Post: #1

I didn't see a specific thread on this, so I started a new one. My whole life, I've had serious sleep problems which seemed to get worse during the last three years or so. Maybe two years ago, I started taking over the counter sleep aids once in a while and was easily able to get at least eight hours sleep every time I took them. I gradually increased the frequency at which I was taking them to the point where I was taking them every night. Prior sleep problems were obviously affecting my testosterone production, but as recently as a week ago, my testosterone was probably great because my sex drive and erections were almost as good as they had ever been and I felt really well rested. During the last week, the sleep aids began to not have any effect and I have slept maybe just a few hours total over the last week. I'm thinking that I may have developed a tolerance to the sleep aids, as I understand that is common. My questions are what do you guys think about this and how easy is it to get a doctor to write a prescription for sleeping pills? Thanks in advance.

Post: #2

What kind of sleep aids have you been using until now?

Post: #3

(04-11-2015 04:50 PM)Capitán Peligroso Wrote:  What kind of sleep aids have you been using until now?

I've been using Tylenol Simply Sleep every night for the past four months. Prior to that, I used a Giant Supermarket brand which seemed to work a little better.

Post: #4

If you haven't tried melatonin, you definitely should (and get time release if you wake up in the middle of the night and can't get back to sleep). I had to use it four or five times before it worked consistently for me, but you can buy like a years supply for about $5-8 almost anywhere if you live in the states. I also keep some benadryl around the house in case I think the melatonin isn't enough. Benadryl always works for me if I haven't been overusing it. That's the problem with drugs, you develop a tolerance to them very quickly. Melatonin facilitates your natural sleep processes and I've never seen any side effects, other than being a little tired in the morning if I took it too late and didn't get enough sleep.

You may also want to consider getting some kind of sleep aid herbal tea and make sun tea in big batches and drink that starting late in the day. Here is a product from a source that I trust. You could spike that tea with some valerian root (it already has some in it, but it's probably a fairly low concentration) if you want something a little bit stronger.

Post: #5

(04-11-2015 05:30 PM)Capitán Peligroso Wrote:  If you haven't tried melatonin, you definitely should (and get time release if you wake up in the middle of the night and can't get back to sleep). I had to use it four or five times before it worked consistently for me, but you can buy like a years supply for about $5-8 almost anywhere if you live in the states. I also keep some benadryl around the house in case I think the melatonin isn't enough. Benadryl always works for me if I haven't been overusing it. That's the problem with drugs, you develop a tolerance to them very quickly. Melatonin facilitates your natural sleep processes and I've never seen any side effects, other than being a little tired in the morning if I took it too late and didn't get enough sleep.

You may also want to consider getting some kind of sleep aid herbal tea and make sun tea in big batches and drink that starting late in the day. Here is a product from a source that I trust. You could spike that tea with some valerian root (it already has some in it, but it's probably a fairly low concentration) if you want something a little bit stronger.

Thanks. I'm headed to the supermarket right now to pick up some Melatonin. I'll take one of the pills right after the Garcia/Peterson fight is over tonight.

Post: #6

Anything you get OTC in the US is likely weak. Tylenol type of medicine does more harm to your body than lack of sleep. I would recommend going to bed earlier and keep the same schedule.
Ambien is good and works for everyone- but it is Rx only. Good news - you can get it prescribed very easily or simply ask anyone around you if they have a pill. Most people do.
5-HTP is another promising supplement on the market - also widely available. Helps your mind to calm down when it is time to sleep.

Post: #7

I would strongly recommend against ambien or any other Rx sleep med.

You will develop a tolerance, you will up the dosage, and it will get ugly.

It will be 1000x worse than your experience with over the counter sleep aids. Sure, it will work great in the beginning, but then it will eventually become a nightmare.

Over the counter and homeopathic sleep meds/aids are also not a good idea. They are relatively harmless, and will do nowhere near the kind of damage Rx meds can, but they distract you from actually solving the problem of why you are not able to get proper rest.

Your best bet is to focus on exercise, proper nutrition, and limiting both caffeine and alcohol intake.

It is also good to have and maintain a regular sleep schedule.

Do a relaxing non electronic screen activity before sleep - I prefer reading a physical book, other people prefer writing or drawing.

Post: #8

I think the best but hardest solution is to clear your mind before sleep. Bad sleep is usually related to stress. Just raise that all we are is dust in the wind (just like the song) and whats important to you now maybe be laughable in 10 years.

