Post: #1

For those of you who are not aware of my posting history I'm a sexually green guy in my early 30's so if that affects your judgement I'll be happy to disclose it first.

I've recently had an experience (detailed in another thread) where I 'pulled' a sober girl from a friendly, non-meat market environment with extreme ease, though there was no physicality or sexual tension as such. What made it significant for me was that she was an adult of normal intelligence and would presumably understand the dynamics of the interaction anyway unless she somehow saw me as completely asexual, genderless and impotent.
I've always secretly hated clubs and even when a woman has shown strong interest, I've almost never acted on it because of the atmosphere. I know that black & white thinking should be avoided and all sorts of girls end up in clubs but that's just the way I've been. There's always the expectation of instasex when leaving a club with someone and the objectification of both bodies and personalities which I do not like; often before names are exchanged.

Unfortunately it seems that there's still many obstacles between me and the happiness I could have with this girl, who might still be wrong for me and vice versa but getting her attention with the ease I did was quite empowering. While I don't like the club world, my attempt to play a middle ground between sleaze and complete androgynous friend zonehood was seemingly too much for her still and she backed out.

What I've been wondering is what concentration on game does for LTR types and their mental health. As of late I've started to feel a bit strange when singing karaoke in bars; I often do this to have something to do instead of holding my glass and because my range is not that great, I tend to stick to sappy slower type songs. After all the cynicism I've absorped from reading sites like this and primarily this one I've started to feel like a clown while spelling out those lyrics; take it to mean what you will.

I've also wondered if the necessity of learning game is overemphasized due to the hordes of guys who are happy to bed almost anything they rate as passing the boner test as they say and do not give a second thought to it afterwards. It's not that I'd turn down sex handed to me on a platter, which never happens to normal guys anyway, but if a guy's sex drive is great enough, I'd imagine that he would end up going for numerous girls despite minimal IOI's and validating himself, at times, even by making those IOI's up himself. I do not doubt that a significant percentage of girls can be bedded with extreme persistence and confidence even if they never noticed him at first.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this. I may be in a kind of transitional stage in my 'game' but a major part of me still wants to think that game is unnecessary or has significant drawbacks as far as mental health and positive outlook is concerned if a healthy LTR is desired; you'd just have to find your niche girl or a girl with whom you simply click from the get-go. Now admittedly finding such a girl is not an easy task and it would be seemingly easier just to game aggressively on girls that only have something going for them and who are lukewarm towards you. Thinking back on my last date with the girl I've known for a little while, I may have turned her off by pushing for more dominance in interaction and feeling her boundaries a bit too early despite some subtle indication that it might not be for the best but being inundated with advice telling me that every half-way decent girl is far too popular to take your time with and the teachings regarding men having to be the initiators et cetera made me feel like acting the way I did. Had I just listened to my kind beta side, I probably would have acted more compliant, sensitive and followed more instead of leading, which might have been equally bad.

The more I know and experience, which may not be much, the less I feel like I know.

Post: #2

(12-17-2016 02:35 PM)SegaSaturn1994 Wrote:  For those of you who are not aware of my posting history I'm a sexually green guy in my early 30's so if that affects your judgement I'll be happy to disclose it first.

I've recently had an experience (detailed in another thread) where I 'pulled' a sober girl from a friendly, non-meat market environment with extreme ease, though there was no physicality or sexual tension as such. What made it significant for me was that she was an adult of normal intelligence and would presumably understand the dynamics of the interaction anyway unless she somehow saw me as completely asexual, genderless and impotent.
I've always secretly hated clubs and even when a woman has shown strong interest, I've almost never acted on it because of the atmosphere. I know that black & white thinking should be avoided and all sorts of girls end up in clubs but that's just the way I've been. There's always the expectation of instasex when leaving a club with someone and the objectification of both bodies and personalities which I do not like; often before names are exchanged.

Unfortunately it seems that there's still many obstacles between me and the happiness I could have with this girl, who might still be wrong for me and vice versa but getting her attention with the ease I did was quite empowering. While I don't like the club world, my attempt to play a middle ground between sleaze and complete androgynous friend zonehood was seemingly too much for her still and she backed out.

What I've been wondering is what concentration on game does for LTR types and their mental health. As of late I've started to feel a bit strange when singing karaoke in bars; I often do this to have something to do instead of holding my glass and because my range is not that great, I tend to stick to sappy slower type songs. After all the cynicism I've absorped from reading sites like this and primarily this one I've started to feel like a clown while spelling out those lyrics; take it to mean what you will.

