Post: #1

When I was 18-19 I was running 6 minute miles. My two mile run time averaged around 12:45. Since then, I have gotten slower and slower every single year. Now a 7:30 minute mile makes me feel like puking. Average 2 mile times is hovering around mid to high 15 minutes. My 5k time is around 25 minutes, which is apparently at the 51 percentile.

I want to increase my race speed without losing much in the weightlifting side. It is a tradeoff, as I want to put on weight (muscle) but that makes the body heavier and thus slower.

I've started incorporating sprints into my workouts. My cardio day is typically a 5k. I have started adding speed training after a 3-5 minute cooldown walk. On those I like 60/120s, where I run at my target speed (6:00 mile) for 60 seconds, and then a very light jog for 120 seconds.

Any advice would be helpfull, I'm looking to drop my 2 mile time to 14:30 within a few months. That's two consectuive 7:15 miles while a 7:30 currently makes me puke. Keep in mind I don't want to lose my weightlifting gains.


Hills? Suicide sprints? 60/120s?

Post: #2

Adding muscle is not going to slow you down much.

I would do low reps with the quick lifts to increase your sprinting speed. So cleans, snatch, push presses/jerks if you can. Speed deadlifts are a good idea, too, if you don't want to get too technical.

It has been said that inside of 20 meters, oly lifters are faster than olympic sprinters.

On top of that I'd throw in some hill sprints twice a week.

One session you'd sprint up the hill as fast as possible, then rest enough to comfortably do it again. It could be a minute, two minutes, whatever. Do it by feel and try to get 10-15 quality sprints up the hill done. Focus on technique, you might want to transition to flat ground after a while. This will increase your max speed.

The next session I would run up and down the hill as many times as possible in 10-20 minutes to increase your conditioning so you don't gas out after 15 minutes of continuous activity.

The last thing I would do is cut some fat.

All these things will help you run faster.

Every once in a while you could do a 2 mile run just to see where you're at. Once you get to where you want to be, you could do a 2 mile run once a week to maintain, occasionally throwing sprints in at the end of your workouts to keep your conditioning.

Post: #3

I went with these guys(two different plans, not at same time) in training for previous 5k(went from 32min 5k to 24:30 in 2 months of training) 3 years ago, and recently ran a 61s 400m and 2:20 800m in competition, age 34.

http://runsmartproject.com/coaching/

You should run a time trial or race to see how fast you are in a 3k or 5k, so they have a baseline of your current ability. Then tell them your desired pace(within reason) and they can design a 12 week program based on Jack Daniels VDOT training formulas.

That way you know exactly how you need to train in order to get to your goal, without injuring yourself. This is better than guessing what your training should be and makes it easy to track progress.

*I'm not affiliated with the website but found the $55 plans to be worth it.

Post: #4

Ran track for 5 years. Ran the 800m in 1.57 and the 5k at around high 16.00s. PM me, I can give you a ton of suggestions based on what you need/want depending on what you want to do.

It's not that it's secret, it just really depends and it's a lot of information. Anyone who wants help, feel free.

Post: #5

There are many ways to skin this cat, and depending on what kind of training you enjoy your path to your goals will vary.

Daniels Running Formula is bar-none the gold standard book on running training/science. A lot of college/pro coaches use the formulas and workouts in here verbatim and it's time-tested stuff.

Worth a read if you want to delve deeper into both the science and training components of running.

Post: #6

Aer, I heard the Vibrant five fingers help running become more enjoyable. What's your take on it?

Post: #7

I'd be interested in hearing more about this as well.

Post: #8

Plyometrics.

Quote:Plyometrics–dynamic, high-velocity exercises that build explosive power–force your muscles to lengthen and contract over and over again at top speeds (just like running does!), which makes them the most functional strength training a runner can do, says New York City sports-medicine physician and Ironman competitor Jordan D. Metzl, M.D. Add plyometrics to your routine at least once a week, says Dr. Metzl, and your runs will feel easier, you'll be more resistant to injury, and you'll even get faster. For the exercises below, do four sets of 15 reps of each move, and work up to seven sets.

http://www.runnersworld.com/workouts/jum...and-faster

Post: #9

(02-25-2015 10:33 PM)Clint Barton Wrote:  I went with these guys(two different plans, not at same time) in training for previous 5k(went from 32min 5k to 24:30 in 2 months of training) 3 years ago, and recently ran a 61s 400m and 2:20 800m in competition, age 34.

http://runsmartproject.com/coaching/

You should run a time trial or race to see how fast you are in a 3k or 5k, so they have a baseline of your current ability. Then tell them your desired pace(within reason) and they can design a 12 week program based on Jack Daniels VDOT training formulas.

