Post: #26

@Hades - I recently started doing light kettlebell swings. So far so good. I know my lower back is weak. Always has been and its probably genetic. My dad (not a lifter) used to have severe back pains when he was young and so do my uncles from my father's side.

I tried to do the deadlift to increase my core strength and it would help me with my overall performance but it backfired on me. Literally. All other back exercises go really well. Pull downs, chin ups, seated rows. Just not lower back exercises.

Like I said, muscle imbalance or not, I'm never deadlifting again.ever. Don't wanna be walking with a cane or tripod in my 60's due to a wrecked back.

Post: #27

@H1N1. - If I can't deadlift while I'm in tip top shape in just about every exercise that isn't part of the "big three" then this exercise just isn't for me. Yet again you advise me to "strengthen my weak lower back". What for? If my lower back isn't hurting me while I'm working out and gaining muscle all over my body, why should I keep injuring myself trying to fix a problem that is only there when I try to fix it?

Why would I risk herniating my back and ending up with a serious life long back problem? Like I said before , I was dumb enough not to listen to my body and tried to push myself a little bit harder to gain more back muscle. That backfired and now I'm paying for the consequences.

Everyone has different strenghts and weaknesses. I have mine and you probably have yours. Nothing wrong with that.

Post: #28

All of the "just do the big 3 compound lifts!" stuff you hear can be very misleading.
I did all that, then finally after seeing at all the big guys at the gym doing isolation exercises, gave a good split program a try, and guess what...I ENJOY it a lot more, and I'm making more visible gains.

Post: #29

(04-08-2015 05:12 PM)Spike Wrote:  @H1N1. - If I can't deadlift while I'm in tip top shape in just about every exercise that isn't part of the "big three" then this exercise just isn't for me. Yet again you advise me to "strengthen my weak lower back". What for? If my lower back isn't hurting me while I'm working out and gaining muscle all over my body, why should I keep injuring myself trying to fix a problem that is only there when I try to fix it?

Why would I risk herniating my back and ending up with a serious life long back problem? Like I said before , I was dumb enough not to listen to my body and tried to push myself a little bit harder to gain more back muscle. That backfired and now I'm paying for the consequences.

Everyone has different strenghts and weaknesses. I have mine and you probably have yours. Nothing wrong with that.

This is bordering on the absurd. You have essentially responded to me by saying: 'I know I have a glaring weakness, I know it is likely the result of an imbalance that can be fixed with proper training, I know it is likely to be an on going problem that impacts many areas of my life and may lead to further hospital visits if I don't address it. Why should I address it, why can't it just be my weakness so that I can keep doing curls.'

You are not in tip top shape, as you can't squat or bend at the waist without breaking in two. You are actually in terrible shape and despite your animosity, I am trying to help you. You may be able to perform single joint exercises, or exercises with low weights, or ones that allow you to lie down, but if you can't squat or bend at the waist you have a serious physiological problem that requires medical attention.

You ask why you should fix your back if you're making gains (can you quantify these gains, since you can't squat or deadlift?). You seem to think I am offering you bodybuilding advice. At this point, it is life advice. You're 38 and you are weak as a kitten and vulnerable to injury in the same way my 85 year old grandmother is. The issue may manifest when you deadlift, but if you can hurt yourself with good form on a balanced bar at 160lbs, you are going to do yourself serious damage at some point in the next decade just performing daily tasks (picking up heavy shopping, lifting a child, shagging, whatever). Packing more muscle mass on your frame, if indeed you are doing that, is also adding to the load on your lower back, one of the crucial points in your body for baring load.

As Hades said, 'I don't care' whether you deadlift or not, or fix your obvious weaknesses and enjoy a reasonable quality of life. In response to your point about us all having weaknesses, that may be true, but weaknesses become relative over time and with dedicated effort to improve. My pressing is a weakness, as I have poor levers and an average shoulder width. That said, I'm still a stronger presser than 99% of the population, because I have devoted a lot of time to fixing it.

It seems mad to me to acknowledge you have a problem, and conclude that the best way of handling it is just to pretend it doesn't exist.

Post: #30

^^ what's absurd is your insulting reaction. Please stay out of this thread if you don't like what I'm saying. I didn't ask for your "advice".

Goodnight!

