Post: #1

Hey all,

I just want an outside opinion on a potential legal issue that a buddy and I are currently dealing with. I know every body thinks their side of the story is the correct narrative and I'd like to view this objectively. I'm not a lawyer nor very knowledgeable in the legal arena so any advice or opinions would be appreciated. Here are the facts (in bullets and chronological):

-Let a 3rd "buddy" move in with my friend (Dave) and I. "Buddy" went to high school with me in the midwest and I brought him under my wing to help him get situated out west. He may be borderline autistic, but I enjoyed his company.

-Signed a lease for a big 3 bedroom house in a great area in town (a place my friend Dave and I couldn't afford on our own (we are/were young).

- Dave and I come back from a 3 week adventure in Thailand to find Buddy's room completely empty with a note saying he was moving in with his "girlfriend" because he couldn't take the "vibes" in our house anymore. Claimed that he would still pay his share of rent. Due to him being broke as hell and goofier than a bed bug; I didn't hold my breath. I was pretty hurt about the whole thing, having helped him with a lot of things (Getting a job, brought him out of the country on my miles, introduced him to pretty strong connections here in town, down to helping him register his car at the DMV)-- Pretty much everything short of wiping his ass.

However:

-He claimed he moved out because of "bad vibes" and couldn't concentrate on his "artistic" career. He moved in with his girlfriend... *His first girlfriend/lay ever* and this girl is a piece of work. --- (Hopefully these pieces of information can fill in the red pill gaps on why he moved).

-We let it go and got over it but he continued to pay rent as promised. I was impressed and thankful, but then again he was legally obligated due to the 12 month lease he signed with us.

*Fast Forward 2 months*

-Dave's coworker was down on his luck and between places to live. A real nice guy, just fell on hard times.

-We let him put all of his stuff in our garage and crash on our couch for a couple of weeks until he could find a place to live. He was still employed so he gave us a couple hundred bucks for allowing him to stay. We didn't ask, he just gave.

-He ended up staying something like 5 weeks. We allowed him to move some of his belongings into Buddy's bedroom as he was MIA and it was an empty room. Keep in mind, Buddy had a key to the house and could enter whenever he wanted to and reclaim his room. He never did; but the option was always there.

*Fast Forward to move out time*

-As Dave and I were hiring cleaning crews/landscapers/etc for the move out inspection, we figured that we would give Buddy 1/3 of the amount that Dave's coworker had given us. We figured that since he was still paying 1/3 of the bills, he should get 1/3 of the "proceeds".

-As we called Buddy to tell him that we were going to give him a couple hundred bucks and explained as to why, he went APE. Full on rage that someone else had been staying at the house in his stead, while he was paying rent. We explained to Buddy we did not sublet his room or charge market rate for rent, the guy just gave us some cash because we helped him out so much (was not a large sum).

-So Buddy goes absolutely nuts and starts claiming he is going to sue us for a couple thousand dollars (basically rent he paid to fulfill he share of the lease). We tried to explain the situation but Buddy wouldn't come up for air... Just kept threatening us over the phone.

-He then resorted to Facebook to slander (maybe its Libel?) us saying that we could not be trusted with anything, that we were horrible people, slandering my business, and calling Dave every name in the book. This was to all of our mutual friends and some family members, which equated to a decent size.

-We took screenshots of his freakout and he proceeded to send us a handwritten demand of payment to our place(s) of employment for the amount of $2,300 and some change.

-We did not consent.

-He is now trying to serve us small claims papers which is why I am writing this post. I was out of town working and got a call from my office saying the constable was there with papers for me. I also got a call from the Sherriffs constable as well. I let it go to voicemail.


I'm not trying to skirt around the law or not own up to anything that is owed to anyone, but I feel that this is completely unnecessary. If I get served due process, I'll have to miss work and so will Dave. Furthermore, it's already done plenty to damage my reputation (letters being sent to work, constable showing up, facebook slander). I'm wondering what to do?

Should I?

A) Allow myself (and Dave) to get served?
B) Keep disregarding the service?
C) Get on the offensive and sue Buddy for the move out fees he never reimbursed us for-- as well as the business slander?

Would love some third party opinions.

Thanks guys.

Post: #2

Let them serve you and explain in court you were using the empty bedroom as storage and you let a temporary guest crash on the couch. IMO a judge would probably understand. If anyone at work asks, tell them you had a crazy roommate. Your business rep should not depend on one kook's word, just laugh at anyone who mentions it and say, yeah that guy is messed up and doesn't know what he's talking about. Your work stands on it's own quality, end of discussion. "Buddy" sounds mental, be glad he played his hand early and you can cut him out of your life now.

