Post: #1

I guess I'm trying to think of the whole nature versus nature argument. From what I understand, an alpha male 1. Has an IQ higher than the rest of the group 2. is physically built or stronger 3. has seniority.
There are more betas in the world than alphas, but most women have to settle on betas. But can an alpha son be raised, if there are certain environmental conditions, or are they born?

Post: #2

Yes

Post: #3

(03-12-2016 11:45 AM)JacksonRev Wrote:  Yes

Yes to the former or the latter?

Post: #4

A bit of both. But seriously though I dont believe in all this alpha stuff. I blame Heartiste for the alpha beta haggling.

Post: #5

A bit of both. There was a good thread about whether someone can be alpha without playing competitive sports.

Growing up in an environment that doesn't constantly coddle you certainly helps develop an alpha mindset.

Post: #6

I think it's mostly how you were raised.

Post: #7

Alpha is a choice. Most men who have shown alpha states have come from all walks of life, rich, poor, single parent, no parents, abusive parents. The manifestation of becoming a superior version of yourself, surpassing most others in the process is to become alpha. It's all in ones hands.

Post: #8

(03-12-2016 02:15 PM)Pride male Wrote:  A bit of both. But seriously though I dont believe in all this alpha stuff. I blame Heartiste for the alpha beta haggling.

I agree. There's way too much emphasis placed on the alpha-beta dichotomy, which is problematic as it is.

I think Vox's explanation is a little bit more accurate, though still problematic.

The real question: is this thread beta?

Post: #9

I dont believe in pure alphas, we are all a mix of ratios.

Those high levels of Alpha were combination born that way, and raised in an environment or with a mentor to finish them

Post: #10

I think it's a combination of both, but with genetics having a dominant role. Nurturing and environment play a role that is mostly passive - it's more important that the environment doesn't actively stifle the development of an alpha, than to encourage such behaviour.

I base this opinion on my short experience working as a teacher in both elementary and high school. I remember two kids who were most definitely alphas. One was from a rich family and his father traveled a lot because of work, and the other had parents who were just going through a divorce. I knew for sure from conversations with other teachers that both of those kids had fathers that were poor role models. And yet they evolved into alphas at a young age. So I believe genetics must be the dominant component.

Post: #11

(03-13-2016 04:51 AM)Khan Wrote:  I think it's a combination of both, but with genetics having a dominant role. Nurturing and environment play a role that is mostly passive - it's more important that the environment doesn't actively stifle the development of an alpha, than to encourage such behaviour.

I base this opinion on my short experience working as a teacher in both elementary and high school. I remember two kids who were most definitely alphas. One was from a rich family and his father traveled a lot because of work, and the other had parents who were just going through a divorce. I knew for sure from conversations with other teachers that both of those kids had fathers that were poor role models. And yet they evolved into alphas at a young age. So I believe genetics must be the dominant component.

Interesting share. But it also begs the question: Were they forced to find their own way as a result of poor role models? If so, that would also indicate that alphas are made.

That said, I agree with Pride male that the alpha/beta dichotomy is very black and white. It's a matter of context. If you are a guy that offers true value to the people in your life, then you will never lack coin, cunt or camaraderie.

Post: #12

(03-13-2016 02:49 PM)DarianFrey Wrote:  Interesting share. But it also begs the question: Were they forced to find their own way as a result of poor role models? If so, that would also indicate that alphas are made.

They were both 14-15 years old. I don't think that at that age they were mature enough to realize they have to find their own way. Most likely their inborn alpha tendencies took control and began to flourish, unconstrained by the environment.

(03-13-2016 02:49 PM)DarianFrey Wrote:  That said, I agree with Pride male that the alpha/beta dichotomy is very black and white. It's a matter of context. If you are a guy that offers true value to the people in your life, then you will never lack coin, cunt or camaraderie.

Agreed.

Post: #13

I think it's a bit of both; I'm sure testosterone plays a part in it, some men just naturally do have more than others...

