Post: #1

My first thread about style here. I just noticed that something that is so rampant here in Thailand is people wearing fake, replica, or counterfeit shit: Louis Vuitton bags, Tag Heuer watches, etc. Heck, at every street corner you can see "tailors" selling replica stuff. You can get some replica Tag Heuer watches for under 600 baht (USD $18).

What pisses off my wife and I is when we buy the real stuff but see people running around wearing replicas and getting away with it. My wife is the one who talked her mom into throwing away her fake bag and buying a cheaper unbranded bag.

IMO, wearing replicas is a sin for many reasons:

1) It dilutes the value of the real items. Best example: Ray Ban sunglasses. Pretty much every pair is a fake. That severly damaged the image of the company.

2) It makes the wearer look like a chump. I wore a replica watch when I was 20 years old, and I remember that night where I was out with friends and someone at the table grabbed my wrist, looked at the watch, and called me out in front of everyone for wearing a fake. I was humiliated and realized that my reputation that night was damaged.

3) Following point #2, if you're in a business meeting with a potential customer / partner / boss, them noticing that you're wearing fake stuff can be grounds to "call you back when the time comes". If an employee is trying to dupe me with a fake watch, who knows what might be hidden in his resume.

4) It's a waste of money, as the replicas are rarely of good quality. Granted, there are some pretty good knock-offs from China that can last long, but in average, you will buy shit.

5) It's illegal. If you travel, a border agent can seize the goods. And refer to point #2 for what happens next. Some companies get away with it by selling "RQLEX" watches, but it's still counterfeit.

Let's put it this way: If you drive a BMW, you won't be overjoyed at seeing someone putting a BMW logo over the Honda logo at the front of his crappy car.

How do you guys deal with that, and what's your opinion on that?

Post: #2

People buy fakes without even knowing it. A lot of good fakes on Ebay and I assume Amazon as well.

Post: #3

That's true. Normally the price is a good indication of whether the product is fake or not. A $500 "genuine" Rolex isn't genuine. There are several indications that a product might be fake, but some occasionally manage to fool customers. It might be:
- Abnormal pricing
- Seller feedback & history
- Coming from China
- Abusing words, like "Rolex style watch", which means a watch "similar to Rolex"

That's why it's always recommended to buy from reputable dealers, or malls (in Thailand, Siam Paragon has real stuff). My post was mainly directed towards people who buy $50 Louis Vuitton bags and try to make it look genuine.

Post: #4

I have the opposite point of view. The prime to want to buy branded stuff is because it should be a signal of good quality, and also because the simple chance that you'd find good looking stuff is higher. But in a way, if the knock off passes in the looks department and doesn't for a while, why hate? I primarily buy clothes because of how they look, not the brand itself. If something looks nice but is a no-name/unknown brand I couldn't give 2 shits and neither should you.

Now with electronics, that shit is crimi al to counterfeight because you need it to actually function.

Post: #5

I think it's a good thing. How much do you think Rayban's costs per pair of glasses is? Their 'value' is a pretentious and fabricated illusion and little else. Even watches: the gold standard in time-keeping is a quartz-based digital watch, which costs $5, not some old fashioned spring loaded cogs contraption that costs $5000.

That's the whole reason they can be faked so easily. You can't fake a fighter jet or a mansion.

If it bothers you just buy stuff that can't be faked so easily. I.e stuff with real value due to rarity. Gemstones, high quality leather, vicuna, chiffon silk, gold, platinum etc.

Post: #6

(11-15-2016 03:31 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  I think it's a good thing. How much do you think Rayban's costs per pair of glasses is? Their 'value' is a pretentious and fabricated illusion and little else. Even watches: the gold standard in time-keeping is a quartz-based digital watch, which costs $5, not some old fashioned spring loaded cogs contraption that costs $5000.

That's the whole reason they can be faked so easily. You can't fake a fighter jet or a mansion.