Post: #3

(05-23-2016 09:07 PM)Engineer Wrote:  Let them serve you and explain in court you were using the empty bedroom as storage and you let a temporary guest crash on the couch. IMO a judge would probably understand. If anyone at work asks, tell them you had a crazy roommate. Your business rep should not depend on one kook's word, just laugh at anyone who mentions it and say, yeah that guy is messed up and doesn't know what he's talking about. Your work stands on it's own quality, end of discussion. "Buddy" sounds mental, be glad he played his hand early and you can cut him out of your life now.

That's what I have been doing in regards to mutual friends or acquaintances asking what it's all about. I just shrug and say the guy lost his marbles... which...is true.

For the most part though--- anyone who knows Dave and I-- and "Buddy" as well...know that he is a kook and would expect nothing less out of him.

Post: #4

And I used to think I had some bad roommates. Maybe the guy didn't hear that it was only 5 weeks that someone was staying there? I've been through court several times, in any legal proceeding documentation is key. Write something up saying "Friend stayed at house for 4.5 weeks from X date to Y date (make up dates if necessary). Friend slept on the couch for the entire time and had one suitcase and 3 pairs of shoes which he kept in Buddy's room inside the door against the left wall. Upon moving out Friend volunteered to pay us $Z unprompted, we offered 1/3 this to Buddy to be fair, which brought on the current situation." Get Friend to sign it, in presence of notary might be best.

I don't think there are many judges in the world who would rule against you in this case. Dress well for court, be confident, polite, and mildly submissive, use "Your honor" whenever addressing the judge.

Post: #5

The part where you fucked up was far, FAR before your current issue, letting a fuckup into your lease. If you'd left him as simply a sublessor or better without any agreement at all, you could've fired his belongings and replaced him as a roommate at any sign of trouble.

However, since you're at where you are, I'd recommend the following.

Respond to the small claims court and show up. Give them all the negative towards him and be honest with the positive. Tell him that you let your friend stay on the couch and that you tried your best to be communicative with the asshole about it and that he blindsided you with the anger towards having a few boxes/things be in his empty room. You thought it was okay and you're putting your best foot forward by giving what you thought was a fair distribution of the small amount of money you got from your couch friend to the asshole (don't use that term). You're open to a fair assessment of the situation, but you in no way caused any harm or discomfort to the asshole with what happened, you were doing your best to deal with a situation that was made more complicated by your absentee roommate (and list all his weirdness, especially if it violated at least in spirit your agreement).

You're an idiot for letting it get to small claims court and for letting him move out based on "bad vibes" as he has the upper hand since you never attempted to sort out the "bad vibes" and you let him pay full rent on a sweet place.

You backed yourself into a corner, you need to do the best to get yourself out of it (and don't end up on the bad side of good faith efforts).

Sorry if this is harsh, but the reality of it is that you never should've had anyone else live in the house without the express written consent of the guy who said there were "bad vibes" even if it was a bald-faced lie as you gave him a perfect example for a judge or anyone outside of the situation for "bad vibes" to be present/justified.

Also, the below is good advice. Also keep in mind that any documentation you can bring forth of the asshole trying to affect your employment or harass you by way of coworkers or other friends shows "bad faith" and you can use it in your court case:

(05-23-2016 09:30 PM)Gorgiass Wrote:  And I used to think I had some bad roommates. Maybe the guy didn't hear that it was only 5 weeks that someone was staying there? I've been through court several times, in any legal proceeding documentation is key. Write something up saying "Friend stayed at house for 4.5 weeks from X date to Y date (make up dates if necessary). Friend slept on the couch for the entire time and had one suitcase and 3 pairs of shoes which he kept in Buddy's room inside the door against the left wall. Upon moving out Friend volunteered to pay us $Z unprompted, we offered 1/3 this to Buddy to be fair, which brought on the current situation." Get Friend to sign it, in presence of notary might be best.

I don't think there are many judges in the world who would rule against you in this case. Dress well for court, be confident, polite, and mildly submissive, use "Your honor" whenever addressing the judge.

Also, if the court offers you "mediation" I would take it as long as if you don't agree in mediation you can still go to small claims court. Another showing of "good faith" effort which will help you in the long term.

