Post: #1

Since Kratom has been a recent topic on ROK, I thought I'd post up my experience with it. I found out about Kratom a few years ago and purchased some from an online source. I was looking for an alternative to prescription opiates for pain relief and energy and Kraton fit the bill. I used Kraton for a for a few months and it was working very well for me. It gave me energy to do lawn work and helped me get some projects done around my house. Everything seemed great. I had recently come off of a prolonged Testosterone cycle a few months earlier and wanted to get my Testosterone levels checked to see where they normalized. So, I went to my Primary Care Physician for a routine physical and had a blood test. When the results came in, everything was normal except my liver enzymes were crazy high. Normal is around 0-40 for this panel. Mine were at 800!

I stopped taking all supplements except Kratom and no alcohol whatsoever and was re-tested in a week or so. My levels then came back at 1200! I was then sent to a Gastroenterologist who sent me to a liver specialist at Johns Hopkins. I had a liver biopsy which showed mild hepatatic reactivity. Kratom was the last thing I let go of because it worked for me, and after all, it was just some crushed up leaves.

After I stopped Kratom my enzyme levels returned to normal. All this was a year and a half ago. I wanted to see if maybe the bad experience I had with Kratom was the supplier or the strain I had. So I tried some Kraton last week from a different supplier and a different strain. 10 grams over two days in two servings. Then a blood test after the two servings. I figured if there was a problem that my enzymes would be marginally high like around 50 or so. But my enzymes came in at an incredible 400! For me Kratom is extremely toxic and I never would have known had I not went in for a blood test. Other than fatigue during the day after my initial experience with Kraton, I had no idea anything was wrong. So if you are using Kratom, get your blood work done, it can save your liver and your life.

Post: #2

I've heard some super sketch dangers of it being addictive as well, can anyone attest to that?

Post: #3

Do you have a medical report you can scan and post? With your name blurred out, of course.

Post: #4

I've used kratom without getting addicted, but it acts on the opioid receptors and can lead to physical withdrawal with long term use.

Post: #5

(04-14-2015 05:18 PM)Sonoma Wrote:  I've heard some super sketch dangers of it being addictive as well, can anyone attest to that?

Erowid.org Wrote:Liver Toxicity / Hepatotoxicity / Hepatitis.
A small number of kratom experience reports describe hepatitis and/or hepatotoxic symptoms. This effect has also been reported in the medical literature (Kapp et al. 2011). Most of these reports of liver-health issues involve kratom extracts rather than unenhanced dried leaves. It is unknown if these are attributable to kratom alkaloids, extract-production byproducts, or other contaminants.

Habituation / Addiction.
Kratom is considered addictive; reports of physical and psychological dependence, tolerance, and physical withdrawal symptoms are prevalent, though not universal, in experience reports. Taking kratom daily can result in physical dependence. In such instances, symptoms similar to those of opioid withdrawal usually begin 18-24 hours after the last dose and continue for 1-14 days.

I've had my fun with Kratom. I'd rather shoot heroin like a real man.

Edit: I understand that there are bills to pay. However, I have to take issue with hocking potentially dangerous products on a trusting audience. I assume most people do not know about Erowid.org, and don't know much about drugs and entheogens in general. Fortunately, no one got hurt here and the issue was solved. To anyone who is thinking of taking something please read up before you try.

Post: #6

I dunno why people think they can take ANY drug long term on a frequent basis and have no side effects. Yeah I read that article from Good Looking Loser about "the kratom lifestyle" but I don't believe it. It's a drug, and an opiod at that. Nothing good can come of basically taking oxy/vicodin-lite on a daily basis. You'll shoot up your tolerance (you were taking 10g, normal effective dose for a beginner is 3-4g), get physically addicted and have severe side effects. As some recreational drug that you take on some day and have at least 4-5 days pause inbetween your next intake, it's probably ok, but the daily usage of it like it's coffee is not the smartest idea.

