategy.

Post: #12

Along with a few other people on this thread, I am also an expat who went abroad and "made it work." However, if I had to do it all over again, I would definitely have sacrificed at least 2 years working for an MNC in the US and then transferred abroad on an expat package.

I struggled intensely while running my business and was eventually crushed under the pressure. i'm not afraid to admit it.

during that time, i made expat friends from all walks of life, most of them from the group Phoenix outlined so well in his post.

the english teachers were at the bottom of the barrel, usually scraping by aimlessly and generally acting like they were on an extended vacation. they had a more carefree life, but they always complained about money, hated their jobs, and were left at the mercy of dickhead/racist bosses. i would advise against this and you're right to not want to go down this path. I've been in Korea 4 years now and have a very extensive circle of expat friends and not once did I see an English teacher dig his/her way out of the English-teaching circle.

at the top were middle/upper level managers or CEOs who were sent abroad on nice expat packages that usually included rent and some other expenses so that they took home the majority of their salary. many were in their 40s and 50s and had children. it was hard to relate to most of them as a late-20s kid but there were always a few who went childless and just wanted to live it up. they usually worked boring jobs that paid well.

I'm of two minds here in terms of my advice to you because I know it's hypocritical of me to tell you to do what I did NOT do although I truly believe it's the better path. You can either stay in the US and build up your skills and connections working for an MNC with branches throughout Asia. OR you can roll the dice and apply for entry-level positions in finance in places like Shanghai/HK/Singapore. I promise you the second option is going to be infinitely tougher since they are more likely to hire a local over you, especially with entry-level jobs.

Just my 2 cents. I really like and agree with the stellar advice everybody else is giving here on this thread. I can tell they've gone through something similar to what I did and that their advice is to help you not make the mistakes we did.

Post: #13

I agree with the others, no real shortcut to the good expat package anymore. Connections are key. IT skills and language skills combined with some other qualification is also key. I'd definitely learn the language to some degree before moving out. If Asia, then learn Chinese, since there are plenty jobs outside China where that's a plus.

My advice would be to do as trey said. Get the qualifications first. Get one year or two years under your belt in a globally recognized business, doesn't have to be a huge MNC, just a corp with offices all over the world. Do your best there, get a promotion, take up blogging and see if you can write some guest posts on niche blogs or newspaper articles. These things help a lot, you need to have that 'expert' vibe about you, even if you're not. Most industry famous people are not the most skilled, but the one's best at given presentations, writing blogposts and twittering. You will be Google'd in this day and age. Consider what your first page looks like for your name. Can you namedrop references and links to stuff you wrote or video you did? Build your brand. This is one advantage you have over local workforce who are often woefully far behind online stuff.

When competing, companies might like the idea of the token western guy who can stand out a bit if writing content for their website or meeting clients. Don't discount it, a foreigner is usually seen as an expert more than a local, from the perspective that he has to be an expert to get a job abroad.

Last, a lot of jobs in Asia, to my understanding are pure network. Forget about applying online, you need to make friends with local expats who can vouch for you if a position opens. Some countries like Thailand, companies also have concerns if a foreigners is just looking for a way to extend a holiday, so that makes having connections even more important.

Boots on the ground basically. Go to as many Meetups and Chamber of Commerce meetings you can. Make a cool business card, look here to find some unique ones: http://graphicriver.net/category/print-t...ess-cards. Don't be the hard sale guy when networking, be a normal sociable guy, don't even talk about business unless asked. I am not sure if it is an American thing or not, but I've noticed some Americans are very high energy sales like when networking, that is not the way to do it in Asia.

If it's a bank you want to work in, don't discount that you can move up fast. Expat packages are not always seen as that desirable anymore since bonus and hardship money is less. I now a couple of bankers who got out fast, about two years in.

