Post: #1

I recently had a failed confrontation with an AMOG (alpha other guy) and realized this is something I'm not so good at.

I was talking to a 2 set 7 and high 8 (ukraine and Polish) standing at the bar and doing pretty well, so when they finished their mojitos I suggested we get a mojito bowl. I wanted to get a table but they preferred to stand at the bar, which should have been a warning maybe, so we stayed at the bar. After around 15 minutes a guy comes up, confident and good looking and asks if he can invite us for a shot. I say no thanks, so he asks the Ukraine girl. She doesn't answer so I told him again, no thanks. So he says, do you control these girls? Then the Ukraine girl shyly smiled and said she met him 5 months ago. She was obviously trying to decide what to do. Now the guy starts trying to convince the Polish 8 to come and is trying to push by me. So I put my hand on his chest so he can't pass and said, backup and don't touch me. Then a friend of his appears out of nowhere...is there a problem? So now the Polish girl thinks there is going to be a fight and walks away towards there table which was right behind us at the bar. and the AMOG and his friend decide to cut their losses and foliow her to their table with 3-4 guys. The Ukraine girl seemed to eat it up and stayed around to talk to me a bit more then said I have to go. I just stayed at the bar and ignored them and about 30 min later when I left I see them sitting at the table with a mojito but the two guys are gone and they seem to be waiting for them. The Ukraine chick smiles so I give her a nice good bye and ignore the Polish, who is looking at me kind of curiously (she started out being the more interested) but I ignore her because she bailed out first.

I don't have any good way to deal with these guys, but I guess I thought I was in so went the alpha route myself. Sometimes I just roll the dice and hope the girl will think the guy is rude and deny him (that's what usually happens). In this case, in retrospect it was almost like the AMOG had a bet that he could pull those girls over to the table.

What is the best approach here? Any similar stories?

Post: #2

Just to clarify, are you absolutely sure the girls weren't possibly a 6.75 and a low 9?

I have trouble with PUA scale terminology sometimes.

Post: #3

Paging Little Dark !

Post: #4

The defeat was here:

Quote: I wanted to get a table but they preferred to stand at the bar, which should have been a warning maybe, so we stayed at the bar.

Your reaction to the guy was based on knowing your hold on the girls was weak.

Post: #5

(06-29-2015 05:45 PM)Roosh Wrote:  The defeat was here:

Quote: I wanted to get a table but they preferred to stand at the bar, which should have been a warning maybe, so we stayed at the bar.

Your reaction to the guy was based on knowing your hold on the girls was weak.

Exactly.

Being able to move anyone, male or female, around a room or between venues is a great test of one's influence over a person/group.

Post: #6

(06-29-2015 05:45 PM)Roosh Wrote:  The defeat was here:

Quote: I wanted to get a table but they preferred to stand at the bar, which should have been a warning maybe, so we stayed at the bar.

Your reaction to the guy was based on knowing your hold on the girls was weak.

Could be, but I could imagine cases where if i was with a guy and the AMOG did the same thing I would have reacted the same way. In hindsight I thought if I said nothing they would have told him they would come over later. So my question is, what's the best strategy to deal with these guys and keep the girls in.

Post: #7

(06-29-2015 05:57 PM)JohnQPublic Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 05:45 PM)Roosh Wrote:  The defeat was here:

Quote: I wanted to get a table but they preferred to stand at the bar, which should have been a warning maybe, so we stayed at the bar.

Your reaction to the guy was based on knowing your hold on the girls was weak.

Could be, but I could imagine cases where if i was with a guy and the AMOG did the same thing I would have reacted the same way. In hindsight I thought if I said nothing they would have told him they would come over later. So my question is, what's the best strategy to deal with these guys and keep the girls in.

The bold part explains why you lost, they weren't interested in getting a table with you. Even you admitted that was a red flag.

I don't think it mattered if you said something or didn't, because they ended up at the table with the guys.

They obviously had history with that guy at some point.

