Post: #1

This is why nice guys and most guys don't get the girl: comfort is NOT attraction. Building rapport and comfort with a girl is NOT the same as building attraction. Attraction is all about creating sexual tension and tension is not comfortable. Think about that for a moment

It took me a long time to really grasp this and I have Krauser to thank for really explaining it. I was being too "nice" with average looking girls with the assumption that I needed to build up their self-esteem. I would do very well with top end girls because the push and sexualization came naturally. But it really doesn't matter the level of the girl, you always have to push to some extent to create attraction. And I know it's a lot harder to push than to pull. But with practice it becomes easier. Of course you have to create some rapport and comfort but if that's all there is then there's no attraction just friendship and we all know where that leads. (The exception is the if the girl is sexual attracted to you from the beginning. She's a Yes girl. Then you can just build some comfort and close.)

Pulling (talking about something she's into etc.) creates rapport and comfort. Pushing (teasing/ challenging) and sexualization creates attraction. As a general rule the more beautiful the girl, the bigger her ego, the more pushing and sexualization I do. But I wasn't do this enough with more average girls and this was the reason I was failing with them while succeeding with higher end girls.

So let's look at a recent example:

I opened a woman in the supermarket with an indirect opener about the cookies she's looking at. We talk about cookies for awhile (pull). I then look into her cart and see a lot of sodas. I told her she must really love her sugar (push). I look her up and down (sexualization) and said, hmmm, well it certainly doesn't show (pull).

In supermarket pickups I always associate the food in the carts with blatant observations about their bodies. I usually bust them on the food while complimenting them on their bodies, a natural push/pull.

Post: #2

This is basic stuff since the days of Mystery.

Comfort + no attraction = friendzone = 90% of guys
Attraction + no comfort = LMR or lay but with buyer's remorse
Attraction + comfort = lay, possibly repeat bang

At any time, feel free to substitute comfort with alcohol. At your pads. These days logistics beat attraction and comfort. It's more important to show up at the right place at the right time.

Post: #3

Ye, I know but reading about something and really understanding it are two different things. It took me awhile as I said. I know a lot of guys with really great logistics than don't get much. Money can easily buy logistics and being in the right place at the right time. But a girl is not going to go home with you if she's not attracted and comfortable with you unless she's really drunk as you seem to be implying...

Most of the guys I have met, including myself, it's the "basic stuff" that's the biggest problem. And it's the same with mastering anything. If you can really master the basics of anything that will be good enough to get you 80% of whatever you want.

Post: #4

(05-17-2015 01:34 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  This is basic stuff since the days of Mystery.

Comfort + no attraction = friendzone = 90% of guys
Attraction + no comfort = LMR or lay but with buyer's remorse
Attraction + comfort = lay, possibly repeat bang

At any time, feel free to substitute comfort with alcohol. At your pads. These days logistics beat attraction and comfort. It's more important to show up at the right place at the right time.

As far as I can tell, a lot of guys don't know the basics.

There's not really a lot of discussion of the basics.

So what is basic, might actually be advanced at this point.

Things like overgaming and calibration don't get a lot of discussion and commentary anymore. It seems every little corner of the pick up/gameosphere reinvents the wheel.

Less and less actual technique gets discussed because of the overall sentiment against "getting nerdy".

WIA

Post: #5

(05-17-2015 01:52 PM)RedParadigm Wrote:  But a girl is not going to go home with you if she's not attracted and comfortable with you unless she's really drunk as you seem to be implying...

You gotta separate this sentence.

One of the old school debates was whether you needed to consciously build comfort and rapport.

After you got her juices flowing by doing the dance
- defanging her from the beginning
- pushing her away
- pulling her close
- calling her on her shit
- getting compliance

Did you need to shift gears and talk about "feelings" or "commonalities" or anything that would bring you towards emotional closeness.

School of thought # 1 was lockstep, you HAD to do this, or you weren't running proper game. You might get the lay, but not the repeat business. You were basically taking advantage of her buying temperature and then getting the logistics to work for you.

