Post: #1

I've been learning boxing, been about 6 weeks since I starting training one on one with an instructor. So far, I've been keeping with the traditional boxing stance but the more I learn about the "philly shell" the more I feel it might be a natural fighting style for me, esp defensively. Is this something I should incorporate now or is it way to early in the game?

Post: #2

Listen to your trainer.

If you're getting one on one training, youre going to get infinitely better advice than from some people on an internet forum who a) have unknown credentials and b) know nothing about you.

I know its exciting in the early days, but dont get too far ahead of yourself. Learn and consistently drill the basics, and you'll find your own style soon enough.

Post: #3

Everyone thinks the Philly Shell is for them, until they come across a guy who knows what they are doing in the ring. It takes a very high level of natural aptitude for boxing to use the Philly Shell effectively. Even then, it's something to only use occasionally, and certainly not something to incorporate until you have a few hundred rounds of sparring under your belt.

A fundamental feature of the Philly Shell is that it invites your opponent to throw punches at you, particularly right hands. You do not want to be inviting people to do this until you know how to fight. You will not know how to fight until you have hundreds of rounds of practice. If you act cocky as a new boy (and the Philly Shell requires a certain braggadocio to pull off), someone will take it as an invitation to teach you some humility. You don't want to find yourself in this position. Everything you learn on the pads with your coach will go out of the window the first few times you spar. It's a lonely enough experience as it is - don't make it harder than it needs to be.

Post: #4

There are no shortcuts. Like king bast said, Put your time in and listen to your trainer. That's what he's there for.

Post: #5

I would see it as more of an experience, if it works for you, use it. If it doesn't, don't use it.

The best thing about boxing, you will get the opportunity to go full contact with head gear, therefore you will get a real good chance to try out the philly shell.

I don't use it, it didn't work for me.

Post: #6

I'd second all that H1N1 said, and also add that learning old school boxing like the Philly shell takes a coach that comes from a gym with a culture of using that style. Most coaches simply don't have a clue and don't really understand it.

Post: #7

Enjoy the process brother!
Someday you'll look back and be thankful you drilled the living hell out of the basics.

Also, I recommend you get some equipment to practice on at home.
My Muay Thai accuracy and speed skyrocketed when I started drilling the basics 7 days a week on a Wavemaster/BOB XL Mannequin.

I do a 15 to 30 minute session in the morning and another 15 to 30 minute session in the afternoon.
This equates to only about an extra 3.5 to 7 hours a week of drilling.
I know it doesn't seem like much but in the long-run this will cause dramatic improvements.

The Wavemaster/Bob XL Mannequin doesn't do much for increasing your Power or Body Hardening - however it is an extremely fun tool to use for accuracy and speed!

Post: #8

I say give it a shot next time you spar; not during a competition. In sparring you can afford to try new thing unlike on the street. I always tell people to do what works for you. If it doesn't work, go back to your fundamentals.

Post: #9

I'm going to second the consensus, but after you get about 50 rounds of sparring, try out the shoulder roll (philly shell).

If you honestly feel like it's for you (and you could be completely wrong this early in the game), then I say you should try it out and develop it. There are things you can do right now to do so.

The first is watching fighters who use it. That means watching old James Toney, Bernard Hopkins, and Mayweather videos. Don't just watch the the fights, though, watch the technique breakdowns too. Use the resources available to you.

When you spar with the traditional stance, try to nail the basics of defense. Like H1N1 said, these will be necessary to use the shoulder roll.

This means:

1) Keep your eyes open when punches are thrown at you;

2) Try to pick up on when your opponent telegraphs punches;

3) Don't stare at his hands--keep your eyes on your opponent's chest/neck area, and periodically scan his body for movements that might show he's winding up for something;

4) Use you periphery vision to catch subtle movements;

5) Practice dipping, weaving and stepping out of the way of punches--do not use simple blocking too much;

6) Practice using technique over speed and power; in other words, try not to let the excitement of the sparring make you overcommit to every single movement and try to knock the guy out with every punch and blast punches faster than him--focus on what you've been taught. The absolute first step is having the awareness to apply what you've been taught when you're in the shit;

7) Keep your chin down all the fucking time;

8) Learn not to lean off balance; when you use the shoulder roll, it's *very* important to have a solid but mobile base. When you're on the ropes, don't lean into the ropes. When you're blocking, don't lean away from the punches unless your base is under you. When moving, don't trip up on your own legs. This all goes down to basics, basics, basics.