Read a book an ego to sleep when you feel the sleep coming. Don't fight to read on. And don't read stuff that can potentially stress you out or keep goh thinking about it. So no heavy stuff.

Drugs wise, I would say a 0.2 to 1 mg of melotonin. Or in strong cases some Valium (diazepam) the last one can be addictive be careful with it. Its a painkiller and musclerelaxer. It's probably a prescription drug in the US ( it should be )

have a alcoholic drinkbbeofr sleep @beer, one glass of wine ercx nd muds

Most important is to relax. I used to the a worrier too. Become indifferent, it does wonders for your sleep.

Post: #9

Man, I have this problem myself. I can't sleep for shit. I take ZzzQuil




I'm not sure if its the best thing out there. But after 15 minutes or so I knock out, but its gotten to the point that I use it everyday, but I do have a long sleep though.

Post: #10

Avoid drugs. They don't really help in the long run. Focus on practicing proper sleep hygiene. No caffeine after 3pm (noon if you're really sensitive). No electronics in your bed room. The exception is a phone for an alarm clock face down and in airplane mode. Heavy curtains drawn. No screens of any kind 2 hours before bed time. Clean sheets, comfortable mattress, good pillows, etc.

If you really want to get serious get a countdown timer rather than alarm clock. Set it for 8 1/2 hours, read for 10-15 minutes and then fall asleep. If you have to get up at 7am, you better be in bed at 10:30pm the night before.

Post: #11

Regarding medicines... long term use of these has now been linked to dementia later in life.

Avoid alcohol. Reduce caffeine or cut it off before 2pm.

Look into light therapy (lamp in the AM when you wake up).

Wear a sleep mask and ear plugs.

Exercise.

Don't use glowing screens/devices close to bed time.

Post: #12

I've been a pretty ordinary sleeper since being a teenager and at times has been a major detriment to my life. Fortunately I'm pretty happy with 6 hours and not one of those people who wants at least 8 to be civil.

Regular routines are important and many of the things mentioned above are vital. Limit alcohol, caffeine and digital devices before bed or in the bedroom.

I'm a shift worker however so getting a routine is nigh on impossible.

I use valerian, a herbal sleeping aid that has helped.

When I really need to change by body clock, say from a run of late shifts and days off to a new start with very early starts, Restavit, a over the counter tablet really helps.

I have half a tablet and use it sparingly, usually takes me 4 to 5 months to use a packet.

Post: #13

Roosh had a great post about sleep on rooshv.com. Here's the link:

http://www.rooshv.com/how-light-therapy-...sleep-back

Post: #14

I've used Melatonin pills and different sleep aids which are just the same drug as Benadryl: Diphenhydramine.

Both of them work best if you take them about 2 hours before you want to go to bed.

They don't knock you out in a drugged way, they just make sleeping easier when you turn out the lights and close your eyes.

Post: #15

Don't take prescription sleep aids even zzqyuil. Those drugs have all sorts of funny business going on.

Try taking this before bed:
https://www.cellucor.com/products/4-zma

It's ZMA with added melatonin and GABA powder. Take it right before bed. You will have about 15-30 minutes where you will feel drowsy. Don't fight it and let yourself fall asleep. If it works and you like it you can get ZMA, melatonin, and GABA powder separately which makes it a lot cheaper.

Also is your bed comfortable? Uncomfortable beds tend to keep me awake longer and give me worse sleeps.

Post: #16

Merenguero,

Long-term reliance on sleeping pills is a terrible idea. As you are currently experiencing, you develop tolerance, and need ever larger doses or additional types of medication, and eventually (sooner for some people and later for others) this starts to significantly affect your brain and your general health. Many lives have been ruined in just that way. Do not go down that path!

The first half of this post that I made a week ago (and which I am planning to turn into a thread) contains the best summary of what I think is essential to getting good restorative sleep on a regular basis. If you follow these simple sleep hygiene steps, you will be getting the best sleep of your life night in night out, and without any medications.

In your case, since you have relied on sleeping pills for so long, I think step #1 (bright light therapy) should not be merely "strongly considered" but should actually be done. You can read the testimony of guys on the bright light therapy thread, and you can read Roosh's recent post that someone linked to upthread.

(04-05-2015 11:09 AM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  A few things.