School #2, felt that her continued presence means that she'd already developed a level of comfort with you, so switching gears was unnecessary. You could bang and still get the repeat business.

And with modern eyes, or old ones lol, maybe banging a chick out once is an option that guys wish they had because otherwise she forms an attachment. Whether that's needed nowadays is a totally separate question.

WIA

Post: #6

(05-17-2015 06:23 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  As far as I can tell, a lot of guys don't know the basics.

There's not really a lot of discussion of the basics.

So what is basic, might actually be advanced at this point.

Things like overgaming and calibration don't get a lot of discussion and commentary anymore. It seems every little corner of the pick up/gameosphere reinvents the wheel.

Less and less actual technique gets discussed because of the overall sentiment against "getting nerdy".

WIA

Totally agree WIA, sometimes I feel like the "advanced problems" are actually just a spin off of the basics.

Its hard to discuss basics on forums because there will be a lot of beating the dead horse without coming to anything substantial.

WIA, maybe you can rap about overgaming? I think most guys have the wrong idea. Overgaming is NOT too much attraction. Girls can not be too attracted to you, thats BS. IMO it means using gaming techniques that decreases her comfort level with you.

The biggest problem I think is, the basics are not the same with everyone. Here is why:

Some guys have built-in, or passive, comfort and/or attraction (fuck those lucky ones with both )

I have been going out a lot lately, meeting a lot of guys, and seeing guys everywhere get laid, as well as seeing decent guys got laid off, because of this.

You talk to a very attractive guy who is half-decent with girls, and he will have a hard time understand all the techniques for creating attraction (negs, push, DHV, etc.) and he will tell you things like "just be yourself and make the girl comfortable".

That guy has passive attraction. His looks (or fame or lifestyle or sometimes just chemistry) do most of the attraction works for him. He only needs to play comfort and/or escalate to get the lay. If he does too much attraction work, he wastes time and overgame.

On the contrary, most guys have no problem building comfort IMO. Building comfort is easy, but girls dont give half a shit about you and her go to the same classical concert if she isnt attracted to you. This is why the friendzone gets its infamy.

The thing is, comfort cam be substituted with good mood and alcohol. Which is why most of the sphere is only concerned with building attraction and escalation.

But comfort has its place. Guys in her social circle have passive comfort, so he only needs to work on attracting the girl. Thats why most plain couples meet from social circles.

If you ask me, attraction + escalation = gold. There s lots of things you can do without comfort, but good luck getting any without attraction. Likewise, go to the "your biggest game fuck up" and "biggest regret" thread to see what happens when you fail to escalate. We dumbass niggas sometimes get girls jumping in our lap and we be freezing like "shit what do I do?"

I think good game = knowing where you stand in her attraction/comfort threshold and act and escalate accordingly. The good players approach en masse and spit basic game and get laid with the % of girls who dig that game. The great players adapt to each girl.

Quote:Did you need to shift gears and talk about "feelings" or "commonalities" or anything that would bring you towards emotional closeness.

I still have problem identifying the attraction threshold. Its the crossroad where you decide whether or not to shift gears. Working on comfort too soon = friendzone prison, escalating too soon = scare the cat.

Post: #7

I would argue that comfort still has its place in seduction. To me LMR is the very embodiment of attraction + escalation without the comfort. I also am a big believer over gaming is a very real issue. I do pretty well on Tinder and am told fairly regularly that I'm handsome but LMR and over gaming (trying too hard) still plague me more than any other aspect of game. I used to struggle on first dates because I would try and be the guy who is high-energy, telling jokes, speaking louder than normal, and otherwise trying to be an entertaining clown and more often than not the woman would end up being turned off and everything would go to hell. Then I started taking a more lower key approach, sitting back, asking questions, taking a genuine interest in the woman and what resulted was a lot more women agreeing to come home with me after the first date. However, this is where the LMR still rears its ugly head. Once I have a woman on my couch I still feel like I need to push extra hard and in a sense over game them in order to have sex with them. Add to the fact that many of these women have even verbally and directly said 'I just don't feel comfortable with you yet'. They're isolated with me at my place, we're making out, their pussies are like a running faucet but they're not giving it up. They're certainly attracted, I'm escalating the shit out of the moment but they're not comfortable yet.

