Post: #1

I looked at a few threads but there isn't much to be said about them. I think it would be interesting to share some finds.

This video is about man who challenges Common Core and is pulled away from security. The security guard starts playing police officer with him.

Post: #2

Dirty little secret: it's not about the kids

Post: #3

I heard Trump mentioned this as an issue in one of his speech.

As a non US resident, can someone explain to me what people are dissatisfied about ? Are the standards not high enough ?

Post: #4

It's a step towards centralized control of education. Wanting higher standards in education is weasel speak for "we will tell children what we think they should hear", which would allow the Left earlier and more consistent access to the brains of children.

Post: #5

(02-10-2016 03:58 AM)kaeru Wrote:  I heard Trump mentioned this as an issue in one of his speech.

As a non US resident, can someone explain to me what people are dissatisfied about ? Are the standards not high enough ?

There are 10 main problems with common core:

1. It's a rebranding and expansion of the No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 - that program was an abject failure by any standard. It failed before, why would it succeed this time?

2. It removes parents from their child's education - even making it illegal to voice concerns.

3. It teaches explicit sex education to children.

4. It's a massive unfunded mandate on the states.

5. It dumbs down (by law) the states that are currently performing better than the CC mandates.

6. All decisions on education are made at the federal level...this is a big one. It's one thing to have concerns, local school boards can be petitioned or replaced and changes can be made. CC takes away any avenue to either voice concerns or change curriculum. Someone in Washington could decide to start teaching kids that they should worship Satan and parents can't do anything about it. Even if they home school - the CC curriculum must be followed or face criminal charges.

7. All of your kid's information is being collected by an unelected group of private companies for use by ????

8. They are lying about the results. Instead of measuring the ability to do advanced math, they measure whether kids are "college ready" - and the definition of "college ready" can change to fake better numbers.

9. It teaches a way of solving math problems that is unnecessarily complicated and results in frustrated kids.

10. Given that only a handful of companies are allowed to administer the programs, it represents crony capitalism at its finest.

Post: #6

Common Core is an abortion that came about from Obama and the Department of Education.

This is what happens when the populace yearns for a top down solution. You get nasty results from do nothing politicians and bureaucrats.

Educators and parents like to blame the publishing companies, but the publishers are only following the requirements outlined by the politicians who were voted in by the very same parents and teachers.

You want a solution to this mess? Fix the do nothing culture that has turned schools into heaping piles of crap.

I wrote a solution on how to fix schools in America on another post. Reposting it here:

1. End tenure for teachers
2. End summer vacation and spread more breaks around the year.
3. Separate out male and female students into different buildings. Require more male teachers for both schools.
4. Make school 9-5 and eliminate home work and stupid "read this book over break" assignments. Al learning and studying should be done in school.
5. Increase the pay of teachers and eliminate pay increases for master's degrees. They don't improve teaching ability.
6. Sports and fitness programs are to be done between the 9-5 block of time.
7. Have child tax credits be dependent on school performance. A poor performing student will most likely end up on government dole, if a welfare recipient had to content with her paycheck being dictated by her thugrat you can damn well guarantee she'll be beating into the kid the importance of school.
8. Bring back the paddle for extreme malcontents.

Post: #7

Both of my parents are teachers(father retired a few years ago) and they both agree that the education system in America is fucked.

This is just another thing to add to the list of problems. Oversized classes, not enough physical activity, shitty nutrition, kids that need to be in special classes and kids that need to be in advanced classes all in one room. Teaching kids only information to take a test well.

Might as well add this to complete it.

Post: #8

(02-10-2016 05:57 AM)Captainstabbin Wrote:  It's a rebranding and expansion of the No Child Left Behind Act of 2001.

(02-10-2016 06:01 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Common Core is an abortion that came about from Obama and the Department of Education.

I'm confused.

Post: #9

(02-10-2016 06:01 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  1. End tenure for teachers
2. End summer vacation and spread more breaks around the year.
3. Separate out male and female students into different buildings. Require more male teachers for both schools.
4. Make school 9-5 and eliminate home work and stupid "read this book over break" assignments. Al learning and studying should be done in school.
5. Increase the pay of teachers and eliminate pay increases for master's degrees. They don't improve teaching ability.
6. Sports and fitness programs are to be done between the 9-5 block of time.
7. Have child tax credits be dependent on school performance. A poor performing student will most likely end up on government dole, if a welfare recipient had to content with her paycheck being dictated by her thugrat you can damn well guarantee she'll be beating into the kid the importance of school.
8. Bring back the paddle for extreme malcontents.

I would agree to everything except ending summer vacation. Children need free play time during which they actually learn to be free individuals who must make their own decisions and follow their own hobbies and interests. Otherwise they will end up as robots who can just follow the path that is laid before them already. Short breaks are useless - you can't plan long trips. Who wants to study when it's nice time outside, who want's to sit in a hot sweaty classroom? Vacations during winter are not that good, children will just sit in homes playing computer games, it's better to have holidays in summer when they can play outside.