Post: #14

Hah, interesting that you made this post, I was literally just a few days away from creating one on this topic myself. Getting an expat job is my #1 priority for the next several months. I already did the whole "teacher" gig- I graduated in 2012 and did an 8 month stint in Shanghai as a test-prep instructor immediately thereafter. As several people here have already pointed out, that shit is nonsense. I was making the equiv. of $45k a year doing it so the money wasn't terrible, but then what? The answer is: nothing. It's a dead end move and good only for those with zero ambition.

So I came back to the US and started working in business & IT consulting for a large, relatively well known consulting firm. I've been doing it for a little over a year now and that's about all I can stand, so it's gonna be quitting time soon. During the interview process for this job the VP in charge of my practice told me there would be opportunities for me to be posted to Asia after a few months of getting into the swing of things in the US-that turned out to be a laugh. If I'm gonna get a job in Asia it will have to be by going there dick in hand and hoping that my 1 year of corporate experience will be enough to get someone to hire me.

With that said, I've taken the following actions to maximize my long term prospects:

1) Been saving my a$$ off for the entire year I've been working my current job. When I go back to Asia I should have at least 1.5 years worth of living expenses assuming I live humbly. These are worst case scenario funds-while I plan to devote most of my efforts to finding a real job, I am resigned to the fact I'll probably work part time in test prep until I land one. I already have some experience doing it and it wouldn't take too many hours a week to pay for apt, food, etc. So my savings hopefully won't get touched, but they're there to provide peace of mind while I'm searching for my break, as well as to allow me to work a poorly paid/unpaid "get your foot in the door" gig if one comes up.

2) I've been teaching myself web dev and programming in my spare time. The purposes of this are two fold: to make me more marketable to employers, of course, but also because it's a real skill that brings something to the table. I've met a lot of dudes during my time in Shanghai trying to get startups and other businesses going and there is one thing they all need, regardless of the line of business: technical people. It's one thing to enviously listen to guys in a bar talk about the business they're trying to get off the ground or expand; it's another to listen and be able to say "hey, that's a great idea. I can help you with that. Instead of worrying about hiring some jerkoffs on Elance, just bring me on board as your tech guy and we'll do this shit together." Coding and web dev skills allow you to not only start your own shit, but join other people's shit from the ground up and piggyback on their success. Even our own YMG is looking for people like that.

3) There is a very real chance all this will fail and I will have to come back to the states with tail b/w legs. If I quit my consulting job next month and spend a whole year fruitlessly searching for work in Asia, I will be hard pressed to find another corporate job upon my return to the US. For this reason I'm trying to implement an insurance policy in the form of shit I can seamlessly pick up upon my return. I've been applying and have an interview scheduled for an MWD job (oil industry) which I plan to work for a few months before leaving to Asia. MWD experience should be much more marketable than a bullshit paper shuffling job so hopefully if I am forced to come back prematurely, I can bounce back quickly from a financial perspective.

So there it is. A long ass post whose only real takeaway is that yeah, finding a "real job" in Asia ain't gonna be easy. Still, I'm in my mid 20's and still have about 5 or so years of "youth" left in the tank and I'm not gonna waste it chasing Femcunt McManjaws in the wilds of North America. Being a lowly test prep teacher in China was fun enough; going back there suited down for real work would be on a whole 'nother level. So whatever it takes, it will be worth it.

Post: #15

Teaching abroad is two different worlds.

There are ESL jobs that anyone witha degree and a pulse can get. You will scrape by in most places, and have fun, you will act like its college and get drunk al ot in slummy places.

There is a different path, I have a friend pursuing it now. If you are actually a licensed teacher with a degree in education, you can work in international schools or private bilingual schools abroad.

He works in Latin America making around 30-40k a year, apt. paid for, no taxes. So that is very nice down there, a solid income for sure. It is always an option. If you are young and might consider teachjng abroad but do not want to scrape by, consider doing education in Math or Science and with that degree, you can teach or go to a good grad school.

Post: #16

Learn a language to professional standards, and if you're game-savvy, start in sales. I got my degree in German and was on a flight to start my job before the graduation ceremony. After 6 years, I now direct all EMEA sales and spend M-F attending client meetings in different countries. 6 figures and a standard of living I couldn't have imagined in the US without studying a hard science.