Post: #8

Last year I was at a bar with a date. This was our third venue change and we were both buzzed and having a good time. These 2 guys, good-looking, well-dressed open us both up with a "We really need your opinion on something!"

One guy starts being super salesman friendly with me and manages to turn me away from my date, while the other starts engaging her. I didn't want to be rude but when I saw out of the corner of my eye the other guy touch my dates arm, I realized quickly what was going on so I went over to the other guy and literally stood between him and my date and pretended to be very interested in what he had to say. Asking him all sorts of questions, etc.

After a couple moments I think he realized I knew what they were both up to and I was going to keep his attention on me.

Every situation is different, but I've found engaging them in conversation to the point where they want to leave often works well. They will get very tired of it and either leave or lose frame, because they came to talk to the girls, not to you.

Post: #9

(06-29-2015 06:21 PM)Onto Wrote:  Last year I was at a bar with a date. This was our third venue change and we were both buzzed and having a good time. These 2 guys, good-looking, well-dressed open us both up with a "We really need your opinion on something!"

One guy starts being super salesman friendly with me and manages to turn me away from my date, while the other starts engaging her. I didn't want to be rude but when I saw out of the corner of my eye the other guy touch my dates arm, I realized quickly what was going on so I went over to the other guy and literally stood between him and my date and pretended to be very interested in what he had to say. Asking him all sorts of questions, etc.

After a couple moments I think he realized I knew what they were both up to and I was going to keep his attention on me.

Every situation is different, but I've found engaging them in conversation to the point where they want to leave often works well. They will get very tired of it and either leave or lose frame, because they came to talk to the girls, not to you.

What the fuck? This is level 10 douchebaggery.
Bros do this to other bros?

Pretty soon when I get back to the western world I know I will have to deal with this.
Gonna keep an eye on this thread.

Post: #10

It's a shame, haha. I'm not in the business of taking anyone's date. I've only run night game once this year and I've found there to be more women dancing and mingling with other women and a lot of them coupled up. I think some guys are bold enough to Amog other alphas, but its usually sets where the girls look least interested in their partners.

I think the only time I was amog'd was pre-game and I was in the college cafeteria with one of the hot cheerleaders that used to braid my hair. I had a thing for her as well. Her and I are having breakfast when this 6'2-3 basketball player comes over, chats her up and I'm pretty much out of the conversation. I can't remember if I left for class or waited until her and I finished breakfast. I just know that it was clear who the more dominant figure was in that situation.

Post: #11

It is crazy the sheer Animal Planet level that nightlife gets to.

"A lone male has encountered a pair of females unaccompanied. He spies his chance, and begins mating rituals. Things seem to be going apace, but what's that? A pair of rival males appears. They are not intimidated by the lone male, and move in on him. They face off, but the pair is brash, they know they have nothing to fear. The females stand back, and allow the confrontation to take its natural course.

Truly, there is no contest here. The lone male knows this, and rather than risk a physical confrontation, he abandons the scene."

Post: #12

(06-29-2015 09:35 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  It is crazy the sheer Animal Planet level that nightlife gets to.

"A lone male has encountered a pair of females unaccompanied. He spies his chance, and begins mating rituals. Things seem to be going apace, but what's that? A pair of rival males appears. They are not intimidated by the lone male, and move in on him. They face off, but the pair is brash, they know they have nothing to fear. The females stand back, and allow the confrontation to take its natural course.

Truly, there is no contest here. The lone male knows this, and rather than risk a physical confrontation, he abandons the scene."

Very good, but you left out the bit where the female humans get tingles from the male competition.

Post: #13

(06-29-2015 05:28 PM)JohnQPublic Wrote:  I wanted to get a table but they preferred to stand at the bar, which should have been a warning maybe, so we stayed at the bar.

In this situation you need to be really careful about who's doing what around you. Especially guys. You should lean against the bar and have girls face you. Preferably you should engage some sort of physical game so make it look like girls are already yours. Spontaneous touching of hands and shoulders, few times arm around their neck etc. Just something that signals that you're "IN" so that others guys would read it as tough situation.