So I have to respectfully disagree that the combination of attraction + escalation <> gold. At least not in my experience...

Post: #8

(05-17-2015 10:32 PM)OregonToSoCal Wrote:  I would try and be the guy who is high-energy, telling jokes, speaking louder than normal, and otherwise trying to be an entertaining clown and more often than not the woman would end up being turned off and everything would go to hell.

This was basically me, and it comes from insecurity. I literally have lost out on hundreds of women due to what I call 'fat guy game'.

Out of all the fundamentals, for me the hardest one has been 'overgaming' & 'pushing'. This comes from defaulting to 'chasing her' or 'winning her' developed from years and years of blue pill reality. This is also why a lot of guys who are not classic naturals ended up with girls they were not really attracted to.

When naturals say 'be yourself'..what they really mean is 'don't put the pussy on a pedestal' or 'don't think you are not good enough'. Now-a-days, when I game I have actively remind myself to 'be cool' and focusing on qualifying the chick instead of attracting and pulling.

Game is like any other sport. If you lose your confidence, everything seems like a mountain. If you achieve success after success, you believe in yourself and your true worth and exude confidence and keep getting better quality.

Post: #9

(05-18-2015 01:04 AM)LAX Wrote:  ...

When naturals say 'be yourself'..what they really mean is 'don't put the pussy on a pedestal' or 'don't think you are not good enough'...

I've always interpreted it more as "be me" - well meaning perhaps, but obviously pointless.
I think a lot of naturals are a tad solipsistic in that area, since they've never actually had to do any kind of introspection and self improvement in order to get laid consistently (though a minority might have arrived at a point in life where they do that anyway for various reasons that may or may not be related to women) .

Post: #10

I still make the mistake of spending too much time in the comfort building part, a one way ticket to the friendzone. I think if a girl is really hot, there is no way a man is just going to build comfort all day long. Maybe being friendly is maybe a symptom that the girl isnt that hot. Guess direct game erases that problem.

Post: #11

Did Mystery update or revise the Mystery Method or is this classic book still worth the read?

Post: #12

(05-18-2015 03:37 PM)N°6 Wrote:  Did Mystery update or revise the Mystery Method or is this classic book still worth the read?

I wouldn't say it's worth it with all the material out there now. There's too much misinformation and nonsense "tactics" to sift through. For me, when I first read Mystery Method back in around 2009, I think it was more about the shock value and opening my eyes to the fact that it was possible to improve my skill with women. The peacocking and clown game didn't really work so much.

Post: #13

Overthinking attraction can cause you problems.
Attraction is 80% Emotion and 20% Communication

Concepts like push/pull are only 2 aspects of creating real emotions
that women respond to. Like single notes on a keyboard.

Think about your favorite song. That is attraction.

How did the artist know how to do that? The good ones
feel the emotion first and then put that emotion into words
and melody.

You then hear the song and feel the same emotions
the artist wants to communicate. That's your job when
creating "attraction" for women.

It's also the reason singers do well with women.

Post: #14

Lots of good stuff here guys. Not much that I can add.

Post: #15

Overgaming to me is 1 joke too far.

I over game for two reasons
- So full of myself and the high of "the dance"/running in attraction mode
- Unsure of when the girl hooks.

Case #1 is what most guys are afraid, and they end up trying to tone it down and go to "don't fuck it up" mode. That's very much an internal temperature thing, and if you're looking for one night stands or rapid sex, and you aren't ever getting blown out, you're playing it TOO safe.

Case #2 is more likely what's going on.

The inherent weakness of trying to bed a woman is relying on her non-existent verbal feed back and confusing non-verbal feedback.
- if you fish for it, that comes off as weak
- if you ignore it, you could end up in jail or worse

What people call "vibe" is the unconscious downshift and "less" gaming that comes with experience. Not to get too out there, but you turn off the high octane material, because YOU'RE satisfied that she's attracted.