But ultimately I think it's our wussed out, PC culture and lack of dads in the house that's responsible for our current crop of betas. The "born" argument is often a beta argument that guys use to just cop out of it and blame their lot in life for why they can't get a date.

Bad diet and lack of exercise might have a role too; allegedly modern men's testosterone levels are significantly lower than they were 50 years ago.

On the flip side though this means that guys who care about manhood don't have to try nearly as hard to "stand out" from the average beta male and impress lots of chicks as they probably did back in the days when men actually acted like men.

Post: #14

Many factors. Hell I was 'alpha' as a child, I wouldn't say I'm back to where I was yet. Never have been 'beta' so even the duality here is too simplistic. For me I'm working against my tendency to 'tune out.' Defines a lack of masculine energy, lack of drive even if I'm too stubborn/snobbish to take shit.

A disciplined intelligent diet gets me closer than anything else. Don't see IQ as having a positive correlation, negative if anything. Overanalyzing situations generally leads to inaction.

Post: #15

(03-13-2016 05:34 PM)KevCapitalist Wrote:  Many factors. Hell I was 'alpha' as a child, I wouldn't say I'm back to where I was yet. Never have been 'beta' so even the duality here is too simplistic. For me I'm working against my tendency to 'tune out.' Defines a lack of masculine energy, lack of drive even if I'm too stubborn/snobbish to take shit.

A disciplined intelligent diet gets me closer than anything else. Don't see IQ as having a positive correlation, negative if anything. Overanalyzing situations generally leads to inaction.

It also increases anxiety which produces cortisol, which directly decreases testostorne.

Hence one of the reasons I believe the stereotype exists regarding "smart guys" being geeky or awkward around women; brains and brawn need to be balanced rather than portrayed as "enemies" of each other.

Post: #16

No one is born a certain way. No one is born Christian or Muslim. People learn to become who they are.

Post: #17

A lot of theory here, so if you disagree on any point or flat out think i'm wrong let me know.

I think it's undeniable that 'being Alpha' is something that certain people are genetically pre-disposed towards being. At least to some degree.

However, being Alpha is not just one but several unrelated traits that are parceled together to make the Alpha. Most of these traits are obtainable.

Traits include, in no particular order
Physical Strength
1. Tall
2. Broad Shouldered
3. Keen
4. Assertive
5. Ambitious
6. Brazen
7. Decisiveness
8. Outgoing personality
And there's definitely more

A minority of men are born possessing most of these traits but rarely will they posses all of them. They are the classical example of what we would consider an Alpha male to be and they gravitate towards leadership and management positions.

However, a lot of these traits aren't seen to be congruent with the modern narrative in today's society regarding men and women. For example, if you posses traits 3 through to 7 on what I have listed above, then you are likely to be branded as a bully, crooked, corrupt or a misogynist. Thus, two generations of men have been taught to use kid gloves in all of their daily interactions. Rewarded for participation, expected to blend in with people smarter, dumber, taller and shorter than they are. One big melting pot of mediocrity.

As a side note, where I am from, young men from the middle (14-21) are highly likely to not go to university or even drop out of school at a young age. These middle class young men are active participants in meaningless violence, substance abuse and have very little career progression. The females follow similar paths and its common for them to have children by the age of 18. All the while, immigrants and the children of immigrants are achieving far more and they come from cultures where political correctness is non existent and gender roles are far more defined. I believe that the modern societal discourse on Gender Roles and Political Correctness is the underlying reason for this.

"The Knowledge", that is often shared on RooshV and similar mediums is only picked up by a very small minority of the population. An even smaller percentage embrace it. However, this knowledge gives a young man all of the tools required to become a real man. Let's call it Alpha 2.0. The science of the Alpha male is not new, but neither has it been something properly harnessed for education. In fact it's not just education, it's behavioral adjustment. While there are less alpha males out there, the potential is there for the aspiring man to take these tools and become, on paper, a 'complete' Alpha male.

What would be interesting to see is in 10-15 years time, the children of men who are apart of the manosphere absorbing this stuff in their formative years and not acquiring baggage that certain beta tendencies leave any person with.