When a dude comes up you ignore him and engage girls. There was too much talking to him on your part. Yes even those few words are too much. It's better to ignore the guy completely and talk to girls and focus their attention on you so that he has to try hard to break through. Of course it's better to do it before he even opens his mouth.

In case of emergency, if you feel like you can pull it off, it's best to just take girls' hands and move away from the spot.

Relevant..
/thread-45300-...#pid962705

I love this video...

Post: #14

1) amog approaches and tries to buy you and the set a drink
2) ACCEPT IT

I don't know if he was betting that you wouldn't accept it. The whole scenario sounds like an Eastern European cultural thing, where he was doing something socially acceptable with a killer motive underneath it, and you tried to fend it off, even though these chicks weren't in to you. (and if he didn't show up, how were you going to handle the 2 set?)

Option 1 - kill him

3) get his name, but give him a diminutive nick name, like Little Brother
4) step between him and the targets
5) start shit testing him the way that they would
- where are your friends
- who old are you
- why are you here alone
- why didn't you dress up
- which one do you like
- are you in university, why not? Why? how come you don't have a job?
- how come you don't like (the ugly one if there is one)
- etc, depends on the culture and situation.

Keeping the attention on you, taking advice and counsel from the chicks while he's on the hot seat, should be enough to take down most AMOG's. Most guys just don't have the sort of chops to handle a barrage of shit tests even when put on the spot.

He'll try and turn it back to you, but remind him that you're in the driver's seat.
You're attacking his logical brain and he's responding LOGICALLY, instead of thinking about game.

A note on shit-testing - bitches love to sit in judgment, so taking their shit and using it to your advantage is a good tool.

Option 2 - the coerced wing man.

3) get his name, and big him up.
4) put your arm around his shoulder and face both the chicks
5) PICK YOUR TARGET, CLAIM HER
6) I'm glad you're here, the (ugly one) needs some attention
7) shit test him enough to get him to stick with the other chick,
8) lock in with your chick, and leave the two of them with each other.

the old technique here was, "oh snap did you see that" (to your reluctant target)

Then just say that he's making a move on the friend, and she's reciprocating
"We should give them a little privacy"

Now you've got her isolated, amog and obstacle neutralized, and time to really pull out your heavy guns.

Option 3 0 if you have skills

I did a fair amount of dance club/bar approaching, and I'd drag the whole set to the dance floor. That would typically ice any amog, and get the chicks back into me. Guys that dance better than me, usually only dance better on the solo. Guys that "dumb dance" look stupid. And tons of guys don't dance, where as tons of girls do (but poorly). That might be too specific to the American context. (and a situation I haven't seen lately)

WIA

Post: #15

WIA's post should literally but it's own thread. LOT'S of valuable info here.

Post: #16

There are some good tips here. I remember reading some basic AMOG tactics way back when, but I only remember general rules (see below). Anyway, I left out a lot tl;dr.

You guys are focusing on the no bounce to table, but there were two of them one of me, so that wouldn't work for one of them. I had 15 min to get in before AMOG showed up. The Polish was the alpha and got me over with heavy IOI. Then 10 minutes of shit tests. Why are you alone, why are you drinking a beer and so on. Then after my turn and she settled down. Once we got the mojito bowl there are 3-4 straws, but whatever one i used, the Ukraine would drink from after me. Even when I changed. The Ukraine girl was the one who had met the AMOG, but he was there to go after the Polish. But she stayed around for a bit after she took off.

(06-30-2015 01:09 AM)Lizard King Wrote:  Very good, but you left out the bit where the female humans get tingles from the male competition.

This was definitely the Ukraine one

(06-30-2015 04:54 AM)XXL Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 05:28 PM)JohnQPublic Wrote:  I wanted to get a table but they preferred to stand at the bar, which should have been a warning maybe, so we stayed at the bar.

