Post: #1

I realized that I wasted too many years on lifting weights, useless squats and deadlifts etc after I did some sparring sessions and saw guys that almost never lifted kick every ones asses.
Anyone had the same thought?

Post: #2

Are you trying to troll or actually asking that?

You are comparing two very different things. Guys who have trained will be faster and be able to land and avoid hits far better than someone who has never trained before. That said, a pro wrestler would more than likely wreck a kick boxer just do to the sheer size difference should he ever get a hold of him.

What are your goals? Why did you lift?

Assuming you are a big guy, you probably have shit for stamina. That comes in time from training in combat arts, you probably also have very little idea as to how and when you should use your power. Did you try to go 100% from the start and get winded within 20 seconds? I would put money down that that is what happened to you.

Post: #3

(01-12-2016 04:38 AM)cascadecombo Wrote:  Are you trying to troll or actually asking that?

You are comparing two very different things. Guys who have trained will be faster and be able to land and avoid hits far better than someone who has never trained before. That said, a pro wrestler would more than likely wreck a kick boxer just do to the sheer size difference should he ever get a hold of him.

What are your goals? Why did you lift?

Assuming you are a big guy, you probably have shit for stamina. That comes in time from training in combat arts, you probably also have very little idea as to how and when you should use your power. Did you try to go 100% from the start and get winded within 20 seconds? I would put money down that that is what happened to you.

Actually I'm not big at all, around welterweight category and in a good shape because of the lifting, but could only do 1 minute of sparring

Post: #4

Fighters deadlift and squat. Check out any number of Jon Jones videos I:E: One of if not the baddest dude on the planet.

Post: #5

I dont think this is a troll quesiton at all my uncle was a golden gloves boxer, and a member of the US boxing team until he broke his wrist (this was back in the day Mike Tyson was one of his team mates). He regularly says "Ive never lifted a weight in my life" which is mind boggling because to this day he has the body of a greek god at the age of 48-49 as still fast as lightning. With that being said training for fighting and training for the sake of getting big etc... are two entirely different ways of training

Post: #6

Well...kicking someone's ass is very situational.

In a boxing ring, excess muscle and no stamina is clearly not ideal.

In a small room with no rules? My money would be on the weightlifter.

It's all situational. Always.

If I had a £ for every martial artist that has been given a hiding by a huge bouncer in a bar or nightclub I'd be a very, very rich man.

Post: #7

(01-12-2016 05:10 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  Well...kicking someone's ass is very situational.

In a boxing ring, excess muscle and no stamina is clearly not ideal.

In a small room with no rules? My money would be on the weightlifter.

It's all situational. Always.

If I had a £ for every martial artist that has been given a hiding by a huge bouncer in a bar or nightclub I'd be a very, very rich man.

Isn't that the truth.

The baddest guy on the planet isn't going to ride a good shot he doesn't see coming, or a clean strike to the temple/point of the chin with a house brick.

Being bigger is always an advantage. Being able to fight is always an advantage. But anyone can lose a fight, any man can be beaten. There's plenty of big bad guys who are tremendous athletes and fighters who lost fights because a smaller, weaker, less trained individual decided to escalate up the force continuum first.

I'll stand by the statement that being big is always better, and being skilled is always better, but in a way it can give you a false confidence. A guy who is 130lbs of bad intentions isn't going to get into a wrestling match with a 225lb fighter, he is just going to stab you or blindside you with a blunt object. Fair fights happen in a ring. Outside the ring, however big and bad you are, you're pretty much playing the lottery if you go looking for trouble.

An amusing anecdote - I saw a regional middleweight boxing champion I trained with, who was a seriously bad dude with a high knockout rate and plenty of fights, get rocked and nearly put on his arse by a girl who'd got 6 months training under her belt, because they were horsing around, and she threw a playful shot harder than she realised when he was not looking. His legs went for a second and he staggered. He wasn't 'hurt', but in different circumstances, against someone who wasn't 105lbs soaking wet, and who wanted to finish him, he would have gone - as seasoned as he was.

Post: #8

(01-12-2016 07:29 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  An amusing anecdote - I saw a regional middleweight boxing champion I trained with, who was a seriously bad dude with a high knockout rate and plenty of fights, get rocked and nearly put on his arse by a girl who'd got 6 months training under her belt, because they were horsing around, and she threw a playful shot harder than she realised when he was not looking. His legs went for a second and he staggered. He wasn't 'hurt', but in different circumstances, against someone who wasn't 105lbs soaking wet, and who wanted to finish him, he would have gone - as seasoned as he was.

I don't know whether I've shared this before on here but I'll tell it again anyway. It's almost an identical story!

A few years back I was teaching some weapons defence or other to a group of students. Anyway, I was showing a youngish girl, maybe 55kg, how hard it is to wrestle a weapon off a man more than twice her weight (me).