Post: #31

(04-08-2015 06:05 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  You ask why you should fix your back if you're making gains (can you quantify these gains, since you can't squat or deadlift?). You seem to think I am offering you bodybuilding advice. At this point, it is life advice. You're 38 and you are weak as a kitten and vulnerable to injury in the same way my 85 year old grandmother is. The issue may manifest when you deadlift, but if you can hurt yourself with good form on a balanced bar at 160lbs, you are going to do yourself serious damage at some point in the next decade just performing daily tasks (picking up heavy shopping, lifting a child, shagging, whatever). Packing more muscle mass on your frame, if indeed you are doing that, is also adding to the load on your lower back, one of the crucial points in your body for baring load.

This is a point. Sometimes you get an injury that just can't be rehabbed on a reasonable time frame. It doesn't mean you must stop completely, but you you can't continue as before.

Once any acute injury is in the past deadlifting the bar, or the bar with a couple ten pound plates to get it further off the floor and striving for absolutely perfect form is an option. Just going through the motions with some token resistance to keep the muscles engaged and away from atrophy. Just need to move from the mentality of doing the big combo lifts for gains and towards doing them as part of maintenance/rehab.

Back surgery though is an outcome to avoid. It introduces new problems, and in the best cases these new problems will end up being less bad than whatever they replaced. If there's a back injury at play goal number one should be keeping it from becoming something that requires surgical intervention.

Post: #32

Spike-

I feel you man, I do. I can't tell you how many times I've deadlifted or squat and had a shitty workout or hurt myself and walk away thinking, "This shit just isn't for me."

You know we're the same height. I'm 6'3". We have similar builds. I've had chronic lower back pain my entire life, due to a subluxed L4/L5.

I just got back in the gym today after a week off from my quad tendon flaring up. I put too much weight forward during my squat and bang. Knee is sore as shit for a week. I'm not that much younger than you.

I can understand your decision to swear off of DL and squat, but I think you're cheating yourself out of an opportunity to get stronger and fitter. I've had a couple back blowouts and I remember thinking the exact same thing, "Never again!"

In any workout routine, YOU WILL HURT YOURSELF. Whether it's crossfit, heavy compounds, or high reps on machines. You step foot in a gym, and you will hurt yourself.

The way I personally justify it is; I would rather hurt myself getting fitter. When I hurt myself in the gym, I'm out for 3-7 days. But this is NOTHING in comparison to the chronic pain I used to suffer when I was younger and sedentary.

Obviously there are different types of pain. A herniated disk is no joke. But my belief is that you are under no risk of a herniated disc unless you have some serious genetic defects or you're squatting/deadlifting at least twice your body weight.

Every time I've hurt myself and come back, I'm happier for it. There is nothing as mentally and physically uplifting as to get in front of some weight, something that you previously said, "I can't do this" and then you DO it.

This injury occured because of poor form or some imbalance. That's not an insult; there's not a guy in this forum that hits every single rep with perfect form. When shit gets heavy, your body will compensate by making minute changes to balance and weight distribution. Sometimes you get away with it, sometimes not. Squatting and deadlifting are natural movements. You should be able to air squat just fine (especially from taking dumps in asia). And if you can air squat fine, you can barbell squat fine. Picking shit up off the floor with a straight back and locked arms is a natural movement.

Take some time off and do convict conditioning to stay fit. Bridges and back extensions will keep your lower back reasonably strong. If you're ever in Vegas hit me up and I'll help with your form.

Post: #33

Spike, I recommend you check out Mike Boyle's position on quad and hip dominant compound exercises.

single leg training

Post: #34

I'm at the same height and had similar problems aswell.
Then I stopped deadlifting and squatting because my lower back didn't feel quite
alright.

I started to study the movements and correct form and five weeks later I was ready to give it another try. Started off easy and never had a problem since.

Now I'm lifting heavier and heavier and my body is growing and I feel damn good.
Squats and deadlifts are the core of my workouts right now.

Post: #35

I'm a competing powerlifter and powerlifting coach (mostly coaching beginners and intermediates). I'm built rather poorly for the deadlift and was once injured by it, but has since built a respectable 3xBW conventional deadlift and 3.3xBW sumo deadlift. I have poor natural strength and it takes a lot of training and working on techniques for me to get to where I am now.

This post is not to convince anyone whether they should deadlift or not. I'm just throwing out random thoughts from my experience.