Also, I'd highly recommend in the future that you don't get into situations where you cannot afford the fallout of another person changing their mind. You were very lucky that this guy paid full rent despite a situation he didn't perceive as good. I highly recommend renting a place where you're the sole lease-holder and you carefully screen future roommates and have an iron-clad agreement so you can kick them out swiftly (in many areas you as a live-in roommate being the only person on the lease, you have vastly more power than an owner and their renters).

Post: #6

(05-23-2016 09:32 PM)AneroidOcean Wrote:  The part where you fucked up was far, FAR before your current issue, letting a fuckup into your lease. If you'd left him as simply a sublessor or better without any agreement at all, you could've fired his belongings and replaced him as a roommate at any sign of trouble.

We signed up for the house together. Rent was to be shared equitably 3 ways for the next 12 months

However, since you're at where you are, I'd recommend the following.

Respond to the small claims court and show up. Give them all the negative towards him and be honest with the positive. Tell him that you let your friend stay on the couch and that you tried your best to be communicative with the asshole about it and that he blindsided you with the anger towards having a few boxes/things be in his empty room. You thought it was okay and you're putting your best foot forward by giving what you thought was a fair distribution of the small amount of money you got from your couch friend to the asshole (don't use that term). You're open to a fair assessment of the situation, but you in no way caused any harm or discomfort to the asshole with what happened, you were doing your best to deal with a situation that was made more complicated by your absentee roommate (and list all his weirdness, especially if it violated at least in spirit your agreement).

He was a goofy cat, but for the most part just stayed in his room. Major liability when he'd come out with us though (Drank way to much and got very sloppy). His finances were always a wreck, to which I always played the bank and at one time he owed me 3k. Never charged interest or anything like that-- just said get it back to me when you can. Still short 3 or 4 hundred bucks. I let it go.

You're an idiot for letting it get to small claims court and for letting him move out based on "bad vibes" as he has the upper hand since you never attempted to sort out the "bad vibes" and you let him pay full rent on a sweet place.

Here is where the situation gets weird, but I believe i've figured it out:

-He moved out (packed his stuff and left) when Dave and I were in Thailand... a world away. We didn't know about any of this until we got back to the states. He would only speak to us via text. Big man... can't say anything to our faces, no prior warning, leaves when we can't contest or ask questions, and will only explain via novel sized text messages. Later on in the saga, takes his big boy antics to facebook. If anything, should show you guys (and the judge/mediator) what kind of emotional level this guy operates on.

He claimed he moved out because we weren't good friends to him, etc, etc, (which is complete shit)-- he moved out because he got oneitus for his first girlfriend he met a couple of months prior. He was looking for any and every excuse in the book to move in with her (she was having "financial problems") so he turned Dave and I into the big bad wolves so he could scoot over there without feeling like such a sellout. No one volunteers to pay full rent after they move out if they don't feel guilty about being in the wrong.

You backed yourself into a corner, you need to do the best to get yourself out of it (and don't end up on the bad side of good faith efforts).

Sorry if this is harsh, but the reality of it is that you never should've had anyone else live in the house without the express written consent of the guy who said there were "bad vibes" even if it was a bald-faced lie as you gave him a perfect example for a judge or anyone outside of the situation for "bad vibes" to be present/justified.

Fortunately, in our lease-- it states that anyone residing in the house for under 45 days is considered to be a guest. Our friend only stayed a little over a month, so we are within those parameters. We weren't trying to be cute and double book anyone. We let him store his stuff in our garage and crash at our place. Dave actually drove him to work as well. There was no financial motive for us. I'm sure a lot of you guys here would do the same for a buddy who was down.

Also, the below is good advice. Also keep in mind that any documentation you can bring forth of the asshole trying to affect your employment or harass you by way of coworkers or other friends shows "bad faith" and you can use it in your court case:

You bet. We have screenshots of all the slander he spewed on social media. The friend that we let stay with us also said he'd come in as a witness or sign an attestation to his length of stay.

(05-23-2016 09:30 PM)Gorgiass Wrote:  And I used to think I had some bad roommates. Maybe the guy didn't hear that it was only 5 weeks that someone was staying there? I've been through court several times, in any legal proceeding documentation is key. Write something up saying "Friend stayed at house for 4.5 weeks from X date to Y date (make up dates if necessary). Friend slept on the couch for the entire time and had one suitcase and 3 pairs of shoes which he kept in Buddy's room inside the door against the left wall. Upon moving out Friend volunteered to pay us $Z unprompted, we offered 1/3 this to Buddy to be fair, which brought on the current situation." Get Friend to sign it, in presence of notary might be best.