In this situation you need to be really careful about who's doing what around you. Especially guys. You should lean against the bar and have girls face you. Preferably you should engage some sort of physical game so make it look like girls are already yours. Spontaneous touching of hands and shoulders, few times arm around their neck etc. Just something that signals that you're "IN" so that others guys would read it as tough situation.

When a dude comes up you ignore him and engage girls. There was too much talking to him on your part. Yes even those few words are too much. It's better to ignore the guy completely and talk to girls and focus their attention on you so that he has to try hard to break through. Of course it's better to do it before he even opens his mouth.
I love this video...

I love that video title: AMOG Kombat.

You're right. But he totally blind sided me, at that moment i was trying to deal with the Ukraine girl's straw switching.

(06-30-2015 08:03 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  1) amog approaches and tries to buy you and the set a drink
2) ACCEPT IT
WIA

Once she said the AMOG knew her I tried to switch gears and be mr. friendly but he wanted nothing to do with it. Said, "you are incredibly confident" then started going for the Pole.

Re: what to do with the 2-set. I'm good with that. It's the best possible case other than solo. But early on the Ukraine girl opened that door. My reverse shit test to the Polish was, did you find a [local] guy to marry? She said not yet and the Ukrainian said, it's hard to find one who will let me go with girls too. But otherwise good question, I could have missed the insta-wingman if he wasn't so obviously uncool

Post: #17

(06-29-2015 05:28 PM)JohnQPublic Wrote:  I recently had a failed confrontation with an AMOG (alpha other guy) and realized this is something I'm not so good at.

I was talking to a 2 set 7 and high 8 (ukraine and Polish) standing at the bar and doing pretty well, so when they finished their mojitos I suggested we get a mojito bowl. I wanted to get a table but they preferred to stand at the bar, which should have been a warning maybe, so we stayed at the bar. After around 15 minutes a guy comes up, confident and good looking and asks if he can invite us for a shot. I say no thanks, so he asks the Ukraine girl. She doesn't answer so I told him again, no thanks. So he says, do you control these girls? Then the Ukraine girl shyly smiled and said she met him 5 months ago. She was obviously trying to decide what to do. Now the guy starts trying to convince the Polish 8 to come and is trying to push by me. So I put my hand on his chest so he can't pass and said, backup and don't touch me. Then a friend of his appears out of nowhere...is there a problem? So now the Polish girl thinks there is going to be a fight and walks away towards there table which was right behind us at the bar. and the AMOG and his friend decide to cut their losses and foliow her to their table with 3-4 guys. The Ukraine girl seemed to eat it up and stayed around to talk to me a bit more then said I have to go. I just stayed at the bar and ignored them and about 30 min later when I left I see them sitting at the table with a mojito but the two guys are gone and they seem to be waiting for them. The Ukraine chick smiles so I give her a nice good bye and ignore the Polish, who is looking at me kind of curiously (she started out being the more interested) but I ignore her because she bailed out first.

I don't have any good way to deal with these guys, but I guess I thought I was in so went the alpha route myself. Sometimes I just roll the dice and hope the girl will think the guy is rude and deny him (that's what usually happens). In this case, in retrospect it was almost like the AMOG had a bet that he could pull those girls over to the table.

What is the best approach here? Any similar stories?

Honestly I would have welcomed him. You said there was more than one girl and I imagine you were the only guy. I would let him take one or two of the girls off my hand so I could isolate one. Golden opportunity to work together.

On the other hand Onto is spot on. Just engage the guy in conversation and rip him to shreds if he isn't friendly.

Post: #18

Lot's of good advice here but if you are small and timid this amog defense stuff won't help much.

If you tried this stuff on a strong player/alpha you'd still lose. Sometimes you have to:

A) become more alpha (sports, boxing, training, masculine activities, etc)

B) Realize you need to isolate quickly and mitigate the risk of amog swooping.

Personally I like to make hard eye contact and say "hey bro whats your name?" "I'm John" with a hard handshake. Say it too loudly. I grab his hand even if he doesn't put it out. All while smiling and staring. Be weirdly friendly but loud. If he flinches you can turn around and freeze him out or say "Cool we'll come get a drink in a minute" and turn your back. Again this is if you're more alpha then him.

