Post: #1

So I think I may have fucked shit up with my current friends with benefits situation. She's a cute 21 year old college student, not exceptionally hot, I'd rate at a 6.5, but she's smart and has a chill personality. Anyway we'd been hooking up for a month this winter, then she left on winter break for a month, and we've hooked up twice since she's been back in the past two weeks.

Anyhow yesterday she asked me for a favor, but didn't say what it was, when I asked her she gave me the whole story about this moldy couch that her and her roommates were given and now stuck with. She went on about how she was going to donate it, but when the people from the Salvation Army came they said they didn't want it. To make a long story short she wanted me to load it up in my truck and take it to the dump for her.

I told her I could help her out, but that it'd be a major hassle for me, my truck is a tank and her apartment complex has a tiny parking lot that's always packed with people coming and going. I basically told her that if she could find someone else who was down that was more local then to go with them. I also made it clear that I expected her to pay for the dump fee, and that it'd be cool if she kicked a little money for gas.

Right after I got off the phone I got this bad feeling like I came off like a total dick, and that she got a bad vibe from me, but then shrugged it off and figured that she'd still want my help. When I got up this morning I was kind of looking forward to helping her, and then weaseling her back to my place to get a bang afterwards.

Around noon she hits me up saying she got someone else to help her and that "now I won't have to be bother by it". I got back to her saying, that it was cool, but that I didn't mean to make a big deal about it over the phone, and that I'm down to help her.

She texted me back and while of course a lot cannot be inferred through text message, she seemed kind of upset, saying that she just wanted my help, and that it really seemed like I didn't want to help her, etc.

I know I'm completely over-analyzing, but it seems like she's upset and I'm kind of questioning whether this is enough for her to drift away. I kind of feel like a dick for not helping her out, but my initial feeling perhaps programmed from being jaded with women, is that moving furniture for a chick who isn't my girlfriend is some beta type shit.

That said she's a 21 year old college girl and I'm an older dude with a truck so helping her out is something that a guy in my situation should do. I guess I just kind of have a chip on my shoulder from my beta days when I'd always be doing favors for chicks, but often it would be a thankless task.

Now in this case I'm kind of kicking myself for not being cooler and nicer about helping her out. In the grand scheme of things I'm blowing it out of proportion, but just not sure what the best way to handle situations when girls are asking for favors.

Granted taking an old couch to the dump isn't a major favor to ask, but often women will take advantage of asking favors from a guy, and you need to somewhat take things into consideration. It probably mostly just boils down to the girl, the situation, and the favor. If she's a girl you're crushing on that isn't putting out, then you should tell her to find someone else, but if she's a cool chick that you've been hanging out with and banging then you're probably better off helping her out.

At this point I'm going to hit her up after the gym, ask how things went, then tell her I feel bad for not helping, and tell her I want to buy her a drink to make it up to her. That might have kind of an apologetic beta ring to it, but that's what I'm feeling. If she's put off by the whole thing and goes cold on me then so be it, I'd already been sensing a bit of distance after the last bang. Sometimes if you make one misstep you can fuck things up, but in the end you just got to let it go and roll with the punches.

Post: #2

Maintain your frame. You gave her a generous enough offer as it was, there's no need to apologize for that. If you're feeling her pull away don't go chasing after her. Back off yourself and she'll likely come around. Or she won't - but that's kind of where you're at right now anyway.

Post: #3

Doing favors for attention whores is beta. I don't think there's anything wrong with doing favors for a girl who is cleaning your pipes.

Post: #4

If it is something easy that I can do and it doesn't create a big hassle for you, I do it and don't make a big deal of it. Because it was easy for me, and I was able to help her so easily, I score points and don't appear "beta".

This almost always leads to great sex later.

Post: #5

Yeah stop tripping, minimize this as best you can. Don't apologize or feel bad.

I would've jokingly asked for road head on the way to the dump as a favor.

The "nobody rides for free" line.

Doing little shit here and there is fine, this is another reason I keep plates strictly to the bedroom and we rarely if at all go out.

Post: #6

I've made this mistake a bunch of times. Where you give so little fucks that they actually dump you.

My opinion is that it's okay to do some favors for girls you want to keep around, or ones you're actually friends with. If you truly don't give a fuck, do nothing but they'll eventually dump you.

It's different if you're doing favors for a chick in hopes of getting laid, because it will never happen.

It's one thing not to be a doormat. However, when you're a total unrepent douche with chicks you're banging, it makes them feel like slam pigs.