If it bothers you just buy stuff that can't be faked so easily. I.e stuff with real value due to rarity. Gemstones, high quality leather, vicuna, chiffon silk, gold, platinum etc.

I read somewhere that one manufacturer in China produces about 65% of the world's sunglasses. I wish I could remember the source.

You really are paying premium simply for the label.

Post: #7

Never really bothered me. In fact, it makes me question why someone would pay $500 for a similar looking item that cost $50 especially if it's one of those "came from the same factory" types of sales and the items failed some QA or whatever.

This is personally why i'm happy to support local services and individuals that do bespoke items. Even then it's not perfect.

Post: #8

Absolutely agree with OP.

I am in the horology (watch) business and this bothers me to no end. In fact as soon as I have some free time I plan to drop a datasheet on buying a good watch.

And you're also right that anyone that matters will know its fake. I always see someone as a little less when I spot their replica Breitling.

There is a thirst, a sort of need for validation that rings out to me.

And I disagree with the whole notion of value vs cost.

Sure this may apply to some items, but it is the exception and not the rule. Rolex and Panerai spend millions of dollars on R&D developing their products out of the absolute best materials. Youtube the video of a look inside the Panerai factory and you will see what I mean.

I don't know much about Ray Ban, but Dita sunglasses, which go for ~800 use the absolute best quality and craftsmanship in their products.

They hire the top product designers who charge the most because they are the best.

Its uncool to piggyback of their accomplishments like that, but hey those are the breaks.

Furthermore, quality shows in really subtle ways sometimes. Like when you unfold a pair of Ray Bans they just feel nicer and more solid over the fakes, which just kind of flop open.

Post: #9

Personally, I'd rather buy a no name brand than a replica.

Post: #10

(11-15-2016 05:21 PM)Meister Eckhart Wrote:  

(11-15-2016 03:31 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  I think it's a good thing. How much do you think Rayban's costs per pair of glasses is? Their 'value' is a pretentious and fabricated illusion and little else. Even watches: the gold standard in time-keeping is a quartz-based digital watch, which costs $5, not some old fashioned spring loaded cogs contraption that costs $5000.

That's the whole reason they can be faked so easily. You can't fake a fighter jet or a mansion.

If it bothers you just buy stuff that can't be faked so easily. I.e stuff with real value due to rarity. Gemstones, high quality leather, vicuna, chiffon silk, gold, platinum etc.

I read somewhere that one manufacturer in China produces about 65% of the world's sunglasses. I wish I could remember the source.

You really are paying premium simply for the label.

Just because one manufacturer makes a wide range of products, it doesn't mean those products are all of equal or even close-to-equal quality. The manufacturer is building to specifications provided by their buyers. Run size, materials, finish quality, metal coating/plating/painting, tolerances, how difficult the design is to actually produce and assemble, lens coatings, etc all factor into the cost of the final product.

Cut every corner in the book except adhering to the basic design of the product you're copying, and yeah, you can crank out replicas for 10% of what the real thing costs. But they won't last nearly as long, they'll scratch easier, won't have crucial lens coatings, etc.

I won't hazard a guess how much the added value of a high-recognition status brand is, but I'm sure it's a lot less than most people would guess. There are exceptions of course: the whole fashion industry is an easy one to pick on and Apple is another.

Post: #11

(11-15-2016 05:21 PM)Meister Eckhart Wrote:  

(11-15-2016 03:31 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  I think it's a good thing. How much do you think Rayban's costs per pair of glasses is? Their 'value' is a pretentious and fabricated illusion and little else. Even watches: the gold standard in time-keeping is a quartz-based digital watch, which costs $5, not some old fashioned spring loaded cogs contraption that costs $5000.

That's the whole reason they can be faked so easily. You can't fake a fighter jet or a mansion.

If it bothers you just buy stuff that can't be faked so easily. I.e stuff with real value due to rarity. Gemstones, high quality leather, vicuna, chiffon silk, gold, platinum etc.