I've also wondered if the necessity of learning game is overemphasized due to the hordes of guys who are happy to bed almost anything they rate as passing the boner test as they say and do not give a second thought to it afterwards. It's not that I'd turn down sex handed to me on a platter, which never happens to normal guys anyway, but if a guy's sex drive is great enough, I'd imagine that he would end up going for numerous girls despite minimal IOI's and validating himself, at times, even by making those IOI's up himself. I do not doubt that a significant percentage of girls can be bedded with extreme persistence and confidence even if they never noticed him at first.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this. I may be in a kind of transitional stage in my 'game' but a major part of me still wants to think that game is unnecessary or has significant drawbacks as far as mental health and positive outlook is concerned if a healthy LTR is desired; you'd just have to find your niche girl or a girl with whom you simply click from the get-go. Now admittedly finding such a girl is not an easy task and it would be seemingly easier just to game aggressively on girls that only have something going for them and who are lukewarm towards you. Thinking back on my last date with the girl I've known for a little while, I may have turned her off by pushing for more dominance in interaction and feeling her boundaries a bit too early despite some subtle indication that it might not be for the best but being inundated with advice telling me that every half-way decent girl is far too popular to take your time with and the teachings regarding men having to be the initiators et cetera made me feel like acting the way I did. Had I just listened to my kind beta side, I probably would have acted more compliant, sensitive and followed more instead of leading, which might have been equally bad.

The more I know and experience, which may not be much, the less I feel like I know.

I don't even know where to start here.. Where is the smiley to slap yourself upside the head.

Number 1 - You think too much.

I have been running nightclub game since I have been interested in women.

There is a mixture of sluts, regular girls(who are in the club weekly) and normal girls.. If you are meeting girls in a club you have figure out which one she is. Normal girls are girls who don't party all that much or just came out to "fit in" with their friends. These are the girls that you want to target and every nightclub has them. After a while you can see that they just "dont belong" there.

I moved from the US to Germany with a girl I met where????? IN A NIGHTCLUB.

The girl i was with for 2.5 years before that.... IN A NIGHTCLUB

I am not saying nightclubs are the best places the world to meet women but there quality there to be had if you know what you are doing.

Number 2

Game will help you GET the girl and KEEP the girl.. If you think the game stops just because you got her you got another thing coming. There pickup game and LTR game. Yes shes hooked and you fucked her 1000 times but you gotta keep her and the relationship in control.

Number 3

"which never happens to normal guys"

I am just as normal as you are.... I lost my virginity to a 200 pound white girl in Pottstown, PA when I was 19 years old. Everyone started somewhere. I was ignored and thrown aside completely by black women and had to find my way from the dirt and muck.

Now I can close 7s consistently and have slept with many 8+ girls. Mind you im black and only dating white women. So don't sit here and whine about shit.

Post: #3

Sounds like you have a mild case of game denialism.

You are overthinking things here OP, but I also think a lot of the problem is that your experience with women has been less than desirable but you are at a bit stuck breaking out of your comfort zone and letting go of your programming.

If you absolutely hate nightclubs then don't go, but I don't think that is the problem. I think the problem is that you are too afraid to let loose and break out of your comfort zone. Are you looking for a wife and mother of your kids? If that is what you want then I agree you shouldn't be looking in nightclubs. Not to say you will never find such a female there, but your odds are very low.

You say you are a sexually green guy and it shows. This is okay and you should not fele ashamed about it, but you also need to be willing to break out of your comfort zone and re-shape your lifestyle and how you interact with others, especially women.

Post: #4

Whereas I usually complain privately about the quality of verse on the board, your writing manner sits firmly in the other sphere. For this, I will write in a manner your thoughts may be more accustomed to, and so, more accepting.

First, you need to believe that the enigma you are struggling with is not one the larger membership of the board struggles with; that being the purpose and use of game. This will require that you set your ego aside. You must force yourself to recognize that there is "something" to this, both in effectiveness and accessibility. The diversity of the membership, when compared to the extent of their results, should be proof enough that game is real.

Second, recognize that the skills that you have built in other areas of life, (one most likely being a man of critical thought) may not be of use in all aspects of life. And I will go further in suggesting that these habits are working against you. Note, I am speaking of the "how" of your thought patterns, not the "why". Your personality is your own business and it is not mine to judge.