Anyway, to answer your question, still too early in the game.

Post: #10

Try it!

Fuck it!

Especially, if you are wearing full head gear and your opponent is using heavy gloves!

Be prepared to lean back, bend at the knees and/or waist, drop you head, raise your shoulder, pivot in a circular motion, use your elbows as protection, step back, step sideways, step forward and clinch, punch, fake a punch, foot fake..

All of these things used in combination with the "Philly Roll" is what makes a complete defense.

Don't just stand there and take punishment (unless you are playing rope-a-dope)

Be aware and ready for opportunities to counter punch!

Understand that this is an advanced move and it's dangerous to expose yourself. Be careful!

I don't use it too often because I wasn't trained with it and I'm not often comfortable with it.

Sometimes, it just happens instinctively, if I see a punch coming towards my left shoulder, I just raise my shoulder and lower my head.. But, I never practice it or intentionally do it

--

I prefer to use:

(10-21-2016 10:53 AM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  dipping, weaving and stepping out of the way of punches

Great post CaptianChardonnay!

I know my thinking is a little weird on this but I just like to encourage fighters/athletes to try things that they are curious about..

Post: #11

What are your goals? Do you want to box in the amateurs? Do you want to box just for fun?

If you want to box for fun, then you can try the Philly Shell once in a while in sparring.

However, if you want to fight in the amateurs, focus on the standard stance. The scoring system favors the traditional stance over the other styles. I watched the Rio Olympics (male boxing and.... female beach volleyball), and not many boxers used the Philly Shell.

If you ever want to fight professionally, then I guess you can use it more, but you should still master the standard stance at first.

When I first started to box, I had better results by lowering my guard and relying on my reflexes to avoid the punches. My coach didn't let me develop that style and I'm glad he didn't. Mastering the standard stance saved my ass when I was in trouble in some fights. Also, now that I'm older, my reflexes are not as sharp, but my technical skills are still there and are quite useful.

Post: #12

thank you for your feedback everyone. a few more questions. I sparred for the first time last night and it was def a tough experience. i wore amateur headgear

My opponent:
- destroyed me with footwork
- pressured me with countless jabs; any recs for countering double and triple jabs?
- slipped nearly every punch I threw, it was hard to even make solid contact; those punches I did land barely affected him; a lot of times he would just back up and I wasted a cross
- in spite of covering my face and staying low he still found ways to make direct contact with me
- I attempted to slip a punch and got caught right in the nose with a jab
- made my right crosses ineffective with countless shoulder rolls

after getting counter punched off my jab and cross I started to hesitate A LOT to throw punches. I did not get to throw a single hook or uppercut? never more than a 2 or 3 combo of straight punches.

all in all pretty dissapointed with my first time sparring...

someone asked about my goals; I want to stay fit; get in great shape; and learn some useful self defense. I don't plan on competing but I want to be competent too

Post: #13

Hey it was your first time, you werent exactly going to set the world on fire.

The important thing is that you enjoyed it, learnt from it and have removed some of the sense of foreboding that comes with trying anything the first time.

Keep at it. Progress may seem to be slow, stop altogether or even go backwards at times, but other newbies will come and in a few months when you spar them for their first time, you'll see how far you've come.

Post: #14

I think it is important to recognise that your first 100 rounds or so are not going to be particularly enjoyable. You're likely to come off worse in all your sparring sessions for the first few months. 100 rounds does seem to be something of a magic figure where most fighters start to settle into the sport. Of course, everyone's different, but it often takes that long before a new fighter can relax enough not to be excessively restricted by fear. Up until then many will continue to freeze up and find themselves unable to apply their techniques.

For these first hundred rounds, I would forget about trying to land hooks and uppercuts. Of course, you'll land a few instinctively as you approach the 100 marker, and you may work some rounds where it's deliberately all infighting, but your focus should be on defense and your jab. Throw the odd right hand to keep your opponent honest, but you should be focusing on your jab, your feet, and keeping your hands high (higher than you may ultimately end up boxing with). Get used to being in the ring - it is much harder to do this if you're trying to be the finished article from the start.

With any luck, there'll be another beginner of about your weight in your gym, and the two of you can just let go and have a tear up occasionally. This will be great, you'll enjoy it, because neither of you will be good enough to really hurt each other, so you can get used to just fighting a bit more and realising you're not made of glass.