I read somewhere that one manufacturer in China produces about 65% of the world's sunglasses. I wish I could remember the source.

You really are paying premium simply for the label.

Its Luxotica from Italy, and I think its upwards of 85% of the global market in lenses.

Post: #12

(11-15-2016 02:05 PM)Rawmeo Wrote:  1) It dilutes the value of the real items. Best example: Ray Ban sunglasses. Pretty much every pair is a fake. That severly damaged the image of the company.

Why do you care about RyanBan's company value? They're a multinational corporation, they sure as shit don't care about you. It costs them circa $5 to produce sunglasses. The rest of the $200+ people pay goes to paying gay guys in marketing's salaries and/or padding the company profit margin.

Quote:2) It makes the wearer look like a chump. I wore a replica watch when I was 20 years old, and I remember that night where I was out with friends and someone at the table grabbed my wrist, looked at the watch, and called me out in front of everyone for wearing a fake. I was humiliated and realized that my reputation that night was damaged.

3) Following point #2, if you're in a business meeting with a potential customer / partner / boss, them noticing that you're wearing fake stuff can be grounds to "call you back when the time comes". If an employee is trying to dupe me with a fake watch, who knows what might be hidden in his resume.

If you buy replicas of a good standard this just doesn't happen. I've seen a replica watch fool professional jewelers who held it in their hand. Its only the dodgy street corner fakes that are easily told.

Quote:4) It's a waste of money, as the replicas are rarely of good quality. Granted, there are some pretty good knock-offs from China that can last long, but in average, you will buy shit.

Good replicas are often made in the same factories as the authentic name brand watches, bags etc. They're of either identical quality, or in the case of watches, sometimes higher mechanical quality.

Quote:5) It's illegal. If you travel, a border agent can seize the goods. And refer to point #2 for what happens next. Some companies get away with it by selling "RQLEX" watches, but it's still counterfeit.

I've gone on the guts of 500 flights over the last decade and have never had my wallet, shoes, watch, or any other item of personal attire inspected for their brand originality. Unless you're importing suitcases full of replicas this just isn't a real world concern. Border agents have enough trouble stopping drugs and illegal immigrants getting into countries, they sure as hell aren't taking people's sunglasses off of their heads for RayBan brand verification.

Quote:Let's put it this way: If you drive a BMW, you won't be overjoyed at seeing someone putting a BMW logo over the Honda logo at the front of his crappy car.

In this example, the more accurate state of affairs is if you pay $50,000 for a BMW, and someone else gets a mechanically identical car from the same factory for $5,000, then its really on you for making the bad life choice. Only a chump pays more for an item than what he needs to.

It sounds like you only have experience of $10 street corner fakes. High quality replicas are an entirely different ballgame. You get a similar level of quality, all the social status, and only spend about 5% of the money. A high quality $400 replica watch will be indistinguishable from a $10k watch without either disassembling it or using a microscope. A good fake D&G bag will cost less than 10% of its $2000 sticker price in Macys, and will fool every single one of your girlfriend's bitchiest friends.

Post: #13

^^You make some good points, however you are way off about replicas (the good ones you're speaking of) being produced alongside the originals.

Rolex, for instance, makes almost every component of their watches in house. The same can be said for Panerai. Those better replicas usually have commonplace lower tier swiss movements (which are still pretty nice) but of the cookie cutter variety. The exteriors and cases are almost always made in chinese factories. The Chinese have really upped their production quality in the last decade.

In the end, its up to the individual and a personal choice. I like your assessment of getting more value for your money while still getting all the social proof, thats a good approach and mentality to have towards economics.

But to me, this particular case, it feels like stuffing your pants with a sock to make your package bigger. Or making up a bunch of lay reports in the plus notch thread to get forum members to rep you. Maybe girls will think you have a big cock, maybe forum members will take you more seriously and you didn't have to put in the work to approach, get rejected, self improve etc. But as long as I myself know the truth, it wouldn't work for me.