As you gain experience, you can easily transition into "normal" jobs. I applied for a business development job in the UK, from Germany, that didn't require any language expertise. Once you're set up in Europe (at least legally) the chance of a company hiring you as a foreigner is exponentially higher.

Post: #17

Blick,

Can you explain how you got a job in the EU? Are you an American citizen with no other passport?

Post: #18

Correct, I'm a US passport holder with nothing else. Very simple actually, but I emphasize, you need to be VERY good at negotiating to jump through the first set of hoops. Learn game first

Germany:
Find a company that will sponsor you as an international candidate. These are typically startups or small companies that require a more agile and internationally-competent workforce to get on it's feet. I applied exclusively at startups, where getting an interview with a key decision maker and convincing him/her to hire you can all be done during the first round. At the first company I worked at in Germany, I applied on a Sunday, was interviewed Monday, and started at my desk exactly one week later.

One thing to keep in mind is that the visa process can stretch for some time. Without a visa, you are entitled to up to 90 days stay but may not work. Startups are much more willing to bend these rules, and should it be a good fit for both parties, they're (surprisingly) willing to paying you under the table until your paperwork clears. I received my salary tax-free for the first 3 months while my visa was being processed.

Keep in mind that the biggest hurdle in getting a job in Germany is salary. Germany itself is starving for well-paid employees to prop up its bloated welfare state, and as such, the only condition I can recall is salary range. In the Cologne area, a monthly earning of €2,000 will get you cleared. In Hamburg or Munich, you'll need around €3,500 per month. Many companies are also willing to put a "fake" salary on paper so you get accepted without issue.

The visa (called an Aufenthaltstitel) is generally issued for 3 year intervals, with automatic renewals should you continue to be employed. Documents needed for the visa application: copy of highschool diploma, copy of college degree, copy of resume, letter from the company stating why they need you for this job rather than a native or EU resident. Again, most companies are willing to fudge your resume and the letter so you can be accepted more easily.

If you lose your job or quit after your probation period (typically 3-6 months), you can get unemployment benefits, provided you worked at least 18 months. You also have another 3 months to find another job. After you get your initial visa, it's MUCH easier to hop around, and from that point it's just a matter of checking your salary with the Bundesagentur für Arbeit (Federal Work Agency) and getting your visa card extended for more time. I switched jobs twice without issue.

United Kingdom:
The UK is arguably the hardest country to work in as an American, and I would only recommend applying to work here after you've had 5-6 years work experience. You first need to find a company legally capable of sponsoring a foreigner (there is a government database/list somewhere), and get an offer.

The company will need to advertise the position to natives and EU workers on a website called JobCentre Plus, a government job forum. The company I worked for made the qualifications so strict - at least on paper - that the government didn't raise any eyebrows when I was put forward for the visa.

Then you'll need to apply for what's called a "Tier II General Visa" from your previous country of residence. When I got a job in the UK, I needed to schedule an appointment providing all documents (diplomas, passport photo, background check, etc.) and hand over my passport to the British consulate. They then send all this stuff back to the UK, leaving you without a passport for up to 1-2 months. Once you're all cleared, your passport will arrive back with a visa attached.

Shortcuts and other options:
- Working in a high-demand field like engineering, medicine, or computer science will allow you to get an immediate visa in a very short period of time. You are worth your weight in gold in Europe if you work in one of those fields, regardless which country.
- You can also apply for a freelance visa in Germany, allowing you to teach English or pursue other freelance opportunities, provided you work under a certain number of hours. There's an alarming number of Americans teaching English here and living up a college lifestyle without any legal complications. Keep in mind, you'll need to file taxes yourself, and a tax consultant (Steuerberater) can be very expensive.
- Other countries in the EU function in a similar way. Denmark and the Netherlands are probably the hardest, along with France (if you can't speak the language). Spain and Italy are a dead zone economically, not a chance.

Hopefully this helps as a rough guideline. If you have any more specific questions feel free to ask!