Your post is a classic 'I just had my first spar' post. The shock at realising that you're not the badass all men assume themselves to be, at realising that you can be hit more or less at will by someone you may not even regard as a particularly good boxer, is incredibly humbling, and a right of passage that ALL fighters go through - it sucks, but you're in good company. Personally, I was almost in tears a hundred times during my boxing career through sheer frustration and despair that someone could get the best of me like that. It should never sit comfortably with you to get rag-dolled, but there is a hell of a lesson to be taken from it.

There are loads of ways to avoid double and triple jabs, and indeed to turn them into countering opportunities, but it wouldn't mean anything to you at this point - you couldn't do it because you haven't clocked up the ring time. Keep going, keep reporting back, and then we can really help you along.

For now, my advice would be: focus on a nice high, tight guard. Throw your jab, singles and doubles only. Move your feet constantly. If you find yourself doing it, concentrate on not flinching, shutting your eyes, or raising a leg to try to protect yourself from an onslaught. Keep your eyes open and keep moving. Report back after 10 more rounds sparring, and we'll look at working in some very basic stuff that you can experience some success with.

Post: #15

(10-23-2016 11:45 PM)laq8ty Wrote:  I've been learning boxing, been about 6 weeks since I starting training one on one with an instructor. So far, I've been keeping with the traditional boxing stance but the more I learn about the "philly shell" the more I feel it might be a natural fighting style for me, esp defensively. Is this something I should incorporate now or is it way to early in the game?

I will give you somewhat different advice from the others.

In Chinese Martial Arts, after mastering the basics, they teach you your animal's style. Everyone has a different animal and it is based on your individual personality and style.

I used that same approach when teaching my MMA fighters over the years. Anyone agile, quick, elusive, and likes to strike their opponents opportunistically is a Panther. So instead of teaching them alot of clinch work and dirty boxing (an MMA strategy used by guys like Randy Couture), I would teach them Philly Shell or similar boxing and kickboxing techniques. I would also train them on how to avoid clinches and not get grabbed as much to enhance it. I would drill them nonstop on that. Chasing them around with a glove on a stick or me covered in protection gear and pads was common.

People fight better if they stick to their style.

That said, you cannot adopt a style if you do not have the physical talent/tools for it. I cannot watch you practice, watch your footwork, observe your demeanor in the ring. So I cannot say you are a candidate for the Philly Shell. Lots of folks have now grown up watching Mayweather fight alot, and may enjoy that style, but you must understand that he has world class speed. He can slip those punches because he has ridiculous hand-eye coordination. In fact it is on par with that of jet fighter pilots and professional level FPS shooter gamers . He could roll his shoulders that fast because he studies film on guys like a junkie. Like he was Peyton Manning or something.

Can you do that? Are you willing to study film on guys for hours to know what they will do first? Are you willing to run sprints, run air raids, do agility training for hours? Are you willing to run several miles for higher cardio because the Shell consumes more energy? Can you jump rope for 30 mins or be willing to get close to that?

Find the answer to those questions, and you may find your answer. Don't be surprised if you end up using more than one style. Someone like GGG can use a Shell in one minute and go back to aggressive counter punching in the next minute.

Post: #16

(10-27-2016 08:36 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

(10-23-2016 11:45 PM)laq8ty Wrote:  I've been learning boxing, been about 6 weeks since I starting training one on one with an instructor. So far, I've been keeping with the traditional boxing stance but the more I learn about the "philly shell" the more I feel it might be a natural fighting style for me, esp defensively. Is this something I should incorporate now or is it way to early in the game?

I will give you somewhat different advice from the others.

In Chinese Martial Arts, after mastering the basics, they teach you your animal's style. Everyone has a different animal and it is based on your individual personality and style.

I used that same approach when teaching my MMA fighters over the years. Anyone agile, quick, elusive, and likes to strike their opponents opportunistically is a Panther. So instead of teaching them alot of clinch work and dirty boxing (an MMA strategy used by guys like Randy Couture), I would teach them Philly Shell or similar boxing and kickboxing techniques. I would also train them on how to avoid clinches and not get grabbed as much to enhance it. I would drill them nonstop on that. Chasing them around with a glove on a stick or me covered in protection gear and pads was common.

People fight better if they stick to their style.