As a designer I also value intellectual property and creative rights, so there is a personal factor to my sentiments as well.

Post: #14

(11-15-2016 07:24 PM)Laner Wrote:  Its Luxotica from Italy, and I think its upwards of 85% of the global market in lenses.

Yes! That's it! I wanted to say 85%, but since my memory was a bit fuzzy I rounded down to a more conservative number.

(11-15-2016 07:07 PM)weambulance Wrote:  

(11-15-2016 05:21 PM)Meister Eckhart Wrote:  

(11-15-2016 03:31 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  I think it's a good thing. How much do you think Rayban's costs per pair of glasses is? Their 'value' is a pretentious and fabricated illusion and little else. Even watches: the gold standard in time-keeping is a quartz-based digital watch, which costs $5, not some old fashioned spring loaded cogs contraption that costs $5000.

That's the whole reason they can be faked so easily. You can't fake a fighter jet or a mansion.

If it bothers you just buy stuff that can't be faked so easily. I.e stuff with real value due to rarity. Gemstones, high quality leather, vicuna, chiffon silk, gold, platinum etc.

I read somewhere that one manufacturer in China produces about 65% of the world's sunglasses. I wish I could remember the source.

You really are paying premium simply for the label.

Just because one manufacturer makes a wide range of products, it doesn't mean those products are all of equal or even close-to-equal quality. The manufacturer is building to specifications provided by their buyers. Run size, materials, finish quality, metal coating/plating/painting, tolerances, how difficult the design is to actually produce and assemble, lens coatings, etc all factor into the cost of the final product.

Cut every corner in the book except adhering to the basic design of the product you're copying, and yeah, you can crank out replicas for 10% of what the real thing costs. But they won't last nearly as long, they'll scratch easier, won't have crucial lens coatings, etc.

I won't hazard a guess how much the added value of a high-recognition status brand is, but I'm sure it's a lot less than most people would guess. There are exceptions of course: the whole fashion industry is an easy one to pick on and Apple is another.

I agree with you on this. Fashion is really a giant racket to begin with, because branding really doesn't necessarily mean drastic differences that you'd see in Electronics or other industries. Then again, the idea of fashion itself is for people to throw away disposable income. Fashion waxes and wanes, but style does not. Anybody can dress stylishly without having to be forced to constantly buy new clothes to follow fashion trends.

Post: #15

This comment is great!

(11-15-2016 03:31 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  That's the whole reason they can be faked so easily. You can't fake a fighter jet or a mansion.

I bought a good Chinese copy of a Montblanc watch from one of my good friends from RVF. He bought few pairs in China and it took a while to convince him he does not need that many. I am happy with a purchase.

I can afford a real watch and that is why no one will doubt mine is real.

Branding is a way of manipulation of masses. I am against being manipulated. I am against the system. So I am for unbranded stuff and would not mind occasional high quality fake.

Post: #16

I wear a replica watch. Before buying it, I browsed replica forums to learn more about it and truth be told, there are a lot of guys who actually own the real thing but choose to wear a very high, AAA quality replica instead because they're afraid to damage the real thing or have it stolen.

There are different grades of replicas however. Some of them are so good that you cannot really tell it's a replica unless you open the actual watch up to see the movement, these ones you won't find in those market places in SEA. To get those, you buy them online from the vendors who get them from the factory and they'll cost anywhere from $500 to a K sometimes more if they have real parts in them. You send them an email and the money, they send you a quality control picture, once you ok it, they ship it to you.

Little things like the size of the hands are how to tell them apart and can only be distinguished if you look at it up close under a loop. Other things is the way the font of the date wheel looks. While browsing those forums I often thought to myself that I like the font on the replica more than on the real thing...