Post: #18

I'm also not a big fan of people who focus on alpha/beta dynamics too much, but they are certainly very powerful in a lot of ways.

I don't remember where I read this; however, in many species, males that are thrust into an alpha role unexpectedly will suddenly begin exhibiting alpha behaviors and body language, as if "rising" to the role, with a testosterone surge to boot. The same man can exhibit different levels of these characteristics throughout his lifespan.

So, I'd definitely say both is possible.

(03-26-2016 03:08 AM)CodyB Wrote:  Traits include, in no particular order
Physical Strength
1. Tall
2. Broad Shouldered
3. Keen
4. Assertive
5. Ambitious
6. Brazen
7. Decisiveness
8. Outgoing personality
And there's definitely more

Outgoing personality is not exactly a trait of all "alphas" or even leaders - that's largely a myth (an understandable one) embraced and perpetuated by our society. Read "Quiet" and "The Charisma Myth" for info on this (both written by women and not explicitly about alpha/beta dynamics, per se, but they're backed by lots of research and the concepts are very transferable). This approach can certainly help, but it's not necessarily a given, and it's possible to overdo it to a point where you come across as too supplicating, and therefore weak.

"The Charisma Myth" especially delves into some other leadership styles that carry a very strong draw - more important than being outgoing, I'd say, is being fully engaged and present in the interactions that you do have (or at least the ones that count).

I say this as a pretty outgoing person, so I'm not just blowing smoke into my own communication style here. And I do personally value being outgoing - used correctly it carries plenty of power and opens lots of doors, that's for sure.

As for being tall or broad-shouldered as prerequisites for alphaness, I'm also not so sure. Maybe that was the case at one time, but humans are very complex now. Another interesting dynamic I've read about is that when a bigger man is with a smaller, less physically capable man who has a more alpha frame, you can actually observe the bigger man subconsciously trying to "shrink" his body language to accomodate the small alpha, and I think this applies to other species as well.

That just goes to show how much the intensity of the heart, personality, and mind really count for - and while some of that temperament lies in genetics, these things can be fostered to a very decent degree. Simply changing your body language carries huge, measurable results - both internally and externally.

Finally, if by being keen you mean intelligent, I think that one would be tough to argue. Certainly it carries power, but I've met plenty of confident, alpha types that aren't all that bright. Some have their own kind of intelligence; others are just alpha through brute physicality or personality alone.

I think the biggest steps you can take for the fastest changes in this part of your psyche are working on your self-talk and your body language - and finding ways to take on roles that require more leadership. Working out obviously helps but I'd say focusing on the mental is more reliable. Work out anyways, though, of course. It's certainly part of the chain.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #19

To add to the above (and this is just pulled off the top of my head), I think the ingredients for being an alpha start with these traits, in no particular order:

Confidence
Self-assuredness (I see this as sightly different than confidence).
Decisiveness
Strong body language
Full presence

There are other charaacteristics that factor in, but they are negotiable, while I doubt you'll find many alphas who don't possess ALL of the above in one form or another.

A certain degree of warmth is important if you want to be a charismatic leader and control social situations, but I wouldn't say it's a must to be an alpha individual - just a must for a certain level of power. Again, "The Charisma Myth" goes into this.

Another important factor is internal intensity. Alphas are not always intense in communication style and may even appear relaxed and chill instead of abrasive and comandeering, but if you back them in a corner, try to hurt them or something they care about, put them on the spot, or try to take something from them, it comes alive real quick.

This intensity is what makes a bigger male shrink back from a small with one with that fighting spirit.

I'm not really sure of a word to describe that intensity of spirit, but I was somewhat trying to touch on it with self-assuredness. Even a frail old woman who possesses this fire can control the dynamics of a room.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #20

You can be both. You can be neither. Alpha or beta is only a trait or characteristic of masculinity.

You can be out spoken, you can be an introvert, or you can chose to be an extrovert. Its a decision how we act each day. Alpha is only a trait of masculinity. I would aim for the later.