Post: #19

Blick, are big data/stats/financial math/quant also in high-demand in the EU (excluding UK)? Would I have alot more difficulty than you, even though I'll have a Master's soon, because I have little/no work experience? Do you recommend I work in the US for a multinational for 1-2 years before trying to come to Europe/Germany and get a job with a German/European company?

Post: #20

I am probably an outlier but I lucked into an internship in Europe because a previous colleague knew someone that worked there. That led to another internship in Europe and finally full time employment after graduation with my Masters. I was also eligible for the EU Blue Card with my employer sponsoring me so the Visa didn't take that long.

Post: #21

kongzi, anything math or science related is gold here. Where you should go with it depends on what you want:

a.) women (go to Europe)
b.) money (go to the US)

I would also recommend joining a European company. Better work culture (matter of opinion), more vacation days, and less PC crap. Native companies will also tend to be smaller (and more flexible in bending the rules), as mid-sized companies make up the bulk of Germany's economy.

Post: #22

Interesting thread. I am in China learning Chinese right now and see endless amounts of possibilities. But you have to be able to speak Chinese here unless you want to work in very limited niche in honk kong/shanghai.

I think marketing/sales could work superbly - there is a growing interest in English marketing and all of the products here have mostly just shitty English which sounds incredibly funny.

Teaching english other than as a purpose of learning Chinese seems ridiculous. I have met many 30+ years old English teachers who have got stuck here and have no point and no purpose in their life. They just teach English.

Post: #23

Quote:There is a different path, I have a friend pursuing it now. If you are actually a licensed teacher with a degree in education, you can work in international schools or private bilingual schools abroad.

He works in Latin America making around 30-40k a year, apt. paid for, no taxes. So that is very nice down there, a solid income for sure. It is always an option. If you are young and might consider teachjng abroad but do not want to scrape by, consider doing education in Math or Science and with that degree, you can teach or go to a good grad school.

Since it sounds like it would be very difficult/almost impossible to find a STEM-related job in Asia or Europe with just a MS and no work experience, is it any easier to find work as a math/science teacher, such as at an expensive school for rich kids in Asia or the Middle East? Are Master's degrees from US universities very well respected in the Middle East?

Post: #24

(11-17-2014 01:01 AM)kongzi Wrote:  

Quote:There is a different path, I have a friend pursuing it now. If you are actually a licensed teacher with a degree in education, you can work in international schools or private bilingual schools abroad.

He works in Latin America making around 30-40k a year, apt. paid for, no taxes. So that is very nice down there, a solid income for sure. It is always an option. If you are young and might consider teachjng abroad but do not want to scrape by, consider doing education in Math or Science and with that degree, you can teach or go to a good grad school.

Since it sounds like it would be very difficult/almost impossible to find a STEM-related job in Asia or Europe with just a MS and no work experience, is it any easier to find work as a math/science teacher, such as at an expensive school for rich kids in Asia or the Middle East? Are Master's degrees from US universities very well respected in the Middle East?

To work at a true international school, one in which you are teaching expatriate children living in that country, you'd need at minimum 3 years of teaching domestically, a master's in education, and a full licensure. There are 'international' schools in name only, with wealthy natives, that you can get in the door with lesser credentials, but buyer be very aware.

Post: #25

Quote: But from what I hear, Monterrey is rather boring...If you strike out with girls, sounds like there's pretty much nothing to do or see there. It's like the Mexican version of Phoenix. That's another reason I vouch for DF. If you have any other reason to travel other than 100% chasing women, there's endless shit to do and see in Mexico City. It's the "real" Mexico.

Quote: I'd recommend Mexico City as it has a lot of stuff to do during the day tourist-wise

But from what I've gathered about DF, the main attractions are palaces, museums and historical sights. But I'm not interested in any of that stuff. I would like to try real Mexican food

I'm more interested in experiencing this:

Quote:You don't really need much if any game in Mexico. As has been stated on other Mexico threads, chics there when they think you're cute will stare, they will flirt and they will act thirsty. There's none of that indirect shit like in Anglo countries