Post: #7

(04-14-2015 07:01 PM)INegUThenLol Wrote:  I dunno why people think they can take ANY drug long term on a frequent basis and have no side effects. Yeah I read that article from Good Looking Loser about "the kratom lifestyle" but I don't believe it. It's a drug, and an opiod at that. Nothing good can come of basically taking oxy/vicodin-lite on a daily basis. You'll shoot up your tolerance (you were taking 10g, normal effective dose for a beginner is 3-4g), get physically addicted and have severe side effects. As some recreational drug that you take on some day and have at least 4-5 days pause inbetween your next intake, it's probably ok, but the daily usage of it like it's coffee is not the smartest idea.

^Agreed. I've found it most effective on limiting it to days where you want to relax from a stressful week. I've also had some success as a hangover remedy if you make it as a tea, and the odd day you want to absolutely kill it at the gym (if you have a "fast" strain). I would say i average about one dosage (3-4g) every two/three weeks. Will look into getting a blood sample in the next month or two with results.

Post: #8

I went from taking Kratom every 2 weeks or for most of 2014, to ~3 times a week this year, and I'm concerned about some Low-T symptoms I've been having for multiple days in a row when I go off of it.

I moved across the country right around new years, dealing with various issues around that. I figured Kratom was a fairly harmless, coffee-ish vice since the effect when you are on it is so subtle, akin to coffee. So I figured I'd kick it up a notch and burn more often.

But I've also noticed my energy levels, sleep, and mood getting really out of wack. Even sex drive just not there. I thought for sure I had low T. I got my T levels checked last year and I was on the lower end (600, 31 y/o). I got on HCG but I moved across the country right after my Rx ran out at the end of the year and haven't renewed.

I went in to a TRT clinic to get checked out, thinking for sure my levels had taken a hit post-HCG was cause of my symptoms. Turns out I came in at 800. And that's being off HCG cold turkey for 4 months, no boosters or aids of any kind, just slightly cleaner diet, standing desk, and adding back in barbell squats & deadlifts to my lifting...

I definitely need to do a full bloodwork panel per the risks mentioned by OP. But liver issues aside - the inconsistent energy and shitty moods on off days, if Kratom is the cause - is not worth it. I was so certain I was going to come in with low T based on how I've been feeling. I just can't think of anything else that would be causing this.

Not gonna lie, this sucks if Kratom is the indeed the culprit. I found myself cutting back significantly on drinking. Adderall too- I used to pop a 5 mg once or twice a week when I got stuck and needed to get shit done, cut that to once a month, if that. And definitely seemed to help my mood/stress levels post-move.

Post: #9

Damn. I just ordered more.

The stuff hasn't seemed to affect my T-levels in any noticeable way but I'd rather not take the risk.

Blood panels are in order for sure. Thanks for posting guys.

Post: #10

I think some bodies just aren't right to handle drugs. I have tried a lot of different things that just made me feel like complete shit, Kratom being one of them. My body doesn't respond well to some pain killers either. Even Adderall makes me feel off if I use it more than once in a while. Heavy drinking also caused my kidneys to function poorly a few years ago. If I drink too much over a long period of time I feel strung out and depleted. On the other hand I know guys who can run marathons drunk.

Instead of using drugs for energy I started taking optimized folate after MikeCF talked about it in a blog post and it has done wonders.

Post: #11

I've not had positive experiences with Kratom. I do get the gentle buzz and elevated energy that many describe as the positive effects they seek from using the substance. However about an hour or two after ingestion I am beset with significant nausea and a rise in body temperature with associated sweating. I've reevaluated Kratom a few times to the same result.

I experience fever and nausea from opioid drugs as well, although less severe. These may be related, I don't know enough about chemistry/biology to make more then a guess about it. In summary I don't personally consider the high worth the crash. As in all things, YMMV.

Post: #12

(04-14-2015 08:47 PM)h3ltrsk3ltr Wrote:  The stuff hasn't seemed to affect my T-levels in any noticeable way but I'd rather not take the risk.

