Post: #1

I originally posted this in the forum lounge in the Everything else board but at the bequest of Rhyme or Reason I've agreed to make this into its own thread as indeed it is a discussion I am most interested in developing

Post: #2

Here is my original post:
--------------------------------------------------------
I've been wondering how many people associate or even advocate the use of drugs (legal and illegal) with states of creativity and inspiration.
I ,of course, am also implying how many times,I-as a person who does art-been asked what kinds of drugs I took to get inspired and how much.

Even in my worst phases,getting drunk or really high on something was a way for me to numb my mind and "forget the pain" rather than something that enabled me to either be better with my pencils or have a vision of something that I could later draw inspiration from (unless I wanted to write a character in a self destructing loop and then I couldnt do it because I was in that loop and unaware of it).
And if I could use my pencils it was in spite rather than because of my temprary intoxication and in general the results were quite shitty and my memory from being under the influence of a drug is always one of haziness and disorientation,not of creativeness.
What I consider my most twisted or greatest work whether we are talking simplicity,subtleness or complexity comes from a very sober state of mind.

Now, I've known many other artists(all disciplines not just visual arts) and am in al LTR with another artist so I've had a pretty large sample pool to draw some conclusions from.
My bird has stated a similar reflection to mine, and from my own memory dealing with other people in artistic fields I''d say I have a hard time remembering any artist that was excelling at their discipline while under the influence.

A case of a visual artist that claimed to have drawn inspiration from the use of drugs is actually one of my youth's favored illustrators: Jean Giraud (also known as "Moebius") who had used LSD for some time in his earlier years and often worked with Alejandro Jodorowsky, a magnificent bullshit mystic who is regarded as several octaves deeper than what he actually is (him I do believe to have taken drugs in order to compensate for an innate lack of talent).
Still while his alien landscapes are fascinating to look at, I sincerely doubt that his claim the inspiration came from hallucinatory trips was purely sincere.

Resuming,in my experience,it seems as if people who take drugs often use artistic inspiration as an excuse,and the heaviest users I remember also to be the less talented (or more impaired because of the perceptive alteration)


Anyhows, there's a lot of very able and artistically inclined members of this forum.What is your take on the subject?

Disclaimer:I am not trying to make a case against or in favor of the use of drugs or the morality of it but I am genuinely curious to know other POV's and/or a general consensus...

Post: #3

(01-08-2017 07:05 AM)Sancho Wrote:  ^ There isn't too much I can say about that topic, but I will say this.

My life changed, for the better, once I had my first weed cookie.
If I didn't, I'd still be stuck in a dead-end job wondering when I was going to do something with my life.

For example, I went to a karaoke bar today, and I actually managed to sing.
For the record, I am an extremely shy person.
To do something like that, would be like a muslim deciding to assimilate to a western country.
It's just not likely, it doesn't seem possible.
Yet I did it.

Now I am convinced that as long as your willing to do, you can succeed.
Even if the results aren't great, as long as you try, you will get better eventually.

Post: #4

(01-08-2017 09:12 AM)RedPillUK Wrote:  I'm a musician not an artist but I mostly agree with you. I don't think drugs gives you new artistic creativity or ideas.

I think it comes from being able to enjoy the music, the creation and to relax. The same way it helps to improve sex. It shuts off your conscious mind.

I can completely understand why musicians like Chet Baker eventually got the idea that they "needed" heroin to play, and that it made them play better for that reason. It's so addictive, feels good, really puts you in the moment, makes everything sounds better. Playing sober is just boring and uninspiring in comparison. It makes sense to be as inspired as possible for improvisational music like jazz.

Maybe rock musicians just take drugs because they're bored of playing the same songs, the same way night after night.

I'm not advocating taking drugs, especially ones that will kill you quickly like heroin, to play music. I'm just explaining why I think musicians can get into this state.

Post: #5

(01-08-2017 02:09 PM)Rhyme or Reason Wrote:  @el gostro and @redpilluk

Elgostro I think you should make that a thread, I have lots of input on the matter, as well as personal experience. I do think it deserves it's own thread and I wouldn't want to see it lost in the pages of the lounge.

Post: #6

Great topic El_Gostro and kudos to Rhyme or Reason for encouraging you to start a thread. I'll share my experience from having been a poster child for 'Just Say No' to mindful psychedelic user / shaman.