The main thing you need to do is to maximize the benefits of the sleep you are getting. That is the single most important factor in being able to cope with mental fatigue and keep your health intact. To that end:

1. Strongly consider using bright light therapy to regularize and deepen your sleep. You can read about it in this thread:

/thread-39799.html

One thing that is common to guys who do a lot of mental work is that they sometimes have trouble turning it off and falling asleep. That is in particular something light therapy takes care of -- it more or less guarantees correct and timely sleep induction.

2. (This goes hand in hand with #1) Make sure your sleeping schedule is highly regular. You should be getting up and going to bed at very nearly the same times every day, including weekends. Do not make the mistake -- all too common to guys who work hard during the week -- of oversleeping on weekends and throwing your rhythm off. Using a light box (see #1) will help establish a very regular schedule, and also improve and deepen the sleep you are getting.

3. DO NOT ABUSE CAFFEINE. I cannot emphasize this strongly enough. Guys who do a lot of mental work make the mistake of leaning on caffeine to get them through the day, and this messes with your sleep and makes you more not less tired on average and over time.

You should not be drinking more than one cup of coffee a day, always in the first half of your day (never late) and never on an empty stomach. One cup after breakfast or after lunch is fine; do not exceed that.

4. Do not abuse alcohol, and other drugs. Forget about nootropics, you don't want to mess with that stuff. Keep your system clean and your body and brain will thank you over time.

5. Download the free utility f.lux and install it on all your devices at home and at work. You don't want to be staring into blue light monitors after dark, this will take care of that. Keeping f.lux on incandescent setting throughout the day (not just at night) will also relieve some of your eye strain.

https://justgetflux.com/

Post: #17

FWIW I have used Melatonin and Diphenhydramine for years.

I have never "developed a tolerance" nor "upped my dosage" and they still work just fine for me. I do not use them every night but many nights a week without a doubt.

I have always had the problem of staying up too late ever since around age 11, my body seems to run on a 30 hour clock. These things have been a life saver for me.

The flip side is of course diet and exercise and cutting back caffeine.

Try going cold turkey on coffee for a while, or at least just having 1 cup a day in the morning and nothing more.

Post: #18

(04-12-2015 09:49 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  FWIW I have used Melatonin and Diphenhydramine for years.

I have never "developed a tolerance" nor "upped my dosage" and they still work just fine for me. I do not use them every night but many nights a week without a doubt.

You can get away with almost anything when you are still relatively young, but that changes as you get a little older and your body becomes less efficient at metabolizing and clearing various substances. It's not a good idea for the longer term.

And of course there are exceptions to every rule. Keith Richards seems to have done OK with heroin through his 70s or so, but that does not make it a good example to follow.

Post: #19

http://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddisalvo...ntia-risk/

Popular non-prescription and prescription medications, including the active ingredient in Benadryl, have been linked to increased risk of developing dementia by a study published in a top-tier medical journal.

According to researchers publishing in JAMA Internal Medicine, the risk is most associated with long-term use of four common meds:

Diphenhydramine – an over-the-counter antihistamine used to treat allergies and aid sleep. Benadryl is the most common brand, but this drug is in several brands of allergy and sleep-inducing meds, including Nytol.
Chlorpheniramine – an over-the-counter antihistamine used to treat allergies. Chlor-Trimeton is the most common brand.
Oxybutynin – a prescription medication used to control over-active bladder conditions.
Doxepin – an older prescription antidepressant (from a class of meds called tricylic antidepressants). Sinequan is the most common brand.
The study followed 3,434 people over the age of 65 for seven years. None of the participants showed signs of dementia at the start of the study period. During the seven years, almost 800 of the participants developed dementia (637 developed Alzheimer’s disease; the rest were afflicted with other forms of dementia). After controlling for a range of other factors, the researchers were able to link heightened risk of dementia to a daily dose of the four medications.

Post: #20

(04-12-2015 09:58 AM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

(04-12-2015 09:49 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  FWIW I have used Melatonin and Diphenhydramine for years.

I have never "developed a tolerance" nor "upped my dosage" and they still work just fine for me. I do not use them every night but many nights a week without a doubt.

You can get away with almost anything when you are still relatively young, but that changes as you get a little older and your body becomes less efficient at metabolizing and clearing various substances. It's not a good idea for the longer term.