She really got into it and without thinking removed a hand from the weapon and punched me in the jaw. It was purely instinctive and was the last thing I was expecting; I was half looking around the room at what everyone else was doing and it caught me completely by surprise.

For at least a minute I didn't really know who I was or what I was doing. The room was spinning. There was no way I could adequately defend myself if the attack had continued.


Re the thread:

I have a very, very good kick boxer in my stable. 70kg and a dangerous guy when in the ring.

He is forever getting beaten to a pulp by club doormen (he has a screw loose and goes mental after a few drinks).

There is just no way he can compete in that environment with guys who are most certainly not trained fighters (beyond the odd "MMA" back yard training session I suspect) but who are 120kg+ and can crush his head with one hand.

Post: #9

One of the first things while doing a demonstration with my former martial art was never, never, never give a weapon to someone you don't know and say: "Okay, now hit me as hard as you can."

Post: #10

Wait, are you saying I, with my 5'9" and 170 pound frame, can squat 300 pounds, that I can't kick a guy's ass who's 6'8" 350?

Shit what a waste of time, I'm going to quit lifting.

Post: #11

Being able to kick someone's ass physically is not the be all and end all in the world.

Some bitter nerd who does judo 4 times a week might be able to win a fight against the biggest jock/chad in the year, but that guy could get any woman over him.

He could also smash the face in of the smartest guy in the year, but he'll be making 300K in a few years.

He could pummel a rich politician's son, who will grow up to have connections and be powerful.

So what you see is that although being able to win a fight is obviously great in the short term, unless you are super talented, you are going to be losing in other fronts, which are far more important.

Fight for fun, not to be some kind of loser who takes pleasure out of posting on the internet 'I could beat up any guy in x place'.

Post: #12

Boxers and other combat athletes tend to do a lot more in the way of calisthenics than lifting.

Post: #13

(01-12-2016 01:05 PM)britchard Wrote:  Being able to kick someone's ass physically is not the be all and end all in the world.

Some bitter nerd who does judo 4 times a week might be able to win a fight against the biggest jock/chad in the year, but that guy could get any woman over him.

He could also smash the face in of the smartest guy in the year, but he'll be making 300K in a few years.

He could pummel a rich politician's son, who will grow up to have connections and be powerful.

So what you see is that although being able to win a fight is obviously great in the short term, unless you are super talented, you are going to be losing in other fronts, which are far more important.

Fight for fun, not to be some kind of loser who takes pleasure out of posting on the internet 'I could beat up any guy in x place'.

I agree and disagree with this. I think you're right that taking pride in simply being a competent thug is, by itself, of limited value.

However, if you can't and won't fight for certain matters of principle, then your value as a man is of limited worth. You can rightly point to all kinds of politicians and businessmen who manage to get through life without demonstrating a capacity for violence, but there is a certain kind of cowardice in having other men do violence on your behalf out of necessity rather than out of prudence.

Your willingness to make a stand on principle, or to express opinions that need to be heard but that may get you hurt, defines you as a man. If you won't say things, or take action outside of your comfortable arena for fear of physical inadequacy, or an inability to defend yourself with tenacity and courage, then you are really only half a man. How you fight, and what you are willing to fight for, defines you far more as a man than whether you win or lose.

NB. you should always fight to win, not winning may get you killed.

Post: #14

It shouldn't be a surprise that strength training does not necessarily make you a better fighter.

Technique, speed, possessing a strong chin, "killer instinct", etc...are all far more significant.

That said, a guy who can deadlift 500+lbs is going to throw around an untrained guy like a rag doll. Strength helps - and it's definitely not wasted.

Post: #15

(01-12-2016 01:39 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  

(01-12-2016 01:05 PM)britchard Wrote:  Being able to kick someone's ass physically is not the be all and end all in the world.

Some bitter nerd who does judo 4 times a week might be able to win a fight against the biggest jock/chad in the year, but that guy could get any woman over him.

He could also smash the face in of the smartest guy in the year, but he'll be making 300K in a few years.

He could pummel a rich politician's son, who will grow up to have connections and be powerful.

So what you see is that although being able to win a fight is obviously great in the short term, unless you are super talented, you are going to be losing in other fronts, which are far more important.

Fight for fun, not to be some kind of loser who takes pleasure out of posting on the internet 'I could beat up any guy in x place'.

I agree and disagree with this. I think you're right that taking pride in simply being a competent thug is, by itself, of limited value.

However, if you can't and won't fight for certain matters of principle, then your value as a man is of limited worth. You can rightly point to all kinds of politicians and businessmen who manage to get through life without demonstrating a capacity for violence, but there is a certain kind of cowardice in having other men do violence on your behalf out of necessity rather than out of prudence.

Your willingness to make a stand on principle, or to express opinions that need to be heard but that may get you hurt, defines you as a man. If you won't say things, or take action outside of your comfortable arena for fear of physical inadequacy, or an inability to defend yourself with tenacity and courage, then you are really only half a man. How you fight, and what you are willing to fight for, defines you far more as a man than whether you win or lose.