My T levels are actually up to 800 from 600 - but I expected them to be way down sub 500 based on how I've been feeling. So not sure what's going on. I've been taking phenibut too on weekends, so that could be a factor as well. Going to cut back a bit and monitor closely.

Post: #13

I just wanted to give everyone the heads up on this. It sucks because Kratom really worked well for me. But it crushes my liver. I still have the test results from awhile back when my enzymes were at 1200 or so. My primary care physician's office called Monday morning with the new, high results and told me to come in to pick up a referral for a sonogram. I don't need the sonogram because I already had one the first time when the enzymes were high. But, when a doctor receives results like this they are obviously concerned.

I was straight with my doctor and told him why I needed the Liver panel done. I'll try to post up a copy of the blood test results with my personal info redacted. It's against my better judgment posting up something that personal in this day and age because of other info associated with it. But it's important enough to me to help others be safe that I consider it.

Just be safe and get in the habit of getting blood work done regularly. Once or twice a year at least.

Post: #14

(04-15-2015 11:20 PM)Uzisuicide Wrote:  I just wanted to give everyone the heads up on this. It sucks because Kratom really worked well for me. But it crushes my liver. I still have the test results from awhile back when my enzymes were at 1200 or so. My primary care physician's office called Monday morning with the new, high results and told me to come in to pick up a referral for a sonogram. I don't need the sonogram because I already had one the first time when the enzymes were high. But, when a doctor receives results like this they are obviously concerned.

I was straight with my doctor and told him why I needed the Liver panel done. I'll try to post up a copy of the blood test results with my personal info redacted. It's against my better judgment posting up something that personal in this day and age because of other info associated with it. But it's important enough to me to help others be safe that I consider it.

Just be safe and get in the habit of getting blood work done regularly. Once or twice a year at least.

I am curious if everyone or just certain people have these liver problems with Kratom. I was considering trying it on an as needed basis but now I am concerned myself.

Are your enzymes back to normal?

Post: #15

(04-29-2015 10:48 PM)reco2100 Wrote:  

(04-15-2015 11:20 PM)Uzisuicide Wrote:  I just wanted to give everyone the heads up on this. It sucks because Kratom really worked well for me. But it crushes my liver. I still have the test results from awhile back when my enzymes were at 1200 or so. My primary care physician's office called Monday morning with the new, high results and told me to come in to pick up a referral for a sonogram. I don't need the sonogram because I already had one the first time when the enzymes were high. But, when a doctor receives results like this they are obviously concerned.

I was straight with my doctor and told him why I needed the Liver panel done. I'll try to post up a copy of the blood test results with my personal info redacted. It's against my better judgment posting up something that personal in this day and age because of other info associated with it. But it's important enough to me to help others be safe that I consider it.

Just be safe and get in the habit of getting blood work done regularly. Once or twice a year at least.

I am curious if everyone or just certain people have these liver problems with Kratom. I was considering trying it on an as needed basis but now I am concerned myself.

Are your enzymes back to normal?

I had a full panel done when in the midst of a 8-12g/day habit. No issues. From all of my reading elevated liver enzymes are very rare. Sub 10% of daily users. But if you get it, you'll always get from Kratom. And it will alway go away when you end usage.

Post: #16

(04-15-2015 03:01 PM)Mikan Wrote:  I've not had positive experiences with Kratom. I do get the gentle buzz and elevated energy that many describe as the positive effects they seek from using the substance. However about an hour or two after ingestion I am beset with significant nausea and a rise in body temperature with associated sweating. I've reevaluated Kratom a few times to the same result.

I experience fever and nausea from opioid drugs as well, although less severe. These may be related, I don't know enough about chemistry/biology to make more then a guess about it. In summary I don't personally consider the high worth the crash. As in all things, YMMV.

If you're getting nausea, you're taking too much bro.

You're probably a hyper-responder. Start with a 2 grams, or less.

Post: #17

I've never even heard of this stuff till reading this thread.

I suspect that if your ancestors have chewed this stuff for 1000s of years, you'll be genetically disposed to handle it.