That satisfaction that you feel has little basis in objective and describable reality. Again, this is to the women's advantage. She has so little power, ambiguity is her only weapon to keep out the truest of the true, or to use as a cudgel if things go horribly wrong.

In practice, you either correctly interpret her body language, or purposefully misinterpret her body language, participation/interaction, and continued presence as positive.

This is all within reason, and I contemplate this back and forth is happening at the club or pub during the initial attraction phase.

This does NOT happen when you're in the car on the way to your spot.
Or on her couch at her spot.

If you got a chick at your place (say a zero date bang situation, or a dinner @ your house 2nd/3rd meeting situation), and she's not with the program in terms of getting amorous at the start - cut her off.

Last Minute Resistance can be conquered, First Minute Resistance while you have her isolated is only for guys who like the dance. That's one of those areas where she's comfortable and attractive enough to go to the sex location, but has her mind made up that she's not making out, much less fucking. Situation like that, where you can't even do the 2 steps forward and 1 step back is where you really sit back and play the dread/competition game, more so than the active, I can figure out your psychology and push button games.

Getting off track here.

This "when to chill versus when to press on" is one of those weird areas of game that you only get if you've done it.

So you rely less on this sort of feedback and lead with your own impressions.

In the sales context, if you have a stronger personality than the prospect, and the prospect likes you - you can change and influence their mood with your own. Changing the mood is easier than changing the mind.

Or as my ex would say, "I get really excited, and when I get excited, they get excited and then they buy".

So when you go from basic understanding to intermediate, you let go of the material. When you go from intermediate to advanced understanding of game, you let go of the time table/structure.

With solid experience, that feeling you get when you know "it's on" comes faster and earlier.

Couple that with experience, with options, and now with higher standards - you change up to see how she changes up. If her change is one that you like, she passes your test. If she goes in the wrong direction, you get rid of her. And as you can surmise, when a girl feel like she's on the spot, and you withdraw, she might fight harder to keep you interested.

Keep in mind, she thinks she's doing the same thing, consciously or unconsciously. Game is just leveling the playing field, or rather putting you on the field as a player not a pawn. She's been toying with your emotions and the emotions of the hundreds of men that she comes into contact with for at least a decade, if not two. Be ruthless in trying to get her on your team.

In terms of practical advice, you can't adopt a intermediate/advanced understanding of game, until you actually have the experience.

"I've been here before, and now she's getting predictable, because girls that really dig me act the same way".

What you can do rather is when you feel like you're in a good place, you change the tone/mood/subject and reward her when she adopts.

So typical situation, where's she's open to conversation, and you've had a little bit of witty repartee, where you push her away and reel her back in...say something like

"Let me take you seriously for a second...."

and then you ask a question about a different topic, or you tell a story.

It the topic/question/story can actually be in the same vein as whatever your material as before, but you're looking for her acquiescence/compliance to changing it up a bit.

So you get a two-fer, you continue with attraction material, but you also get a emotional/compliance check.

This is different than asking
"are you okay, are you having a good time"
or
trying to interpret a flip of her hair or twinkle of her nose as a sign of interest/disinterest.

You're leading the interaction, signalling, and basically telling her that I'm going to take you on an emotional journey.

It sounds more complex than it is, but if you watch people that are good with people - they do that all the time. They announce to the audience that a change is coming, and then they change, and the audience follows along.

I have the structure of the pick up down. Now I draw inspiration from music, literature, sermons, sales presentations, opening and closing statements, film, etc. Game is much bigger than bagging women.

I'd go off on a rant here about how to spot bad pick up gurus, but to what end? All of them give you the basic blue print. But if they aren't delving into how to make a girl feel something other than horny or submissive - dude doesn't get it.

WIA

(05-17-2015 08:09 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

(05-17-2015 06:23 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  As far as I can tell, a lot of guys don't know the basics.

There's not really a lot of discussion of the basics.

So what is basic, might actually be advanced at this point.

Things like overgaming and calibration don't get a lot of discussion and commentary anymore. It seems every little corner of the pick up/gameosphere reinvents the wheel.

Less and less actual technique gets discussed because of the overall sentiment against "getting nerdy".