Getting back on point, you need to let go of these thoughts, not overcome them. I was encouraged when you wrote that you sing karaoke, and I encourage you to continue at every opportunity. Let go and learn to relax. From this place, where you do not care about the opinions of anyone around you, will you begin to find the answers you are looking for. Those being, if I am correct, why to game, how to game well, and most importantly, how game fits into your self identity.

You are under no obligation to learn game for the purpose of one night stands. But I will warn you, if you come to the conclusion that "this game thing" is not for you, then you will have abandoned a skill set which could have been of great use to you. It is one thing to deny game out of hand. It is another to shy away from it because you judged it too difficult to master. And given the hundreds of members and thousands of threads, you may not use lack of resources as an excuse.

Finally, please listen to the message of the members above, stop overthinking everything. You must occasionally let yourself be led by your loins, not your mind. No one has the right to judge you, therefore that concern should never cross your mind.

Tornado

Post: #5

(12-17-2016 02:35 PM)SegaSaturn1994 Wrote:  I've also wondered if the necessity of learning game is overemphasized due to the hordes of guys who are happy to bed almost anything they rate as passing the boner test as they say and do not give a second thought to it afterwards.

It's not overemphasized. It's actually undermined and not take seriously enough in my opinion. If we define game as successfully dealing with women then game is crucial if you want to get what you want and stand out from those hordes of guy doing it.

(12-17-2016 02:35 PM)SegaSaturn1994 Wrote:  I may be in a kind of transitional stage in my 'game' but a major part of me still wants to think that game is unnecessary or has significant drawbacks as far as mental health and positive outlook is concerned if a healthy LTR is desired you'd just have to find your niche girl or a girl with whom you simply click from the get-go.

I think game itself and mental health are two separate things. I know it's common that players become jaded about women and tend to whine about "dark reality of game" but that is nothing but a weak character. It's one thing to understand reality and see it as it is and but turning into butthurt washed up is completely different thing related to mental health, personality and overall your character. It's not game's fault or women's fault that a guy who's seen too much has turned into this "dark triad fag" as I call them.

It takes some discipline and self control to dive deep into game and stay normal. Just like it's tough to go through other processes in life that uncover something that we didn't believe in or couldn't imagine before. So don't buy that shit that game will corrupt you and ruin your chances to form a relationship with a woman. It can destroy you if you allow it to.

Another thing.. how do "find your niche girl" and "simply click from the get-go" ?? Do you think you just appear somewhere and your energies magically connect and that's it? It might happen if you're lucky. I know stories like that. However if you want to stack the odds in your favor as much as you can and have more control over it then you actively go for it from scratch. Game is nothing more than taking your social/romantic/sexual life into your hands. So while most people sit and wait for something to happen, you try to make it happen. Then as a result you 'happen' to meet that cool girl and you 'happen' to click with her from the get go. It looks smooth and natural and but it's actually not. If it wasn't for your effort you would not meet that girl in the first place, or you would not know how to talk to her, or you would mess something up and she would not pick up your call later. With game you create opportunities.

(12-17-2016 02:35 PM)SegaSaturn1994 Wrote:  Now admittedly finding such a girl is not an easy task and it would be seemingly easier just to game aggressively on girls that only have something going for them and who are lukewarm towards you.

That's how you find her. By turning stones.

(12-17-2016 02:35 PM)SegaSaturn1994 Wrote:  Thinking back on my last date with the girl I've known for a little while, I may have turned her off by pushing for more dominance in interaction and feeling her boundaries a bit too early despite some subtle indication that it might not be for the best but being inundated with advice telling me that every half-way decent girl is far too popular to take your time with and the teachings regarding men having to be the initiators et cetera made me feel like acting the way I did. Had I just listened to my kind beta side, I probably would have acted more compliant, sensitive and followed more instead of leading, which might have been equally bad.

That was a matter of social intuition. You didn't adjust to the social cues she was giving you. You will get better at it the more you do it.

(12-17-2016 02:35 PM)SegaSaturn1994 Wrote:  The more I know and experience, which may not be much, the less I feel like I know.

GAME IS ART, NOT SCIENCE. There's no one pattern of method. If you try to break it down only logically you will get lost in it. There's a context to every situation. Which means that you will see some contradicting things work in certain situations for sure. There's only one right answer to every game question: It depends

Post: #6

Another option is to use the "light side" of game to achieve your goals, enrich your life and get and keep the girl of your dreams.