Because I have a good deadlift, I've coached many people to improve theirs. I don't coach complete novices generally, most who come to me already have been lifting for a while. They all tell me how they've been focused on form, and they are correct, except that their form was still rubbish. I see it in random guys training in normal gym outside of my lifting club too. They lift very light weights like the OP, they focus hard on form, but they have no idea what they are focusing on (hint: lifting very slowly is not focusing on form). In the past, I used to make a comment here & there wanting to help out, but they never listened, so I stopped.

An adult male getting hurt by 160lb deadlift will just as easily get hurt by bending over and picking up a small object from the ground - the most common cause of back injuries according to my sport physio.

I train people of very different body types. Right now, at the two extremes, I have a 5'6" 115lb skinny girl who just pulled 2x6x220lb after squatting and benching on the same night, and a 6'8" guy with severe mobility issues (working on it) who pulled 2x5x275lb. In between, I have guys big and small pulling up to about 420lb for 5 reps.

How do I train the deadlift - for myself and others? The deadlift has the potential to fuck you up badly, because it is the exercise that you can lift the most weight with, although among compound lifts, it is a relatively simpler one, technique-wise. Programming the deadlift in training therefore requires some smarts. Personally I follow a model I learned and adapted from Reactive Training System. Deadlift development goes through a few stages:

Stage 1: learn high tension techniques, learn how to brace the core, grip hard, lock the upper back, drive the legs, proper hip hinge, build general strength through a variety of exercises (including a lot of squats) and deadlift sparingly. In fact, in this stage, the deadlift is used more as a showcase of strength than to build strength. Often just one or two top deadlift set per week is enough.

Stage 2: add deadlift drop sets after top sets, maybe add frequency by introducing a second deadlift session (national-level elite powerlifters)

Stage 3: train deadlift more specifically, use minor variations to build strength e.g pauses, deficit, rack pulls (elite world class powerlifters, particularly those built well for the deadlift)

Stage 1 can last a long time, and you can get very strong from just that. FYI, I'm barely starting Stage 2 myself. I make others stay in Stage 1 for quite a while. My dad started lifting at 61 years old (he's about 145lb), and at first he just did squats, rows, abs, KB swings etc. with no deadlift. He didn't deadlift until he was 63 years old, and pulled 3x5x225lb easily in his first session.

Post: #36

I just woke up, back is feeling a bit better. Have to see what happens throughout the day.
I want to thank you guys for all your advice but I'm still not convinced dead lifting is for me.

I don't see how a genetically bad back is fixable with training only. You can't train discs and the disc fluid in between. All my life I have adapted to be carefully with my lower back. As said before, i do believe it is genetically. I've see my dad cry of pain when i was a child, i've seen him in bed for months. I've seen him use morphine for the pain. I also know my uncles (and even an aunt) have severe back problems. Its a weak point and its in the bone not the muscle. And genetics is a thing that is unchangeable. You can't advice a balding guy just to use better shampoo, that hair is falling out no matter what. You can't grow taller or a bigger dick, its genetics and that's that.
How about a guy with bum knees? Just do more squats?

Can you improve the muscles around the spine? No doubt, but at what cost? How many times does my back have to give out? And what about the disc damage that comes with it?
What if I really pop my back again and can't work out for months? Goodbye gains and staying on a diet for nearly 6 months now. All this for dead lifting?

I can still remember most of the times my back hurt. Twice while carrying a washer machine up a small flight of stairs. Dutch stairs are narrow and twist. Once while exchanging a garbage bag in the bin (fast careless movement without thinking of posture). Once picking my carpenter pencil of the ground. Once while drying myself in the shower and being too quick about it.

Once while running up a sanddune in New Zealand (still went down with the half surfboard afterwards but it hurts for a week afterwards, stayed in bed mostly with Valium's) and excessive fucking always hurts my back a bit too. I remember a painful time in the Philippines
Most of the times this happened I wasn't training at the gym so my muscles were weak anyway.

Back to yesterday. I had warmed up with a short bicycle ride and pumped the heart rate to 130. Then I did some stretching, I'm very flexible, can touch the ground with my knuckles, even with shoes on. Then I proceeded with about 25 kettlebell swings ( 25pounds) after this it was time for the deadlift.
8 x 40 kg
8 x 50 kg
8 x 60 kg
3 x 70 kg, pain on the 4th rep.

13year olds lifting 315 might be true but this is very extreme. The biggest guys at my gym lift 140 kg which is 3 plates a side + bar. (310) They do this with wrisk straps and a lifting belt. They lift once and not in set form like me. Maybe this is my mistake, perhaps I should lift once too and not go for 8 times . I always train for reps not for one time records. I believe reps is the way to grow the fastest.