NB. you should always fight to win, not winning may get you killed.

Yes, I do agree that there is a certain cowardice to getting others to do the dirty work for you. Especially when they don't have a choice (i.e. conscription/drafting).

I think mainly the point of my post was to say that I often see posts on the internet (not really here though) that say something along the lines of 'you're not a man if you don't fight/spar regularly'.

Post: #16

You can't escape training your mind when you move your body doing anything.

Elliot Hulse explains that while perfect form lifting will clearly create muscle, and with heavier weights, muscle + nervous system development, quite often lifters create "big dumb" muscles. Albeit, strong as fuck.

That's why, even though things like cross fit, any form of MMA or fighting, working a physical job are all difficult, they're "functional strength," which often include tons of "broken form" and more practical application.

Along with those practicalities, comes the mental dexterity and minute supporting muscles and neuro pathways, to use your body as a "useful" tool. How often in life outside the gym are you going to have to need the precise form-focused motions in the gym? Rarely if ever.

Post: #17

There's a simple explanation to that. The body adapts itself according to the physical activity that you're doing the most! A gymnast, arguably the fittest athletes on the planet, would probably have their quads burning from an intense Ice skating session, or a bike ride, while they would be in way better shape than them! And speaking of shape, it's such a subjective term! There's being in shape for wrestling, where some chubbiness does help, while being in shape for the Tour De France requires a sub 6% body fat level to even qualify for it! Both in shape, for way different goals!

Post: #18

Simple explanation is to train for a specific goal of your liking and discard what is not compatible.
You wouldn't spend half your time shooting free throws if you wanted to be the best kicker.
Similarly, if you want to fight well, train for that.

Post: #19

Hey guys I just realized I've been wasting my time doing sparring sessions. I tried to squat and they didn't help me at all.


Also, running track hasn't helped with my swimming, and learning how to cook steak hasn't helped my lasagna.

Post: #20

^Just to add to that, all the sluts I've been shagging of late haven't made me any more spiritual.

Why did I bother with them? Fuckin' waste of time!

Post: #21

OP, you weren't wasting time. You were in the gym slinging iron. That's not time wasted.

Time wasted is sitting on the internet trying to win arguments with people you're never going to meet and don't give a fuck about while you get fatter and weaker. Just because a few people off the street can walk into a boxing ring and school somebody on natural athleticism doesn't mean that time spent in the gym is wasted.

Post: #22

In a real life fight, stamina is pretty much useless. 99% of street or bar fights are over in around 30 seconds. Bouncers will often say if you want to be able to take care of yourself train the fuck out of one punch, get in first and hit fucking hard, as 9 times out of 10 that's all that's required.

Not laying any claims on that myself, just stuff i've heard from capable people i've known over the years lol.

Post: #23

(01-16-2016 05:34 PM)serpico Wrote:  In a real life fight, stamina is pretty much useless. 99% of street or bar fights are over in around 30 seconds. Bouncers will often say if you want to be able to take care of yourself train the fuck out of one punch, get in first and hit fucking hard, as 9 times out of 10 that's all that's required.

Not laying any claims on that myself, just stuff i've heard from capable people i've known over the years lol.

This is actually coming to light in the evolution of MMA standup, as with the smaller gloves not getting hit becomes more crucial. Guys like TJ Dillashaw and Dominic Cruz work on this a lot, and low and behold, they're fighting for the title. There have been guys who come into MMA from a Kickboxing background who's style lacks footwork and head movement (since the bigger gloves provide for more blocking) and they end up getting rocked w/ the 4 oz. gloves.

Post: #24

OP, how much training have you had in boxing?? I am guessing here.

I have lifted all my life since HS football, granted maybe I wasn't as smart about my process but I am glad I have done what I have done. I have been boxing 18 months and one point quit lifting for 6 months to box everyday. If you have not trained much in boxing (or MMA or whatever it is) I think it is highly unreasonable to expect yourself to do well.

How long have you been training??

Post: #25

(01-16-2016 05:34 PM)serpico Wrote:  In a real life fight, stamina is pretty much useless. 99% of street or bar fights are over in around 30 seconds. Bouncers will often say if you want to be able to take care of yourself train the fuck out of one punch, get in first and hit fucking hard, as 9 times out of 10 that's all that's required.

Not laying any claims on that myself, just stuff i've heard from capable people i've known over the years lol.

It's true, if you are able to land that one punch you trained the fuck out of you will be a flash KO king. The stamina part is so you can have the energy to survive and throw that knock out punch a second time should it for some reason fail to land initially.

Part of the reason I love sparring so much, you have a chance to push yourself close to your limit several times within a day. Take that 1HKO you have perfected and then build the stamina to use it against 30 white knights who follow you outside the club. After you win you can chase after them and tell them to "go home".