That way you know exactly how you need to train in order to get to your goal, without injuring yourself. This is better than guessing what your training should be and makes it easy to track progress.

*I'm not affiliated with the website but found the $55 plans to be worth it.

whew, a 61s 400 is screamin.. congrats on that. My best my senior year in HS was 64s. I was always 1st-3rd place.

Post: #10

(02-26-2015 09:22 AM)Moma Wrote:  Aer, I heard the Vibrant five fingers help running become more enjoyable. What's your take on it?

It's a great shoe, if you run correctly with them.

For years I was made to believe that the more support on the shoe, the better. I was sorely mistaken.

So I switched shoes and switched running styles. Switching style called for landing between my midfoot-toe area, and lengthening my stride. Almost immediately I noticed calf soreness, but I read it was commonplace. After a few more weeks of running this way on Nike Frees (the first model, way before Vibrams existed...mind you this was 8 years ago), I noticed that my plantar fasciitis seemed to disappear, along with shin splints.

So yes, vibrams are great, if you run like humans are supposed to without shoes. If you run like you do in trainers or like most people do, you'll damage your heels and accumulate a ton of wear and tear.

Use with caution.

Edit: Vibrams are the shit for olympic lifting though. I swear by them for that.

Post: #11

Aer,

Would you mind elaborating on the running style that your talking about? I think I know what your getting at, I just want to be sure.

I'm currently rehabbing a broken foot, I'm a basketball player, I have a lot of free time so I've been doing a lot of research into biomechanics especially running mechanics.

Are you saying that 'How most people run' is the 'heel-toe' style?

I've been reading stuff along the lines of the running style of bouncing on the balls on the feet helping contract the glutes and propel you forward, reducing stress on your knees etcetera. I'm still looking into it all.

Thoughts?

Post: #12

(02-27-2015 01:09 AM)Blackwell Wrote:  Aer,

Would you mind elaborating on the running style that your talking about? I think I know what your getting at, I just want to be sure.

I'm currently rehabbing a broken foot, I'm a basketball player, I have a lot of free time so I've been doing a lot of research into biomechanics especially running mechanics.

Are you saying that 'How most people run' is the 'heel-toe' style?

I've been reading stuff along the lines of the running style of bouncing on the balls on the feet helping contract the glutes and propel you forward, reducing stress on your knees etcetera. I'm still looking into it all.

Thoughts?

Yes, I mean most people run heel-toe style. It comes naturally with shoes that have a lot of support.

And in terms of changing your strike, it's very difficult. Think of it like changing the way you walk; it's not going to come easy at first. After a few long runs with your foot focused on striking the ground in a proper manner, it starts to become more natural. But sometimes you have to prevent the heel-toe relapse.

And it definitely does reduce stress on knees. Why do you think distance runners have such bad problems with knees and joints in old age? It's because they put such heavy stress on joints for such a long period of time.

And it definitely helps with calf development. Your calves are going to be another type of sore after the first few runs, but you should be good afterwards. I suggest focusing on trail running and running on grass/sand to make it a bit easier on your muscles at first.

I like to call it "red pill running". It's naturally the way you were supposed to run. Someone (not going to name any names) decided to change it in the early 1970's as it was more profitable to with the onset of the jogging phenomenon in the US. It's definitely hard to change, but it's well worth it. I did, and never looked back.

Post: #13

Agree with the above post.

Forefoot strike running took a minute off my two miler without any additional volume or sprint work. Seems like its just more efficient.

Post: #14

Best way to improve your running speed: hire a good running coach.

A few sessions with a mate (also a lifter at my club) who's a competitive sprinter at university level improved my running a lot. Suddenly I could use all the leg & glute strength I've built up through lifting.

As for your actual goal, say, the 2 miles time target, you should break down the pace.

You want to run 2 miles in X seconds (convert your minutes to secs). That means 1 mile (~1600m) in X/2 secs, or 800m in X/4 secs, 400m in X/8 secs etc. That's your desired pace.

Then you devise a running schedule where one day you hit multiple 400ms, other days on 800m, 1600m etc. at the desired pace, with a nice break in between sets. The goal is to keep that pace effortlessly. When the pace is so natural and easy for your body to maintain at shorter distances (than 2 miles), you'll be able to hit 2 miles in X seconds.

This sort of thing is used a lot in shorter endurance events across many sports. First time I learned it was in Girevoy sports (KB lifting), then in long distance swimming, 100 burpees race etc. Most people tend to train for those events wrong by burning themselves out in the first half of the race, then their pace would drop to nothing by the second half.

The other stuff like hill sprints etc. might help but specificity is king in pretty much every athletic pursuit. The more specific your training is to your actual desired goal / competition, the more transfer you get. Obviously for you running 2 miles constantly is the most specific but breaking it down like the above is a very small degree difference and is easier to train for and recover from, which will best help you achieve your goal.