In conclusion, I know I can fortity my lower back with other exercises too, although it might go slower. I also know that I don't want to be strapped in a corset for months again. No deadlifts for me then.

Post: #37

Nothing wrong with dropping deads. You can absolutely be strong and athletic without them.

You can sub in:

-Kettlebell swings for mass, power and conditioning (yes they build mass. do intervals, KB 30% of your bodyweight, your glutes/hams blow up. you also become a jackhammer in bed)

-Natural leg curls / glute ham raises. You can get beastly posterior chain strength from doing these.

-lower back extensions

-single leg work like pistols.

-Rows and pullups for mid and upper back.


All this will leave you "strong", far stronger than the average dude. You might not be "Powerlifting" strong, but really that level of strength is beyond what you need to be fit and strong and athletic over the several decades more that you'll (hopefully) be around for. The "you gotta lift bro" and the idea that unless you're doing heavy barbell lifts you're weak is macho BS and wrong.

That said. Healthy bodies should be able to deadlift.

The deadlift is a natural movement and if you have an injury that flares up when you do it, you should address that.

So if you *cant* do it because of injury (and you're using proper form), something is really amiss.

Check out soft-tissue massage and trigger point therapy - what feels like lower back joint/disc damage is often actually soft-tissue injuries in the Glutes or Quad Lumborum muscles (weird right?).

I'll say that again: what feels like joint/disc pain is often not, and may be due to tears/knots in your ass and back muscles. You can fix them with massage.

Can often be addressed with targetted use of a lacrosse ball, or seeing a soft-tissue practitioner.

Post: #38

Thanks for the advice Richie. I will look into the soft tissue massage. Only problem is that it comes out of my own pocket now. Can't really afford those 50 dollar massages.

Healthcare used to be nearly free in Holland years ago when you paid your insurance and I've had just about every treatment dozens of times. Physical therapy, bone cracking, massages, cranium something therapy, alternative therapy and the like. It never worked and it always meant going back to zero, so no lifting at all, so no muscles either.

Post: #39

(04-09-2015 04:16 AM)RichieP Wrote:  Healthy bodies should be able to deadlift.

This

Deadlifting is picking objects from floor. I wonder how people can be so vain and still care about "adding muscle" if they are not able to pick objects from floor. IMO it's better to be functional even if skinny then to be a handicapped mass of useless muscle.

All this time spent in gym working with isolation exercises is just willfully induced blindness if you ran from the fact that you can't pick up stuff from floor.

Imagine the humiliation - an orderly relative asks you to carry his bag of groceries for a minute because you look so strong and well built. You try to pick it up but as you try to lift it you suddenly feel pain in your back, you drop the bag spilling its contents all over the floor and barely get your back straight. The older person says "Well it's ok sonny you need a rest, I will take care of it myself" picks up the contents and carries the bag away slowly while thinking that the young generation sure are pussies. Any Young girls witnessing this situation cover their mouths with their hands to hide laughter. Do you want to be that guy?

If you don't use your picking up motion then one day it will atrophy and one day you will suffer for it.

The fact that you got pain while deadlifting 160 lbs means nothing, you should start with empty barbell and if that is still to much then use empty dumbbell and then gradually increase your weight. Now if you cannot execute the motion then you should see a doctor but if you can you should slowly build it up.

Maybe you will never be a great deadlifter, maybe your maximum deadlift ever will be 160 pounds but if you still deadlift regularly, if you just lift for 3 sets once a week with whatever weight you can do it safely then at least you will know what you are capable of and you will know what you can and cannot do in real life.

If you don't deadlift then whatever strength you think you have is just an illusion. Anytime in real life you need to lift an odd weight the chances are load will somehow shift to lower back and you will get injured.

Post: #40

(04-09-2015 06:25 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(04-09-2015 04:16 AM)RichieP Wrote:  Healthy bodies should be able to deadlift.

This

Deadlifting is picking objects from floor. I wonder how people can be so vain and still care about "adding muscle" if they are not able to pick objects from floor. IMO it's better to be functional even if skinny then to be a handicapped mass of useless muscle.

All this time spent in gym working with isolation exercises is just willfully induced blindness if you ran from the fact that you can't pick up stuff from floor.

