Post: #1

I hear a lot of EFL teachers referred to as "dead enders," and I can understand why if you're 50 years old, working for a pittance at some fly-by-night language school in an impoverished city, and going nowhere, but why do many end up like this?

I think you can make a life of it if you have an undergraduate degree, then an advanced degree in linguistics, English literature, education, or something related to this field. Teachers with a master's degree can get jobs in international schools that pay quite well; teachers with a doctorate have a wide range of universities to choose from.

Any other ideas on how to upgrade the image of this profession and show others how it can be a viable path to a better life than what we've been force fed for so many years, i.e., that being married and living in the suburbs and spending eight hours a day in a cubicle is a good way of life?

Post: #2

I have no experience teaching English, but I imagine teachers get into a rut because of the exact reasons you brought up. In most cases it's a low paying, dead-end job. I've heard it's difficult to teach in international schools.

Post: #3

It's a typical money trap: it pays well enough that it's tough to leave, even though the job does not hold many promises for future growth. It's hard to find a job that afford an enjoyable lifestyle abroad, but it's also really tough to use EFL teaching to get a non-EFL teaching job.

Post: #4

Cause it's not really seen as a "real job" and teachers are easily replaced combined with the pay being mediocre by western standards.

Post: #5

Recovering beta needs to stop opening up multiple threads.

Post: #6

The second coming of Johnbozzz.

To answer the question though, it's because they get all the benefits of geoarbitrage (access to feminine women, low cost of living, higher relative status etc) but they remain a wage slave.

This is a rut that's harder to get out of than that of the typical office drone because their lifestyle is so much better, thus they are comfortable and get complacent.

Post: #7

I don't want to paint all ESL teachers with a broad brush because there are exceptions, but below is my take.

I taught at a university in China for about two years. I was the youngest teacher at my school by about 3 decades. The other teachers were almost all divorced with kids in their home countries and had glaring issues with drinking and sex.

The people who fall into a rut with ESL tend to be LBHs (losers back home). That's not to say all ESL teachers are losers, but a lot are. Too many people work in ESL simply because it's absurdly easy to get jobs and no one cares if you're good or not. When you first start it's like heaven. You have tons of time to chase girls, party, travel - and all while getting paid! Before you know it years have gone by and you don't have much to put on your resume other than your stint at Happy Giraffe English in bumblefuck SEA. As most ESL teachers have 1 year contracts, they tend to plan their lives in such increments. This is a dangerous habit to get into if you want to do something else with your life.

Eventually the prospect of going home becomes far scarier than riding the ESL train. From my observations this tends to happen around the 5 year mark, but everyone's different. Many teachers want to do something else with their life and bemoan the lack of stimulation or respect they have at their job, but lack either the skills or determination to make a change. Instead they go deeper into the world of drinking and chasing pussy.

If you're in a country that places extreme value on money and success (they fucking worship money where I was), being an ESL teacher puts you on the bottom of the rung among expats as well as many locals. You earn a higher salary than average, but it won't impress people. And while your parents and peers in the West may talk about how cool the adventure you're having is, locals couldn't care less about your adventurous spirit or quest to find yourself and merely see you as a foreigner who makes less than a lot of locals despite coming from a rich country. Many (rightfully) assume you're a loser in your home country and that's why you left.

So, in a nutshell, it's lack of respect, stimulation, and development opportunities that drive a lot of ESL teachers nuts. The plethora of self-destructive activities available to expats only exasperates the problem. But the truth is many ESL teachers were nuts before even stepping into a classroom.

The ones that do OK tend to be interested in the local culture, speak the language, and don't try to change their host country. They accept it as is and try to create an actual life around that. The people that self destruct tend to hate their host country and its culture, not speak the language, and constantly bitch about how it's different from home. I don't know how the ride ends for these people as all the ones I know are still in Asia drifting from one job to the next. They'd never even consider coming "home" because having to start over career wise is too scary of a prospect. Hence they're essentially trapped abroad.

Post: #8

I spoke to Suits about this before I came to China and I agree with what he told me and I'll build on it.

A lot of English teachers become English teachers because they don't have a plan and they continue to live without a plan. Some English teachers are businessmen and approach teaching with a business mindset and end up making a shitload of money. I know a guy out here who makes over $100,000 a year because he is highly-credentialed and very serious. He runs a small English school in SZ and kills it.