Post: #10

All of the complaints listed here are accurate, but the math one is the most outrageous. That retarded program is literally handicapping kids in anything STEM related.

Post: #11

(02-10-2016 07:38 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(02-10-2016 06:01 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  1. End tenure for teachers
2. End summer vacation and spread more breaks around the year.
3. Separate out male and female students into different buildings. Require more male teachers for both schools.
4. Make school 9-5 and eliminate home work and stupid "read this book over break" assignments. Al learning and studying should be done in school.
5. Increase the pay of teachers and eliminate pay increases for master's degrees. They don't improve teaching ability.
6. Sports and fitness programs are to be done between the 9-5 block of time.
7. Have child tax credits be dependent on school performance. A poor performing student will most likely end up on government dole, if a welfare recipient had to content with her paycheck being dictated by her thugrat you can damn well guarantee she'll be beating into the kid the importance of school.
8. Bring back the paddle for extreme malcontents.

I would agree to everything except ending summer vacation. Children need free play time during which they actually learn to be free individuals who must make their own decisions and follow their own hobbies and interests. Otherwise they will end up as robots who can just follow the path that is laid before them already. Short breaks are useless - you can't plan long trips. Who wants to study when it's nice time outside, who want's to sit in a hot sweaty classroom? Vacations during winter are not that good, children will just sit in homes playing computer games, it's better to have holidays in summer when they can play outside.

The problem with summer vacation is knowledge loss and full time parents who continue to work jobs over the summer. Most kids who aren't old enough to stay home alone get sent to summer camps. The older ones end up working summer jobs. Summer vacation was the most detrimental aspect of my schooling. Half of my knowledge slipped away.

The european system with half terms is ideally what I envisioned. During the winter half term here in the UK, they always advertise 3 week long summer camps for the half term.

Seems to work nicely here in Europe even during the heat of the summer. Most kids don't want to be in school anyway in the same way that I don't want to go to work each day. Sometimes you just have to do things that you don't want to do. It sucks, but life isn't fair.

Post: #12

In lighter terms, what does everyone think of homeschooling? Specifically, The Ron Paul Cirriculum?

Pre-RVF, I thought homeschooling was useless. The "social aspect" weighted too heavily on my brain. Kids should have fun and play sports.

Now that I see how useless most education is, and how much I want my family to be independent, I'm more inclined to it.

Granted, I'm decades away from having a family, but it's something to think about. I'd be interested if any of our senior members have done homeschooling. Other than elite private schools, it seems to be the best option for securing solid education.

The interesting part of this, for me, is that it's turning me off from dumb girls. I've always said "I don't care how smart girls are, as long as they're nice to look at and spend time with," but really, if you knock this girl up, you want one that will further the intelligence of your children.

Post: #13

(02-10-2016 08:15 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

(02-10-2016 07:38 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(02-10-2016 06:01 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  1. End tenure for teachers
2. End summer vacation and spread more breaks around the year.
3. Separate out male and female students into different buildings. Require more male teachers for both schools.
4. Make school 9-5 and eliminate home work and stupid "read this book over break" assignments. Al learning and studying should be done in school.
5. Increase the pay of teachers and eliminate pay increases for master's degrees. They don't improve teaching ability.
6. Sports and fitness programs are to be done between the 9-5 block of time.
7. Have child tax credits be dependent on school performance. A poor performing student will most likely end up on government dole, if a welfare recipient had to content with her paycheck being dictated by her thugrat you can damn well guarantee she'll be beating into the kid the importance of school.
8. Bring back the paddle for extreme malcontents.

I would agree to everything except ending summer vacation. Children need free play time during which they actually learn to be free individuals who must make their own decisions and follow their own hobbies and interests. Otherwise they will end up as robots who can just follow the path that is laid before them already. Short breaks are useless - you can't plan long trips. Who wants to study when it's nice time outside, who want's to sit in a hot sweaty classroom? Vacations during winter are not that good, children will just sit in homes playing computer games, it's better to have holidays in summer when they can play outside.

The problem with summer vacation is knowledge loss and full time parents who continue to work jobs over the summer. Most kids who aren't old enough to stay home alone get sent to summer camps. The older ones end up working summer jobs. Summer vacation was the most detrimental aspect of my schooling. Half of my knowledge slipped away.

The european system with half terms is ideally what I envisioned. During the winter half term here in the UK, they always advertise 3 week long summer camps for the half term.

Seems to work nicely here in Europe even during the heat of the summer. Most kids don't want to be in school anyway in the same way that I don't want to go to work each day. Sometimes you just have to do things that you don't want to do. It sucks, but life isn't fair.