Imagine the humiliation - an orderly relative asks you to carry his bag of groceries for a minute because you look so strong and well built. You try to pick it up but as you try to lift it you suddenly feel pain in your back, you drop the bag spilling its contents all over the floor and barely get your back straight. The older person says "Well it's ok sonny you need a rest, I will take care of it myself" picks up the contents and carries the bag away slowly while thinking that the young generation sure are pussies Any Young girls witnessing this situation cover their mouths with their hands to hide laughter. Do you want to be that guy?

If you don't use your picking up motion then one day it will atrophy and one day you will suffer for it.

The fact that you got pain while deadlifting 160 lbs means nothing, you should start with empty barbell and if that is still to much then use empty dumbbell and then gradually increase your weight. Now if you cannot execute the motion then you should see a doctor but if you can you should slowly build it up.

Maybe you will never be a great deadlifter, maybe your maximum deadlift ever will be 160 pounds but if you still deadlift regularly, if you just lift for 3 sets once a week with whatever weight you can do it safely then at least you will know what you are capable of and you will know what you can and cannot do in real life.

If you don't deadlift then whatever strength you think you have is just an illusion. Anytime in real life you need to lift an odd weight the chances are load will somehow shift to lower back and you will get injured.

You're going into ridiculous extremes here. I'm not that weak that I can't pick stuff of the floor or lift heavy shit when needed. The groceries example is preposterous. Just because I hurt my back deadlifting 160 after 27 reps with other lower weights doesn't mean I have no strength. That claim is idiotic.

Maybe you're strong as Hercules but 160 is still the weight of an average man. (well here's in Europe anyway).

I have a weak lower back. Perhaps I added weight to the bar too quickly. It was only the second week I deadlifted again and as said the previous 27 reps went without trouble.

I'm no less of a man because i have trouble deadlifting 160 with my weak back. In that case 99% of guys on this forum would be pussies compared to this 17 year old girl weighing 52 kg.

Wait what? You can't squat clean 180? Pussy!

Post: #41

I can understand quitting the Deadlift.

I used to Deadlift pretty heavy weight for my overall size and strength. I looked forward to doing it on the weekends just so I could put 3 45 lbs. plates on each side and rep it out. I felt like the man. Then one day, without warning, on a set of 5 reps, on rep #4 my lower back went out. I don't know if my form was slightly off, but I was not going beyond any point I had been to previously. I am sure it was a mix of over training and not 100% spot on perfect form. But over the course of years of doing this lift everyone will be at the same point of not knowing if they are pushing too far.

I tried a few times afterwards to work my Deadlift back up, but every time I got to just 225 lbs. my back would start to go out. I quit doing it. I go to the gym to be healthier and stronger, not to get hurt.

I think many things combined play a factor. Age, the older the higher the risk of injury. Overtraining, diet, sleep patterns, on and on. Just too much risk for the reward. I now just do hang cleans and front squats instead. I have considered trying to just work with 135 lbs. to hit any muscles I might be missing, but it wouldn't fit into my current workout program.

I guess my point is, for those of you who say you can only get hurt by doing it incorrectly, I do not believe that is accurate. Lots of things can play into a Deadlift injury. If you are over 25 and not a professional athlete, I see no reason to push the deadlift beyond a light rep range. If you want to go heavy, then I would recommend leg press and other back lifts to compensate the motion.

For those of you who have given up or contemplated giving up the deadlift, I think you can work your muscles in other ways and get very similar results. Back Squats, Front Squats, Rows, Pulls ups, Cleans, Leg Press, Plyometrics, and some core work (hyperextensions, bridges, glute ham raises) will give you nearly the same results.

For those who do still deadlift heavy, I got mad respect for you. It is a beastly lift. Just really listen to what your body is telling you and don't try to push past failure.

Post: #42

(04-09-2015 02:45 AM)StrikeBack Wrote:  I'm a competing powerlifter and powerlifting coach (mostly coaching beginners and intermediates). I'm built rather poorly for the deadlift and was once injured by it, but has since built a respectable 3xBW conventional deadlift and 3.3xBW sumo deadlift. I have poor natural strength and it takes a lot of training and working on techniques for me to get to where I am now.

This post is not to convince anyone whether they should deadlift or not. I'm just throwing out random thoughts from my experience.