Post: #7

This resonates with me and I've been the same way.

Fear of being beta and coming across as a doormat is a big reason why a lot of dudes will go overboard the opposite direction. Once a girl asks for something you go on autopilot like the Manchurian candidate making it clear you want nothing to do with with doing favors.

I did this same thing with a girl asking if I could help her with an oil change a couple years ago. I gave her shit about it even though the reason she brought it up was because I just got done telling her how I like working on cars and changing oil ain't shit. Needless to say she got upset because I turned down doing her that favor because I was dead set on not going out of my way for women unless it benefits me.

Then I realized I was being a dick. Changing oil wasn't that big of a deal and I liked the girl. No reason not to do a simple favor. She got had gone out of her way plenty of times for me. I could even have involved her in it and made a fun thing out of it.

Its okay to do shit for girls you like, just be aware of the relationship. If she is just some fuck buddy who comes over and bangs and thats basically it then there's really no reason to move the terms beyond that (unless you want to). If she is just a fuck buddy and she starts asking you for shit she is probably just gauging your interest level in her beyond just sex.

Now if she is a girl you have been seeing semi-seriously then doing things for eachother comes with the territory. Just make sure she is earning her keep and her end of the relationship is kept up. If you see her doing a lot of asking and not a lot of giving then don't oblige that freeloader.

Post: #8

In those situations, I ask myself, "Would I do this for a friend?" If the answer is yes, and it's not too much trouble, than I do it.

However, I would expect my friend to pay the "dump fee" and gas if it's something significant. Only fair.

Since you mentioned she was already distancing herself from you before this ask occurred, then it's possible she was testing you. What was the purpose of the test? Maybe she wanted to see if you would be of more use to her than just a bang. Maybe she wanted you to be more of a boyfriend to her. Maybe she was looking for a reason to "dump" you so she decided to start making demands. Those are just guesses, I don't really know.

It is interesting the whole thing was about taking something that's old and worn-out and dumping it. Whether that was your fwb relationship, or some other relationship she was having, only she knows.

I don't think you need to apologize to her. You did nothing wrong.

Post: #9

I'm going to go against the grain here, OG.

Honestly, I probably would have gladly helped her, just like I would have helped anyone else who needed such a favor. That's just the kind of person I am, though, and it has zero to do with the pussy.

Unless you're strapped for the loot, it seems a little prickly to mention the gas money - just like with anyone else, that kind of thing goes without saying, so I'd generally let her offer on the trip and if she doesn't, well you've learned something about her. I can't see how the dump fee, especially, wouldn't have been a given, so it's a bit anal that you brought it up.

Yes, be aware of your motives, and be aware if someone is taking advantage of your generosity, but I'd be careful about being this on guard myself. Helping women (or anyone) doesn't have to come from a place of weakness and supplication.

If you felt like a dick as soon as you got of the phone, it's very possible you were. You may have burned the bridge on this one, but then you may not have; either way, not the end of the world if she's a 6.5.

As far as the hassle involved, sure, it's okay to refuse favors if it's really inconvenient, but it sounds like you could have used more diplomacy in your explanation and not focused on the money thing if that wasn't the real issue at hand. Yes, it's your time and your choice in the end; personally, I don't bang people on the regular that I don't somewhat like as a person and I'm therefore willing to help when i can.

If that's not you, that's fine. Plenty guys here will say no explanation needed and maintain your frame. Sure, but certainly don't be surprised if it results in social consequences in one way or another. We can go on about pussy passes, but that's all I see here. You can usually get a read on a girl if she's milking the system.

EDIT: I saw Onto's comment about her distancing herself prior to this. Knowing your location and the girls you mack on, I'm assuming you only haven't hung out because she was home for the holidays and only recently returned to school.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #10

I second BB. That's very small favor. I have no idea why you make a big deal out of it. I'd help her if I had time without asking for anything back [cash for has? whoa..]. And guess what would happen after coming back home with her?

Besides it's not like helping a girl you sleep with is some kind of humiliating act man.

Post: #11

And what favors has she done for you?

Her giving up the pussy isn't doing you a favor; you are doing her the favor by giving her the dick.

Girls are Jedi Masters at getting men to do shit for them without paying for it in some way. Helping a LTR or potential LTR is one thing. A new FWB? Gotta be fuckin kidding me.