If they haven't...well, like some Asians and alcohol...you're going to have a problem

Post: #18

Wanted to share my Kratom experience with you guys and see about some other guys experiences.

After reading and researching Kratom for over a year I finally decided to give it a try. I ordered a few different strains, enough for a 1-2 week supply just to try it out.

It was a weird experience.

I took a different strain everyday for a little over a week. It was probably the most unproductive week I ever experienced, I hardly left the house, I ate like shit and slept through half the day when I could finally fall asleep in the wee hours of the morning. I woke up with horrible hangovers and had terrible headaches throughout the day, not to mention the extreme thirst.

The one thing I did notice it was good for was focus, though it wasn't much use to me at the time, I did get a ton of research done on subjects I was planning on pursuing.

A few weeks ago I got an email offer with a pretty good discount for the strain I actually enjoyed the most so I decided to stock up on it. Bad idea. It just put me right back into the bad habits of my prior experience with it.

I'm thinking this stuff just isn't for me. The horrible after effects far outweigh the positive effects for me.

Anyone with a similar experience?

Post: #19

Wow.

Looks like no one on the forum had a good experience.

Anyone else want to share?

Post: #20

I've ordered the Starter pack from HappyHippoHerbals, and should be with me within 8-14 days.

I'll give an update after I've had my trial period with it.

I'll be using Chris from Good Looking Losers beginner guide to using Kratom.

Post: #21

I wouldn't trust Kratom or Chris. Best to just stay away from that shit, and not worry about any long term side effects such as liver damage.

Post: #22

(01-02-2016 09:29 PM)memcpy Wrote:  I wouldn't trust Kratom or Chris. Best to just stay away from that shit, and not worry about any long term side effects such as liver damage.

Why not?

Bold statements.

Post: #23

Don't be doing Kratom without being on the Wim Hof breathing course!

Post: #24

(01-02-2016 09:29 PM)memcpy Wrote:  I wouldn't trust Kratom or Chris. Best to just stay away from that shit, and not worry about any long term side effects such as liver damage.

I personally like Chris and GLL guys, all the information I've received from there has helped me a lot. The skin-care guide turned me from a vampire to a normal human being as well as the tanning section.

At the end of the day it will not kill me and if it can give me that edge and not have some kind of averse effect on my body I'm all up for trying it.

Victor Pride has also wrote about it and linked to the same site praising the quality and the benefits he has received from using it.

(01-03-2016 02:17 AM)Sooth Wrote:  Don't be doing Kratom without being on the Wim Hof breathing course!

I've been doing this for the last few days, Mike from D&P first got me on to him with his pod-cast. A truly inspirational man, I can't fathom the pain he must have been in.

I've been watching the Joe Rogan pod-cast with Wim Hof (There's a 15 minute clip where they go through the exercise itself) and it seems to be working so far.

Post: #25

Kratom is actually a pretty amazing plant. Gives relaxation, focus, and euphoria/energy at the same time. I have seen both sides of the coin.. using long term daily and just occasionally, and like all things moderation definitely prevails.

In my opinion the best effects from the plant come from doses of between 2-4 g's of Bali Kratom. Other strains are too stimulating and interfere with sleep too much, at least if taken at night..

Once or twice a week at most is the sweet spot with kratom. Anything more often than this and you will start to notice the slow creep of negativity effecting your mood adversely on off days. It's very subtle at first and you probably won't notice the side effects for a while, but they definitely exist with prolonged use.

When I was younger I was naive and tried to replace my coffee and alcohol habits with kratom, taking 5-10g a daily for ~6 months. It actually worked wonders in that regard i.e. replaced most of my desire to drink at night and really got me focused and alert in the morning more effectively than caffeine. However, stopping definitely sucked and made for a rough week. After quitting though I was pretty much back to 100% after the first week or so with no long term side effects.

Now I just use it occasionally without issue, as in like a few times per month, never more than twice in a week. Sometimes I also just forget about it for months at a time, but all in all this is a great plant if used responsibly, and I doubt I'll ever forget about it completely.