Avoid the "dark side" of game (lying, cheating, manipulating etc) that will damage you and goes against your values.

Be guided by your values in life, always.

Post: #7

Before you think about game you have to think about what you want. If you are looking for an LTR that will end in marriage you need a certain kind of game. You have to look in the right places, say the right things, become the right person. A lot of things that would be recognizable to your grandparents are involved.

Most of the dedicated RVF posters are of another school. They are not married, see that modern women are corrupt and unmarriagable, so they have developed PUA game, i.e. to maximize the number of women they get to sleep with. Sleeping with women, whether in an LTR or ONS deal, becomes the end goal, even if they happen to find a suitable wife on the way. Adultery is on the table as a natural means of living a sexually satisfied life.

I'm one of the former and can't quite understand the appeal of the latter lifestyle, whether from a personal, societal, or moral perspective. I had no girlfriend until I was 23, when I found a younger girl at work, hit it off with her, figured out what her opinion of having kids and being a housewife were, checked out her parents, and got married a few months later. The reason I got her was a combination of luck, timing in life, and my having recently been disillusioned, then driven to ROK after a hot girl I was beta-orbiting ended up in a relationship. Without having the right "I am who I am, take it or leave it, lady" attitude going in, I probably would've exuded a repugnant beta odor and driven off my wife, too.

Game can be very simple. It boils down to "what are you looking for and what is the girl looking for?" Remove the romantic nonsense and things become clear.

Post: #8

A beta will be cucked. Women don't respect betas. They despise them nice guys

Post: #9

In clubs, girls drink alcohol, which opens them up and makes them more friendly.

Many girls who go to clubs at night are just actively looking to ride cocks.

Therefore it is a good place to be in clubs when parties happen

Post: #10

I think the problem you have is two fold, one of which is your own issue and the second of which is based on the misinformation that people that talk about "game" spout. I'll start with the later.

Despite what you have probably read, game is not actually just about being alpha and trying to lead all the time. In fact, at certain points in SOME interactions with women it is appropriate to turn on some beta characteristics. One should not always be cocky or aloof just to seem cool, there are times where being affectionate and even "acting" shy or excited make you seem like you more genuinely like the girl. The whole idea of building comfort is actually based on that.

Let's take an example from someone that is beyond alpha, a pimp. In Iceberg Slim's (he was a famous pimp that wrote many books) Pimp, he tells a story about how he met a girl whose car broke down and how he essentially used sweet talk and charm, rather than being a stone cold player, to get the girl to empathize and care for him so he could eventually con her out of money. So if a stone cold pimp can use SOME beta qualities, then so can you.

The issue here, however, is that you don't know how to read situations with women, whatever the location may be (nightclub, bar, bookstore, on a date, etc.) to know when it's proper to turn on the alpha and when it is proper to turn it down a bit. That is the essence of game if you add the fact that as a man you must try with women over and over and accept the failures along with the successes.

Learning game means learning everything from the start to finish. The start will almost always be the same or similar. It is the finish which will be different. You can try a ONS, you can date, you can get in a relationship, you can get married, you can have kids, you can divorce, or you can grow old together. All of these things are different parts and milestones in a given relationship, and game is what will allow you to reach any of those given spots.

If you simply approach enough and have some sense of social clues you will eventually get laid or potentially have a relationship, but game is what will allow you to become more successful in terms of percentage of times you reach your desired goal.

So, by approaching more you will gradually learn game (unless you have social or mental issues), and by learning game you will gradually be more successful on your approaches. It is a self feeding loop.

-Stack

Post: #11

(12-18-2016 04:44 PM)torid Wrote:  Many girls who go to clubs at night are just actively looking to ride cocks.

Women don't need to do any one thing to get dick, especially in this day and age of Tinder etc. Yes, with alcohol and frequently drugs involved, women at clubs will hook up with guys, but a) on any given night, most guys that go to bars/clubs without a girl, will be going home without a girl, and b) just because a girl goes home with a guy from some club, doesn't mean she went there looking for dick (because again, she didn't need to put in the effort). The right guy probably happened to just come along for her.

There's a reason why so many here prefer daygame and online game - being successful at club game consistently only happens for a small fraction of guys. If it works for you, great.