Post: #15

The main practice that helped me the most seems very counter-intuitive, but I swear by it. I only "ran" distance (more than a mile) one or two times each week. 4 or 5 days each week, I would do long stretches (12-20 minutes) of kettlebell exercises (mainly swings and snatches). Generally, I would mix these in with light jump roping (another good, nontraditional cardio exercise) which would help to diversify and make the sessions a bit more tolerable. The benefit? MUCH better endurance while maintaining a more toned and muscled, weightlifter look (never wanted to look like a runner).

My KB cardio sessions would look like this:

A. 15 minutes of KB swings/jump rope broken into 50 swings (35 pound KB) then 20 jump ropes, 45 swings, 25 jump ropes, 40 swings, 30 jump ropes....until I got to 10 swings before moving back up the ladder.
B. 12 minutes of KB snatches/pullups broken into 10 snatches (each hand) and 20 pullups, 8 snatches (each hand) and 16 pullups....down to 4 snatches before moving back up.

I would do each twice each week to start my workouts. Great to get good cardio in at that start before moving on to more lifting. I would do long runs (4-5 miles) only 1-2 days each week, but I can say with much confidence that the KB work was the real moneymaker. Please feel free to PM me for more details.

Post: #16

I wrote about this in a thread a little while back:

Quote:I've experimented with sprint training before since due to playing some competitive footy in the past. Nowadays I don't sprint anymore because there are diminishing returns for me if I'm not playing sports like I used to.

Although sprint training from time to time is excellent for optimizing muscle performance, like no other. And you'll build a certain fast twitch element in your muscles that last through time, as long as you maintain general conditioning by always walking, doing some aerobic activity in the gym from time to time, and weight training. It's also rewarding to know I can join a pick up game of american football or basketball and wind guys who are much more skilled than me at the sport but don't have the same background in explosive training.

Sprinting has different benefits in my experience as opposed to resistance training. The latter will have more noticeable improvements in body composition and the former will be more performance based. Sprinting will improve resistance training output though whereas resistance training will do less for sprinting.

I'd say they are good to include in a training regime, almost as a beneficial distraction. I wouldn't do them more than once a week, even for myself a 21 year old recovery is difficult. Sprinting when done right should expend the muscles more than any other form of training and recovery should be appropriate. Any more than once a week is for track athletes and their training regime focuses more on running than weight training so that makes sense.

I like to do tabada on a stationary bike from time to time to maintain that sprint training element. But nothing compares to running on a track or flat ground. Proper sprint training cannot occur on a treadmill or stationary bike. The bike has certain movement limitations and actually running the sprints requires much more of your body and it's not so much about the speed you run at but the intensity. Although level 8 on the treadmill might be your fastest running speed so you could do it on the treadmill your focus should be 1000% on maximal effort and no portion of that focus should be used to calibrate whether you are running straight and carefully on the treadmill or not.

When I used to run in the track I did something like this:
Warmup - 10 minutes of slow jogging and more importantly a variety of dynamic stretches
2 minutes fast jog/2 minutes slow jog, twice with some quick starts to get the muscles ready for 110% -- 8 minutes
20 seconds sprint/ 40 seconds slow slow jog ,4 times, up to 6 (higher conditioning dependent) -- 4-6 minutes
cooldown

I can't stress dynamic stretches enough, you have to properly prepare your entire skeletal muscle system for sprinting. I've pulled muscles before during the sprint even when I thought I had warmed up enough, so now I put more effort into the warmup.

Speed is not as important as intensity. You will push your oxygen consumption level when you do this. Although overtime don't be surprised if you find yourself flying on a track when compared to when you first started. When I first started doing this stuff in high school for sports I wasn't ever the fastest on the field, I always had opponents beating me in speed and I play a wingback position that requires speed to keep up with the opponent wingers. Needless to say, a couple years later playing in games with university level athletes I was able to keep up and in many cases outmatch opponents in speed, despite most players being higher skilled athletes than me (I never took it far enough to compete varsity level).

You have to lay it all out on those sprints, those short intervals really have to be 200% effort.

There's other benefits I haven't mentioned involved that you could imagine from sprinting. Improved pain tolerance, trains your will, among the rush you get once you're done.

------

I had been meaning to talk about sprinting for some time, it's always been a topic I've enjoyed. /end rant

Post: #17

After reading the OP, I see your interested in decreasing your mile times.

When I used to sprint like I outlined above, my mile run times were below 6 minutes, with my best ever being 5:31.

I haven't done sprint training in at least a year and I estimate my time today to be somewhere between 6 and 7 minutes.