In my European country we have summer breaks of three months as does all former soviet countries and it rocks! I always enjoyed summer months, summer camps are fine, if not summer camps then grandparents usually watch over smaller children and parents also want to take vacation during summer so they can spend it with family and children who have no school, but generally in Eastern Europe there are no anal laws that would force larger children to be monitored so there is no problem with children age 10 an up just sitting home or playing on street with friends. Most children drive to countryside during summer where grandparents live. So this question of where to send children is not a problem for most families.

Knowledge loss is a weak argument. If a child is not interested he will forget everything anyway and if he is interested he will remember easily when needed.

Post: #14

My take on common core (from the little I know) is that it's the elite's way to ensure total class segregation in the future. They will always be able to afford Ivy League-type college tuition fees; the only way for anyone else to break in is by winning scholarships. If you dumb down the proles sufficiently, that window closes forever.

Post: #15

(02-10-2016 08:34 AM)redbeard Wrote:  In lighter terms, what does everyone think of homeschooling? Specifically, The Ron Paul Cirriculum?

Pre-RVF, I thought homeschooling was useless. The "social aspect" weighted too heavily on my brain. Kids should have fun and play sports.

Now that I see how useless most education is, and how much I want my family to be independent, I'm more inclined to it.

Granted, I'm decades away from having a family, but it's something to think about. I'd be interested if any of our senior members have done homeschooling. Other than elite private schools, it seems to be the best option for securing solid education.

The interesting part of this, for me, is that it's turning me off from dumb girls. I've always said "I don't care how smart girls are, as long as they're nice to look at and spend time with," but really, if you knock this girl up, you want one that will further the intelligence of your children.

I was not home schooled but I have younger siblings who were, and it's a subject I've researched and been interested in for a long time.

The "but your kids wont learn to socialize" argument is a huge load of crap and fear-mongering tactic. The most obvious counter-argument being that our modern school system is a recent invention, let's say early 20th century. Did people not learn how to socialize before that? Furthermore, the idea that home-schooled kids literally stay at home all day is non-sense. Think about how much time in a public school classroom is spent wasted and sitting around doing nothing. You can easily do all the day's work and learning in a couple of hours. That means there is plenty of time to meet up with other homeschool kids for different activities and groups (this is common in towns of any size), and also to play sports and do other activities where kids learn to socialize in groups. If you homeschool your kid and let them sit in their room all day playing video games (and I've known people who've done that), then obviously that's a bad thing. But any parent worth a damn isn't going to be doing that.

I'm also anti-public school in that the "socialization" that it teaches is to reinforce the herd mentality and mindlessly following orders. Which is by no means an accident. The modern public school developed from the 19th Century Prussian system which was designed specifically to turn young men into good soldiers who would say "yes sir" and charge off to battle without a second thought. Since learning about the history of all that, every time I hear a school bell go off and see how immediately everyone gets up to leave, all I can picture is WWI soldiers hearing a whistle and jumping out of the trenches to certain death.

I could go on for days on this subject but I'll just add that if I had kids now I would definitely be home-schooling them (or possibly have them in a good, small private school). But no way in hell would I let them spend the majority of their waking hours in the cesspool that our schools have become.

Post: #16

(02-10-2016 06:01 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  I wrote a solution on how to fix schools in America on another post. Reposting it here:

1. End tenure for teachers

Where it exists, I agree. Fortunately, many areas of the country do not have "tenure" or real teacher's unions. (Thank God.) The practice that needs to end is one that Thomas Sowell refers to in Inside American Education as the " Turkey Trot". Failing, incapable teachers are merely moved from one position to the next rather than fired.

Quote:2. End summer vacation and spread more breaks around the year.

Agreed. 3 or 4 two week breaks would be more than adequate.

Quote:3. Separate out male and female students into different buildings. Require more male teachers for both schools.

AND, school uniforms.

Quote:4. Make school 9-5 and eliminate home work and stupid "read this book over break" assignments. Al learning and studying should be done in school.

Rather than eliminating these, I would suggest students be given incentives to do the extra work. Personal development doesn't end at 5:00.

Quote:5. Increase the pay of teachers and eliminate pay increases for master's degrees. They don't improve teaching ability.

I'd agree to this only in the case of teachers with something other than an "Education" degree. The BLS says that the avg High School teacher is paid $56,000 /year, not including benefits.

I'd pay more for someone with a Masters in History teaching kids History, than someone with a Masters in "Education."

Quote:6. Sports and fitness programs are to be done between the 9-5 block of time.

Perhaps intramural sports, but that would seriously cut into actual education time when we're talking cross-town sports competitions.

Quote:7. Have child tax credits be dependent on school performance. A poor performing student will most likely end up on government dole, if a welfare recipient had to content with her paycheck being dictated by her thugrat you can damn well guarantee she'll be beating into the kid the importance of school.

I agree, but... What metric would you suggest to measure "school performance."

