Post: #26

(07-21-2015 06:56 PM)Only One Man Wrote:  I actually think universal healthcare, free public college education and building many more places to house and feed the chronically homeless and mentally ill would be good for society. .

Edit: I am in no way advocating for more handouts to lazy piles of shit who simply don't want to work.

It doesn't really matter what you advocate for, the economic reality is that it will result in more handouts for people who don't want to work.

Let's be honest, if you're a great (or even good) student, money is easily available for college - not just loans. So we're really talking about the average student. The one whose parents are either too poor themselves to pay for college or know he's not serious about education and unwilling to pay. In other words, someone more concerned with video games and parties than education. What gives that kid a higher moral and legal claim to my hard-fought earnings than me?

And, if it's such a great investment for the good of the whole country, why hasn't he made that investment in himself?

Post: #27

(07-21-2015 06:56 PM)Only One Man Wrote:  I actually think universal healthcare, free public college education and building many more places to house and feed the chronically homeless and mentally ill would be good for society. There is more than enough tax revenue to pay for this if most tax dollars weren't funneled to the super rich through corporate welfare, the military industrial complex, interest paid to the federal reserve, ect. There is a tendency on this forum to immediately label anything remotely "liberal", no matter what it is, as automatically bad or beta, which I think is pretty dumb.

Edit: I am in no way advocating for more handouts to lazy piles of shit who simply don't want to work.

Some people literally study and openly discuss how to best game the system. In two days I have eavesdropped on two almost identical separate discussions on how best to file paperwork to get the most disability compensation (by two a 20-something-year-old uninjured males) so that the single momma' doesn't have to work anymore and support "Both your sorry asses."

Post: #28

(07-21-2015 07:15 PM)KorbenDallas Wrote:  Bernie Sanders has never had a tough job in his life. He has never had to deal with difficult customers for years on end, made difficult decisions that would effect his family and employees families because of government regulatory idiocy, never gone bankrupt, and never spoken toward the opportunity freedom has produced for those willing to work for it in America.

He has gone to nice restaurants his whole life while living off the American worker and entrepreneur.

His socialism is not the result of a life spent at tough jobs, but the result of his weakness of character and fortitude as a man. His socialism is his rage at being inferior to the builders and producers he so despises, and because of this, Sanders should be escorted straight to Cuba to work for 10 dollars a month with his comrades, not promoted to Commander and Chief.

Sanders is the candidate of the weasel, the male feminists, and the murderous Red. His rhetoric against wall street is not the disgust that an Honest eye doctor like Ran Paul feels for thieves, but calculated bait towards the dim and midwitted into supporting him so he can become the next abysmal failure in the long line of failed Marxist Silver Spooned Revolutionaries who as soon as they take over create hell on earth for the idiots that supported them along with the noble men that stood against them.

Bernie Sanders' father was an immigrant from Poland; his family died in the holocaust. He (the father) worked as a paint salesman. Sanders moved to Vermont in 1968 and wasn't elected to public office until 1981. In between he supported himself by working jobs including carpenter. Then in '81, at age ~40, he won election for mayor of Burlington, that's when he started getting those big mayor of Burlington bucks.

I'm not saying he built a successful company from the ground up or something. Sounds like he was a 60's radical and activist, did civil rights stuff, some amateur journalism and filmmaking. You can like that or hate it. But don't portray him as some wealthy limousine liberal unless you can back it up with facts.

Post: #29

(07-21-2015 07:59 PM)Captainstabbin Wrote:  

(07-21-2015 07:54 PM)Kaizen Wrote:  Say what you will...at least he's not a puppet with a master (clinton, bush, walker etc).

Everyone in politics is a puppet. His masters are the labor unions.

In order of contributions:
Machinists/Aerospace Workers Union
Teamsters Union
National Education Assn
United Auto Workers
United Food & Commercial Workers Union
Communications Workers of America
Laborers Union
Carpenters & Joiners Union
National Assn of Letter Carriers
American Assn for Justice
American Fedn of St/Cnty/Munic Employees
Intl Brotherhood of Electrical Workers
United Transportation Union
Sheet Metal Workers Union
Operating Engineers Union
Service Employees International Union
UNITE HERE
United Steelworkers
American Postal Workers Union
Plumbers/Pipefitters Union

Corporations, executives, and top .01 percenters have plenty of voice in politics. You know chamber of commerce types far outspend unions right? I like it that people who work for a living have a voice.

