Post: #1

Hi, I've been interested in Game for a long time now. As Tyler would say "A Hardcase Newbie". One of my biggest problems and sticking points is not that I'm afraid of rejection, rather, I either embrace it and to be honest I'm fed up with it. Any advice is appreciated at this point. I'm thinking I may actually benefit from routines and structure instead of just butchering the whole interaction while not giving a fuck of the outcome. I think I don't care enough if that makes sense? What course of direction would you give to your best friend if they felt the same way I do?

Post: #2

You have to want it. I don't think you do.

Post your approaches in The Approach Thread or start posting them in detail within this thread. What you look like and how you dress would be helpful.

That will demonstrate your commitment to us as well as yourself. Then we can help you adjust your behavior.

You get what you put in.

Post: #3

(05-28-2016 02:41 PM)Parox Wrote:  Hi, I've been interested in Game for a long time now. As Tyler would say "A Hardcase Newbie". One of my biggest problems and sticking points is not that I'm afraid of rejection, rather, I either embrace it and to be honest I'm fed up with it. Any advice is appreciated at this point. I'm thinking I may actually benefit from routines and structure instead of just butchering the whole interaction while not giving a fuck of the outcome. I think I don't care enough if that makes sense? What course of direction would you give to your best friend if they felt the same way I do?

It's easy to go so far into not-giving-a-fuck-ism that it will come out the other side like Ms. Pac Man into something that, to women, seems "tryhard" and disingenuous. Women can be pretty great at distinguishing between legitimate confidence, and false bravado.

"Outcome independence" needs to be calibrated just right. Women (the sane ones anyway) are definitely not going to bang a guy whose uncaring attitude goes over the line into something that feels abusive.

They know you wanna fuck 'em. You have to be just a tad thirsty or they're gonna think you're weird.

Post: #4

(05-28-2016 03:10 PM)XPQ22 Wrote:  It's easy to go so far into not-giving-a-fuck-ism that it will come out the other side like Ms. Pac Man into something that, to women, seems "tryhard" and disingenuous. Women can be pretty great at distinguishing between legitimate confidence, and false bravado.

This is where I'm at right now, I think it's part-bitterness, part-confusion about transitioning to an abundance mentality and not caring. Pretty sure I just have to keep ploughing through this stage to get there, but I sometimes come off as weirdly aggressive because, well, I am-- I'm trying to recalibrate and it takes time to work things out.

Post: #5

I wouldn't say I'm coming off as aggressive, at least, not towards anyone in particular. If anything I've become aloof to everything. I've become totally miscalibrated by hanging onto the advice for so long. Mentally, personally, I think it's helped with my fears but not my insecurities.

I will post my approaches in the approach thread. As for my fashion, it's very average, I've enlisted the help of some old girlfriends to take me shopping and 'make me look sexy'. Is this a bad idea? After all, it's women giving me fashion advice lol.

Legitimate Confidence or False Bravado? Well, like I say it's helped me mentally somewhat, especially the realisation that it doesn't mean much to get rejected as much as I thought, at the same time I started out with the 'Fake it til you make it' mentality so it's a long history of False Bravado that's built my character over time. Of course, this is now a problem.

I've definitely gotten lost with calibration in terms of outcome independence, like you say, I just come off as weird. I took the advice years ago to hang with guys who are naturally good with women. I followed bad boys around and have definitely picked up some abusive tendencies on a social level. This is through miscalibration though.

So what's the remedy? "If you keep doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting what you've always gotten" springs to mind. I'm sure calibration skills are something I need to put more effort into, from your replies that's one thing.

Post: #6

(05-29-2016 03:54 AM)Parox Wrote:  I've definitely gotten lost with calibration in terms of outcome independence, like you say, I just come off as weird. I took the advice years ago to hang with guys who are naturally good with women. I followed bad boys around and have definitely picked up some abusive tendencies on a social level. This is through miscalibration though.

So what's the remedy? "If you keep doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting what you've always gotten" springs to mind. I'm sure calibration skills are something I need to put more effort into, from your replies that's one thing.

WestIndianArchie's posts are a great place to start, along with the thread on "secret society."

It helps to put yourself in the shoes of the girl and think about her position. Women want to get laid...but they often can't just come out and go for it the way men do. You have to think about the girl you're with. What are her needs, what are her objectives, what makes her "tick." If you're coming off as abrasive you're coming off like you're not going to be sensitive to her needs for plausible deniability, etc. and no matter what her physical attraction for you is, she's probably not going to be down.

I mentioned on another thread with another guy having trouble and it seemed like the problem was he essentially just didn't know how to engage with people in a friendly, social way. I get the sense that many men on this forum are of a more "introverted" type, I'm an extrovert and I love being around people of all types, so perhaps this comes more naturally to me. I can see that if someone just is having trouble "reading people", quickly sizing them up and figuring out what their interests are and what makes them tick, and then hitting the right buttons, they're going to have problems with approaches.

Once you have some experience you don't have to worry about "thinking too much" because it just comes naturally - it becomes an aspect of your personality simply through repetition.

I suggested just going into a local coffee shop and chatting with the college girls working there - I do this all the time. I don't care if it puts me in their "friend zone" or whatever, I'm not out to bang them, I just want to stay in practice with it. When their eyes are lighting up the minute you walk in the door, and they actively seek you out on their breaks to engage with you and ask you about your life, that's when you're on the right track.

To me, "abundance mentality" is not an I don't give a fuck attitude, it's when you're putting girls in your friend zone and not vice versa.

Sometimes I want to shout "JUST BE A COOL GUY!" but I understand that for people who don't have years of social experience with a wide range of people this isn't particularly helpful...

Post: #7

By way of example, I'll tell you about Eddie. Who's Eddie? Eddie's a drunk in his 50s, who also likely suffers from mental illness, that hangs around a bar I like sometimes and makes a nuisance of himself. Makes a nuisance for me too, because girls don't want to come outside in the warm weather to be open to approaches when this guy is hanging around ranting at people. Everyone wants Eddie to fuck off, but this place is small enough that there's no regular security staff. An off-duty cop stopped by for a while and threatened Eddie, told him that if he didn't fuck off he'd be spending the night in jail. It worked for a while, at least until the cop left, at which point Eddie was up to his old tricks again.

People treat Eddie with great hostility and generally like dirt, as you might expect. Sometimes if you're nasty enough to him, he'll buzz off for a while. But..."The cat came back, the very next day..."

So what to do? I took a minute to think about Eddie. He probably had a life tougher than anyone could imagine...broken home, mental issues, alcoholism. Horrific by anyone's standards. He's not a panhandler; I noticed he didn't ask a single person for money. Why is Eddie running around drunkenly rambling at people?

I told Eddie to take a walk with me, had a cigarette with him, and just talked with him for five minutes like he was one of the guys. He was a little difficult to understand through the slurring, but I asked him questions about his life and engaged with him the same way I would anyone else. He eventually challenged me to a handshake contest, which he won easily...he's got big bear hands that could squeeze the life out of you.

After this walk Eddie seemed pleased, told me to have a good night, crossed the street and hopped on the next bus, never to bother anyone again for the rest of the evening.

Everyone else was so concerned about their own need to not be bothered, they didn't think about Eddie at all. What Eddie wanted was - simply to feel accepted. He's likely never been accepted anywhere in his entire terrible, miserable life.

But just by taking a few minutes to give him what he wanted, Eddie was relaxed and happy as a clam. He does a pretty great cover of ZZ Top when he's been drinking, too. "She's got leeeeeegs, she knows how to use 'em..."

Post: #8

(05-29-2016 03:54 AM)Parox Wrote:  I wouldn't say I'm coming off as aggressive, at least, not towards anyone in particular. If anything I've become aloof to everything. I've become totally miscalibrated by hanging onto the advice for so long. Mentally, personally, I think it's helped with my fears but not my insecurities.

I will post my approaches in the approach thread. As for my fashion, it's very average, I've enlisted the help of some old girlfriends to take me shopping and 'make me look sexy'. Is this a bad idea? After all, it's women giving me fashion advice lol.

Legitimate Confidence or False Bravado? Well, like I say it's helped me mentally somewhat, especially the realisation that it doesn't mean much to get rejected as much as I thought, at the same time I started out with the 'Fake it til you make it' mentality so it's a long history of False Bravado that's built my character over time. Of course, this is now a problem.

I've definitely gotten lost with calibration in terms of outcome independence, like you say, I just come off as weird. I took the advice years ago to hang with guys who are naturally good with women. I followed bad boys around and have definitely picked up some abusive tendencies on a social level. This is through miscalibration though.

So what's the remedy? "If you keep doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting what you've always gotten" springs to mind. I'm sure calibration skills are something I need to put more effort into, from your replies that's one thing.

One thing that's not too deeply covered is the bridge between just cold approach and utilization of inner game. Remember that ANYONE can approach. ANYONE. What I'm saying is that once you conquer the fear and "just do it," you can approach a woman and initiate an interaction. However, the length of the bridge between your approach and your true inner confidence is what makes success work. I have not even fully mastered it. It's the truth. That's where the difference between false bravado and legitimate confidence comes in like others noted.

Let me put it another way. Getting a basic proficiency in approaching is one thing. Utilizing your personality to maintain an interaction is another. We can help you adjust your basic approach mechanics once you post your approaches. It's cool to start there. However, in order for you to continue to see success, you have to absolutely believe in yourself and believe you have value.

I'll point out the way I have done it. I went from 10 years of high profile finance career directly into sales. People at work still ask me why I would give up the high income potential in order to start lower and build up in a relentless job where cold calling, prospecting, social selling and timely follow up are key. They think I'm an idiot for leaving a world of comfort to come into something unpredictable. Approaching is the same. Unpredictable. However, you have lots of control on so many things: they way you dress, your physical shape, your body language/smile, your time, your outlook and setting of goals, how much work you put into approaching and the number of approaches. The control is the reason I do my job; some of the components of control in my own job are the same as those I noted. Yet, there are things you don't have control over: A girl's reaction, the time of day, the city you're in, venue you're in, and culture. The more you try to control what you can and less you focus on the things you DON'T have control over, the better you will become.

Some action items you can follow: meet other forum members, work out, and dress well. There are more than enough threads on the forum regarding any of these topics. You are cutting yourself short if you don't use them and focus on just approaching. Let that bridge cross over into inner game, where your true success lies.

I can tell you're overly focused on just approaching and not as much on your "control" components. Look, you increase your value more by focusing on control and less on sleeping with women. The women come as a result, they should NOT be the focus. They should be the benefit RESULTING FROM something more important, YOUR VALUE AND STATUS and how you see yourself.

I look forward to reading more about your progress.

Post: #9

(05-29-2016 03:54 AM)Parox Wrote:  I've enlisted the help of some old girlfriends to take me shopping and 'make me look sexy'. Is this a bad idea?

Yes, for 2 reasons:

1: Girls don't really know what they want in a guy. They say they do but they don't.

2: You should not be hanging out with ex girlfriends at all, let alone taking advice from them.

Post: #10

(05-30-2016 03:27 AM)crudeloyalist Wrote:  

(05-29-2016 03:54 AM)Parox Wrote:  I've enlisted the help of some old girlfriends to take me shopping and 'make me look sexy'. Is this a bad idea?

Yes, for 2 reasons:

1: Girls don't really know what they want in a guy. They say they do but they don't.

2: You should not be hanging out with ex girlfriends at all, let alone taking advice from them.

Taking advice from women on relationships is sort of like asking the Devil for advice on how to avoid sin - they'll pretty much always steer you wrong.

Post: #11

Try different strategy after 100 approaches.

Cold approaching is the purest embodiment of masculinity, but its not the only way. Like Giovonny said, the best player is not the one with the best game. He's the one with the best strategy.

Social circle, day game, dance game, etc. Something is out there that's better suited for you. Nothing really beats cold approach though. A veteran might not do any cold approach because he has better way to get pussy, but he can still pull a CA at any time.

Post: #12

I've always used mostly Social Circle game, occasionally cold approach in clubs, never practiced daygame really.

Looks like my best option is to cold approach and post my approach reports on here. No idea how to go about this confidently to be honest. I already know I suck so adding more rejection on top is gonna be really testing.

Post: #13

^Rejections are a part of life. It would be amateur to expect that you would get success without rejections.

You need rejections. Without them, you will not learn. Basically, you need to embrace them as experiences that are going to teach you something.

There are two choices you have when getting rejected. Feel bad about it and sulk OR Feel bad about it and analyze it to see what went wrong. It seems like you're doing more of the former and less of the latter. With the latter you actually progress forward but only if you mentally detach your ego during your analysis. In the meantime, work on your fashion and fitness. The former, I can definitely help with. There are many threads here on fashion, including an entire thread on denim/jeans. Not to mention, several guys here would be happy to help you with lifting and fitness.

Also Dalaran1991 knows what he's talking about. Don't feel like you have to cold approach because it's the most ballsy thing to do. There are other ways through which you can give yourself a boost (eg online, social). In your case, it will ease the pain a bit. I know how painful it can be in the beginning and you need a break.

Post: #14

My replies are in brackets:--

(05-30-2016 07:43 PM)Cobra Wrote:  ^Rejections are a part of life. It would be amateur to expect that you would get success without rejections.

You need rejections. Without them, you will not learn. Basically, you need to embrace them as experiences that are going to teach you something.

(I think this is where I've been going wrong - I was rejected millions of times, never learned a thing only beginning to use hindsight. Thanks)

There are two choices you have when getting rejected. Feel bad about it and sulk OR Feel bad about it and analyze it to see what went wrong. (I've been simply carrying on regardless and beginning to think I do more of the former.) It seems like you're doing more of the former and less of the latter. With the latter you actually progress forward but only if you mentally detach your ego during your analysis. (Wow this hits a nail on the head thanks!!) In the meantime, work on your fashion and fitness. (Yes I've been neglecting these unfortunately.) The former, I can definitely help with. There are many threads here on fashion, including an entire thread on denim/jeans. (Okay will check it out.) Not to mention, several guys here would be happy to help you with lifting and fitness. (Not interested in lifting in a gym, I admit I have stubborn belly fat.)

Also Dalaran1991 knows what he's talking about. Don't feel like you have to cold approach because it's the most ballsy thing to do. (Missed that, sorry Dalaran1991.) There are other ways through which you can give yourself a boost (eg online, social). In your case, it will ease the pain a bit. I know how painful it can be in the beginning and you need a break. (That's empathetic thank you for understanding and your advice on the matter.)

Post: #15

(05-28-2016 02:41 PM)Parox Wrote:  Hi, I've been interested in Game for a long time now. As Tyler would say "A Hardcase Newbie". One of my biggest problems and sticking points is not that I'm afraid of rejection, rather, I either embrace it and to be honest I'm fed up with it. Any advice is appreciated at this point. I'm thinking I may actually benefit from routines and structure instead of just butchering the whole interaction while not giving a fuck of the outcome. I think I don't care enough if that makes sense? What course of direction would you give to your best friend if they felt the same way I do?

I'd tell you to stop being interested in game and become interested in girls. From what wrote it seems like you're more focused on executing game in front of the girl instead of actually going for the girl herself. This is why you feel like you don't care enough, cause it's not you who does it, it's your pickup persona. You put on that game mask and become game man who talks to girls. That's the vibe I feel from your writing.

Don't take too literally what they preach about no outcome etc. I know their stuff inside out, it's just a mental trick for students to let loose and don't shit their pants. But in reality when you like a girl you automatically have outcome whether you like it or not. That's good. Where's outcome there is a plan. At least it should be. So the only thing you should have in mind is how to swoop that girl off her feet and capture her heart and take her for a ride towards horizon where you can be with her one on one.

Post: #16

(06-01-2016 06:02 PM)XXL Wrote:  

(05-28-2016 02:41 PM)Parox Wrote:  Hi, I've been interested in Game for a long time now. As Tyler would say "A Hardcase Newbie". One of my biggest problems and sticking points is not that I'm afraid of rejection, rather, I either embrace it and to be honest I'm fed up with it. Any advice is appreciated at this point. I'm thinking I may actually benefit from routines and structure instead of just butchering the whole interaction while not giving a fuck of the outcome. I think I don't care enough if that makes sense? What course of direction would you give to your best friend if they felt the same way I do?

I'd tell you to stop being interested in game and become interested in girls. From what wrote it seems like you're more focused on executing game in front of the girl instead of actually going for the girl herself. This is why you feel like you don't care enough, cause it's not you who does it, it's your pickup persona. You put on that game mask and become game man who talks to girls. That's the vibe I feel from your writing.

Don't take too literally what they preach about no outcome etc. I know their stuff inside out, it's just a mental trick for students to let loose and don't shit their pants. But in reality when you like a girl you automatically have outcome whether you like it or not. That's good. Where's outcome there is a plan. At least it should be. So the only thing you should have in mind is how to swoop that girl off her feet and capture her heart and take her for a ride towards horizon where you can be with her one on one.

Yes I admit I have this problem. Thank you so much.

Post: #17

(05-30-2016 03:27 AM)crudeloyalist Wrote:  2: You should not be hanging out with ex girlfriends at all, let alone taking advice from them.

I will disagree with this: Ex-girlfriends -- if they like you -- can be useful for social proof.
And social proof is dynamite. I was sitting at the bar with a lesbian couple I was chatting with. (One is megacute, and had been married to a guy.) I hugged them both when they left. At which point a random woman walking by demanded her hug in turn.

If the OP could meet these ex-gf's at a bar, where they would be honestly glad to see him, and if they would be visibly enjoying his company, then they would help him attract women.

Post: #18

Personally I feel like I take the asshole thing too far, Instead of knowing when to show some emotion I always stay an asshole, I mean I am a natural at being an uncaring asshole, that works at the beginning but when you start to get closer you gotta show a little emotion, my issue is I take the beta-alpha thing too far, even when I should be a little more caring I stay on the asshole mode for fear of coming across as beta, its not that serious, remember nothing wrong with showing some emotion and being nice from time to time, you can be the biggest asshole but once a while show a sensitive side, its all about balance, women are crazy but they still are human.

Im learning that being alpha is more about frame and keeping composure in any situation, its not about being an asshole or being nice, those "beta" guys are beta because they have no frame and let women walk all over them, you can be an asshole and still be a beta who gets no pussy while some alpha can be nice to all his women and gets the pussy, its all about the frame, you can be the asshole and come off as bitter while that alpha is "nice" he wont take no shit and lets the women know.

It takes time to learn game but once you go through different experiences with women it will start to click and becomd natural, just expect faliures and learn from them, take what you learned and move on to the next one, there are literally enough women in the world for you to fuck a new one every day until the day you die, why stay stuck on one?

Post: #19

I'm really not that bothered about getting back with exes, they're merely old friends these days, well the odd one or two.

I'm far from a natural asshole but became one over the last eight years. I'm also not stuck on one girl.

Without needing the approval of others I've become willing to get rejected and disregard all adversity which I think has given me a negative effect, socially.

I'm getting an intuition to practise my social skills for a while in a way that doesn't make me come off as 'try hard' or 'incongruent'. To just become more as XXL mentioned 'less gamey'. I'm not going to jump to the cold approach thing right away as Cobra pointed out some major things missing from my game, namely, fitness and fashion. I think I should work towards these first and also consider forgetting about game tactics and focus on game holistically for a while.

Are these sufficient for now?

Post: #20

You're at a new bar, there with some buddies from work/school.

You see a cute chick walk in with her girlfriends.

What do you want?
How do you get what you want?

If your answer starts with, I just walk over and introduce myself, you're not running game.

Clothes are the least of your worries.

All you need for game, you already have.

WIA

Post: #21

(06-02-2016 03:04 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  You're at a new bar, there with some buddies from work/school.

You see a cute chick walk in with her girlfriends.

What do you want?
How do you get what you want?

If your answer starts with, I just walk over and introduce myself, you're not running game.

Clothes are the least of your worries.

All you need for game, you already have.

WIA

This reads like click bait material but please do go on. I'm really puzzled by this reply and would like to get some insight if you're willing?