Quote:I've been wondering how many people associate or even advocate the use of drugs (legal and illegal) with states of creativity and inspiration.
I ,of course, am also implying how many times,I-as a person who does art-been asked what kinds of drugs I took to get inspired and how much
...
And if I could use my pencils it was in spite rather than because of my temprary intoxication and in general the results were quite shitty and my memory from being under the influence of a drug is always one of haziness and disorientation,not of creativeness.
What I consider my most twisted or greatest work whether we are talking simplicity,subtleness or complexity comes from a very sober state of mind.

I believe that we are all totally awake, real, creative, and natural the moment we are born. Babies are magical for this reason and why psychologically health people love being around children. They remind us of our own child-like innocence and openness. But most of us also experience trauma throughout our lives which might cover up our light or make us believe we've lost our creativity completely (which isn't ever true). The light doesn't go out, but we might not shine as brightly so like a window washer, it's important to find the tools that work best for us to clear away the junk that covers our brilliance without causing more trauma in the process! I wrote a post about uncovering your unique talents or genius.

/thread-59636.html

I find inspiration through a combination of 1) being in nature 2) infrequent & intentional psychedelic journeys 3) daily spiritual practice / physical exercise 4) having playful relationships and dialogue with other creative people. Sometimes it's women I date, sometimes talks online, sometimes stand-up comedy, sometimes taking a drive, or walking on the beach, or hiking in the mountains, or a wild night out in a group, or grocery story talks with people I'll never meet again. I used to be very shy and didn't engage people but I was missing out on a lot of potential connections and inspiration, plus sharing my gifts – just your presence, a smile or laugh can be a gift to someone and inspire them.

Psychedelics are a powerful healing medicine known for millenia to clear away internal blocks that would impede creativity and inspiration, plus are powerful aids to spiritual awakening. I think anyone who has used psychedelics can agree that you generally become more relaxed, open, and engaging with the world - at least the more natural psychedelics like mushrooms, cannabis. The more 'electric' or man-made substances (or natural ones taken in excess or in a dark mindset or chaotic setting) can be very disembodying and cause more trauma. Using psychedelics as a crutch (along with alcohol, drugs, sex, food, whatever) is too easy for artistic / creative / tortured souls and that misuse creates dependency and more misery. Some of us have to go down that path for a time (I have, several times) and hopefully recover so we don't get lost in the darkness. Having a good friend to provide support and keep you honest is priceless, which this forum can assist with. If someone feels they NEED any substance to be creative then perhaps therapy (and there are various ways) or spiritual practice are needed more.

I'd encourage an aspiring artist to read Rainer Maria Rilke's 'Letters to a Young Poet'. Probably the most beautiful and inspiring works from a man who was deeply committed to his art and wanted to inspire others to discover and live theirs.

http://www.carrothers.com/rilke_main.htm

I also really like David Deida's take in this 'Function Flow Glow' series. He makes clear the difference between therapeutic modalities to correct dysfunction, energetic . artistic practices to move energy and express our creativity, and spiritual practices to realize we are the Light (to awaken to our true nature). Sometimes someone who is very artistically talented might be rather dysfunctional (drinks, abuses women, chain smokes i.e. Salvador Dali). Their dysfunction may fuel their creativity, but can also lead to self-destruction. I like how Deida says that often it’s in temporary moments of extreme contrast that our creativity comes forth. So putting yourself in situations where you’re outside a normal routine can trigger … something! ‘Function Flow Glow’ also relates to creating dynamic relationships. I’ve been to a Deida workshop - pretty good stuff.





I find listening to Terence McKenna to be hallucinogenic, mostly in a positive way but listening too much can be a bad trip (IMO). If you listen to him describing his views of reality and experiences in altered states it'll feel like you're going there. I believe he is a bit too 'mother gaia' focused and anti-capitalism to relate to most of us but that goes into another realm and off-topic. I say this to acknowledge I feel McKenna has great value but is not infallible or omniscient.