Post: #30

(07-21-2015 10:29 PM)Ryre Wrote:  

(07-21-2015 07:59 PM)Captainstabbin Wrote:  

(07-21-2015 07:54 PM)Kaizen Wrote:  Say what you will...at least he's not a puppet with a master (clinton, bush, walker etc).

Everyone in politics is a puppet. His masters are the labor unions.

In order of contributions:
Machinists/Aerospace Workers Union
Teamsters Union
National Education Assn
United Auto Workers
United Food & Commercial Workers Union
Communications Workers of America
Laborers Union
Carpenters & Joiners Union
National Assn of Letter Carriers
American Assn for Justice
American Fedn of St/Cnty/Munic Employees
Intl Brotherhood of Electrical Workers
United Transportation Union
Sheet Metal Workers Union
Operating Engineers Union
Service Employees International Union
UNITE HERE
United Steelworkers
American Postal Workers Union
Plumbers/Pipefitters Union

Corporations, executives, and top .01 percenters have plenty of voice in politics. You know chamber of commerce types far outspend unions right? I like it that people who work for a living have a voice.

That's quite hopeful to believe that the leaders of labor unions would be giving voice to workers under their cartels.

Post: #31

Simply socialism is a cancer and it is such an insidious cancer all of the methotrexate in the world can't treat it.

Post: #32

Being right-wing doesn't automatically make you "red pill." You can be just as misguided as a social-justice warrior by seriously believing "not giving your money to Wall Street" will solve the problem, that weak-ass unions have the same influence as multi-trillion dollar international companies, and that the-more-opposite-of-socialist you are the more masculine you are.

I've written extensively around this forum about dragging bankers into the street and beating them to within an inch of their lives, about the loss of manufacturing jobs, about illegal immigration being a problems ginned up by corporations to dilute the labor market and American wages. I've also said quite a bit about the relationship a lot of guys have to the word "socialist." I won't repeat that here, but this is a small sampling of those thoughts:

/thread-48214-...pid1041873
/thread-47698-...pid1027816
/thread-43165-...#pid902885
/thread-42549-...#pid884916
/thread-42549-...#pid884943

Sanders isn't a perfect candidate--and I too am troubled by some of his "gender" politics--but if you think the other candidates won't continue to give away the country to corporations and give these complaining feminists everything they want, you have another thing coming.

Korben's comments on the first page of this thread prove what I've said in the past: some guys are just drinking the Fox News Kool-Aid. That's a classic distraction tactic against left-leaning types. But this is one of the worst leftists to apply it to. As Ryre points out, the dude worked blue-collar jobs before taking the modest job of being a local mayor for a long time. I seem to remember him saying on a radio show (long before he was even a senator) that he was homeless for a while. He also shoots guns, if I'm not mistaken. He was even a transfer student in college, not some fourth-generation legacy at an elite college. The dude still speaks in a fucked up working-class accent for a reason; he's more like most of the guys on this forum than anyone you've been allowed to see in a long time.

The dude is more real, at least in those respects, than just about anyone over the last few elections--that's why the propaganda machine is going crazy over destroying that part of his character.

Post: #33

(07-21-2015 10:29 PM)Ryre Wrote:  

(07-21-2015 07:59 PM)Captainstabbin Wrote:  

(07-21-2015 07:54 PM)Kaizen Wrote:  Say what you will...at least he's not a puppet with a master (clinton, bush, walker etc).

Everyone in politics is a puppet. His masters are the labor unions.

In order of contributions:
Machinists/Aerospace Workers Union
Teamsters Union
National Education Assn
United Auto Workers
United Food & Commercial Workers Union
Communications Workers of America
Laborers Union
Carpenters & Joiners Union
National Assn of Letter Carriers
American Assn for Justice
American Fedn of St/Cnty/Munic Employees
Intl Brotherhood of Electrical Workers
United Transportation Union
Sheet Metal Workers Union
Operating Engineers Union
Service Employees International Union
UNITE HERE
United Steelworkers
American Postal Workers Union
Plumbers/Pipefitters Union

Corporations, executives, and top .01 percenters have plenty of voice in politics. You know chamber of commerce types far outspend unions right? I like it that people who work for a living have a voice.