There are also cases of the real thing having it's own imperfection that the guys on those forums brought up with pictures to prove their point, you think because you spend 20k you are getting something flawless but thats not always the case. In that subculture they also do something called frankeinsteining a watch which is when you start off with a fake and then slowly put real parts into it. This gets tricky because it can become very hard to tell a real one apart from a fake. Thats a hustle in itself and probably what shows up a lot on ebay and amazon.

Following what HonantheBarbarian said though, some timepieces are of such good quality that they cannot be accurately replicated and sold profitably. The factories that make these AAA grade replicas will usually buy the real thing and reverse engineer them. A good example of hard watches to replicate would be Richard Milles or Pateks.

So why do I wear a replica? After graduating, someone close to me gave me a real watch worth over 10k. Someone stole it from me and I never got it back. It was upsetting but I was determined to buy another one so I saved up money and then browsed around for something I liked. One day I know I'll buy the real thing so it's not a big deal to me and usually if someone asks I'll tell them its a replica anyways.

I'm only talking about replica watches though. I'm not into wearing replica clothes or anything else like that.

Post: #17

I don't think it's a big deal. It's often hard to tell and has no real effect on anything. Admittedly, I don't wear watches and other things since it doesn't really suit my vibe. I'd like to get a cool necklace at some point, but it wouldn't be gold or anything. I find gold to be quite gauche. Anyone can roll into a shop, point at a gold chain and throw it on, but a cool gemstone piece is more interesting.

Post: #18

i remember my brand whore phase basically from grade 8 to somewhere in the middle of university. I would mostly try and buy brand name clothing but I would never pay full price for it. This led me to either getting fake stuff or getting branded stuff on deep discounts but with bad sizes, fit and design. Looking back some of it was cringeworthy. For example, I bought 2 G star Raw shirts that were like 4 sizes too big just to have the brand lmao.

What I realize now is as long as it fits good and looks good brand is not important. Ill still try and buy some fake stuff when I go to Asian now and then, but I know I should stop. This year I picked up a fake Omega, and 2 armani watches and regret spending that money because it doesnt feel like I achieved this tier by myself.

Post: #19

Obsessing about jewelry to this degree is incredibly feminine, and wearing an expensive watch solely to impress people (and let's be honest, this encompasses the vast majority of expensive watch wearers) is the height of insecurity. It's a transparent attempt to status signal that usually backfires horribly or at best goes unnoticed, meaning people either don't recognize that the watch is incredibly expensive, recognize it and assume its fake, or take it as genuine and think you're a fool for wasting that amount of money on it. The only people genuinely impressed by an expensive watch are gold digging women (who would also be equally impressed with a fake one) and fellow expensive watch connoisseurs (excellent job, you paid $5k+ to impress other men).

If you really just want to impress people you're infinitely better off spending that money on tailored clothes that fit like a glove and some nice shoes. Really, no one gives a shit about expensive watches except for other expensive watch-wearing geeks.

Post: #20

(11-15-2016 08:01 PM)Meister Eckhart Wrote:  

(11-15-2016 07:24 PM)Laner Wrote:  Its Luxotica from Italy, and I think its upwards of 85% of the global market in lenses.

Yes! That's it! I wanted to say 85%, but since my memory was a bit fuzzy I rounded down to a more conservative number.

That company doesn't just make the glasses, they own the retailers too. Sunglass hut, lenscrafters, and even the optical departments and big stores.

And its not just ray ban and Oakley's. Its everything. Fancy Chanel glasses are theirs.

Regarding fake purses and whatnot:

There are girls out there that can spot the fakes without hesitation. One I know showed me some tips, and I picked a ton out a;; he airport one day.

Aloha!

Post: #21

^yeah my mother works with glasses and she tells me that industry is a huge hustle. Chanel doens't make the fancy chanel sunglasses. Factories do and pay chanel the rights to put their brand logo on the glasses (using the chanel brand as an example).