Some guys use English teaching to get their foot in the door (and a visa) and then branch out into other things. But guys have to come here with a goal. You can't live in China forever on 2,500 dollars a month. You'll need more money as you get older. I know of a guy who came here to teach English and now runs a few websites and does internet marketing while still teaching students on the side and makes good income. But these guys had plans.

then you have guys who spend 10 years teaching the same shit over and over again and cap out at about 2,500 dollars a month. I know way too many guys like this and many of them are very bitter, but they have only themselves to blame. Imagine if they had spent 2 hours a day learning a new skill and then doing something with that. But most of those guys spend their evenings drinking and fucking 5s and then wake up at 40.

I'm not speaking like I'm better than anyone, but I do feel sorta like "whatever" when some 40 year old is bemoaning his station in China. No one fucked him over, he fucked himself over.

If you don't have a plan, I wouldn't suggest teaching English because you could just work some shit job back in USA and have more money and deal with less nonsense.

But I do think the English teacher route is viable for serious guys who can teach well. I know a few guys here who charge $100/hr and teach kids and they're doing way better than many other expats.

Me? I got here with a teaching job. Loved teaching but I found a job as a copywriter for a Chinese company and jumped ship. I've had so many expats tell me that you gotta have an exit plan for China because you never know when China will tell you "no visa renewal, sorry!" So I'm monetizing the skillset I learned in America so that if I get kicked out, I have something I can do back home or in another country. I got lucky, though.

It's all about how you do it.

Post: #9

(05-08-2016 09:27 PM)Shoubuliao Wrote:  I don't want to paint all ESL teachers with a broad brush because there are exceptions, but below is my take.

I taught at a university in China for about two years. I was the youngest teacher at my school by about 3 decades. The other teachers were almost all divorced with kids in their home countries and had glaring issues with drinking and sex.

The people who fall into a rut with ESL tend to be LBHs (losers back home). That's not to say all ESL teachers are losers, but a lot are. Too many people work in ESL simply because it's absurdly easy to get jobs and no one cares if you're good or not. When you first start it's like heaven. You have tons of time to chase girls, party, travel - and all while getting paid! Before you know it years have gone by and you don't have much to put on your resume other than your stint at Happy Giraffe English in bumblefuck SEA. As most ESL teachers have 1 year contracts, they tend to plan their lives in such increments. This is a dangerous habit to get into if you want to do something else with your life.

Eventually the prospect of going home becomes far scarier than riding the ESL train. From my observations this tends to happen around the 5 year mark, but everyone's different. Many teachers want to do something else with their life and bemoan the lack of stimulation or respect they have at their job, but lack either the skills or determination to make a change. Instead they go deeper into the world of drinking and chasing pussy.

If you're in a country that places extreme value on money and success (they fucking worship money where I was), being an ESL teacher puts you on the bottom of the rung among expats as well as many locals. You earn a higher salary than average, but it won't impress people. And while your parents and peers in the West may talk about how cool the adventure you're having is, locals couldn't care less about your adventurous spirit or quest to find yourself and merely see you as a foreigner who makes less than a lot of locals despite coming from a rich country. Many (rightfully) assume you're a loser in your home country and that's why you left.

So, in a nutshell, it's lack of respect, stimulation, and development opportunities that drive a lot of ESL teachers nuts. The plethora of self-destructive activities available to expats only exasperates the problem. But the truth is many ESL teachers were nuts before even stepping into a classroom.

The ones that do OK tend to be interested in the local culture, speak the language, and don't try to change their host country. They accept it as is and try to create an actual life around that. The people that self destruct tend to hate their host country and its culture, not speak the language, and constantly bitch about how it's different from home. I don't know how the ride ends for these people as all the ones I know are still in Asia drifting from one job to the next. They'd never even consider coming "home" because having to start over career wise is too scary of a prospect. Hence they're essentially trapped abroad.

I just realized your user name is shuobuliao, nice!

Post: #10

Lots of stuff going on in this thread and I can't help but notice some cynics, it's all good though.

In regards to the dead end thing, teaching is what you make of it. I'm writing an e-book at the moment geared to my students and I'll be releasing it to the country I'm in. If you're from the US and keep your nose clean you can move from ESL to working in the Foriegn Service. The key is to avoid the negativity and don't hang out with ex-pats. Take pride in what you do.

Post: #11

The way I see it is like this:

I considered teaching English abroad and in some respects I still do. You work less hours, make average pay, but it's the freedom I like. I've always wanted to start an online business of some sort, and with the spare time you get from teaching, it makes it possible to start something on the side.

When I was in university, they offered 20 hour weeks, making 1200 usd a month which is nothing. It's the 20 hours, however, that was enticing. 1200 usd a month is also worth more in cheaper countries. In addition, as long as you're productive with your spare time, I can't see why you'd get stuck in a rut.

Post: #12

I think you can say the same thing about a lot of jobs people do, or choices people make. Not everyone is going to go from English teacher to CEO, or has the will or skill to make a passive income empire. Some people just like to get by as the years flow over them. Nothing at all wrong with that. Would you say the same thing about teachers in the west? I would. I see it all the time. After the second year the romantic notions about "teaching" fly out the window, and it all boils down to "classroom management". They stay with it though, year in and year out. Why? Well the pay is decent, health coverage is awesome, pension is good, and summer breaks are really cool if you like to travel or spend time with your kids or family. And as stated above, everything is done by annual contracts so you don't really engage in long term planning. I've seen some miserable, unhappy teachers who never make a change- they just take it one year at a time, plan for a nice summer trip, and want to have cash flow secured for the following year so they can do it all over again. And if they are lucky enough to have a defined benefit pension, then they are just counting years until they can check out for retirement.

Also, teachers are horrible with money!! Almost every teacher I've worked with is flat ass broke and begging for an advance by the time August rolls around. I can't imagine the average person teaching English abroad is much better with their money. It's money in, money out, and as long as you spend 1 penny less than you earn, life is good.

I recently worked with a guy who was that stuck-in-a-rut 50 year old English teacher who decided it was time to come back to the US. Great credentials, good references, good interviews, seemed like he would be the perfect teacher. Wrong!!!

He had been in Malaysia forever, and after so many years, he morphed into a bitter creature that wasn't American and wasn't Malaysian. He didn't belong anywhere. He was stuck in the phantom borderland between two worlds. He was weird as hell, and he had developed mannerisms that just didn't work well here (like talking down to people as if he were God, trusting no one and thinking everyone is out to steal / screw you over as if it were Malaysia, and wasn't honest/ played stupid games). The few times I talked to him I could feel his hate of Malaysia coming through the phone...what a sad, bitter creature. He also thought he could bully administration around like he did when he was back in Malaysia, so we fired his ass for insubordination, among other things.

He did claim to have made 20,000 MYR (Malay) a month- equates to somewhere around $5k USD per month. Even after taxes I'm sure that was a good lifestyle, makes me wonder why you would even bother coming home.

That's just one example, but maybe these English teachers stay stuck in a rut because-
1) that's just life in general
2) they can't make it anywhere else

Post: #13

Some answers here are spot on.

The problem is the kind of people ESL attracts, their personality. 90% of the teachers I met in Japan/Korea/Thailand were just your typical vegetarian backpacking loser. They simply had found a way to stay away from home a bit longer. Not different than any guy who worked at Shithole Hostel for the last 10 years .

Most of them had no ambitions and no plan in life. I remember one night in BKK I was talking with a bunch of guys about the best ways to invest your savings to have financial freedom in the future... and the ESL teacher on the table just said... you guys are greedy I don't need to be rich, if I have money at the end of the month I buy more beer. That's the kind of guy ESL attracts.

Now other guys, like the ones on this forum, can really profit if they are smart. It's a great way to get local contacts, get your first abroad experience, or just spend a couple years in exotic lands without destroying your CV.

I met a really cool South African guy in Seoul. He started as an ESL, but by his third year in Korea he was already the boss of his own language school, co owned a guesthouse and had real estate for rental income. Guy had also become fluent in Korean, Japanese and Mandarin (saw him have long conversation in all three of them without ever switching to English).

A winner can win if he starts as a ESL teacher, but the job attracts mostly losers.

Post: #14

(05-08-2016 01:22 PM)Recovering Beta Wrote:  I think you can make a life of it if you have an undergraduate degree, then an advanced degree in linguistics, English literature, education, or something related to this field. Teachers with a master's degree can get jobs in international schools that pay quite well; teachers with a doctorate have a wide range of universities to choose from.

The path to professional advancement in EFL is a Masters in Teaching English as a Second/Foreign Language, not in linguistics, literature or education. Alternatively, a DELTA qualification or similar. With that, plus experience, you qualify for school director, teacher trainer or university prof.

Post: #15

Does this still apply for teaching in Latin America? I wonder if you get paid as much there, and whether opportunities for starting your own school etc. are as feasible.

Post: #16

The same reason bums get into a rut. At least in Thailand...

I watched one documentary where they interviewed some beach bum. An American black guy, 50ish, and healthy from the look of things, though he wore bummy clothes and probably stunk to high heaven. He said: "No one shoots at me here. I gots lots of nice friends who look after me. No drug runners comin' to plug my ass in my sleep. I like it better here than New York though I'm still broke. Way better life. I ain't starvin' here neither."

Could he improve himself in Thailand? Raise himself above his admittedly comfortable bum life? Sure, just like so many other busted dudes there. Will they? Probably not. Most won't for the simple reason that doing so would require stepping out of their comfort zone and taking a risk.

Post: #17

A lot of foreign guys end up with girlfriends in these parts of the world. Get stuck here with them and eventually go into marriage and kids, while not learning the language, so they just keep with the teaching job. In EFL world you are not really developing any skills, even the contacts your are obtaining aren't going to take you seriously in a career sense. Of course your students will love you and think you are a cool teacher, but even if you have aspirations, you will be incredibly lucky for them to let you into their world.

The far East, even Russia to a much lesser extent, would be a sort of refuge for people who didn't fit in, for better or for worse. It is actually incredibly easy to just drift your 20s away being an ESL teacher. I did some of this myself in the pursuit of starting up a business. I had a fantastic experience but ESL teaching in itself can be seriously soul destroying.

Post: #18

The ones I know just never grew up.

They ran away on their backpacking trip and decided to stay for 20 years, avoiding being a grown up and all that work and responsibility is not such a bad thing.

Much better than wifeing up, kids mortgage and then divorce rape.

Post: #19

I've seen this play out far an far over again in Korea with a lot of English teachers.

Its also a matter of game also.

A large number of the people that come to Asia to teach are.. Off.
They are usually into the more odd parts of Asian society and make a fetish off of it.. which makes them extremely odd and not socialized in the states..or in the west for that matter.

In many Asian countries.. you pretty much just need to speak english and be willing to babysit. Because at least here in Korea..parents just want a white face to teach their kids.


The females usually come over and get jobs and become glorified babysitters.
They have a dream of meeting a Korean guy and having a relationship or paying of their debt from their basket weaving degree back in the west.
But westerners are fat compared to asians.
Most Korean men don't want to touch the lard on western women, let alone have a relationship.
Every now and then they will fuck a western girl. They call it "Riding the white horse" or something
Because they just want to fuck.. and Western girls are often much bigger than them.. they get bucked off and they never meet the chick again.
I've heard so many chicks tell the same story.. of guys that will meet them under the guise that they wanna get better at english...then give the girl a couple little dick strokes and block the number.

English teachers makes some decent money.. but they usually go blow it all at western themed bars that are more expensive.
They get shitfaced on the regular and don't save money like they thought they would.

Eventually they go back home thinking that they have international work skill. Any real employer knows that they spent their time drinking and babysitting. Essentially the English teacher has no real skill, only enough money to last a couple months in the west.. and still has debt.

So they repeat the process over an over again.


The men have the same problem.. only they try to bang little Korean girls.
But their yellow fever and fetishes eventually annoy a lot of Korean girls and their general lack of socialization eventually stops being an excuse in Asia.

Its extremely easy to bang some of these western girls.. because he guys coming to Korea are chasing Korean women.. the Western Women are just stuck drunk in the bar or on tinder.
I've had western girls take multi hour trains to meet me.. just to spend the night and fuck..they are starving for dick.
But I've since stopped doing that.. because their attitudes and mannerisms are just so bad.
One girl got drunk in my house and could barely stand.. she kept begging me to fuck her.
I made her sleep in the spare bedroom...The next morning she started cooking a a bunch of food in my house and apologizing.
I fucked her.. and had a friend call me pretending he was my boss and I needed to go to work.
That was my excuse to drop her off at the train station.