I've been a union member. I'm guessing you are like most, that have not been there, that think they are some Utopia.

Unions today are the worst thing that ever happened to the working class.

Post: #34

(07-22-2015 12:06 AM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  Korben's comments on the first page of this thread prove what I've said in the past: some guys are just drinking the Fox News Kool-Aid.

Are you drinking MSNBC's?

Come on. The Faux News shit was tired 10 years ago.

It's just an easy slam for the left to throw out there for all their followers to say "huzzah!" too.

MSNBC and CNN are no different. They all push their ideals.

Post: #35

I don't have cable and do not watch fox news. I don't understand why every liberal I have ever argued/debated with has always brought Fox News up no matter what the subject is. There is almost a fetish among left leaning people of slandering the opponent by saying they just "watch Fox News".

Otherwise, I respect Tuthmosis and his opinions, and actually, Bernie Sanders to an extent. But being homeless in America, especially around the time and place Bernie would have been homeless, is a cakewalk. I've met and talked to homeless people in Eastern Europe who lived through socialism, talked to young people in Eastern Europe who have had some really rough lives, Sanders is a phony. Socialism/communism, its B.S.

There is no free lunch. Socialists/communists/Obama, anyone on the left, even if there are well meaning like Sanders, never make things better for people who are the least powerful. Everyone knows aid money to Africa goes to the despots. It's the same with government, if the government tricks the people into giving them more access to the nations wealth, the wealth is not spread around to the least powerful. It just, isn't. That's not how humans work and how power, of which money gives you, works. Insiders get rich, the "commoner" gets fucked.

It doesn't matter if its Cheney with his crony oil buddies or Obama with his green energy scamming donors, the money doesn't go to the bottom. Blacks are doing worse than ever under Obama as are wage earners.

I get the point about how if we didn't spend so much on corporate welfare and our military our tax dollars could do a bunch of things for ordinary Americans. But that's wishful thinking because powerful people will and do not anywhere allow money that they have to go to a bunch of strangers on the street except for the most token amounts.


It is much better for the regular guy to have a government that stays out of his life and does not have the power to earn the fruit of his labor "for the greater good".



Our government hardly lets you move more than a pittance overseas even if you genuinely want to expatriate, and acts against the interests of the regular MAN at every turn, and because one guy seems like he actually cares about your money issues you want to give this monstrosity even MORE power over business and commerce?

That's a lot of faith in an old guy whose worked in government the past 40 years.



Sanders slogan should be:

Socialism 2016
"I swear it won't be like Cuba, Russia, N. Korea, China, Hungary, Czech Republic, or Ukraine. I promise no one will go hungry this time. This time our hair brained wealth redistribution schemes at a time when this nation is deeply in debt already and has a broken monetary system that I'm not addressing, this time it will really work. Trust me."

Post: #36

(07-22-2015 12:15 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  Unions today are the worst thing that ever happened to the working class.

Not a big fan of unions myself but don't know if I agree with this. Unions have nothing on global corporations looking to minimize labor costs as much as they can. Unions can be as accommodating as the companies here want but they still can't compete when you have people in 3rd world nations making pennies an hour. That's all it boils down to. I also hate the extreme left-leanings of unions and the ineptitude they can be infected with but ultimately the working class is better off with unions than without in my opinion.

There have even been cases where companies here in Ontario locked their workers out, got the concessions they wanted in wages and benefits and then within a year or two still shut down operations moving to countries with cheaper labor anyway.

Post: #37

(07-22-2015 12:22 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  Are you drinking MSNBC's?

Come on. The Faux News shit was tired 10 years ago.

It's just an easy slam for the left to throw out there for all their followers to say "huzzah!" too.

MSNBC and CNN are no different. They all push their ideals.