Its like public speaking and acting. Its just a skill. But Masculinity is something different, it is more who you are, a man. An extension of being a Man.

For example, Bruce Lee weighs 135 lbs and was 5'7", and was view a foreigner, an outsider and had a heavy accent. Yet he become an American/World Icon.

Despite some beta traits like his stature, he still excel in the US, and was one of the most Alpha dudes ever. And is consider the father of American Martial Arts or Modern Martial Arts.

A better answer is, how do you become more masculine. Doing alpha stuff like working-out, competing in mma, calling out liars are all masculine traits.

One of the best training ground for being more Alpha or to be perceive physically more alpha is MMA or martial arts.

Martial Arts was initially created to help thee little guy compete against much bigger and stronger opponents.

If you are interested in being more masculine, I would say training in MMA for 4 years will give you an exposure to masculinity like no other. The competition and comradely you develop and friendship built with hard working men. Will help you exhibit more masculine traits. i.e. Hard work, not complaining, not comparing, overcoming personal fears, handling emotion, and most importantly dealing with failure/setbacks.

Post: #21

I must admit that wresting in high school was one of those things that really set the frame for my masculinity growing up. I felt a bit lost before that at times, given my childhood background, and those experiences helped me evolve into my own for many of the reasons you mention.

In many ways that experience did allow me to become more alpha (though most certainly I was and still am outgunned by many in this department). But what about all the other wrestlers on my team who took never quite stole the show as much as I did, even if they were masculine and tough?

Simply put, I don't know if masculinity and being alpha are quite the same thing. Once you spend a good deal of time with a group of wrestlers or martial artists you can really see that.

There are so many guys in those groups who are most definitely all man but they are not alpha. . They are more confident and self assured, yes, and more physically capable. These things help but do not seal it on their own.

Same is true with rednecks, who are often very masculine. If you come from a small town like me you know that being old school and having masculine traits does not guarantee one will be an alpha of a group.

That's one of the reasons I find these "is this alpha" questions so silly. It misses the entire point, and as many point out, if you're worried about it enough to ask, you're probably not one.

An alpha is a leader. And generally he wins the power on personality alone, though sometimes through physical intimidation.

Example. If you're hanging out with your little homie who is so small you know you could reach out and snap his neck if you lost your patience (only you never would cause "he's your boy") and he always makes the decisions about the places you go, clowns on you sometimes in front of others, and has some kind of draw with women that makes him always somehow outpull you....sorry, but he's the alpha between you two.

It doesn't matter if you can snap his neck if you never would...This isn't to say being alpha equals having the best pull or minimizing your bro with jokes, but I think you know what I mean. These guys one way or another own the dynamic.

As I said I don't always steal the show but I have my moments. I remember one time this redneck the size of a pro basketball player tried to clown me in front of his buddies in a bar. I all but made this giant of a man back down by jumping on my feet, walking up to him, looking him in the eye, and shaking his hand. The whole room stone silent. Everyone knew what was up, but he embraced the ambiguity and folded.

Was I delusional enough to assume I would win? No. Of course not, but I would have made him earn it, and I possibly would have given him quite an embarrassing surprise in front of his crew (before I got jumped lol). And I got to know the guy later - he was all man, running the auto shop at the local Ford dealership and a fighter at that. Kind of guy that would wreck his motorcycle drunk into a telephone pole and laugh it off. But he never fucked with me again - who was the alpha?

Look, I've done my share of folding and backing down too so this isn't to humble brag. But my point is you can see how this runs much deeper than physicality. Potential for power is nothing. Actual wielded power is everything. This is why guys who are fully "present" often take the cake.

If you've been in these groups - good ole boys, mma guys, and wrestlers - you quickly find the alphas are not necessarily the most masculine or the toughest. They will tend to be tough, sure, because they have that "other element," that fighting spirit I mentioned in my post. But he's not necessarily the toughest or most masculine. It doesn't matter because he will generally never be challenged by those who know him, and he'll be backed when others do.