And of course there are exceptions to every rule. Keith Richards seems to have done OK with heroin through his 70s or so, but that does not make it a good example to follow.

Good point I am still in my 20s.

I think what Keith did was make his body inhospitable to diseases. He sanitized himself inside-out basically. Now he can only be killed by blunt trauma.

Post: #21

(04-12-2015 09:49 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  FWIW I have used Melatonin and Diphenhydramine for years.

I have never "developed a tolerance" nor "upped my dosage" and they still work just fine for me. I do not use them every night but many nights a week without a doubt.

I have always had the problem of staying up too late ever since around age 11, my body seems to run on a 30 hour clock. These things have been a life saver for me.

This is exactly how I felt until about six days ago. If I did develop a tolerance to the Simply Sleep pills, I find it strange that it took me so long to do so. I tried melatonin last night and slept pretty well, but not great. Hopefully, it works better during the next few days. Thankfully, I have a really light schedule between now and when I leave for the Mayweather fight, so I have plenty of time to sleep. One obvious effect of the sleep problems I have had is lower testosterone levels. I think that my levels were extremely high, basically off the charts, naturally before my sleep problems increased about three years ago. I was tested in October 2014 and total test was 556, which is in the normal range, but kind of the low end of the normal range for my age. I really doubt any competent doctor would give me a prescription for TRT with those levels. With the sleep aids and increased weight training, as recently as last week, I felt almost 100% and was thinking there was no point to even having my testosterone levels checked again, because I was feeling so well. Then this happened. As long as I can sleep, I should be fine. Hopefully the melatonin works for me.

Post: #22

Surprised no one has mentioned Cetirizine aka Zyrtec. I took it for itching and eczema and I notice it made me drowsy. FWIW it did cleared my eczema, and put me to sleep. When I took it with melatonin it was lights out, and that was in the middle of the day.

Post: #23

If the prospect of irreversible mental decline is not worrisome, I have heard anecdotal reports of Diphenhydramine causing weight gain (fat).

"In today's "always on," high-stress world, it has become commonplace to turn to over-the-counter sleep aids for a little help with drifting off into dreamland at night. However, that habit, if made a consistent one, could lead to potentially serious damage when it comes to ones mental health.

A new study zeroing in on anticholinergic drugs -- a category that includes common non-prescription sleeping aids and antihistamines like Benadryl -- found that the long-term use of such medications in higher doses can lead to an increased risk of developing dementia, including Alzheimer's disease, in the future. It's the first study of its kind to prove this dose-response effect, meaning that the higher, cumulative consumption of the drug, the higher the likelihood of a person developing dementia later in life. It's also the first to suggest that this dementia risk may persist -- and be irreversible -- even years after people have stopped taking these drugs. The study was published in JAMA Internal Medicine in late January."

Post: #24

Merenguero, I'm not going to keep haranguing you with advice you don't want, but let me just say again: these things work until they don't, and they give you more and more problems once you are no longer very young. You really don't want to get on the treadmill of adding more meds that "work" for a while then you have more problems and so on.

I want to emphasize that I don't have some weird moral problem with pills; if there was a pill you could take that would give you great sleep every night and never give you any problems, I'd be all for it. If there was a shortcut that really worked for this stuff (like there is for some other things: you get pneumonia, you take an antibiotic, it's gone), that would be wonderful. Unfortunately, there is no such thing for the time being. These medications are crude and nasty and have all kinds of long-term effects, and the older you get the more problems you have with them.

The habits you have do adopt to get good regular sleep are not nearly as onerous as they might seem, and I think you should be able to fit them into your lifestyle. And the benefits of having good deep restorative sleep every night, including for your testosterone levels and libido, especially as you get older, really cannot be exaggerated. If I were you, I'd get off the sleep meds treadmill sooner rather than later and see how well you can do by adopting some of these habits. The effects of bright light therapy, in particular, are usually felt within days so you will find out quickly how well it's working for you.

That's it -- I'm going to cease and desist from any from any further unsolicited advice in this thread.

Post: #25

There is science behind the bright light therapy.
I have heard of old people getting their sleep on track by using the light briefly in the morning. It is profound and resets your internal clock.

What do you think Jet Lag is based on ? We all have an internal clock but it can be re-set and adjusted (or F'd up through caffeine, stress, glowing screens in bed, alcohol, chemicals, sugar, MSG, lack of exercise, etc.)