That said, you cannot adopt a style if you do not have the physical talent/tools for it. I cannot watch you practice, watch your footwork, observe your demeanor in the ring. So I cannot say you are a candidate for the Philly Shell. Lots of folks have now grown up watching Mayweather fight alot, and may enjoy that style, but you must understand that he has world class speed. He can slip those punches because he has ridiculous hand-eye coordination. In fact it is on par with that of jet fighter pilots and professional level FPS shooter gamers . He could roll his shoulders that fast because he studies film on guys like a junkie. Like he was Peyton Manning or something.

Can you do that? Are you willing to study film on guys for hours to know what they will do first? Are you willing to run sprints, run air raids, do agility training for hours? Are you willing to run several miles for higher cardio because the Shell consumes more energy? Can you jump rope for 30 mins or be willing to get close to that?

Find the answer to those questions, and you may find your answer. Don't be surprised if you end up using more than one style. Someone like GGG can use a Shell in one minute and go back to aggressive counter punching in the next minute.

Very interesting post, gave me a tremendous amount of "meat" to wrap my head around.
My favorite style to train is Muay Thai because I absolutely love using my knees, elbows, shins, feet and it is my natural instinct to Muay Thai Clinch somebody if in range.
My mother is of Thailand descent and my father is of Israeli descent.
When I box it is extremely hard to resist the temptation to use these other tools and I swear it feels like it is in my DNA to flying knee a fool in the face.
Your post makes me wonder if it actually is in my DNA?
Okay, I'm gonna put the peace pipe down now...

Post: #17

(10-27-2016 01:00 AM)laq8ty Wrote:  any recs for countering double and triple jabs?

USE YOUR LEGS!

Step away.

Step sideways.

Step back.

Move out of the way.

Get out of punching range.

Foot fake to disrupt his timing.

OR..

Counter punch.

You stood right in front of him!

Move!

Foot fake!! Feint! Feign!

Shoulder fake! Fake jab!

Be a moving target!

(10-27-2016 01:00 AM)laq8ty Wrote:  he would just back up

Learn from him.

Backing up is a great way to avoid getting hit.

(don't move straight back, its better to move back and then sideways)

(10-27-2016 01:00 AM)laq8ty Wrote:  pretty disappointing with my first time sparring

Disappointment is not an option for young fighters

If you are "disappointed", than, you need to improve your perspective.

You should be excited about the learning that took place.

You have not yet earned the right to be disappointed.

Eliminate that word from your training.

--

H1N1 + TravelerKai + ScrapperTL

It was a pleasure to read your comments..

I learned something from each of you!

Post: #18

(10-27-2016 11:52 AM)Giovonny Wrote:  

(10-27-2016 01:00 AM)laq8ty Wrote:  any recs for countering double and triple jabs?

USE YOUR LEGS!

Step away.

Step sideways.

Step back.

Move out of the way.

Get out of punching range.

Foot fake to disrupt his timing.

OR..

Counter punch.

You stood right in front of him!

Move!

Foot fake!! Feint! Feign!

Shoulder fake! Fake jab!

Be a moving target!

(10-27-2016 01:00 AM)laq8ty Wrote:  he would just back up

Learn from him.

Backing up is a great way to avoid getting hit.

(don't move straight back, its better to move back and then sideways)

(10-27-2016 01:00 AM)laq8ty Wrote:  pretty disappointing with my first time sparring

Disappointment is not an option for young fighters

If you are "disappointed", than, you need to improve your perspective.

You should be excited about the learning that took place.

You have not yet earned the right to be disappointed.

Eliminate that word from your training.

--

H1N1 + TravelerKai + ScrapperTL

It was a pleasure to read your comments..

I learned something from each of you!

Check out Michael Bisping, he is the most hated UFC Middleweight Champion of all time.
Hated or not - he is still the Champion!

His style is a lot like what Giovanny describes above.

Michael Bisping is constantly moving, back, left, right, diagonal angles, in and out.
He even takes a tremendous amount of damage sometimes, yes even the Champion gets hit - a lot!
In his career he has even been Knocked Out and made fun of for it in the media - but he is still the Champion.
Michael trains so hard and so often, that he has a reported resting heart rate of 35 beats per minute.

The lesson to take from this is to always believe in yourself and to be hungry to improve.
Sometimes you will lose, get made fun of and even get knocked out but never for a second take the bait, don't ever feel bad for yourself.