I don't watch TV. At least not unless I'm at a hotel or a bar or at someone's house and it's playing in the background. Nor will you find anything I've written on this forum running on the ticker at the bottom of Hannity's show or some MSNBC show (I don't even know their lineup). So I don't say that as an insult. I say it because I've literally seen things being flashed on Fox on a hotel TV one night and then see a thread on the forum saying almost the same thing word-for-word a day or two later. Can you legitimately disagree with anything I've written in the posts I linked above? Show me someone in any media saying something that resembles what I write in, say, the first post.

CNN, Fox, and MSNBC are part of the same consolidated media with a corporate agenda. They want you to buy shit, work more for less, and shut the fuck up. Then they want to make you think someone else--illegal immigrants, "socialists," or Muslims--are to blame, while they laugh all the way to bank.

The left-right dichotomy is a joke, and the fact that you think I fit into the second of two columns (right-left, Fox-MSNBC) tells me you--at least politically speaking--haven't fully unplugged.

Post: #38

(07-22-2015 12:26 AM)TheSlayer Wrote:  

(07-22-2015 12:15 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  Unions today are the worst thing that ever happened to the working class.

Not a big fan of unions myself but don't know if I agree with this. Unions have nothing on global corporations looking to minimize labor costs as much as they can. Unions can be as accommodating as the companies here want but they still can't compete when you have people in 3rd world nations making pennies an hour. That's all it boils down to. I also hate the extreme left-leanings of unions and the ineptitude they can be infected with but ultimately the working class is better off with unions than without in my opinion.

There have even been cases where companies here in Ontario locked their workers out, got the concessions they wanted in wages and benefits and then within a year or two still shut down operations moving to countries with cheaper labor anyway.

Stealing an Obama soundbite; To be clear, I made over 100K for a lot of years while in a union job.

I know the good points and bad points. Unions are a cancer in today's day and age.

They lose more jobs for this country, in sync with our trade policies, than they save. Not even close.

Post: #39

(07-22-2015 12:35 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  

(07-22-2015 12:26 AM)TheSlayer Wrote:  

(07-22-2015 12:15 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  Unions today are the worst thing that ever happened to the working class.

Not a big fan of unions myself but don't know if I agree with this. Unions have nothing on global corporations looking to minimize labor costs as much as they can. Unions can be as accommodating as the companies here want but they still can't compete when you have people in 3rd world nations making pennies an hour. That's all it boils down to. I also hate the extreme left-leanings of unions and the ineptitude they can be infected with but ultimately the working class is better off with unions than without in my opinion.

There have even been cases where companies here in Ontario locked their workers out, got the concessions they wanted in wages and benefits and then within a year or two still shut down operations moving to countries with cheaper labor anyway.

Stealing an Obama soundbite; To be clear, I made over 100K for a lot of years while in a union job.

I know the good points and bad points. Unions are a cancer in today's day and age.

They lose more jobs for this country, in sync with our trade policies, than they save. Not even close.

What Obama soundbite did I steal?

I generally agree with you that unions aren't about worker empowerment as much as they used to be. All I am saying is that the percentage of the blame they share in the demise of the working class is far less than global corporations obsessed with reducing labor costs and wanting their workers to do more for less. Again, unions can bend over backwards and agree to whatever wages/benefits the companies want them to accept and that still won't be able to compete with some worker making $0.50/hour in some sweatshop.

To be clear I'd also make a distinction between public sector unions (which truly are a cancer) vs. private sector unions which have been destroyed by corporations with the help of globalization.

Post: #40

(07-22-2015 12:35 AM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

(07-22-2015 12:22 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  Are you drinking MSNBC's?

Come on. The Faux News shit was tired 10 years ago.

It's just an easy slam for the left to throw out there for all their followers to say "huzzah!" too.

MSNBC and CNN are no different. They all push their ideals.

CNN, Fox, and MSNBC are part of the same consolidated media with a corporate agenda. They want you to buy shit, work more for less, and shut the fuck up. Then they want to make you think someone else--illegal immigrants, "socialists," or Muslims--are to blame, while they laugh all the way to bank.

The left-right dichotomy is a joke,

I agree with what you say above entirely, and that is why I brought up the Faux News reference.

