Post: #1

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2...40-million

TL;Dr: two guys make millions by operating a business making "loans" to small businesses. The rub is that the "loans at 400% annualized interest" are arguably "a purchase of future revenue" by operation of a legal loophole. They got their start selling these "loans" in a boiler room-style high pressure sales environment.

Anyone ever work in a boiler room and make bank? How'd it go?

They could probably get hotter girls with all that money than those pictured, amirite?

Post: #2

I thought this was gonna be about the boiler room techno shows on youtube.

Post: #3

I opened this thread and then skimmed the whole article to see some of these "Puerto Rican 7's"

I am dissapoint

Post: #4

Are those two the 7's?
Because all I see is a fat bitch and a washed up 6 (at best) that's gonna hit the wall before turning 25..

Post: #5

Guess which guy is banging which chick...

Post: #6

(10-07-2015 09:08 AM)ThrustMaster Wrote:  Guess which guy is banging which chick...

Honestly from what I have seen I would be more inclined to believe the guys are banging each other.

Post: #7

Boat shoes?

Douchey cargo shorts?

Untuckked and unbotted button shirts?

At least one item in pink?

Check on all counts. These guys look exactly like the preppy, leftist douchebags that infest college towns.

Post: #8

(10-07-2015 09:41 AM)Easy_C Wrote:  Boat shoes?

Douchey cargo shorts?

Untuckked and unbotted button shirts?

At least one item in pink?

Check on all counts. These guys look exactly like the preppy, leftist douchebags that infest college towns.

At least neither has a visible undershirt.

Post: #9

This is a great article, OP. Thanks for sharing this.

To me this type of situation raises the age-old debate about ethics: at what point does normal self-interest become exploitation?

I think this crosses the line. Charging 400% interest on small loans is worse than those payday loans or check cashing places. Just because it may have been "legal" doesn't make it right. It's blood money, and it's tainted.

Are they wealthy? Yes. Do I envy these men? No. I do not.

What is acquired through corruption, blossoms in corruption. Don't participate in evil, guys. Keep away from people like this. This is not the type of thing that a good man does.

Are they honorable? No, not in my opinion. These men acquired their wealth in an immoral way, and there will be a price to be paid for that, somewhere down the road in their lives. It may not happen soon. But at some point, what comes around, goes around.

I know that there are many guys who would think me a naive fool for suggesting that. They think that money is money, and who cares?

I'm not concerned. I've seen enough in my life to know that fast money, easy money, or blood money is never what it appears.

Their rendez-vous with Fate will come.

Post: #10

400% interest on loans?
Would these guys happen to be Jews?
Check.
Yep.

Post: #11

(10-07-2015 10:27 AM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  To me this type of situation raises the age-old debate about ethics: at what point does normal self-interest become exploitation?

There's never been any difference. Business is always a competition. The smart men profit more from deals than the stupid men. Not just in loans, but everything. The more savvy the businessman, the more he can move contracts closer to his advantage. It's like chess - if the other guy doesn't spot what you have in mind, you'll win, and vice versa.

This is why education is so important. It's easy to view this story merely in its narrow context, tailored by the author to fit the tone he wants it to have, but the question is "why did the counter-parties accept?". Why did they chose that option instead of just closing shop? Had they done so, they would've kept the remaining money that the loan sharkers received instead. Why weren't they taught in school about basic business practices, instead of worthless crap they'll never use?

Education is the ultimate defence against the sharks. For so long as your contracts with them are voluntary, it's ultimately your choice if you get eaten.

Post: #12

I'm not saying it is right or wrong but after giving it some thought I don't find it that wrong.
Given the very simple example at the end of the article, I don't see it much different than venues like bars and clubs charging $10 for a glass of draft beer which would be a markup of at least 1000%. But somehow that is more acceptable to a larger number of people.

Post: #13

(10-07-2015 11:30 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

(10-07-2015 10:27 AM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  To me this type of situation raises the age-old debate about ethics: at what point does normal self-interest become exploitation?

There's never been any difference. Business is always a competition. The smart men profit more from deals than the stupid men. Not just in loans, but everything. The more savvy the businessman, the more he can move contracts closer to his advantage. It's like chess - if the other guy doesn't spot what you have in mind, you'll win, and vice versa.

This is why education is so important. It's easy to view this story merely in its narrow context, tailored by the author to fit the tone he wants it to have, but the question is "why did the counter-parties accept?". Why did they chose that option instead of just closing shop? Had they done so, they would've kept the remaining money that the loan sharkers received instead. Why weren't they taught in school about basic business practices, instead of worthless crap they'll never use?

Education is the ultimate defence against the sharks. For so long as your contracts with them are voluntary, it's ultimately your choice if you get eaten.

I still think that there are some things that are just immoral. Good businessmen--and good men in general--know the difference between scamming and fraud, and honorable practices.

This is not the type of behavior that a good man should engage in. It's trafficking in debt slavery.

I don't subscribe to the idea that it's OK to exploit someone just because they are desperate, stupid, or uneducated.

What these two guys were doing is immoral and unethical, in my opinion. There are inherent principles of justice, fairness, and decency that every man in society is bound by. These guys violated those principles.

There's nothing wrong with healthy competition. There is nothing wrong with normal business "puffery" up to a point. But at some point, lines can get crossed.

Where that line is drawn, is the the provenance of ethical debate.

What these guys don't yet know is that there will be a heavy price to be paid for all this. And the wages are extracted from one's soul.

Post: #14

This whole discussion reminds me of the last real job I had in the chemical field. Imagine you are living in a small mountain town ruled over by good King Ludwig who is getting on in years, but treats his people well. Then you wake up one morning the Borgia clan have seized power and troops are executing peasants in the street. This is what it was like to work for a small, well-meaning company that was bought out by a company much larger that had the morals of Genghis Khan.
Personally, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near these guys when the hammer of fate falls.

Post: #15

(10-07-2015 11:42 AM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  I don't subscribe to the idea that it's OK to exploit someone just because they are desperate, stupid, or uneducated.

What these two guys were doing is immoral and unethical, in my opinion. There are inherent principles of justice, fairness, and decency that every man in society is bound by. These guys violated those principles.

There's nothing wrong with healthy competition. There is nothing wrong with normal business "puffery" up to a point. But at some point, lines can get crossed.

Where that line is drawn, is the the provenance of ethical debate.

What these guys don't yet know is that there will be a heavy price to be paid for all this. And the wages are extracted from one's soul.

It's certainly 'dirty work'. I'd feel pretty uncomfortable dealing in it, and the money would certainly feel 'dirty'. But life is unfair, always has been an always will be.

The issue is that whenever someone stands up to claim that he will 'remedy the injustice', he is always without exception a shark himself. He uses these rhetorical devices to rally people behind him, not because he genuinely believes he is helping them, but because of his own ambitions.

As dirty as these men seem, they do perform an important role in the economy: they catalyze business death. They finish off unproductive businesses faster than would otherwise have been the case. They thereby release workers, land, and equipment to more valuable uses, faster. These factors can then be sooner put to use elsewhere, by more effective businessmen. In a way they are the morticians of the economy. "Icky", but if they weren't there there would be other problems.

Post: #16

And from what I have read in this article it shows the dangers of tribalism. It will destroy human civilization if left to run unchecked.

Post: #17

(10-07-2015 11:42 AM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

(10-07-2015 11:30 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

(10-07-2015 10:27 AM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  To me this type of situation raises the age-old debate about ethics: at what point does normal self-interest become exploitation?

There's never been any difference. Business is always a competition. The smart men profit more from deals than the stupid men. Not just in loans, but everything. The more savvy the businessman, the more he can move contracts closer to his advantage. It's like chess - if the other guy doesn't spot what you have in mind, you'll win, and vice versa.

This is why education is so important. It's easy to view this story merely in its narrow context, tailored by the author to fit the tone he wants it to have, but the question is "why did the counter-parties accept?". Why did they chose that option instead of just closing shop? Had they done so, they would've kept the remaining money that the loan sharkers received instead. Why weren't they taught in school about basic business practices, instead of worthless crap they'll never use?

Education is the ultimate defence against the sharks. For so long as your contracts with them are voluntary, it's ultimately your choice if you get eaten.

I still think that there are some things that are just immoral. Good businessmen--and good men in general--know the difference between scamming and fraud, and honorable practices.

This is not the type of behavior that a good man should engage in. It's trafficking in debt slavery.

I don't subscribe to the idea that it's OK to exploit someone just because they are desperate, stupid, or uneducated.

What these two guys were doing is immoral and unethical, in my opinion. There are inherent principles of justice, fairness, and decency that every man in society is bound by. These guys violated those principles.

There's nothing wrong with healthy competition. There is nothing wrong with normal business "puffery" up to a point. But at some point, lines can get crossed.

Where that line is drawn, is the the provenance of ethical debate.

What these guys don't yet know is that there will be a heavy price to be paid for all this. And the wages are extracted from one's soul.

Its actually worse than that. In the 80's, someone became wealthy because the developed a new computer or new kind of semiconductor device. Today, you read about guys becoming wealthy because the developed a better method of "business finance" which is little more than loan-sharkary.

The turning point was the late 90's, when the from something real to business services and the like occurred.

Post: #18

(10-07-2015 10:27 AM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  To me this type of situation raises the age-old debate about ethics: at what point does normal self-interest become exploitation?

I think this crosses the line. Charging 400% interest on small loans is worse than those payday loans or check cashing places. Just because it may have been "legal" doesn't make it right. It's blood money, and it's tainted.

Are they wealthy? Yes. Do I envy these men? No. I do not.

What is acquired through corruption, blossoms in corruption. Don't participate in evil, guys. Keep away from people like this. This is not the type of thing that a good man does.

Are they honorable? No, not in my opinion. These men acquired their wealth in an immoral way, and there will be a price to be paid for that, somewhere down the road in their lives. It may not happen soon. But at some point, what comes around, goes around.

I agree 100%. It's relatively easy to come up with schemes to steal money from others "legally". I've had opportunities all the time to do this. I think it's important to have morals and ethics when doing business. If everyone is out screwing everyone else, not much business will be possible. I don't know if karma will ever come around for these guys, but I hope it does. If for no other reason so that they can't do this again.

Post: #19

They remind of a guy I worked with for a week or so a few months back. Took nearly £3M in investors money than asked me to launder it for him. Some guys are just hustlers and prey on the weak. Image is everything to them and if you can see the cracks in their appearance the whole house comes tumbling down. Shark I worked with had so many fronts but none of them were doing anything. He had about 10 different companies all trading amongst each other to make sales look like they were high. Basically he was selling nothing to each of the companies at a significant markup all of which was offset against one company making an equal loss to the profits that had been hidden from the portfolio (omitted the information). He would get away with that because the loss making company was under a different name to the others. His name was not attached to any of the companies despite controlling them. Then "sells" the portfolio to investors and pockets the cash and moves to another country to do it all again. I never got paid.

Post: #20

Quote: I never got paid.

First rule: get paid first.

Many years ago I worked at the financial branch of one of the worlds oldests corporations. Their tactics where straight up the modern equivalent of vikings raiding small villages. 150% interest rates on department store cards and shitty, useless services.

We where heavily pressured to upsell any customer (actually, victims) to a crap "insurance" that provided no actual coverage or value and eroded away their money with a bunch of hidden fees. My job was actually dealing with unruly "customers" when they realized they where being hustled, keeping them in the loop and signing them up to some other additional "service".

What did I got out in exchange of my soul? 2 bucks per kill. I hated every minute I worked there. I would wake up wishing something happened, flooding, meteorite crash, zombie outbreak, anything, just so I wouldnt had to work that day. I spent everynight partying and drinking my blood money to numb the vast emptiness my life had become.

I got my life back when I quitted.

Post: #21

The most important (missed) point here is Puerto Rico.

Best tax incentives to move yourself or your business there in the world.

When I have time I will do a datasheet.

Post: #22

What's all this stuff about karma? Believing in karma is just the same as being religious or believing in the tooth fairy. Read American Desperado, the autobiography of one of the worst people in history, the man is still in a nice mansion living his dream after a life of pure evil. Or even better, go to Africa, full of good people who get absolute crap in life.

If you feel these guys did wrong, better go pay them a visit and kick them in the balls. They don't give a shit about karma and neither should you.

Post: #23

(10-07-2015 05:39 PM)offthereservation Wrote:  The most important (missed) point here is Puerto Rico.

Best tax incentives to move yourself or your business there in the world.

When I have time I will do a datasheet.

I was going to mention the same thing. Puerto Rico is the only place in the world where US persons can legally avoid paying US taxes. There are likely local taxes to be paid, and I don't know all the details which I'm sure you can cover in your datasheet. What I do know is that a number of hedge fund managers and other finance guys move to PR take advantage of this loophole.

Post: #24

I was in the brokerage business for more than a decade.
My first 2 years I learned phone sales from the absolute best in the world.
We were extremely aggressive.
We would get people to send us 3-5k to gamble in the markets. And then we'd push them to send us 50-100k. On one bet.

We placed all or nothing bets.
In 6 months either you lost it all Or in 6 weeks you tripled your money. Little in between.

We made 700 cold calls a day.
We pounded the phone till our fingers bled.

But - we were legit. Our customers knew they were taking big risks ...sometimes they won and sometimes they lost. Timing is everything.

The commissions never stopped - the beauty of being the broker.
But the best was when the trades would hit. It would be like press your bets at the craps table time. That was where everyone made a ton of dough. The broker made huge rips and if you could press and win again the customer would knock it out of the park.

Great times....

Post: #25

(10-07-2015 09:41 AM)Easy_C Wrote:  Boat shoes?

Douchey cargo shorts?

Untuckked and unbotted button shirts?

At least one item in pink?

Check on all counts. These guys look exactly like the preppy, leftist douchebags that infest college towns.

Pretty standard summer gear for young men in the UK, especially amongst football/rugby team guys. Definitely not typical SJW-gear here, so that's an interesting cultural difference

Maybe American lefties try to imitate European fashion?