Post: #19

(06-30-2015 12:15 PM)JohnQPublic Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 08:03 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  1) amog approaches and tries to buy you and the set a drink
2) ACCEPT IT
WIA

Once she said the AMOG knew her I tried to switch gears and be mr. friendly but he wanted nothing to do with it. Said, "you are incredibly confident" then started going for the Pole.

Re: what to do with the 2-set. I'm good with that. It's the best possible case other than solo. But early on the Ukraine girl opened that door. My reverse shit test to the Polish was, did you find a [local] guy to marry? She said not yet and the Ukrainian said, it's hard to find one who will let me go with girls too. But otherwise good question, I could have missed the insta-wingman if he wasn't so obviously uncool

Very tough situation John Q.

- they weren't complying with you
- you couldn't separate them
- he knew one of em
- he had a buddy

I liked some of your tests, but this is the danger of the two set.

If it's a lone wolf, you can occupy her time, get her to lock in, and isolate
A 3+ set, the other 2+ chicks can talk to themselves.

A 2 set means you've got to manage both chicks, make a move on one, and keep the other one cool.

And in all of these situations, you can get AMOG'd.

The real problem here was that whoever your target was, wasn't feeling you. If she was in to you, she would have shut him and his boy down.

Real tough, had I not gotten an in with the target, handling the dude would not have mattered either way. Chicks like fights/drama, but they don't always reward the victor (unlike the animal kingdom)

WIA

Post: #20

(06-29-2015 05:28 PM)JohnQPublic Wrote:  She doesn't answer so I told him again, no thanks. So he says, do you control these girls? Then the Ukraine girl shyly smiled and said she met him 5 months ago. She was obviously trying to decide what to do. Now the guy starts trying to convince the Polish 8 to come and is trying to push by me. So I put my hand on his chest so he can't pass and said, backup and don't touch me. Then a friend of his appears out of nowhere...is there a problem?

If your in the position where you don't have much rapport with the girls and they are not being compliant then its a challenge when an interrupt enters the scene. It would be different if you had solid value and rapport with these girls and they had trust in your judgement, as you could ignore the guy and literally pick up your girl and put her on the otherside of the bar, anything would go.

If a guy just comes up and offers the "would you like drinks?" line when your with more than one girl and there is one that is getting in the way, send him to occupy the girl while you speak to yours. In this case letting the guy go off with the Polish girl so you could speak to yours would have been a better idea, if his whole game is supplicating to her and all about buying her drinks then we can probably assume the outcome.

Post: #21

(06-30-2015 06:39 PM)PainPositive Wrote:  If a guy just comes up and offers the "would you like drinks?" line when your with more than one girl and there is one that is getting in the way, send him to occupy the girl while you speak to yours. In this case letting the guy go off with the Polish girl so you could speak to yours would have been a better idea, if his whole game is supplicating to her and all about buying her drinks then we can probably assume the outcome.

The guy was obviously a wanker so I initially tried to get rid of him. He didn't respond later when I introduced myself and tried to friend him.

Post: #22

I think that the strongest predictor of incidents of AMOGging simply boil down to 1) Does he think you could beat him up? And, 2) Does he think your crew could beat his crew up?

Yes, very primitive, but hey, that's the human race for you!

Now, what actionable advise to take from this? Start lifting, and Be The Danger.

Pertinent discussion at 2:47 to 4:30 of this video:

Post: #23

The word is "rival", right? Dudes have been scrapping over chicks well before Mystery & Co started inventing their own language.

Post: #24

(06-29-2015 05:28 PM)JohnQPublic Wrote:  I recently had a failed confrontation with an AMOG (alpha other guy) and realized this is something I'm not so good at.