If you slam one, slam them all.

For some reason, only Fox ever gets called out.

Why is that?

I live in the Midwest and still have Midwest values, even though I may not live my life that way because I understand today's reality. On the flip side I have no problem listening to someone talking about the problems in our metro areas; transportation, water, etc. The discussions are often interesting when someone hears the other side.

I don't denigrate them. No need too.

Frankly. the constant "Faux News" shit is denigrating those of use that DO have traditional values, and those of us that would love to see our country go back to how it was.

Will it happen in the next 4 years? Hell no. At the same time, I will say the "Faux News" propaganda is more palatable to me than the shit I hear on other networks.

Post: #41

(07-22-2015 12:51 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  I agree with what you say above entirely, and that is why I brought up the Faux News reference.

If you slam one, slam them all.

For some reason, only Fox ever gets called out.

Why is that?

I live in the Midwest and still have Midwest values, even though I may not live my life that way because I understand today's reality. On the flip side I have no problem listening to someone talking about the problems in our metro areas; transportation, water, etc. The discussions are often interesting when someone hears the other side.

I don't denigrate them. No need too.

Frankly. the constant "Faux News" shit is denigrating those of use that DO have traditional values, and those of us that would love to see our country go back to how it was.

Will it happen in the next 4 years? Hell no. At the same time, I will say the "Faux News" propaganda is more palatable to me than the shit I hear on other networks.

I troll my left-winger friends by telling them about how "Fox News is correct on a few issues" (even though I haven't sat through a whole show in years). You'd be shocked at how much of a "right-winger" (and, of course, "misogynist") they consider me to be, so I use the term "friend" loosely. I mean the so-called right is, well, right on precisely the type of values you describe. Fox News is just a shortcut because they're the Cadillac of right-leaning media channels.

So when I say "Fox News Talking Points" I mean worn-out right-wing media arguments than aren't entirely coherent; not real traditional values that are actually important and in serious threat, but Obama-is-a-Socialist type of shit, when "socialist "actually means something, and he's a corporate stooge that couldn't be further-from. If someone were making some borderline feminist-apologist remarks, we'd call them "Jezebel Talking Points," but that doesn't mean Buzzfeed is any better, or that they even read Jezebel.

If someone were making some bullshit save-the-world statements, you might say they're like those "white girls holding African kids on OKCupid." You use imagery people recognize.

Post: #42

(07-22-2015 12:40 AM)TheSlayer Wrote:  

(07-22-2015 12:35 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  

(07-22-2015 12:26 AM)TheSlayer Wrote:  

(07-22-2015 12:15 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  Unions today are the worst thing that ever happened to the working class.

Not a big fan of unions myself but don't know if I agree with this. Unions have nothing on global corporations looking to minimize labor costs as much as they can. Unions can be as accommodating as the companies here want but they still can't compete when you have people in 3rd world nations making pennies an hour. That's all it boils down to. I also hate the extreme left-leanings of unions and the ineptitude they can be infected with but ultimately the working class is better off with unions than without in my opinion.

There have even been cases where companies here in Ontario locked their workers out, got the concessions they wanted in wages and benefits and then within a year or two still shut down operations moving to countries with cheaper labor anyway.

Stealing an Obama soundbite; To be clear, I made over 100K for a lot of years while in a union job.

I know the good points and bad points. Unions are a cancer in today's day and age.

They lose more jobs for this country, in sync with our trade policies, than they save. Not even close.

What Obama soundbite did I steal?

I generally agree with you that unions aren't about worker empowerment as much as they used to be. All I am saying is that the percentage of the blame they share in the demise of the working class is far less than global corporations obsessed with reducing labor costs and wanting their workers to do more for less. Again, unions can bend over backwards and agree to whatever wages/benefits the companies want them to accept and that still won't be able to compete with some worker making $0.50/hour in some sweatshop.

To be clear I'd also make a distinction between public sector unions (which truly are a cancer) vs. private sector unions which have been destroyed by corporations with the help of globalization.

I stole Obama's soundbite with "Let me be clear".

So tired of hearing that fuckstick say that the past 7 years....