You are doing something most men only fantasize about in their minds.
It takes massive giant balls to step into the ring and spar or fight against someone else who is trained.
Take pride in that!

Michael Bisping, face of a Champion:

Post: #19

(10-27-2016 09:04 AM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  

(10-27-2016 08:36 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

(10-23-2016 11:45 PM)laq8ty Wrote:  I've been learning boxing, been about 6 weeks since I starting training one on one with an instructor. So far, I've been keeping with the traditional boxing stance but the more I learn about the "philly shell" the more I feel it might be a natural fighting style for me, esp defensively. Is this something I should incorporate now or is it way to early in the game?

I will give you somewhat different advice from the others.

In Chinese Martial Arts, after mastering the basics, they teach you your animal's style. Everyone has a different animal and it is based on your individual personality and style.

I used that same approach when teaching my MMA fighters over the years. Anyone agile, quick, elusive, and likes to strike their opponents opportunistically is a Panther. So instead of teaching them alot of clinch work and dirty boxing (an MMA strategy used by guys like Randy Couture), I would teach them Philly Shell or similar boxing and kickboxing techniques. I would also train them on how to avoid clinches and not get grabbed as much to enhance it. I would drill them nonstop on that. Chasing them around with a glove on a stick or me covered in protection gear and pads was common.

People fight better if they stick to their style.

That said, you cannot adopt a style if you do not have the physical talent/tools for it. I cannot watch you practice, watch your footwork, observe your demeanor in the ring. So I cannot say you are a candidate for the Philly Shell. Lots of folks have now grown up watching Mayweather fight alot, and may enjoy that style, but you must understand that he has world class speed. He can slip those punches because he has ridiculous hand-eye coordination. In fact it is on par with that of jet fighter pilots and professional level FPS shooter gamers . He could roll his shoulders that fast because he studies film on guys like a junkie. Like he was Peyton Manning or something.

Can you do that? Are you willing to study film on guys for hours to know what they will do first? Are you willing to run sprints, run air raids, do agility training for hours? Are you willing to run several miles for higher cardio because the Shell consumes more energy? Can you jump rope for 30 mins or be willing to get close to that?

Find the answer to those questions, and you may find your answer. Don't be surprised if you end up using more than one style. Someone like GGG can use a Shell in one minute and go back to aggressive counter punching in the next minute.

Very interesting post, gave me a tremendous amount of "meat" to wrap my head around.
My favorite style to train is Muay Thai because I absolutely love using my knees, elbows, shins, feet and it is my natural instinct to Muay Thai Clinch somebody if in range.
My mother is of Thailand descent and my father is of Israeli descent.
When I box it is extremely hard to resist the temptation to use these other tools and I swear it feels like it is in my DNA to flying knee a fool in the face.
Your post makes me wonder if it actually is in my DNA?
Okay, I'm gonna put the peace pipe down now...

We all have affinities for combat and fighting in general. Personality types (like MBTI Miggs Breyer Type Indicator), influence your fighting style. The Ancients understood that much of it to bother with all the various animal styles. As young men developed and turned their bodies into weapons, creativity took hold. Dragons, Tigers, Crane, Praying Mantis, Snake, Monkey, etc. all came out of various masters taking liberties with what they learned as a wushu base and expanded upon it.

Naturally guys tend to go with what feels right to them after a while. After I learned my first 2 martial arts, I spent alot of time checking out other stuff, because I felt like something was missing. Took a long time to figure it out but the animal style I used in gong fu, follows me into anything else I ever trained in.

When I was learning Filipino Martial Arts I would strike and grip the same as I did before. In BJJ, I fell in love with the snake grips, triangle leg chokes, wrist presses, guillotine, kimora, and anaconda chokes because it was highly similar to my style of gong fu as well as my Japanese JuJitsu background. I worked harder on those constantly, just to figure out how to make them work for me, because I loved those moves so much. Would I have been better early on by copying the standard flows everyone else white to blue belt were using? Sure! But eventually I got to black belt my own way and caught up big time surpassing many I started with.

There is nothing wrong with boxing if you love Muay Thai. Muay Thai fighters tend to have shitty boxing anyway, so you likely won't have that problem if you ever decide to cross train the two again. Just remember Muay Thai has a short lifespan because it's brutal, if you want to train it right, try to squeeze it in early in life. You can box into your 60s if you wanted to.

Post: #20

I love this movie. This song is one of the things that made me want to be a boxer.