Usually my FWBs are offering to do shit for me. Free vacations, nice home cooked meals where they pay for all food, paying for take-out, rides to the airport/wherever, etc.

I think the most I'll do for a FWB is pick up some food en-route to their place. They ask for anything more and I tell them straight up: "I ain't your fuckin boyfriend."

Post: #12

Seems like you made two slight mistakes: being a bit of a dick in the first place and then apologizing later. Don't be inconsistent or indecisive so she sees it. Still, I don't think this will make any difference if she is really into you. If she's not that into you or has a dramatic personality she might keep giving you shit about it.

Mainly just do what you want. As you say this girl is really not that hot and should be replaceable.

If a girl ask me for a favor without specifying what it is, I will usually say either "no" or "probably not." That doesn't mean I won't help them after they specify what they need, but it sets up the right frame I think.

Post: #13

One girl recently asked me to pick her up from the airport (after banging her and seeing her no more than twice). I just thought what the fuck and gave her some excuse. I can most likely still see her again, but see her more of a smash once or twice and that's enough kind of girl.

Agree that if she's a long time plate/girlfriend and doing you favours you should reciprocate.

In your situation you probably did the right thing, don't tell her you feel bad for it and "make it up for you". You have the frame now - stick to it. If you see her as a potential girlfriend get her out of the house and take her to a restaurant after two or three bangs, that would reduce her suspicions that you're just there for the pussy and you won't feel out of place or guilty for not being able to help her with something.

Post: #14

There's like a million things in your situation that are different than the question you're asking.

I'll just focus on one, that I think makes your question moot.

"Anyhow yesterday she asked me for a favor, but didn't say what it was"

Two things here

1) She is consciously delaying the question because she knows you'll be easier to convince when she can focus on the task.

She is running girl game on you, purposely.

This is straight up evil and underhanded. You do not deal with friends this way.

I'm not mad at women for this. She's weaker and less independent and has been raised to rely on others for things she can't do herself. Most women go the next level and get you to do things that she could do, but It'd easier for you. Then because she would prefer you to handle it, because she's lazy. Maybe the last level is to grind you down.

But it wouldn't be such a bad thing for her to pick the best moment except for the fact

2) She told you that she wanted something but wouldn't tell you what it was.

Girls tend to be what I would call "blurters". When they are somewhat comfortable, they will just blurt anything out. "I need to pee" is common.

She thinks and she must say. A lot of female to female communication happens that way.

So she probably was thinking about the couch, realized that you had a truck, and just called you...But then realized that you might say no.

Woman's speech is very tactical in nature, notwithstanding the blurt comment I just made.

So she has this thought, runs to the phone, gets you, but her training/nature kicks in.

She sets you up.

The preamble

*She doesn't realize that the listener has an emotional response.*

Is she pregnant
Does she have aids
Is she breaking up with me
Is she falling in love
Is there someone else
Does she need money
Does she need a kidney
Etcetera

Most minds are primed to think the worst.

And the typical female response to bringing the nature of the mind is like
"Why do you think the worst.." Or something that puts the blame back on you...

On purpose or on accident or through ignorance, this is a sign to the player that

SHE IS ATTEMPTING TO MANIPULATE ME

"WIA, you're going too far. I thought you weren't a misogynist"

No, this is how it starts and how it works.

Luckily your gut feeling was right.

However this plays out with this chick,

you did the right thing.

You got one 18 year old, you can get another.

WIA

Post: #15

I side with BB, I'd have helped her for free, ONLY if she is already part of my harem and I have banged her a few times already. If so, then she already brought me something, time for me to give her something.

If I would do a favor to a friend, I will do it for a stable plate. Anyway, the thing's done, but you probably should catch up with her next time she asks for a favor.

Oh, and whatever happens, never apologize to a girl.

Post: #16

I think sometimes guys (not saying you OP) are in their heads about how do I maintain my frame, XYZ, Alpha vs Beta, etc. Sometimes to the point where we try to wipe out any sort of human decency.

It wasn't as if she asked you to do the dishes, she asked you to do a manly thing.

This part here is not about the OP, but it is like the guys who are in a 3rd world country bickering about a dollar because they don't wanna get ripped off in their minds and other little things. Don't get so consumed about coming off like a bad ass/maintain frame/alpha etc. Only a handful of guys on this forum are at that level.

The great posts, questions, posters, articles, etc on this forum are just useful aids to shape yourself into a better man the the average crappy brahs that are out there. And my comments are not to diminish or minimize trying to be the best you can be. You should push yourself.

But everyone should try and keep things in perspective.

Post: #17

Postscript:

Okay thanks for the great replies, I think there were nuggets of wisdom and truth in everyones posts, at the end of the day I went with how I was feeling. I basically tried to strike a balance between being apologetic and holding frame, but without being weak, groveling, and supplicating. Told her that I'm sorry for making a big deal out of the whole situation, and that I didn't mean to come across as a dick, and that I'd like to help her.

Basically she seemed butt hurt over the whole thing. I texted her in the evening last night asking if things "worked out smoothly", to which she took over an hour to reply and said "unfortunately no, but it's going to be fine". I kind of thought "what the fuck" since I specifically told her to let me know if the other person flaked or things didn't work out and that I'd come over right away to help out.

I tried calling her, but she didn't answer, I then texted her offering to come over right then with my truck (it was like 8 pm) and load it up, to which she said "no it's okay my uncle is going to do it this weekend." That to me kind of made it seem like she just now intentionally doesn't want my help, like she's got a chip on her shoulder and holding a grudge.

I kind of figured asking her to hang out again would be a bust, but I did anyway, since we hadn't hung out since Wednesday of last week and the weekend was approaching. Basically said, "well the offer to help stands if you want to get it done sooner, and I'd like to take you out for a drink this week."

She said, "I have plans with friends this weekend, I'll have to get back to you." Which in my book basically translates to "sorry, I'm pissed at you, I'm not going to be hanging out with you again..." Usually she's always down and very enthusiastic to hang out whenever I suggest we do stuff. I said in my OP that she felt like she was getting a little distant, I only say that because she shot down the last time I suggested we hang out last Sunday with "sorry I can't tomorrow", but offered no explanation or alternative. Not exactly something too major or something to read into too much, but I guess years of dealing with the little games chicks play has got me thinking about every little thing and move like it's a chess match. This unconscious mode of operation, may be good in some ways, but detrimental in other ways.

Anyways, I felt bad yesterday and realized that I like this girl more than I realized since I was bothered by it, and was having some mild anxiety over the whole situation, which I realize is lame, but will still admit anyway. Aside from kicking myself for potentially ruining a good FWB situation, I kind of felt like a dick about the whole thing, and being a genuinely nice guy I did feel bad about it in that sense.

That said just so you guys know how I am as a person, I generally hate asking for people for favors, and will only do so in the most worst case scenario. I hate to sound like a person who is very focused on money, but anytime that I ask a favor from someone, especially if it's time consuming, or requires work, skill, tools, vehicles, etc. I will always throw the person some cash, even when it was not expected in the first place. Maybe my mode of thinking/operating unconsciously extends to people who ask me favors as well, like if I'm taking time out of my life to use my gas guzzling truck, and breaking my back to help move furniture, the least you can do is throw me some gas money.

However I know this was not the correct way to react/behave with this chick, and it ended up backfiring, like I said after our conversation I kind of felt like I had been a dick and put out a bad vibe. I probably should've texted her back to reassure her that I was down to help, but just said fuck it and didn't want to overthink it too much. I guess my gut was right in that I did put out a bad vibe, which obviously rubbed her the wrong way.

The way I'm looking at it now is that I apologized and was sincere about it, and she basically still wanted to act butt hurt, and reject my further offer to help her out, when as of right now she still needs the help. That couch is sitting out of her apartment complex getting drenched in the rain, when if she'd just forgiven and forgotten I could've cruised over last night and with her help loaded into the back of my truck.

At this point I give it a 50/50 chance at best she'll hit me up after this weekend, but my gut tells me that it's over with her. Personally I know I kind of fucked up, but the fact that she couldn't accept my apology is kind of bull shit. If she wants to stop hanging out with me because I was weird about loading up her moldy old couch and taking it to the dump, then that is kind of whack in it's own right.

I'll probably wait it out through the weekend and then try to hit her up on Monday or Tuesday for one last ditch effort to see if she wants to hang out again. Either way I've mentally accepted that she'll most likely fade away and that I'm back to square one without any poonanie to smash on. I'm certainly not going to come off as needy and desperate and constantly hit her up, if she wants distance, then distance she will get.

Post: #18

I would have helped her out but then expect somewhere down the line I would have that favor returned with interest.

I do this with anyone I don't consider a friend. If I'm asked for favors or a hook up I always respond with "Sure but you owe me". I've gotten repaid in no strings attached sex, an entire tank of gas, cartons of smokes, free entry to events, entire nights of drinks, etc.

It's just a healthy way to business. I only say "Don't worry about it" and help out free if they're friends as I stated earlier or B. done things for me with no expectations of payment.

Take it as you will those are just my thoughts on it.

Post: #19

(01-28-2016 01:56 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  Postscript:

snip

Back pedaling is always cringe-worthy. Instead of emphatically apologizing and offering to come to her aid right away to sort of "make up" for it, you should have just let it pass and not make any bigger of a deal out of it than you already did. Just learn from it and move on.

Sounds like you got a little bit of oneitis for this girl. Which is also what made you want to act overly alpha so that she wouldn't think you were the kind of cat she could take advantage of.

At the end of the day, as you said, she was just a FWB. Don't sweat it. I personally wouldn't even bother restarting her. Go game some new girls and find some new plates. Rinse and repeat my man.

Notes for the future.

Post: #20

Would it kill you to help a chick out who lets you play with her sweet young body?

Post: #21

I'm guilty of doing stuff like this too. I also don't want to be like those chumps who get stepped on by women. So I get too distant/nasty/unhelpful for my own good.

But the real mark of an Alpha in a situation like this would have been to turn it to his advantage with some playfulness/fun.

I used to be able to swing this when I was 19-20, but I've gotten less amusing as the years have worn on. I also think the tone of a lot of manosphere contributes to all of us being overly dour and cynical. Being a grouch or being distant and unhelpful isn't an Alpha trait at all, though.

My suggestions for guys who find themselves in this situation in the future:

1). "I'll do it, but my muscles are already sore so you can repay me with a massage afterwards." (This needs to be a statement, not a question.)

2). "Sure, I'll help. You come along and wear your overcoat with nothing under it." (I was once able to negotiate a suggestion like this to getting the girl to wear only her undies under a coat.)

3). No problem. I'll do it, but for a bottle of my favorite wine -- we can have it when you make me dinner for my trouble." (When she does you a favor that means she's more emotionally invested -- which is why you need to ask women to do things on occasion.)

Most women find this stuff amusing or get outright turned on by it. I think we all instinctively know this when we're young, but we forget.

But how does our original poster, OGNorCal707, defuse the resentment of his sex buddy? As stated, DON'T apologize. Instead re-contextualize the situation.

Go dark for a few weeks, then contact her out of the blue with a story about a death scare of either a family member or pet. Make it seem like this crisis was going on when she asked for the favor, which will make your turning her down seem like a minor thing by comparison.

Post: #22

If you want to do her a favor, do it.

If you don't want to, don't.

Don't be wishy washy. Don't moan about saying yes. Don't say no and act like you wanted to help.

Post: #23

(01-28-2016 03:31 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  Would it kill you to help a chick out who lets you play with her sweet young body?

Agreeing to moving furniture is how you become a boyfriend, aka reliable source of labor, money, and entertainment.

These helpful behaviors define squares. Continually bailing out chicks of drama they create for themselves. She got it done anyway, so that means she has other minions. But she wanted HIM to do it..She wanted to exercise power over him.

Rare is the man who says no to an UNREASONABLE request.

Now in this particular case OG is realizing that he has feelings after only a few bangs. His animal instinct kept him whole for a second, but the social programming us kicking in.

But the overall question about doing manual labor/favors for a girl that you're just banging is one where a player says hell no.

Especially when the man has never asked for her to do anything. Now if she has done you a solid, like your friends do, then you return in kind.

But chicks are the first to ask you for something.
And when the relationship starts to get rocky, you think she's going to do a mental calculation over all the stuff you did for her?

Of course not.

Drinks, appetizer, condoms, hotel, red box, occasional dinners ...

But if she hasn't done nothing but spread her legs and ALLOWED you to make her climax....You do nothing for her.

WIA

Post: #24

I wouldn't ever reach out to her again. You are making yourself look and sound desperate. And that's not us slapping you in that movie scene below, it's her.

Post: #25

OG

You didn't lose a friend's with benefits because of not helping her transport a couch.

It probably was coming regardless.

Either way, let go of the guilt & regret man.
That stuff never helps.

In an alternate universe, OG you've opened up a thread announcing the pitfalls of doing women favours & how after hours of labour, struggling with a mouldy couch.

You're reward was 1 more session of tepid sex, a friend zone & subsequent fade out.

Charge it to Game.