Quite frankly, the private sector unions would be fine if not for the fact our government has sold out their jobs for overseas labor. And in the past couple decades, even on shore labor.

For example, lots of people like to bitch about GM and Chrysler going bankrupt. Understand this; The US is the only country in the world that would work to kill the largest corporation the world has ever seen, GM, and succeed over the past 30 years.

People howl about "American" cars made in Mexico. Guess what, they did that for survival, not just stock profits. Both parties have been behind this shit and they have both reduced the lifestyle of the American populace.

Want to see the results? Take a tour of Detroit.

It's only the most obvious destination. There are cities and towns all over this country that have been devastated by our trade policies of the past 40 years.

Our country is now at 81% for service jobs.

Think about that. No service economy has ever succeeded.

Post: #43

I think its sad that getting able to keep what you earn is considered a worn out right wing media argument.

Many working class people, of whom I am now a part of, are getting fucked in America.

But its not a right wing media argument to understand that no leftist has ever made things better for the regular man. And I am just talking about men. Leftists have made life easier in the last 40 years in America for women with their Family Law bullshit, but as men, it's never happened.

Freedom helps men who aren't insiders, and that's it.

Post: #44

(07-22-2015 01:06 AM)KorbenDallas Wrote:  I think its sad that getting able to keep what you earn is considered a worn out right wing media argument.

Many working class people, of whom I am now a part of, are getting fucked in America.

You know we've agreed about this in the past, so I know you don't mean me. Small business and actual working people (especially up-and-coming young professionals like many of the guys on this forum), as I say here, are the people disproportionately paying the burden of running this country, while massive multinationals get tax refunds and bankers siphon princely riches from our corrupt system.

The right in this country--at least the ones that they put up for us to vote on--aren't looking out for the working class or small business. Nor is the "left." These are the guys that gave it away in the first place--exporting our jobs, giving "tax breaks" to the ultra rich, and bailing out worthless banks.

Why wouldn't you be interested in listening to a guy who doesn't belong to either party and is from normal, humble roots?

Post: #45

Apparently my well reasoned response to Tuth has disappeared into the nether reaches of the internet.

I hate when I hit the wrong button. Dammit..

Edit-Or maybe I'm just a bit drunk. Fuck it... heh

Post: #46

(07-22-2015 12:35 AM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

(07-22-2015 12:22 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  Are you drinking MSNBC's?

Come on. The Faux News shit was tired 10 years ago.

It's just an easy slam for the left to throw out there for all their followers to say "huzzah!" too.

MSNBC and CNN are no different. They all push their ideals.

CNN, Fox, and MSNBC are part of the same consolidated media with a corporate agenda. They want you to buy shit, work more for less, and shut the fuck up. Then they want to make you think someone else--illegal immigrants, "socialists," or Muslims--are to blame, while they laugh all the way to bank.

The left-right dichotomy is a joke,

I agree with what you say above entirely, and that is why I brought up the Faux News reference.

If you slam one, slam them all.

For some reason, only Fox ever gets called out.

Why is that?

I live in the Midwest and still have Midwest values, even though I may not live my life that way because I understand today's reality. On the flip side I have no problem listening to someone talking about the problems in our metro areas; transportation, water, etc. The discussions are often interesting when someone hears the other side.

I don't denigrate them. No need too.

Frankly. the constant "Faux News" shit is denigrating those of use that DO have traditional values, and those of us that would love to see our country go back to how it was.

Will it happen in the next 4 years? Hell no. At the same time, I will say the "Faux News" propaganda is more palatable to me than the shit I hear on other networks.

Post: #47

(07-22-2015 01:02 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  I stole Obama's soundbite with "Let me be clear".

So tired of hearing that fuckstick say that the past 7 years....

Quite frankly, the private sector unions would be fine if not for the fact our government has sold out their jobs for overseas labor. And in the past couple decades, even on shore labor.

For example, lots of people like to bitch about GM and Chrysler going bankrupt. Understand this; The US is the only country in the world that would work to kill the largest corporation the world has ever seen, GM, and succeed over the past 30 years.