Because I have a good deadlift, I've coached many people to improve theirs. I don't coach complete novices generally, most who come to me already have been lifting for a while. They all tell me how they've been focused on form, and they are correct, except that their form was still rubbish. I see it in random guys training in normal gym outside of my lifting club too. They lift very light weights like the OP, they focus hard on form, but they have no idea what they are focusing on (hint: lifting very slowly is not focusing on form). In the past, I used to make a comment here & there wanting to help out, but they never listened, so I stopped.

An adult male getting hurt by 160lb deadlift will just as easily get hurt by bending over and picking up a small object from the ground - the most common cause of back injuries according to my sport physio.

I train people of very different body types. Right now, at the two extremes, I have a 5'6" 115lb skinny girl who just pulled 2x6x220lb after squatting and benching on the same night, and a 6'8" guy with severe mobility issues (working on it) who pulled 2x5x275lb. In between, I have guys big and small pulling up to about 420lb for 5 reps.

How do I train the deadlift - for myself and others? The deadlift has the potential to fuck you up badly, because it is the exercise that you can lift the most weight with, although among compound lifts, it is a relatively simpler one, technique-wise. Programming the deadlift in training therefore requires some smarts. Personally I follow a model I learned and adapted from Reactive Training System. Deadlift development goes through a few stages:

Stage 1: learn high tension techniques, learn how to brace the core, grip hard, lock the upper back, drive the legs, proper hip hinge, build general strength through a variety of exercises (including a lot of squats) and deadlift sparingly. In fact, in this stage, the deadlift is used more as a showcase of strength than to build strength. Often just one or two top deadlift set per week is enough.

Stage 2: add deadlift drop sets after top sets, maybe add frequency by introducing a second deadlift session (national-level elite powerlifters)

Stage 3: train deadlift more specifically, use minor variations to build strength e.g pauses, deficit, rack pulls (elite world class powerlifters, particularly those built well for the deadlift)

Stage 1 can last a long time, and you can get very strong from just that. FYI, I'm barely starting Stage 2 myself. I make others stay in Stage 1 for quite a while. My dad started lifting at 61 years old (he's about 145lb), and at first he just did squats, rows, abs, KB swings etc. with no deadlift. He didn't deadlift until he was 63 years old, and pulled 3x5x225lb easily in his first session.

Training, form, and dedication are all very important, as you rightly point out.

But let's be honest here, and not leave out the full truth. There are only a handful of people in the world potentially capable of doing 3x BW or more on squats and deadlifts and be 100% natty. And I doubt any of them do it natty. Someone with real talent is going to be ambitious and want to compete. And it is impossible to compete if you don't gear up. Hell tons of guys who have no intention of ever competing gear up too. Whether you admit it or not, you are probably part of that group too. I'm not being a dick or a hypocrite - I have done a couple cycles in the past, and will be starting another one in the near future. I just don't like how some people talk about training and diet and supplements, but leave out the truth about the single biggest factor in rapid progression and growth above a certain point. I think in part its because the general public assumes that gear does all the work and automatically makes you huge. So, when you admit to it, in some people's eyes you get less prestige from your accomplishments. The truth is that gear can help a lot, but it doesn't do shit without a massive investment of time and dedication to go along with it.

I don't think any competitive lifters or strongmen at any real level of competition are natty. This goes for all competitions, including Olympics. The only difference at the highest Olympic levels is that they have to be much more elaborate in their masking protocols to beat the testing.

Post: #43

(04-09-2015 07:09 AM)Spike Wrote:  You're going into ridiculous extremes here. I'm not that weak that I can't pick stuff of the floor or lift heavy shit when needed. The groceries example is preposterous. Just because I hurt my back deadlifting 160 after 27 reps with other lower weights doesn't mean I have no strength. That claim is idiotic.

Well you were going to extremes no less wast - you decided that you are not meant for deadlifting just because you hurt your back deadlifting 160 after 27 reps with other lower weights after not having dead lifted for an extended period of time. Deciding to never deadlift again after this is just as extreme and if you already brought the discussion to this level - just as idiotic.

Surely you can pick up grocery bag now. But if you are not going to exercise the movement that is reponsible for this then one day you will have trouble. This is what happens with most people, why they become weak as they age and it is (sadly) considered normal. In your case however having the rest of the body trained creates a contrast that is comical. if you look like you could lift that bag but fail to deliver then it is quite embarrassing.

(04-09-2015 07:09 AM)Spike Wrote:  I have a weak lower back. Perhaps I added weight to the bar too quickly. It was only the second week I deadlifted again and as said the previous 27 reps went without trouble.