I don't think there are many judges in the world who would rule against you in this case. Dress well for court, be confident, polite, and mildly submissive, use "Your honor" whenever addressing the judge.

Also, if the court offers you "mediation" I would take it as long as if you don't agree in mediation you can still go to small claims court. Another showing of "good faith" effort which will help you in the long term.

Mediation would be ideal, but this fruitloop won't settle for anything less than what he is "entitled" to. Mediation will more than likely be a bust, but at least we will know where we stand with a third party. If it helps, Dave and I are both professionals in demeanor and profession. Buddy... is a whack job.

Also, I'd highly recommend in the future that you don't get into situations where you cannot afford the fallout of another person changing their mind. You were very lucky that this guy paid full rent despite a situation he didn't perceive as good. I highly recommend renting a place where you're the sole lease-holder and you carefully screen future roommates and have an iron-clad agreement so you can kick them out swiftly (in many areas you as a live-in roommate being the only person on the lease, you have vastly more power than an owner and their renters).

Thanks for the advice ^ -- It's sad it had to get this far. We offered him his 1/3 and he flipped. Now he's shooting for the moon and to get all the rent back that he paid since he left.

After signing a lease... isn't he legally obligated to do that anyway?

Post: #7

It could get really tricky with small claims and housing rentals. It will depend heavily on your state law, and if applicable, local law. Hopefully your post is anonymous enough that someone researching the case won't be able to pull it up. In any event, I could see an issue here- you knowingly and willingly conveyed "buddy's" room to a different 3rd party. Whether you put in a box of shoes or moved in a circus elephant is irrelevant- his room was violated. His case does have some merit. Did you admit to him that you violated his room??

I echo the advice from above- use this as a learning lesson- roommates suck, and so do crazy people. No reason to have crazy people / losers in your life.

You aren't a charity. Quit acting like one. You can't save every stray cat. From your post above, you've tried to save two. Your reward- libel, defamation of your character, loss of friendship, stress, loss of time, and potentially a legal liability. It's not worth it.

I don't know why you would want to hide from being served. It won't go away just because you hide. What about the next time you are at the office and the sheriff shows up and makes a big scene?? I've seen guys served at work, and it's embarrassing.

Post: #8

As others have said, it is pointless to avoid being served. People unfamiliar with service of process have this idea that as long as they avoid being physically handed the papers (called personal service) then the court process can't move forward.

This is not the case. After multiple failed attempts they can serve you via U.S. Mail, it's called substitute service. No avoiding that. And, if no address is known, you can even be served via publication, i.e. a newspaper.

As long as the rules were followed, it doesn't even matter if you actually ever saw or received the summons in the case of mail or newspaper, it will be considered a valid service. Then, the case will still go ahead, you will not be there, and there will be a default judgement issued against you.

The point is, you will be served regardless, so you should actually be wanting the documents in order to know what he's asking for and what statutes he's suing you under so you can have the most time to prepare and the best chance at winning. There may be enough of a grey area at play in the circumstance described that the judge could possibly rule for a compromise. That is if, and only if, you spend some time researching the relevant laws and formulating an argument, preferably one wherein you can reference statute in support.

Avoiding this though, is a sure loss.

Post: #9

If he was still paying rent it does seem rather iffy to let someone use his room and effectively charge him for it without getting that occupants consent. If I were a judge I'd have an issue with that as you seemed to disclose this after the fact rather than before. A Judge would have to not view it as "double recovery"

Effectively it may look as though you have one guy paying rent yet you then go rent his room out to get more.

Avoiding service will just lead to substituted service as GlobalMan has alluded to.

The key document is the lease. That should outline tenant rights / liabilities.

The liber / slander issue is different and it depends on what he said, the damage it caused. If it caused you to lose a contract / employment etc. then you'd likely have a case on that ground.

Post: #10

I don't know if he can argue that it's his room. Does it have a separate entrance accessible to the outside where you can enter the room without entering the apartment? His third of the rent covers the entire apartment, kitchen, bathroom, living room, etc. What you could have done is have the guy that was in his room, pay the amount that the absentee roomie was paying sort of a sub-let of sorts.

Post: #11

Thanks for the replies. I'll get the papers today.

The room was his to use and he still had a key to the house to come back whenever. The fourth guy gave us some cash for:

1)to store his stuff in the garage
2) For me to help him with finance issues
3) for dave driving him to and from work
4) for letting him crash on our couch


The cash was incidental. His stay was under 45 days (lease terms that as a guest) and we tried to give Buddy his 1/3 of the money. We wouldn't do that if we were trying to bill and pull a quick one on him. He just up and left, there was no way to even talk to him about it.

This should go on the no good deed goes unpunished thread.

Post: #12

I agree with most of the comments posted here but would take a different tact with the situation.

1: I am surprised that he bothered with having you served by a constable. In most states, sending the summons by first class mail in a small claims matter would have been good enough and would be done by the court itself, not by a constable hired by the plaintiff. (Can you tell us what state this is in? That would help to look up the local rules on small claims courts.)

Also, I would check the local small claims court rules, usually the court mails out the initial complaint and it is not served. I am wondering if the guy is 'screaming' that he is going to sue you in small claims, but just wrote up something himself, has filed nothing in court, and trying to scare you out of money that you would not owe him (or just being generally 'nutty' even if he does have some claim to recover on.).

2: While you probably should not have allowed 'his' room to be used while he was not there, or without his permission, I would take the tact that he did nothing to stop its usage and was not even aware it was in use. i.e. If it goes to court, I would put it on him to explain how he suffered a loss since HE never did anything to check on the situation and suffered no loss of use since he was not using the room. Also make the points that if he came back that he could have stayed elsewhere in the house, and that the only reason he continued to pay was because he was obligated under the lease as owing the money since he moved out on his own. I would also argue that you were trying to help him reduce his loss on the lease.

3: The things that is being sent to you, it is possible that it is a '30 day demand letter' and not a claim filed in the court. A '30 day demand letter' is usually a requirement before a case is filed in small claims in order to get additional damages, if they are available. Again, if the document that the guy is trying to serve on you is the '30 day demand letter', then it demonstrates that he does not know what he is doing, since sending that by first class mail to your residence would be sufficient, and no one has those served.

4: The fact the guy is 'running around' and telling on you to everyone leads me to believe more that he does not know what he is doing and just trying to cause you problems. I would suggest that the next time you are in contact with him (or send him a ceases and desist letter) that you consider his claim to be without merit, and that if he continues to 'run around' telling on you to everyone, that you will sue him for defamation, libel and slander, plus call the police to report him for harassment. I think after you do that you will find that he shuts up and leaves everyone alone.

Post: #13

Why don't you just deny having let another dude sleep in this room?

Surely you were never recorded admitting to such a "fact"? Surely they won't forcefully bring (subpoena) the 4th guy (the one who slept in said room for a few days) to testify, over this.

I mean, just deny. Nobody else ever slept in this room, end of story. Let them try to prove otherwise...

Post: #14

(05-24-2016 12:04 PM)EvanWilson Wrote:  I agree with most of the comments posted here but would take a different tact with the situation.

1: I am surprised that he bothered with having you served by a constable. In most states, sending the summons by first class mail in a small claims matter would have been good enough and would be done by the court itself, not by a constable hired by the plaintiff. (Can you tell us what state this is in? That would help to look up the local rules on small claims courts.)

Nevada state law; if that helps. It is service papers. He already sent us priority mail "demanding" payment. We clearly did not accept those terms, so they went unanswered.

Also, I would check the local small claims court rules, usually the court mails out the initial complaint and it is not served. I am wondering if the guy is 'screaming' that he is going to sue you in small claims, but just wrote up something himself, has filed nothing in court, and trying to scare you out of money that you would not owe him (or just being generally 'nutty' even if he does have some claim to recover on.).

Pretty sure he did do something through the courts. The Sheriff's constable has called me twice now asking where he can get ahold of me via voicemail. I have been busy with work and travel, but also figuring out how to sort this out. 100% these are service papers. I almost want to go to court to get it over with, but I think I have legitimate claims with his slander and him not knowing 100% of the facts. He also just left and we tried to fairly compensate him for 1/3 of the incidental revenue.

2: While you probably should not have allowed 'his' room to be used while he was not there, or without his permission, I would take the tact that he did nothing to stop its usage and was not even aware it was in use. i.e. If it goes to court, I would put it on him to explain how he suffered a loss since HE never did anything to check on the situation and suffered no loss of use since he was not using the room. Also make the points that if he came back that he could have stayed elsewhere in the house, and that the only reason he continued to pay was because he was obligated under the lease as owing the money since he moved out on his own. I would also argue that you were trying to help him reduce his loss on the lease.

It started out as just the garage, then it went to him sleeping on the couch, then we said he could place his things in Buddy's bedroom-- subject to change if Buddy resumes where he left off.

3: The things that is being sent to you, it is possible that it is a '30 day demand letter' and not a claim filed in the court. A '30 day demand letter' is usually a requirement before a case is filed in small claims in order to get additional damages, if they are available. Again, if the document that the guy is trying to serve on you is the '30 day demand letter', then it demonstrates that he does not know what he is doing, since sending that by first class mail to your residence would be sufficient, and no one has those served.

Demand letter has already been sent. These are service papers.

4: The fact the guy is 'running around' and telling on you to everyone leads me to believe more that he does not know what he is doing and just trying to cause you problems. I would suggest that the next time you are in contact with him (or send him a ceases and desist letter) that you consider his claim to be without merit, and that if he continues to 'run around' telling on you to everyone, that you will sue him for defamation, libel and slander, plus call the police to report him for harassment. I think after you do that you will find that he shuts up and leaves everyone alone.

His claims are definitely without warrant. Calling me a thief/fraud is especially hurtful due to the fact I am in finance. I would venture to guess that 98% of people know he's off kilter and nutty, but that extra 2% who could've been business; that hurts. Also hurts me emotionally (a tough guy can admit) that all we tried to do was help him-- and like the posters above mentioned-- no good deed goes unpunished. I've learned my lesson but I have better things to do than to deal with these shenanigans.

If I counter-sued, what would there be to gain? He has absolutely nothing, which is why he is going so hard on this "case".

Post: #15

(05-24-2016 12:16 PM)Going strong Wrote:  Why don't you just deny having let another dude sleep in this room?

Surely you were never recorded admitting to such a "fact"? Surely they won't forcefully bring (subpoena) the 4th guy (the one who slept in said room for a few days) to testify, over this.

I mean, just deny. Nobody else ever slept in this room, end of story. Let them try to prove otherwise...

Dave already sent buddy a text message saying we had a guy there and we wanted to give him some money. Plus, us lying to the courts and about the situation only proves his point. I'm an honest guy when it comes to financial things, always- Which is why my business remains to be on point.

Post: #16

As a follow up after getting more information from OP.

1: No need to volunteer for service. The guy is nuts. I would not do anything to 'help the process along'. I made that mistake once with a restraining order instead of letting it expire after ten days, I went to the police station and volunteered for service. I was living with friends two weeks after moving out of a shared house with a woman, and had no residence so it was impossible to serve me. I wanted to 'clear my name', hired a lawyer, and got rewarded with a one year restraining order from a woman that later admitted she was all messed up on medication. When the one year was up she wrote some idiotic letter to the court saying she didn't know what she was doing or something like that. The money spent on my lawyer and in court was a complete and total waste. If I had NOT volunteered for service, the order would have expired after ten days, taken no effort on my part, and cost me zero.

If they (Sheriff's department) are so incompetent or lazy that they can't even be bothered to come to your residence when you are there, I see no need for you to make it easy for them. Typically I would volunteer depending on the situation, but since the guy seems to be a real nutcase, I see no need to make it easier and if they give up trying to serve you, the whole thing may 'go away'.

2: I suspect the real agenda is that the guy does not want to keep paying rent on a place that he really does not want to use anymore and this is his way of trying to get out of the lease.

3: One thing that did occur to me, I do not know how much longer you have on the lease, but you may want to consider trying to get him taken off of the lease and splitting the payments for the remaining time between you and your other room mate. The reason I would consider doing this is if this guy really is a mess, he could very easily end up getting kicked out of the girlfriends place. If that happens, he would have no where else to go and end up back at your place, and if he is still on the lease, you would have to let him back in. If you think things are unpleasant now, imagine what they could be like if he moved back in, plus was all messed up from his princess rejecting him. (I do not know why, but I think a break up is just a matter of when, not if, and expected since the guy is already nutty, will become far worse than anything you have seen so far.)

One problem is that the landlord may not want to let him off of the lease, since three people being responsible for the apartment is better than two, but if you explain that the guy is nuts, the landlord may want to get him off of the lease so he doesn't have problems with the guy. (You can mention that if the guy comes back, you and the other room mate may end up leaving, and the nutty one may be in the apartment, unable to pay for it and forcing the landlord to do an eviction.)

4: If you stay beyond the end of the lease, I would recommend that you change the locks the day after the current lease expires. You can't do that while the guy is still on the lease since he does have a right to be able to come into the place, but once the lease expires, change the locks.


At the moment, I would recommend doing nothing. Until and unless you get served, the whole thing may go away.

Post: #17

(05-24-2016 07:26 PM)EvanWilson Wrote:  As a follow up after getting more information from OP.

1: No need to volunteer for service. The guy is nuts. I would not do anything to 'help the process along'. I made that mistake once with a restraining order instead of letting it expire after ten days, I went to the police station and volunteered for service. I was living with friends two weeks after moving out of a shared house with a woman, and had no residence so it was impossible to serve me. I wanted to 'clear my name', hired a lawyer, and got rewarded with a one year restraining order from a woman that later admitted she was all messed up on medication. When the one year was up she wrote some idiotic letter to the court saying she didn't know what she was doing or something like that. The money spent on my lawyer and in court was a complete and total waste. If I had NOT volunteered for service, the order would have expired after ten days, taken no effort on my part, and cost me zero.

If they (Sheriff's department) are so incompetent or lazy that they can't even be bothered to come to your residence when you are there, I see no need for you to make it easy for them. Typically I would volunteer depending on the situation, but since the guy seems to be a real nutcase, I see no need to make it easier and if they give up trying to serve you, the whole thing may 'go away'.

2: I suspect the real agenda is that the guy does not want to keep paying rent on a place that he really does not want to use anymore and this is his way of trying to get out of the lease.

3: One thing that did occur to me, I do not know how much longer you have on the lease, but you may want to consider trying to get him taken off of the lease and splitting the payments for the remaining time between you and your other room mate. The reason I would consider doing this is if this guy really is a mess, he could very easily end up getting kicked out of the girlfriends place. If that happens, he would have no where else to go and end up back at your place, and if he is still on the lease, you would have to let him back in. If you think things are unpleasant now, imagine what they could be like if he moved back in, plus was all messed up from his princess rejecting him. (I do not know why, but I think a break up is just a matter of when, not if, and expected since the guy is already nutty, will become far worse than anything you have seen so far.)

One problem is that the landlord may not want to let him off of the lease, since three people being responsible for the apartment is better than two, but if you explain that the guy is nuts, the landlord may want to get him off of the lease so he doesn't have problems with the guy. (You can mention that if the guy comes back, you and the other room mate may end up leaving, and the nutty one may be in the apartment, unable to pay for it and forcing the landlord to do an eviction.)

4: If you stay beyond the end of the lease, I would recommend that you change the locks the day after the current lease expires. You can't do that while the guy is still on the lease since he does have a right to be able to come into the place, but once the lease expires, change the locks.


At the moment, I would recommend doing nothing. Until and unless you get served, the whole thing may go away.

Thank you for the in depth reply- Not sure if this changes anything but the lease has since expired a few months ago.

This all happened while doing the move out inspection. Told him that we were going to deduct cleaning fees, landscaper, pressure washer for driveway, etc equitably from any security deposit we received back; furthermore stating a couple extra hundred his way for allowing Dave's buddy to stay with us. He found out about that and went ape.

Sad part is, if we were a-holes and didn't disclose the fact-- none of this would have happened. But what's done is done-- now to find out where to go from here.

I try not to let it bother me, so I just focus on work and more work. I even volunteer to meet clients out and about for the next couple of weeks

Post: #18

Ah man I would've done the same thing on this!! This is one of those big learning experiences for you my friend! When pussy ass dudes are involved... the "no good deed goes unpunished" mantra is very very true!

Post: #19

With respect to service, you should look check the relevant law/court rules to see whether they can bypass the normal rules of service if you continue to "evade" service (I'm not implying that you are doing that, but that will be your ex-roommate's "take" on the situation) and simply post it to you or even have you "deemed" served. You should also check and see if a failure to effect service within a specified time period causes the claim to fail . If the former than you might as well accept service and get on with it. If the latter than if you can avoid service, there's a good possibility the claim will just go away.

As others have suggested you should check the laws regarding property rental in your state as these sorts of laws tend to be slanted in favour of tenants over landlords. Luckily you aren't his landlord, but another tenant so there's a good chance that the laws aren't applicable in your situation but you should check nonetheless. Wait until you've been served. This will probably throw his action into the realm of general property law under a claim for trespass or similar.

If you are served and it appears he has a claim against you, then if possible you want to counter claim against him. I don't know whether you can claim for defamation in small claims court but if possible that would be one avenue (however if you pursue him for defamation you need to check what preliminary steps you would need to take - possibly a pre-action letter or libel notice). This is purely defensive in nature. If he wins his suit against you but you are successful in your counter claim then you are entitled to "set off" your claim against his, thereby reducing or eliminating any monetary damages payable by you.

Not knowing what laws he is relying upon in his claim, I can't offer much specific advice on defending it, however, I think you chances are good should it go to court for the following reasons:

1. You are presumably joint tenants who were jointly responsible for the lease, so "his" room isn't specifically "his" from which he can bar others.
2. You didn't sublet his empty room which presumably would have required his explicit agreement as a leaseholder.
3. You offered him an equal share of the gratuity that your visitor offered you despite that fact that he was not inconvenienced by the presence of this person in any way.

Absent some specific provision of landlord/tenant law I don't think he has a case. He hasn't suffered any losses and in fact is in a better position through your generosity than he would have been otherwise.

Post: #20

This:

"with a note saying he was moving in with his "girlfriend" because he couldn't take the "vibes" in our house anymore."

He terminated any rights regarding the room. I hope you kept the note. He´s entitled to shit.

Nevertheless you should evaluate if it´s more costly to pay lawyers fees or just pay him directly the equivalent.

Post: #21

Everybody made all the important points. OP should be in good shape.

A few things though: 1) My bet, the girlfriend is the one who's got him riled up for the money. He'll never back down so don't look for a fair or nice solution.
2) In court, DO NOT TALK OVER THE JUDGE. Be respectful at all times. Wear a suit. Let buddy be the angry guy who sets off the judge, not you. Trigger him if you really want to.
3) When you get served, countersue for the cleaning costs and move out costs and bring receipts. Present to the judge evidence that both parties are out money in case he goes that way.
4) Do not bother to sue over the libel. Only the lawyers would win.
5) Stop trying to save stray cats. Focus on your business.

Post: #22

Where I'm from (New South Wales, Australia), this is not a legal matter.

Co-leasing is essentially a domestic situation and the use of the leased premises, provided it's within the bounds of the law, is to be decided by the those who are contracted to a tenancy agreement.

In the eyes of the law, if your name is on the contract, every room is yours to use as you see fit, same applies to Dave and your cuck ex-room mate.

In fact, he might have a bigger grievance if he was the subtenant, but that's irrelevant.

You offered him his share in a windfall, which was fair and equitable. I'm sure the judge will see it that way as well. HOWEVER, read up on your jurisdictions tenancy laws as they can differ greatly.

Post: #23

You're a better man than I because I would have kicked his ass. Then wound up with fifteen grand worth of legal crap.

Aloha!

Post: #24

I read the situation closer.

So, the lease is over, everyone has already moved out, and THEN the guy starts to claim he has a loss.

Based upon those facts, I think the guy has absolutely no case. He moved out to be with his girl friend. You and your room mate were not even at home for three weeks when he moved out.

If he really wanted to continue to live there, he had a legal right under the lease to be there, he had a key, and even could have gone to the police the enforce his right to be in the house. Instead, he does nothing, and knows nothing, until the lease is over.


I would still NOT volunteer for service, since if they never serve you then the whole thing will just go away.

Post: #25

(05-26-2016 07:47 PM)EvanWilson Wrote:  I read the situation closer.

So, the lease is over, everyone has already moved out, and THEN the guy starts to claim he has a loss.

Based upon those facts, I think the guy has absolutely no case. He moved out to be with his girl friend. You and your room mate were not even at home for three weeks when he moved out.

If he really wanted to continue to live there, he had a legal right under the lease to be there, he had a key, and even could have gone to the police the enforce his right to be in the house. Instead, he does nothing, and knows nothing, until the lease is over.


I would still NOT volunteer for service, since if they never serve you then the whole thing will just go away.

You have summed up the situation perfectly.

At this point I'm unsure as to what to do as he still owes us a couple hundred dollars for move out expenses listed above that we wrote off as collectible. Plus, is dealing with someone like that really worth it for a couple hundred? IMO, no.

We found the case online today and found out he's suing us for a couple grand... now it's getting beyond ridiculous.

At this point-- after him owing US money, the slander, the deputies showing up/calling, etc... I'd like to get on the offensive.

Not sure as to what I can do. I know our legal system isn't perfect, but just going around suing people willy nilly for arbitrary amounts of money is sickening.

Could we get a lawyer to make him go away and charge the bill to him? This matter shouldn't be taking my concentration away from work/family/social activities; but it really is.