People howl about "American" cars made in Mexico. Guess what, they did that for survival, not just stock profits. Both parties have been behind this shit and they have both reduced the lifestyle of the American populace.

Want to see the results? Take a tour of Detroit.

It's only the most obvious destination. There are cities and towns all over this country that have been devastated by our trade policies of the past 40 years.

Our country is now at 81% for service jobs.

Think about that. No service economy has ever succeeded.

Ah, gotcha!

We are both right in this case. It's not the government alone that wants cheap labor. It's the government working in conjunction with global elitists/corporations. If anything I'd argue that these global companies want the ability to outsource their operations more than the governments want to enable them.

And the unions for the most part have been helpless to prevent this move except for public sector unions which are usually operating under monopolies.

Post: #48

It's worth mentioning that much of the basic legislation that people here take for granted was enacted as a result of "socialist agitation" of the early twentieth century.

Things like:

Child labor laws
Minimum wage laws
Basic workers' health measures
Product labels on foods and medicines
Auto safety legislation

Big business and big money tried to block all of these things. They're still doing it. Or they're trying to roll back the clock, and undo all the progressive legislation enacted in the early 20th century. Sadly, the utter political immaturity of the American electorate works in the favor of these forces.

If it were up to big business, there wouldn't be any of these things.

"Socialists" may not be electable in the US, but they have served a useful political purpose of being engines for social change.

The mainstream candidates of both political parties--or what passes as "parties"--are cats of the same stripe. They're both owned by big business.

The best we can hope for, in this situation, is that some of the better ideas of the "fringe" candidates get adopted by progressive legislators or presidents.

All I know is, things in the US need to change. We just can't go on like this.

Just look at this for example: a new report shows that fossil fuel companies knew about the human role in climate change in the early 1980s, and then spent decades deliberately spreading misinformation to deny what all scientists now know to be a fact:

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/20...-1981.html

This is how power operates. It protects its own interests. It doesn't want to give you a fair shake. It wants to be unchallenged. Power needs to be watched, checked, and balanced.

People like Sanders perform this useful service.

I will also toss out one other, unrelated thing.

I've been impressed recently by some of the things that the President has done. He's showing what I call backbone. I have to give credit where it's due.

In fact, Obama has done a few remarkable things that should be acknowledged. In the past 60 days, he's:

--Taken the first concrete steps to lift the embargo on Cuba, which has been an embarrassing anachronism for decades now.

--Toured a prison (first time any president has done so), and talked seriously about prison reform, which is needed.

--Signed a treaty with Iran, which is the first concrete step in normalization with that powerful nation that any president has done in decades. And he did it over the screaming and shouting from Congress and its masters.

Post: #49

Because he says he's a socialist. I don't disagree with anything you just wrote.

But, I have read too much economic literature on the dangers of socialism, dated a girl from a former communist country, and had too many bad experiences in my educational life by to look fondly on someone who openly proclaims himself a socialist. My experience with those who call themselves that is that they are petty, never debate fairly, slander those that disagree with them, and have extremely horrible views that they keep private. Their private views range from being extremely racist, extremely hateful of Christianity, and extreme hate towards families.

I agree with you about the right in this country. That's why I've never voted before. I didn't vote for McCain. As much I hated Obama I just couldn't. Same with Mitt.

If the election was between Sanders and Jeb I would vote for Sanders. But I'm going to vote for Trump just because he's not, seemingly, owned by anyone.

Post: #50

(07-22-2015 01:23 AM)TheSlayer Wrote:  We are both right in this case. It's not the government alone that wants cheap labor. It's the government working in conjunction with global elitists/corporations. If anything I'd argue that these global companies want the ability to outsource their operations more than the governments want to enable them.

The government is like a nice, solid drinking glass. The politicians inside of the glass are like liquid diarrhea. There's nothing inherently wrong with the glass ("the government"). We used to drink refreshing water out of it (e.g., the ability to support a whole family on a single income and have your thin, feminine wife stay home with your non-autistic children).

But, now, the glass full of liquid diarrhea. The solution isn't to blame the glass, it's to pour out the liquid diarrhea, sterilize the glass, and keep using it. It's a great glass you can't just go out and buy.