Quote:8. Bring back the paddle for extreme malcontents.

Agree. Seemed to be pretty effective in my school.

I would also add:

9. Segregate students into class levels. The fact is that not all students are best served by preparing for college. Many would do far better concentrating on the Trades. Also, few things are more destructive to the educational process than having to deal with "special needs" students (behavioral - I'm not talking about wheelchairs here) who are stuffed into regular classes out of political correctness.

Consistently under performing students need to be in classes more suited to their needs, rather than suiting EVERY CLASS to their needs.

Post: #17

I don't concern myself with this bullshit because there's really only one solution: send your kids to private school.

Are you really going to trust the government to teach your kids? The only ones who do that are the ones who were brainwashed in public education anyway. Which is most of everyone.

Post: #18

Quote:The "but your kids wont learn to socialize" argument is a huge load of crap and fear-mongering tactic. The most obvious counter-argument being that our modern school system is a recent invention, let's say early 20th century. Did people not learn how to socialize before that?

It's not a load of crap, though it might be overplayed. People learned to socialize without the modern school system, before the modern school system existed. Of course! Because when the modern school system didn't exist, there were other means for children to become socialized. But in a world where all of your peers attend school and whose lives revolve around the school-sponsored extra-curricular activities, if you cannot attend you'll find your social options much more limited.

It's not an insurmountable obstacle but it's foolish to pretend like there's no risk of social consequences with home schooling.

Post: #19

Also, put me on record against shortening summer vacation. While I believe it will in fact result in better academic performance, there's more to life than academic performance. What you lose in academic knowledge can be regained more quickly the next year, and in the meantime clearing out all the intellectual baggage of school for a couple of months is good for physical health, mental health, and creativity.

edit: Parents working in the summer are the problem? Labor reforms-- make an incentive for families to have one parent take summer vacations with the children. What problem are you trying to solve, again? School in the summer to keep kids off streets is a bad idea. If kids on the streets are a problem, cramming them into a hot uncomfortable school against their will is not going to solve that problem.

Post: #20

^Labor reform? Seriously?

Western laborers already struggle against 3rd world slave labor. Giving half of the families time off in the summer would encourage more off shoring and lower the efficiency of businesses.

The last thing we need is forcing businesses to do anything. The system i outlined above in my post gives working parents the ability to not have to spend extra money on camps, before, and after school. Which costs money by the way.

Longer breaks instead of a big summer vacation allow families to travel on off peak times. You can stagger breaks so not every school is taking time off.

@Baphomet: students get grades don't they? that's a good metric.

Post: #21

Jumping in here, I saw a friends daughter's math HW - I absolutely have a hard time grasping the concept of rouunding up, splitting, and all of that.

We were programmed to do long math/division/etc.

I can completely understand why many are against it.

Question is, does common core math have any BENEFIT for children in the long run ?

Serious question.

Post: #22

(02-10-2016 03:25 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  @Baphomet: students get grades don't they? that's a good metric.

So the teacher writes their own paycheck by the grades they hand out? If straight "A" students gets me a 20% raise, I'm going to have a lot of "Straight A" students.

Post: #23

(02-10-2016 03:32 PM)kaotic Wrote:  Jumping in here, I saw a friends daughter's math HW - I absolutely have a hard time grasping the concept of rouunding up, splitting, and all of that.

We were programmed to do long math/division/etc.

I can completely understand why many are against it.

Question is, does common core math have any BENEFIT for children in the long run ?

Serious question.

Not to the child, no. But if you want to sell endless textbooks on a twisted nonsensical ass backwards "system" of mathematics, then the benefits are HUGE.

Common Core has nothing to do with "Education".

Post: #24

Quote:^Labor reform? Seriously?

Western laborers already struggle against 3rd world slave labor. Giving half of the families time off in the summer would encourage more off shoring and lower the efficiency of businesses.

The last thing we need is forcing businesses to do anything.

So, in other words, the schooling is all going to be pointless anyway. The struggle against 3rd world labor is not going to be won by encouraging 3rd world working conditions and living standards. That is effectively a loss.

Quote:The system i outlined above in my post gives working parents the ability to not have to spend extra money on camps, before, and after school. Which costs money by the way.

Money that goes back into local economies and pays for local workers.

Post: #25

(02-10-2016 03:40 PM)Baphomet Wrote:  

(02-10-2016 03:25 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  @Baphomet: students get grades don't they? that's a good metric.

So the teacher writes their own paycheck by the grades they hand out? If straight "A" students gets me a 20% raise, I'm going to have a lot of "Straight A" students.

No, no. I think you misunderstand what I am proposing.

The goal is to tie student school performance to the amount of money the child's parents have during the tax year. Better grades, bigger credit, lower grades, little credit. Mostly as an incentive to get parents to participate in their child's education if it affects their bottom line.