That's exactly what I suspect. You have a weak lower back and raised the weight too quickly. That's why you shouldn't give up and keep deadlifting with lower weight and then increase it gradually.

Funny how you use the same logic to prove both that you are too weak to ever deadlift again and that "it doesn't mean I have no strength". Are you weak or strong? Decide.

(04-09-2015 07:09 AM)Spike Wrote:  I'm no less of a man because i have trouble deadlifting 160 with my weak back. In that case 99% of guys on this forum would be pussies compared to this 17 year old girl weighing 52 kg.

A chain is just as strong as it's weakest link. No real life loads are carried omitting lower back.

(04-09-2015 07:09 AM)Spike Wrote:  Wait what? You can't squat clean 180? Pussy!

Well yeah not being able to squat 180 is pussy level. A man should be able to squat his bodyweight. That's just objective truth and not a personal attack to those who cannot.

Post: #44

I don't know about 99% of the forum. A 180 lb clean isn't that damn high. Wb the girl though.

The weight of an average man is somewhere around 180 lbs, give or take a few. Get your back checked out by a physio who knows what he's looking at, do a shitload of hyperextensions to get the blood flowing in your lower back, and maybe throw some jefferson curls in there for good measure. Without a picture or a video or anything there's really no way to identify what the problem is.

Post: #45

I don't know about Spike's specific condition. But I think a couple posters in this thread are being judgmental and unfairly criticizing him.

For some people squats and deadlifts are not safe, and will worsen injuries. The compound lifts are not some magic one size fits all solution to building strength. They can be dangerous for some people.

I am one of those people. I have multiple herniated and degenerated discs in my lower back along with loss of bone density in one of the vertebrae. 3 separate MRIs done over a period of 6 years show that it is only likely to get worse over time.

I can't run without pain, I can't do standing exercises with heavy weight, and I have to really pay attention to what my body tells me so that my workout sessions do not lead to further injury.

Post: #46

(04-09-2015 07:48 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  For some people squats and deadlifts are not safe, and will worsen injuries. The compound lifts are not some magic one size fits all solution to building strength. They can be dangerous for some people.

If a person can perform a squat or dead lift with empty bar then he should do it. If he has medical condition then maybe he should never lift heavy weights this way, but it doesn't means he should quit squatting and dead lifting with whatever weights he can.

If you cannot deadlift then you are not strong. There is no strength building without deadlifting and squatting. You may train for endurance, you may train for mass you may train for whatever but don't call it strength training. If you can't pick up heavy objects from floor then you may be ripped you may be fast, you may be resilient, you may be agile, you may be explosive, you may be flexible but you are not strong. If you cant pick up a fallen injured man of normal weight from floor put him on your shoulders and carry away you are not strong. If you can't move furniture around because you must take care to not put a load on your weak body part you are not strong.

Post: #47

(04-09-2015 07:59 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(04-09-2015 07:48 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  For some people squats and deadlifts are not safe, and will worsen injuries. The compound lifts are not some magic one size fits all solution to building strength. They can be dangerous for some people.

If a person can perform a squat or dead lift with empty bar then he should do it. If he has medical condition then maybe he should never lift heavy weights this way, but it doesn't means he should quit squatting and dead lifting with whatever weights he can.

If you cannot deadlift then you are not strong. There is no strength building without deadlifting and squatting. You may train for endurance, you may train for mass you may train for whatever but don't call it strength training. If you can't pick up heavy objects from floor then you may be ripped you may be fast, you may be resilient, you may be agile, you may be explosive, you may be flexible but you are not strong.

Your post deserves to be corrected, as it is a prime example of bad information.

There are many different paths to a strong body.

I do not squat or deadlift, but I am strong. I do strength training.

I am absolutely capable of doing a squat or deadlift with much more than my own bodyweight, but repeated heavy lifting with those motions only serves to damage my already fucked up discs. I can pick up heavy things. I can carry people around if needed (have actually done this when I trained and worked as an EMT). Doing it a dozen times though, and then repeating that 5 times does damage. If I do more damage to my spine, I will need fusion surgery, so I avoid certain exercises that have a high risk of further injuring me.

I strengthen the very same muscles in other ways.

I do strength training. I have, with some breaks, done so over a period of 17 years. I know what I am talking about.

People who get dogmatic about a particular way of lifting (5x5, GVT, etc) being the one and true answer are generally immature, unintelligent, and have limited experience.