Post: #22

(11-15-2016 03:31 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  Even watches: the gold standard in time-keeping is a quartz-based digital watch, which costs $5, not some old fashioned spring loaded cogs contraption that costs $5000.

This is an an extremely simplistic and incorrect conclusion. The value of Omega Speedmaster Dark Side Of The Moon, while marked up of course, isn't a "pretentious and fabricated illusion". A fake is $20 because it has a $3 assembly line quartz movement inside and not a $1000+ mechanical movement that has been made by hand and had hours spent on it assembling and regulating it, by people who went to school for years for this one task, and are paid well. To say the difference in cost is an illusion is silly.

A quality mechanical watch is not and never was about millisecond perfect time keeping. That is not why they are appreciated, and that is not why they cost much more.

Does a $5 quartz watch keep time as well as, or better than, a $5000 mechanical watch? Yes- but that has zero to do with justified value, and the difference in cost is not an "illusion" simply because the $5 keeps accurate time. That's like saying your KIA with a replica body kit is accurate and reliable therefore the high cost of a hand made Ferrari is a "pretentious illusion". The difference in cost of production is very real, and difference in quality is, well, there is simply no comparison. Is everyone interested enough in the amazing mechanics behind these little machines to justify spending what they cost? No. But that doesn't mean price is unjustified.

Will speak more about this an upcoming datasheet.

To OP-

Buy quality products because you appreciate and enjoy better products. If you do that then it won't matter if every other dude has a fake Rolex.

Post: #23

(11-15-2016 10:49 PM)GlobalMan Wrote:  

(11-15-2016 03:31 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  Even watches: the gold standard in time-keeping is a quartz-based digital watch, which costs $5, not some old fashioned spring loaded cogs contraption that costs $5000.

This is an an extremely simplistic and incorrect conclusion. The value of Omega Speedmaster Dark Side Of The Moon, while marked up of course, isn't a "pretentious and fabricated illusion". A fake is $20 because it has a $3 assembly line quartz movement inside and not a $1000+ mechanical movement that has been made by hand and had hours spent on it assembling and regulating it, by people who went to school for years for this one task, and are paid well. To say the difference in cost is an illusion is silly.

A quality mechanical watch is not and never was about millisecond perfect time keeping. That is not why they are appreciated, and that is not why they cost much more.

Does a $5 quartz watch keep time as well as, or better than, a $5000 mechanical watch? Yes- but that has zero to do with justified value, and the difference in cost is not an "illusion" simply because the $5 keeps accurate time. That's like saying your KIA is accurate and reliable therefore the high cost of a hand made Ferrari is a "pretentious illusion". The difference in cost of production is very real, and difference in quality is, well, there is simply no comparison. Is everyone interested enough in the amazing mechanics behind these little machines to justify spending what they cost? No. But that doesn't mean price is unjustified.

Will speak more about this an upcoming datasheet.

To OP-

The point of owning quality and real watches and other products is for you to enjoy a superior and well made item. If you are just buying these items for others to see then just buy the fakes yourself, because you are missing the point of owning a well made product.

Buy quality products because you appreciate and enjoy better products. If you do that then it won't matter if every other dude has a fake Rolex.

Speaking of which, I saw this the other day and I admired the skill and engineering involved:





But this is beyond my ability to afford and admire as my own. At least right now.

Post: #24

OP, do you have an tips on buying fake watches the are indistinguishable from the real thing to anyone but an expert who literally opens the thing up and inspects in the internal elements?

Post: #25

Another reason the $5 quartz movement argument is laughable;

Mechanical watches are adjustable, meaning they can be calibrated, serviced and worked on over several decades. Ive worked on Bulovas from the 1930's with movements that were remarkably in tact after all that time.

The quartz, for all of its accuracy will simply die one day, and the only feasible option is to rip the movement out and replace it with another quartz movement. Its not an heirloom, its basically a disposable item.