I was talking to a 2 set 7 and high 8 (ukraine and Polish) standing at the bar and doing pretty well, so when they finished their mojitos I suggested we get a mojito bowl. I wanted to get a table but they preferred to stand at the bar, which should have been a warning maybe, so we stayed at the bar. After around 15 minutes a guy comes up, confident and good looking and asks if he can invite us for a shot. I say no thanks, so he asks the Ukraine girl. She doesn't answer so I told him again, no thanks. So he says, do you control these girls? Then the Ukraine girl shyly smiled and said she met him 5 months ago. She was obviously trying to decide what to do. Now the guy starts trying to convince the Polish 8 to come and is trying to push by me. So I put my hand on his chest so he can't pass and said, backup and don't touch me. Then a friend of his appears out of nowhere...is there a problem? So now the Polish girl thinks there is going to be a fight and walks away towards there table which was right behind us at the bar. and the AMOG and his friend decide to cut their losses and foliow her to their table with 3-4 guys. The Ukraine girl seemed to eat it up and stayed around to talk to me a bit more then said I have to go. I just stayed at the bar and ignored them and about 30 min later when I left I see them sitting at the table with a mojito but the two guys are gone and they seem to be waiting for them. The Ukraine chick smiles so I give her a nice good bye and ignore the Polish, who is looking at me kind of curiously (she started out being the more interested) but I ignore her because she bailed out first.

I don't have any good way to deal with these guys, but I guess I thought I was in so went the alpha route myself. Sometimes I just roll the dice and hope the girl will think the guy is rude and deny him (that's what usually happens). In this case, in retrospect it was almost like the AMOG had a bet that he could pull those girls over to the table.

What is the best approach here? Any similar stories?

You should have accepted his offer to buy a shot, and after that you should have bought the next one. After all you where alone with 2 girls you had just met, with any link whatsoever, and would be better to have a wing to let you focus on one of the girls. Ok, he was not alone, but you only figured it out after making the bad decision to confrontate him. Things could have gone worse for you then they actually did...

In fact you acted the opposite of an alpha, putting yourself in danger for some chicks you had just met.
A major alpha male, the great General Erwin Rommel once said "Don't fight a battle if you don't gain anything by winning."

The thing to do if you noticed beforehand that they where 3 or 4 guys, was to go to the table and compliment each and any of them like you know them for centuries, dominate the scene, and let them pay for yours and the girls drinks. If somehow you started to loose both girls to the guys, just bail out to the next ones.

Anyway, sheers for you for sharing this story.

Post: #25

Quote:You should have accepted his offer to buy a shot, and after that you should have bought the next one. After all you where alone with 2 girls you had just met, with any link whatsoever, and would be better to have a wing to let you focus on one of the girls. Ok, he was not alone, but you only figured it out after making the bad decision to confrontate him. Things could have gone worse for you then they actually did...

In fact you acted the opposite of an alpha, putting yourself in danger for some chicks you had just met.

On this forum you have to assume the lowest common denominator, but you can rest assured that I was in no danger from this guy or his friend. A re-read will show that as soon as the confrontation got close to physical, the AMOG and his friend both immediately disappeared.

My point here is that if you go the combative alpha male route you can win the battle (scare away the AMOG) but lose the war (scare away the girl too) -- which was my case that night, and the reason for this post.

(06-30-2015 06:39 PM)PainPositive Wrote:  Lot's of good advice here but if you are small and timid this amog defense stuff won't help much.

If you tried this stuff on a strong player/alpha you'd still lose. Sometimes you have to:

A) become more alpha (sports, boxing, training, masculine activities, etc)

B) Realize you need to isolate quickly and mitigate the risk of amog swooping.

(07-07-2015 01:31 AM)civpro Wrote:  I think that the strongest predictor of incidents of AMOGging simply boil down to 1) Does he think you could beat him up? And, 2) Does he think your crew could beat his crew up?

Yes, very primitive, but hey, that's the human race for you!

Now, what actionable advise to take from this? Start lifting, and Be The Danger.

Pertinent discussion at 2:47 to 4:30 of this video:

When I read these posts saying, beef up and fight dude, I keep thinking of this guy - Titus Pullo, and I remember that everybody needs a wingman sometimes: