Post: #1

Following my earlier post, I recently finished reading the Koran. The following is my review/summary.

When I started reading it, my first thought is "this is a rant". After several pages in, I realized that's not what it is. It is a chant. It is highly repetitive and the majority of it's sentiment could be summed up with: "God is Great, the Disbelievers will be Punished". That is the central and primary theme of the entire book.

The book itself isn't too long, can probably be read in a few days if you can stomach the repetition. It has 114 chapters, but the chapters at the end are very short and look more like poems.

A minor role is taken up with stories (very scant, nothing like the Old or New Testament), and social rules (such as gender relations, hygiene, inheritance rules etc). I would roughly guess that the "God is Great & Disbelievers will be Punished" themed parts make up 60-70% of the book, stories about 15% and social rules abut 15%.

The manner in which God is great (merciful, gracious, all-knowing, all-seeing etc) is as varied as the manners in which the disbelievers will be punished (painful, disgraceful, terrible, severe, chopping off their fingertips, burning their skin and then replacing it so it can be burned again, etc).

The interesting part is what the nature of God and the disbeliever is. Islam is not about a different and separate god. It is about the same god referred to in the Old Testament / Torah (Jewish), and the New Testament / Gospel (Christian). It specifically refers back to both of these books, and characters and stories from them, and refers to itself as an "elaboration".

One difference is that it doesn't recognize Jesus as the son of god. It recognizes him as the penultimate messenger, with Muhammed being the ultimate. If my interpretation and understanding is correct, it gets around Jesus' references to himself in the New Testament as the son of god by seeing the New Testament as an imperfect report of Jesus' own unwritten revelations (which the Koran calls "The Gospel").

To the Koran, a believer is a monotheist. This it the primary message. A muslim is "someone who submits to the will of the monotheist God". It specifically refers to "the monotheist faith of Abraham" repeatedly. The primary examples of disbelievers used throughout the book are polytheists and idolators. "Allah" is nothing more than the word "God" in Arabic.

For this reason Jews and Christians are considered to be muslims in Islam, albeit imperfect due not accepting the Koran, which claims to be the next revelations of God following the Gospel. I don't recall an instance of it outright saying Jews or Christians will be punished (unlike the disbelievers who get lashed every page or so), but it has a few statements that indicate the Messenger (Muhammed) and the Koran should be followed, and that God will judge among all the religious groups (so you better follow the full body of Scripture unless you want some vague 'judgement' upon you).

As an aside, this nature of the Koran is important whenever you get some leftist comparing against bad things in the Bible in attempt to apologize for Islam. The point is mute: Islam inherits both existing holy books and supplements its own. The only question is whether or not that supplementary book makes monotheism more aggressive and zealous or less. Upon reading it you immediately know the answer is: more. It is basically an injection of steroids into monotheism.

Additionally, if you're ever caught in a muslim extremist situation, and you can't fake being muslim, you probably have better odds professing to be a Christian than anything else. Christians get almost no bad rep in the Koran, and whilst both Christians and Jews are considered monotheist "people of the Scripture", Jews get singled out and criticized several times. Definitely don't refer to yourself as an atheist, and don't reveal you're part of a culture with polytheism or idolatry (which would include anything from Japanese to Thais to Hindus).

There were some things I found quite amusing. The first was the quotations of what atheists and polytheists/idolators were saying at the time to refute Muhammed's new book. These are included basically because the "Koran was revealed over a period of time", i.e. Muhammed writing it piece by piece, so he had the opportunity to include responses to rebuttals he got. Quotes included things along the lines of "he made it all up", "you are following a mad poet", "this is written by a madman", "your god is all the gods? how strange" etc.

The other thing was a part where it said "if the Messenger invites you to dinner, don't hang around after the dinner to make conversation". I can just imagine Muhammed getting sick of people doing that after he invited them round for dinner, so he just slipped that into the next "revelation".

All in all I think the meaning of the word "Koran" is apt: "Recitation". The book is basically designed as a very long chant to whip the reader up into a monotheist fervor.

It's needless to say that this religion is not going to calm down. It is simply not designed to ever be calm. Anybody who thinks it is inherently peaceful needs to just read the damn thing. Read this book and then tell me it's calm and soothing and tolerant. It has one message it repeats loud and clear almost every page: "God is Great, and the disbelievers will receive a painful punishment".

Finally it's worth noting that this book is not the totality of Islam, it is just the core. Unlike Jesus, who never wrote down his revelations and only had second-hand recordings of his words, Muhammed both wrote down revelations and other people recorded his sayings. Islam takes the sayings of Muhammed (hadith) and his biography as secondary sources, considering Muhammed's life to be a perfect rendering of a Muslim life, and thus a full role-model by which to live.

I don't think I'm going to try reading the hadith and biography though. All the juicy bits are available online for anyone who wants to check it out.

Post: #2

Thanks a lot for the review. I tried reading the Koran but couldnt finish it. It was dreadful. At least the Bible has some pearls of wisdom. Any positive red pill insights from the Koran?

Post: #3

(08-25-2016 12:14 PM)Pride male Wrote:  Any positive red pill insights from the Koran?

Not that I recall, likely because that's not its purpose. It's clearly not designed to provide any wisdom, just to stoke monotheist fervor.

The real insight to be obtained in on a zoomed-out level. What is the nature of this thing? Even lauded figures like Hitchens or Dawkins can't seem to get past the "it's obviously nonsense", and their self-indulgent well-reasoned arguments. It doesn't matter. No amount of reasoning will stop them believing because the believing itself is an in-built brain function performing a group social purpose -- they'll kill you before they bend to reason. The land of Dawkins isn't overrunning the land of Muhammed, but the opposite. Religion has a biological root.

Post: #4

I would highly recommend Christophe Luxenberg's work on the origins of the quran. Spot on.

As an aside, St. John of Damascus (8th century) immediately saw it and called it out for what it was.

Post: #5

Phoenix I was in Muslim Sunday school as a kid, at the same time I went once or twice a week to a mothers friend we considered an Aunt - where she'd teach us how to read arabic and recite the Koran.

I was late in reciting the Koran so the kids in the readings were younger, but I had more of an understanding as to what we were doing.

In Sunday school they might give you some lessons, but you were doing recitals.

My Aunt would basically teach us to read Arabic and then recite the passages.


Not too long after I said fuck it, and never went to either again. I caught on quick that it was all about memorization and recital not about the actual teachings.

Post: #6

Having read the Qur'an (in English) in its entirety and also studied Islam extensively I think this is a great explanation. Good job boiling it down to the basic point and elements.

As I have said before Islam is not really a religion. It is a system of conquer of territory and acquisition of soldiers, with the instructions to turn the women into cows for reproduction of more soldiers.

Post: #7

I've dipped into the Koran a few times and repetition and rant like aspects of it was what jumped out at me too. It's written in a stream of consciousness style without much of an overflowing narrative unlike say the Torah/Bible. The closest I can compare the Koran to would be like the Psalms in the Old Testament but without the poetic flair. I can imagine someone reading the Psalms for literary pleasure, not so with the Koran.

Post: #8

(08-25-2016 01:27 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  Religion has a biological root.

The essence of our current struggle.

Post: #9

The Koran is a poor man's bible. Hoping Phoenis does the Talmud and the Bhagadvita next.

Post: #10

(08-26-2016 02:44 AM)Pride male Wrote:  The Koran is a poor man's bible. Hoping Phoenis does the Talmud and the Bhagadvita next.

Well the Talmud is 3225 pages long.
http://www.holybooks.com/babylonian-talm...plete-pdf/

Might be worth it though. The Jews seem pretty cunning and successful, so perhaps there's quite a few nuggets in there.

Post: #11

I've read Mohammed's biography (the Sira) and am currently reading through the Hadith. The Bill Warner versions.

The Sira is an interesting read. I agree with Bill Warner that it is a good introduction to Islam. Now that I am reading the Hadith, I recognize all the references to Mohammed's life and other historical events.

I think that Christians aren't featured as much in the writing as Jews are, simply because Mohammed encountered far fewer of them. Medina had three Jewish tribes, before Mohammed got rid of them all. No Christian groups are mentioned. Don't expect sympathy when you claim to be a Christian, though.

Post: #12

Interesting review Phoenix,

Having read both the Quran and Sira, I know why certain things are the way they are.

If you look at the historical context, Muhammad lived among polytheistic pagan idol worshippers. The written language wasn't as developed at that time so people preferred poems and oral stories.

Hence why the Quran is structured like a chant/recitation (to engage with the oral poetry nature of those people) and also repeating "God is Great, Disbelievers will be punished" theme because they were stubborn pagan idol worshipping people.

Nevertheless Muhammad was also surrounded by a small minority of Jews. They refused to follow him and allied with pagan idolaters in war against him. Hence why Jews are smeared more in the Quran than Christians.

Muhammad was a prophet from age 40 to his death at 63. He spent the first 13 years in peaceful proselytizing, than the last 10 years in guerilla warfare (jihad).

If you see those verses saying "slay the disbelievers (pagans)" then its refering to that last 10 year period. I don't think he or his movement would have survived if they did the 'turn the other cheek' approach; Muhammad himself survived numerous assassination attempts. There was no option but Jihad, which is why it is outlined in the Quran.

Nevertheless I found its description of hell and heaven very vivid. One verse that was interesting was on the day of judgment, all those bound to hell will be brought before its door; then Satan will get on the pulpit addressing the condemned saying "You should've believed in God than to follow me. You can't blame me on this day, you're responsible." Then he is violently thrown into the depths of hell.

Interesting read, but it may bore many of you.

Post: #13

(08-26-2016 12:53 PM)Bobb Johnson Wrote:  If you see those verses saying "slay the disbelievers (pagans)" then its refering to that last 10 year period. I don't think he or his movement would have survived if they did the 'turn the other cheek' approach; Muhammad himself survived numerous assassination attempts. There was no option but Jihad, which is why it is outlined in the Quran.

Nevertheless I found its description of hell and heaven very vivid. One verse that was interesting was on the day of judgment, all those bound to hell will be brought before its door; then Satan will get on the pulpit addressing the condemned saying "You should've believed in God than to follow me. You can't blame me on this day, you're responsible." Then he is violently thrown into the depths of hell.

Interesting read, but it may bore many of you.

The preferable option would be he had lost or never been born. What do you say to that, Bobb Johnson?

Post: #14

^Phoenix,

I don't really understand the question.


I mean of course he was born, there is no doubt Muhammad historically existed. No historian doubts his existence.

Post: #15

Stating some facts (nothing else)

Chapter 5 - verse 51 : "Believers! Don't take christians or Jews for allies; they are allies among themselves. And those among you who does take them for ally will become one of them. Allah do not guide the injusts"

Chapter 8 - verse 39 : "And fight them until no association subsists anymore and that religion is entirely devoted to Allah. Then, if they cease (they will be forgiven because) Allah does observe who they do"

Chapter 9 - verse 132 : "Believers! fight your infidels neighbours, let them find toughness in you. And know Allah is with the pious."

And way much more...

If you think my translation is bad or don't trust me or think you need to read the context (a sole sentence without context can easily be misinterpreted right?), I highly encourage you to check on google. In 5 min I found free pdf version of the Koran.

P.s. the exact verse seems not always to have the same number depending of the version, but a word search should help you find it.

Post: #16

Interesting. Taking a few sentences out of context is one thing, having a book full of it is something different.

I'll have to check some translations, in different languages. After all, I wanted to read the Quran one day anyway.

Post: #17

(08-26-2016 03:36 PM)James Bond Next level Wrote:  Stating some facts (nothing else)

Chapter 5 - verse 51 : "Believers! Don't take christians or Jews for allies; they are allies among themselves. And those among you who does take them for ally will become one of them. Allah do not guide the injusts"

Chapter 8 - verse 39 : "And fight them until no association subsists anymore and that religion is entirely devoted to Allah. Then, if they cease (they will be forgiven because) Allah does observe who they do"

Chapter 9 - verse 132 : "Believers! fight your infidels neighbours, let them find toughness in you. And know Allah is with the pious."

That first one I lumped into the vague "jews and christians are imperfect and will be judged" sentiment that gets a few mentions. How these types of verses are to be interpreted, alongside the "people of the book" verses, is probably in the hadith.

The other 2 refer to non-monotheists, as does most of the book.

Post: #18

I did read the Koran a few years back. It don't ofer anything spirtual when you are on the quest for it. Its more a indoctirnation that work with punishment and fear. All that don't believe will die or suffer, all that don't follow the rules will punished and suffer. All those that rise questions rise anger and will face a punishment. There is a reason why Hitler did like the Koran and Islam so much, he seen it as an perfect ideolegy for the sacrifing warrior spirit.

There is no wisdom to gain when you read the book, the muslim guy where I got the book from could not believe that I said, it don't inspire me. Because I never feel lost and Islam for sure create a very strong and unique we vs them mentality. Everyone what question the leaders is a heretic. Islam push a way stronger identification then any other group system because it don't end in this life. Islam acutal hates the real life like all monotheis religions and create the illusion of the life after dead. Unfurtunatly the entry is not earn so much by be a good human, more by stict exact to the rules. Muslims even fear more the punishment of Allah. Islam is more like the abusive dad that beats his kids for everything. They will accept the fear and later stick in line without control from outside. So Koran and Islam don't offer wisdom or how to be a better human, they offer a we vs them ideolegy that support kill everyone that disagree with the ideolegy.

Post: #19

The Koran is a rule book for how a muslim behaves given the circumstances.

When there are few of them, they are "peaceful" and resort to a form of verbal and social subterfuge, claiming to be victims, etc.

When there are many of them, they do the aggressive, physical form of jihad in the form of bombings, mass rapes, public decapitations, and general humiliation of the kaffir (non muslims).

Don't pretend that Muhammed just "went violent" in the last ten years of his life. That was the plan all along, he just needed an army first.

Hilariously, the people that came to his aid when his group of peaceful muslims were "persecuted" by the pagans at Mecca were also the same groups that the muslims completely wiped out from the Holy Land. They were the Jews and the Christians.

Post: #20

^Hannibal, you make a very good point.

Just a minor historical correction; when Meccan pagans were persecuting Muhammad and his followers they were given protection by the Christian King of Ethiopia and by the pagans of Medina, not Jews.

Nevertheless its ironic that it was Christians and pagans who protected Muslims, I don't think Muslims would extend that courtesy the other way around.

Of course I'm not saying his violence was always justified, what I'm saying is that it was only a matter of time that warfare would ensue. Two stubborn forces like that, it was only a matter of time that they fought.