Again coming from my small town background, sometimes some guy would move in from the city, and he'd by no means be as tough or manly as the good old boys in my town. But he'd quickly become popular because he'd honed that edge in the city and knew how to take the reins on social dynamics. And people wouldn't fuck with him.

When it comes to alpha, it varies far beyond introversion and extroversion and equating it with masculinity just doesn't quite nail it, in my opinion. There is something decidedly masculine about wielding this type of power, but look around any alpha and you'll often see others behind him who are more masculine. Trump's bodyguards, for a current example.

These things are so variable and they constantly fluctuate. I might be hanging with my brother this year and I'm running the show. A year later I bump into him and roles have flipped because I'm down on my luck, feeling insecure, and he's up on his. Unless you're really fierce inside you'll tend to be on the losing end as you age but many old stallions have proven that's not necessarily set in stone either. Manhood is full of power dynamics and the alpha is the guy who comes out on top.

And there are so many ways to do that.

To me it's not the be all, end all anyways, but that's my three cents.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #22

I really get the feeling that in the past few years the definition of alpha has changed from "man able to screw lots of women without effort" to "man with qualities deemed virtuous by the manosphere".

High IQ? Almost all violent criminals have exceedingly low IQs, and women flock to them.

Tall and muscular? Skinny emo or effeminate musicians get tons of pussy. I'm guessing we aren't holding Justin Beiber up as a paragon of masculinity.

The game definition of an alpha and the neomasculine definition clearly differ.

Post: #23

^ "man able to screw lots of women without effort"

I don't see that as a definition of "alpha" at all and never did - that's always been my main issue with the manosphere's obsession with it; it's something to aspire to but will not get you laid on its own.

And I think your "qualities deemed virtuous by the manosphere" statement is unnecessarily critical, as well as sorely flawed. Aside from the fact that the posts above present a range of ideas, are we projecting qualities we deem virtuous, or do we see the qualities of an alpha as virtuous?

I just googled a definition and got "the dominant male animal in a particular group." That's exactly what I think of when I think of an alpha. Read my post, if you can be bothered, and I think that's very clear - it seems like you posted without even considering other input in the thread.

I agree with your observation aboout convicts. Men don't need to be "keen" to be "alpha."

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #24

(03-26-2016 11:04 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  ^ "man able to screw lots of women without effort"

I don't see that as a definition of "alpha" at all and never did - that's always been my main issue with the manosphere's obsession with it; it's something to aspire to but will not get you laid on its own.

And I think your "qualities deemed virtuous by the manosphere" statement is unnecessarily critical, as well as sorely flawed. Aside from the fact that the posts above present a range of ideas, are we projecting qualities we deem virtuous, or do we see the qualities of an alpha as virtuous?

I just googled a definition and got "the dominant male animal in a particular group." That's exactly what I think of when I think of an alpha. Read my post, if you can be bothered, and I think that's very clear - it seems like you posted without even considering other input in the thread.

I agree with your observation aboout convicts. Men don't need to be "keen" to be "alpha."

I think you have alot of good points with your two essays.

But lets narrow the scope to Alpha. I think what others are talking about is only related to Alpha, i.e. banging girls. A byproduct of being the man or Alpha.

Lets be honest Alpha = Leader or Leader of Men.

Obviously anyone who is in a leadership role has the opportunity to be Alpha by default, i.e. Prince, King of Saudi Arabia. Whom happens to be a horrible example of leaders, and perhaps a more exploiter of mankind.

You cannot deny there cold ruthless Alpha-ness and there keen ability to destroy and control lives. Thats pretty Alpha and evil, i.e. Saddam Hussein, Hitler, Stalin, and Mao.

Post: #25

^I forget sometimes that this is a pua forum because I pay very little attention to that side of it. I've always felt the guys focused on pickup had a poor understanding of the concept and misuse it a lot.

That said, what you've mentioned about leadership is kind of just a repeat of what I already mentioned, so I don't think we're too far apart on the idea.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling