Post: #1

I am a sophomore in college and am currently studying law. I know that pretty soon will be choosing a certain field to go in depth and probably will lead to my major. So if there are any lawyers, what type of lawyer are you... and, what type of lawyer do you thing earns the most vs the amount of work he has to do.

Post: #2

Post: #3

My mother is a criminal lawyer. She wishes she studied international trade law and locked down a couple of shipping companies when she was fresh out of college.

Or you can study intellectual property law and look for work in the Silicon Valley as there's a lot of money being thrown around in the area.

If I'm not mistaken, these two are the highest paid.

Post: #4

(01-05-2016 03:15 AM)the Thing Wrote:  My mother is a criminal lawyer. She wishes she studied international trade law and locked down a couple of shipping companies when she was fresh out of college.

Or you can study intellectual property law and look for work in the Silicon Valley as there's a lot of money being thrown around in the area.

If I'm not mistaken, these two are the highest paid.

I'm not a lawyer but he's spot on.
The biggest cash is in:
Intellectual property;
Mergers and acquisitions;
Mining law;
Commercial law (business contracts, trade, buying and selling etc.)

I think other posters will add a few more.

These are specialised fields, so you'll definitely have to structure your future studies appropriately.

Post: #5

By definition, "passion" is a highly individual and personal question. It is also uncommon in life in general.
Furthermore, it is rare in terms of paid work.
Lastly, it is exceedingly rare in the field of law. Seriously, law is generally not something people enjoy doing, and you should be well aware about this.
I have met three lawyers in my life who were passionate about what they did. The vast majority absolutely hated their jobs and work lives with extreme bitterness. And these were successful people who went to top universities and joined elite law firms. I think other lawyers have equally shitty work lives and just get paid a whole lot less.

So.....the three lawyers who were/are passionate about what they do.

1. My uncle. Famous, very wealthy. Co founded a major law firm that now has hundreds of lawyers. Confided to me that he chose law because my grandfather forced him to choose a "respectable" profession, and that the first five years of his career when he was a grunt at a huge firm he hated the practice of law. He developed a passion when the firm he founded took off, and he was in control of his own destiny.

2. Family friend. Somewhat famous, wealthy. Brilliant and charismatic, skilled trial lawyer with 3 or 4 of the top ten verdicts ever in the state he practices in. He has always liked law, and has always seen himself as a crusader seeking justice, and his talent and success at trial gave him control of his own destiny. He has a boutique firm with a couple partners and a few associates.

3. Father of a close friend. Not famous, moderately wealthy (late career he makes 1MM in a good year). Brilliant and charismatic, LOTS of energy. He went to a shitty 3rd tier law school, but had a passion for law and great people skills. Ended up working in real estate law, small boutique firm with a couple partners, a few associates, high degree of control over his own destiny.

So, passion in law seems, like many other things, to come from not working for someone else, and from having control over your destiny, lots of financial success, respect of peers, etc.

Post: #6

A banking and finance lawyer here. In general, at least in India (and I imagine it would be no different in UK and US) it is the M&A/Capital Markets lawyers that earn the most. Do however keep your future in mind- it is very tough to start a Capital Markets practice as an individual- big corporations and well paying clients, for various reasons, prefer enforceability opinions, signed by well known and bigger law firms and prefer having their agreements drafted by them as well. As a small fish in capital markets practice, it usually is a matter of time before either your stronger opponents start a "fee war" with you, thus driving you out of market or you get an offer from bigger firms to absorb your practice, which generally does not end well for the individual(s) whose practice is absorbed . It is much easier to start your own tax/real estate/will and succession planning practice. M&A guys also tend to work crazy hours, though they are allowed some rest after particularly taxing assignments and the start of financial year also tends to be relatively easy. My advice would be to intern in 2-3 different practice areas(I suggest capital markets, tax, dispute resolution/litigation) to get a hang of things. Do make sure that you take initiative during those internships and execute the assignments given to you as well as you can.

Post: #7

One of the difficulties in answering your question is that the practice of law is quite different in the various countries. What may be helpful in the US is totally irrelevant in Colombia, where I presume you are. For example, in many countries law is an undergrad major, while in the US you need to have an undergraduate degree first and law is a graduate degree.

I would say if you are concerned about the amount of work you may have to do, then law may not be the area for you. It is not a field for sitting around twiddling your thumbs.

I would try to find some lawyers who actually practice where you intend to practice and seek their advice.

Post: #8

In my experience, people who are passionate about law are the sort of people you should try very hard to avoid at dinner parties.

There are areas that are academically interesting, such as trust law (only some jurisdictions), and there are areas that are stimulating and give you the potential to do genuine good, such as criminal law. However, the law itself, whatever the discipline, is unlikely to be something you're passionate about. The satisfaction will come from indulging certain quirks of character, the law itself will merely be a more or less appropriate vehicle for doing so.

To use the examples above, very loosely trust law appeals to those who enjoy juggling nuance, very subtle argument, and the ability to construct detailed and expansive academic arguments (perhaps more than any other area of law, trust law is a battle of wits - a sort of legal cat and mouse) - but fundamentally it's intellectual masturbation.

Criminal law provides a vehicle for those with a strong predilection for doing good on behalf of others. It also provides a vehicle for those who enjoy having power over others, and enjoy having the freedom of vulnerable people in their hands. In my experience of criminal lawyers, it's a pretty even split. You'll see some of the best and worst examples of humanity in the criminal court - not in the dock, but on the benches.

Of course, there is no reason you should be pigeon-holed, we all have many quirks and virtues, and many different branches of the law will give you an outlet for satisfying those. If you find yourself passionate about the law itself, please join the MGTOW movement and abandon all thoughts of progeny. Having spent many years at university with people who love the law, the last thing the world needs is the pitter patter of more law-loving tiny feet.

Post: #9

Redacted

Post: #10

(01-05-2016 01:16 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  In my experience, people who are passionate about law are the sort of people you should try very hard to avoid at dinner parties.

Post: #11

(01-05-2016 01:16 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  In my experience, people who are passionate about law are the sort of people you should try very hard to avoid at dinner parties.

There are areas that are academically interesting, such as trust law (only some jurisdictions), and there are areas that are stimulating and give you the potential to do genuine good, such as criminal law. However, the law itself, whatever the discipline, is unlikely to be something you're passionate about. The satisfaction will come from indulging certain quirks of character, the law itself will merely be a more or less appropriate vehicle for doing so.

To use the examples above, very loosely trust law appeals to those who enjoy juggling nuance, very subtle argument, and the ability to construct detailed and expansive academic arguments (perhaps more than any other area of law, trust law is a battle of wits - a sort of legal cat and mouse) - but fundamentally it's intellectual masturbation.

Criminal law provides a vehicle for those with a strong predilection for doing good on behalf of others. It also provides a vehicle for those who enjoy having power over others, and enjoy having the freedom of vulnerable people in their hands. In my experience of criminal lawyers, it's a pretty even split. You'll see some of the best and worst examples of humanity in the criminal court - not in the dock, but on the benches.

Of course, there is no reason you should be pigeon-holed, we all have many quirks and virtues, and many different branches of the law will give you an outlet for satisfying those. If you find yourself passionate about the law itself, please join the MGTOW movement and abandon all thoughts of progeny. Having spent many years at university with people who love the law, the last thing the world needs is the pitter patter of more law-loving tiny feet.

Amen. The worst of it is that almost half of the US Congress has a law background.

Post: #12

There are two main areas a lawyer can work: litigation and consultation.

Litigation: traditional lawyer from the movies. It sucks. It will burn you out. You will always be shouting. In my opinion the pay is lower than consulting. Even though you have the possibility of negotiating a success fee with the client. Areas which pay more are probably criminal. Criminal law is really though. Who are the criminals can afford to pay high legal fees? drug dealers.
I don´t do litigation because I hate to be at the disposal of judges. They set your calendar. And you can´t postpone a trial just because.
Another problem with litigation is a day only has 24hours. If you bill per hour even your maximum billing will never surpass 24hours. If you charge let´s say 200€*24= 4800. In litigation even if you work 24hours, you will never win more than 4800€ in one day. Say you work 10h. 200€*10*30*60000€/month. There are other options of billing. But this is the most common. Nevertheless you can add a contingency fee.

When you start working normally your put in debt collection. It´s the lowest of the law fields.

A court ruling is not always related with merit. Other occult factors can influence. You will always be in contact with the government (through courts). Probably this was the aspect I least enjoyed with litigation. Specially the higher courts which can overturn a rigtheous decision.


Consultation: It´s where the money is. Your value will not depend so much of your merit but who you know. You will not work by hour. But in a flat rate basis. This means you can earn 5000€ by forwarding two emails. You receive an email from a client. Forward to a partner. The partner answers the question and reply with the answer. And you forward the answer to the client. Pay 1000€ to the partner and keep 4000€ with two clicks. I´m simplifying saying it´s two clicks because a lot of work must be done prior. Finding the client and the right partner is not easy. Your a Linklater. You build bridges between people. And charge for the bridge. You connect dots. And charge for connecting the dots. There´s a brokerage aspect of it.

Which areas are the best for consultation. Areas with big numbers. Corporate, oil, metals, real estate, etc.

In my opinion the easiest area to get into is real estate. The due diligence is standard. And agreements are standard also. After dealing with 10 due diligences you know the basics. The most important thing in due diligence is evaluating the people in front of you. If they look like scammers double check everything.
Real estate lawyers charge 1,2% of the house price. That´s 12k´s for due diligence in a 1M house. Plus a brokerage fee if you introduce the buyer or the seller. Which can vary from 1% to 2,5% paid by the owner or real estate agency. But legal fees and not brokerage fees should be the aim. Brokerage fees are a plus not essential. If they come better.

The biggest issue with luxury real estate is it´s associated with money laundering schemes. Refuse to deal with any live money transaction. Better passing it though banks and blame them for money laundering. Or when there´s a risk higher then normal. Let´s say a person buy a 5M building with the intent of reselling it to other buyers for 10M. But instead of buying the building he only wants to advance 1M in a promissory agreement with the real owner. The potential buyers need to be fully aware of the risks of giving a downpayment of a house which does'n´t belong to the person who is selling. It´s legal for you to promise to sell a house which doesn´t belong to you.

The same principles apply to corporate. Real estate is the template of every legal transaction. Specially with the buying and selling of companies.

Same here. One company is being sold. You present the buyer. Being paid for the selling agreement and the brokerage. Incorporation of companies are also generally easy. Unless there´s special details.

Real estate is more fun. Corporate is more rigid in terms of professional relationships. And requires bigger teams to deal with the amount of paperwork of any transaction. Also it´s a lot to do with prestige/image.

My portfolio consists of 90% of international clients. The reason is simple they pay more and are less demanding. Downside is dealing with the general lack of respect other agents have regarding your client. From the beginning they need to realize you will not allow any bullshit with your client. The con is dealing with the government in any immigration issues your client might have. And everything connected with the government, just like courts are not always straightforward. You can outsource this. But better keep control of the client. Immigration legal issues are at the same level of debt collection. Toilet paper.

The least amount of connections your work has with the government the better. You can avoid all the backstage moves surrounding it.

The most influential factor for the success of a lawyer it´s his network. Either in litigation or consultation. Your focus is network. Do favors without asking nothing back. Do it incessantly. They will be your referrals and open doors for you in the future. In every ten favors you do. One will pay you back.

I once had a trainee who told me hid dream was to live in a remote house. I´ve realized when he said this he would never be a successful lawyer. You need to be in the middle of the people. At least in the beginning.

My advice is: Network like crazy. That guy you had lunch with one day will be a member of the parliament. The other one will be a tax inspector. That girl who smiles to you one day will be a judge. The other one prosecutor. Others will work in banks. You see that black guy you play football with. He will one day work in one of the biggest law firm of an african country. And when you have a client willing to invest in said country. You will forward him an email. Pay him 1000€ and get 4000€ for his reply.

If I would go back to law school my advice to myself would be get numbers and emails. One day they will be worth a lot. Even though I did get some, since I was like a stray dog, whenever there was action I would go, in retrospective I could have done more.

My 2 cents...

Post: #13

(01-04-2016 09:53 PM)joecolombia Wrote:  I am a sophomore in college and am currently studying law. I know that pretty soon will be choosing a certain field to go in depth and probably will lead to my major. So if there are any lawyers, what type of lawyer are you... and, what type of lawyer do you thing earns the most vs the amount of work he has to do.

Sounds like you're writing from Colombia, but you're getting advice from Americans as to the practice of law in America. I suspect this is less useful to you than you may think it is.

If I'm wrong about that, let me know and I'll give you my thoughts.

Post: #14

First of all of the responses have been really good and interesting. As a matter of fact, I don`t mind the practice another type of law, like the common law of federal law, since the practices they are advicing me to go into are really similar to the actual practice we have in colombia... maybe a different method but the parties involve, cost of the process and the knowledge must be in the same degree.

I really use to like the penal field. That is, where you defend someone for comitting a crime (I don`t really know if that`s the proper word in english) but being that type of lawyer in Colombia brings to issues into account.

1. in order to earn big, you will have to be a well known lawyer or someone coming from a prestigious line of lawyers (whole families study law)

2. you are facing the dangers of the penal system in Colombia. If you loose a case, and your client is a drug lord, killer, etc. there is a good chance you end up killed or kinapped or god knows what.


comercial law sounds interesting, but i guess the proceses may take quite a long time. I really like the idea of suing the goverment and winning and absurd amount of cash.

I don`t mean that i don`t intend to work, i just know that there are some fields of law where the job is so intense you will not have time for nothing else.

Post: #15

Hello Joe.

I am studying international law (and about to finish). This might be, in my opinion, at least, the best, because you will be quite mobile ( because, of course, the intl. law is applicable everywhere.) Anything inside that field is good.

Avoid criminal law - one of my parents works in a legal field and this is her advice basically. You mentioned its drawbacks - you might be in trouble if you lose, or the opposing side will silence you if you become quite a successful one. Practice anything else but criminal law

Post: #16

I knew a Maritime Lawyer. Made a lot.

Post: #17

You can make a lot in any field of law just about. Its not necessarily about how good you are either though obviously being good helps.

Do what interests you. That is where you will most likely succeed.

I am in litigation. It's stressful and time consuming.

Honestly if anyone is reading this with the dreams of early financial independence. DO NOT GO INTO LAW. You will be in school too long. Lawyers aren't rich until they are older typically. Meanwhile I have clients who have 2 Million + in there early 30's. Why? They started businesses in there early 20's. In law you are in school too long to get rich young and likely lots of debt.