WIA

Totally agree WIA, sometimes I feel like the "advanced problems" are actually just a spin off of the basics.

Its hard to discuss basics on forums because there will be a lot of beating the dead horse without coming to anything substantial.

WIA, maybe you can rap about overgaming? I think most guys have the wrong idea. Overgaming is NOT too much attraction. Girls can not be too attracted to you, thats BS. IMO it means using gaming techniques that decreases her comfort level with you.

The biggest problem I think is, the basics are not the same with everyone. Here is why:

Some guys have built-in, or passive, comfort and/or attraction (fuck those lucky ones with both )

I have been going out a lot lately, meeting a lot of guys, and seeing guys everywhere get laid, as well as seeing decent guys got laid off, because of this.

You talk to a very attractive guy who is half-decent with girls, and he will have a hard time understand all the techniques for creating attraction (negs, push, DHV, etc.) and he will tell you things like "just be yourself and make the girl comfortable".

That guy has passive attraction. His looks (or fame or lifestyle or sometimes just chemistry) do most of the attraction works for him. He only needs to play comfort and/or escalate to get the lay. If he does too much attraction work, he wastes time and overgame.

On the contrary, most guys have no problem building comfort IMO. Building comfort is easy, but girls dont give half a shit about you and her go to the same classical concert if she isnt attracted to you. This is why the friendzone gets its infamy.

The thing is, comfort cam be substituted with good mood and alcohol. Which is why most of the sphere is only concerned with building attraction and escalation.

But comfort has its place. Guys in her social circle have passive comfort, so he only needs to work on attracting the girl. Thats why most plain couples meet from social circles.

If you ask me, attraction + escalation = gold. There s lots of things you can do without comfort, but good luck getting any without attraction. Likewise, go to the "your biggest game fuck up" and "biggest regret" thread to see what happens when you fail to escalate. We dumbass niggas sometimes get girls jumping in our lap and we be freezing like "shit what do I do?"

I think good game = knowing where you stand in her attraction/comfort threshold and act and escalate accordingly. The good players approach en masse and spit basic game and get laid with the % of girls who dig that game. The great players adapt to each girl.

Quote:Did you need to shift gears and talk about "feelings" or "commonalities" or anything that would bring you towards emotional closeness.

I still have problem identifying the attraction threshold. Its the crossroad where you decide whether or not to shift gears. Working on comfort too soon = friendzone prison, escalating too soon = scare the cat.

Post: #16

(05-17-2015 01:26 PM)RedParadigm Wrote:  Pushing (teasing/ challenging) and sexualization creates attraction.

This is exactly what it comes down to. Comfort is nice - literally - just nice. That's it. It provides no challenge. That's where "nice" guys originate. Being "nice" without a "challenge" is the biggest mistake a guy trying to "gain attraction" can make.

The irony is that when you ask a girl what they want they will say, "a guy who is nice and comforting" ---- but the catch is they want that from a guy who challenges them!.

Post: #17

(05-19-2015 09:50 AM)CH-Toronto Wrote:  

(05-17-2015 01:26 PM)RedParadigm Wrote:  Pushing (teasing/ challenging) and sexualization creates attraction.

This is exactly what it comes down to. Comfort is nice - literally - just nice. That's it. It provides no challenge. That's where "nice" guys originate. Being "nice" without a "challenge" is the biggest mistake a guy trying to "gain attraction" can make.

The irony is that when you ask a girl what they want they will say, "a guy who is nice and comforting" ---- but the catch is they want that from a guy who challenges them!.

I think you guys are missing it. C&R from back in the day wasn't about fluffing up pillows and grabbing her a cup of hot cocoa.

Comfort in the game sense is getting her comfortable with the idea of fucking you.

Not being nice.

Rapport - you can talk about anything, she's not editing herself, she's flowing free. Conversation is not forced, you aren't doing the 90/10 split.

Comfort - She's attracted, she'll get wet in a bit, but is she good with the idea that YOU will be fucking her. Is she comfortable with that idea.

Most of this pua lingo has actual technical meaning that's different than everyday English.