Post: #48

@Mage. I don't know what kind of grocery bags you're talking about. Perhaps ones filled with anvils. I have no trouble doing a farmers walk with 45p plates on each side. And I have no doubt that I can do that when I'm 60 or older. I don't know what for I would need enormous amounts of functional strength. It's not like I'm raising pyramids in my spare time or i'm fighting wars where I have to run around with my bullet ridden buddy on my neck. Nor am I in any lifting competition or do I work on a farm.

Whenever I need to lift something heavy outside the gym I prepare for this and use proper stance and do most lifting with my legs or I do it with 2 people or I puts wheels under the heavy object to move it.

As said, I've worked in construction for 8 years. Never hurt my back lifting there but I did hurt it when raking concrete bended over. I also know that people working in construction never really get to enjoy their pension as the either die soon or their bodies are to hell.

Nor do I see powerlifters or bodybuilders in their fifties or sixties at gyms where I worked out (and I work out at regular gyms not planet fitness style gyms). The only older guys I see are doing light weights or cardio. Something tells me that these powerlifters are all wrecked. If you have love for the gym, you'll be there.

It seems that all you care about is being strong for whatever reason but I suspect this fuels your ego. I for example do not give a flying fuck about being strong. I know I'm pretty strong just from bodybuilding itself and I have no need for super strength. All I know is that when I look outside my window I see the sun shining for the first time in a long windy/rainy period of time and I'm here sitting inside with a painful back or I'm walking around like a fricking robot.

Post: #49

(04-09-2015 07:28 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  Training, form, and dedication are all very important, as you rightly point out.

But let's be honest here, and not leave out the full truth. There are only a handful of people in the world potentially capable of doing 3x BW or more on squats and deadlifts and be 100% natty. And I doubt any of them do it natty.

This just demonstrates your ignorance of strength sports, no offense. The human body is capable of much more strength than you think.

There are numerous people capable of a 3xBW deadlift and even a 3xBW squat, who are lifetime drug-free. They don't have to be anything special either, they're just average like you and I. The truly special tend to go into the big money sports. I have very average genetics for strength, I couldn't even do a pull-up until I was about 25 years old. I had a weak low back, weak hips, short arms, soft hands, long femurs (for my height) - basically built terribly for deadlifting. I've never touched any drug in my life, not even recreational ones. If I were to use drugs, I'd be pulling 4xBW right now.

Most of you guys here have no idea how to deadlift (to be specific to this thread). You may think you do, you copy form off youtube or some gym bro. but you don't know how to brace your abs, hinge your hips, drive your legs, build tension in your arms etc. Bet most of you don't even know what those things mean. If I were to show you the correct technique and train you for a couple of months, you'd probably pull 1.5x to 2x BW.

There are guys who have bigger pulls, who still suck at technique. I've been working with one who came to me with a 405lb pull at 155lb bodyweight, and his form sucked, he had no clue. A couple of weeks later, tonight he pulled 405lb x2 easily, and his low back pain is gone. He thought his low back sucked. What could be more likely was that his low back was overworked as he didn't know how to use his legs, abs, hips and lats properly.

Mage brought up training with just the bar. One big problem is that most of you start on routines like Starting Strength or Stronglift from the Internet and are told to add X pounds weekly or every session. When I train new people, I'm inspired by Chinese weightlifting system. They get to squat the stick until I'm satisfied with form. As far as I'm concerned, if you can't squat well with just the stick, putting weights on will not improve it. With deadlift, until they've learned hip hinge (from KB swings), ab bracing, lats locking and a whole bunch of high tension techniques, they will not deadlift anything off the floor.

Deadlift, squat etc. are not just strength builders, they are sport movements, which imply skill practice. If you have poor skill, you can't lift shit. If I were to take up baseball (never played in my life), I'd probably miss most of the swings, and if I were to think like you guys, I'd accuse anyone who can swing and hit the ball drug users because they're more skillful than me... See how ridiculous that is?

Anyway, this post isn't for you who have decided to quit deadlifting. It's true, you can get strong with other things. It is for others to read and think over. If you're going to use deadlift to build strength, learn the skill properly.

Post: #50

Ok guys I am not going to argue I understand we were all raised in a culture where we got medals awarded for participation not victory so I can understand how people with weak lower backs and traumas that inhibit them from functional moves still like to call themselves "strong" well assume as you please.