WIA

Post: #18

Actually they do like nice guys. When I am nice girls love me. They have a great time talking, dancing, and hanging out with me! They just don't find me sexual attractive and want to fuck me. So they are telling the truth

Post: #19

(05-19-2015 10:26 AM)RedParadigm Wrote:  Actually they do like nice guys. When I am nice girls love me. They have a great time talking, dancing, and hanging out with me! They just don't find me sexual attractive and want to fuck me. So they are telling the truth

Post: #20

@WIA

Quote:If you got a chick at your place (say a zero date bang situation, or a dinner @ your house 2nd/3rd meeting situation), and she's not with the program in terms of getting amorous at the start - cut her off.

Last Minute Resistance can be conquered, First Minute Resistance while you have her isolated is only for guys who like the dance. That's one of those areas where she's comfortable and attractive enough to go to the sex location, but has her mind made up that she's not making out, much less fucking. Situation like that, where you can't even do the 2 steps forward and 1 step back is where you really sit back and play the dread/competition game, more so than the active, I can figure out your psychology and push button games.

You basically just described my last two dates.

Im having a "my entire life has been a lie" moment

Im writing this down on my logbook so I never forget it again.

Post: #21

@OP - You can also see Rollo Tomassi's good exposition of this concept.
The issue of comfort sometimes makes me recall nature documentaries where a male feline sometimes bites the female during copulation and as soon as the deed is over, the two even want to fight.

Post: #22

Quote:This "when to chill versus when to press on" is one of those weird areas of game that you only get if you've done it.

So you rely less on this sort of feedback and lead with your own impressions.

In the sales context, if you have a stronger personality than the prospect, and the prospect likes you - you can change and influence their mood with your own. Changing the mood is easier than changing the mind.

Or as my ex would say, "I get really excited, and when I get excited, they get excited and then they buy".

So when you go from basic understanding to intermediate, you let go of the material. When you go from intermediate to advanced understanding of game, you let go of the time table/structure.

With solid experience, that feeling you get when you know "it's on" comes faster and earlier.

Couple that with experience, with options, and now with higher standards - you change up to see how she changes up. If her change is one that you like, she passes your test. If she goes in the wrong direction, you get rid of her. And as you can surmise, when a girl feel like she's on the spot, and you withdraw, she might fight harder to keep you interested.

WIA:




I'm bookmarking your long post for future reference.

Post: #23

Comfort is NOT attraction. And attraction is NOT seduction.

Without isolation, jumping through escalation windows, kino escalation, heading to a dark alley, overcoming LMRs, freezouts and makeouts there is no bang.

Post: #24

^ Pride Male: considering what you've said it brings up a very good point as to where guys should focus their improvements.

From Comfort, Attraction, and Seduction (all the way to the bang of course), each of us should ask where we land most often when we get stuck, and which are prerequisites of the other.

Attraction: Surely there can be attraction with little or no comfort. But USUALLY a base level of comfort will have to be established to get the bang.
Comfort: Comfort alone won't get the bang, so there has to be some attraction to get to the bang.
Seduction: Requires both attraction and comfort at varying levels depending on the girl and the situation.

Naturally all the shit like logistics and escalation has to be in step, or a lot of either attraction or comfort don't do you much good.

A few examples of extreme cases might be: Car sex; obviously there's a lot of attraction for that to occur, and only a bit of comfort is likely to be needed... after all, you're fucking in a car.
A girl with a very low notch count would be an example of needing a lot of comfort, and some attraction to seal the deal.

Post: #25

Workplace Game

If you gaming people in your own work environment, and they in another department or location its easier to create sexual tension. You not seeing them all the time so you can maintain the status quo.

I have noticed though if you work in the same department where you see the person like everyday. Sexual tension can transition into comfort /rapport very quickly if you not careful.

The key to maintain the sexual tension is let the person know early that you just not a friend . Escalation.

However one warning in the workplace. There is always the sexual harrasment thing that lingers in any workplace. Your escalation has to be apparent but subtle. In the workplace anything you say or do can be used against you.