McKenna's descriptions about the Eleusinian Mysteries are compelling viewing / listening. These Mysteries were part of an annual ceremony in the Greek world held for over 2,000 years. It focused around what is almost certainly an orally ingested psychedelic brew taken by everyone entering the Temple of Eleusis at the beginning of the ceremony. The distinctive elements of this rite are 1) it was open to everyone from slaves to senators, 2) you could attend but once in your lifetime, and 3) you could tell no one else about under pain of death. This ceremony would be like the acid trip to end all trips and seems to have energized rather than debilitated the Greek culture. There is widespread evidence of mindful psychedelic use and a strong likelihood that psychedelics were partly responsible for the inspiration of cave art going back tens of thousands of years. McKenna's 'stoned ape' theory is interesting. There is modern medical evidence that psilocybin (the primary psycho-active ingredient in magic mushrooms) grows brain cells, and small doses are responsible for improvements in visual acuity.





On the personal side, I have had a limited number of trips - about 5 come to mind of varying strength and inspirational power. I definitely respect the power of cannabis taken orally vs. smoked. I was goofy and loopy when smoking but had an ‘outer limits’ type trip when eating even 1/8th of a cookie in a solitary context. Very powerful, very disorienting, but you feel when you come back that you’ve passed through some ordeal. I could write stories or paint pictures of things I saw on several journeys and that’s certainly where art can come from.. but again, it’s not something to play with or take lightly (IMO/IME).

Dan Hardy, an MMA fighter, has a great talk on London Real about this. Really dig his approach!





Graham Hancock's 'Supernatural' is a great work that ties in psychedelic usage to tribal societies around the world. Shamans who take ayahuasca often create amazing paintings afterward. Alex Grey is famous for his art inspired by (I believe) ayahuasca. I found this TEDx talk by him which I haven’t yet seen:





I would advise anyone who plans to use psychedelics to first find someone they can trust as a guide and also start very slowly. It's always easier to add more than to take too much and wish you'd backed down. I have not done a 'heroic' dose of magic mushrooms yet (only 1/5 of a bag so far) but even that little amount opened me up, made me feel cleaner, more creative, more loving, and more calmly determined. Just like with lifting weights, you don't start off going for the moon. Also, consider if you need therapy first or in conjunction with psychedelics.

Post: #7

The late, great Bill Hicks has a great take on drugs and creativity too!

Post: #8

I don't take drugs. No, it's not because they are "bad for your health" or something like that. It's due to the simple fact that they fuck your motivation-reward system. If your dopamine system is fucked then how do you stay motivated in the long term? drug addiction?

I am at my creative peaks whenever I follow a strict routine with a laser like focus on my goal.

The worst phase in my life involved heroin, weed, alcohol and cigarettes.


I have heard people say that drugs make you creative. I don't think so. If that was the case then every scientist who made ground breaking researches have to be drug addicts of some sort.

Creativity is always a result of either inspiration or a desperation.

Post: #9

(01-08-2017 07:56 PM)tapthatass Wrote:  I don't take drugs. No, it's not because they are "bad for your health" or something like that. It's due to the simple fact that they fuck your motivation-reward system. If your dopamine system is fucked then how do you stay motivated in the long term? drug addiction?

I am at my creative peaks whenever I follow a strict routine with a laser like focus on my goal.

The worst phase in my life involved heroin, weed, alcohol and cigarettes.


I have heard people say that drugs make you creative. I don't think so. If that was the case then every scientist who made ground breaking researches have to be drug addicts of some sort.

Creativity is always a result of either inspiration or a desperation.

If you want a short discussion on the tension between order and chaos in human society back to Greek culture, try reading (just) the introduction to Bertrand Russell's Introduction to Western Philosophy.

For the moment, though, Stephen King admits to having had a massive drug problem until he finally got clean. He basically cannot remember writing one word of Cujo because he was high throughout, and he has profound regret that he can't.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #10

Let's just say I've made some out of this world great music under the influence of substances that for whatever reason I cannot draw out as easily sober. I'm a fan of logical progressions and I like to work on a logical premise...unless I'm indulging my vices.

Couple that with the ability of these substances to completely throw you out of the whack of the current reality, and you have an artistically productive version of myself. I do think that a lot of these thoughts are inside me, but don't come out unless I'm influenced. I've learned a lot about myself indulging myself though I wouldn't say it's for everyone.

Post: #11

I occasionally get some pot and smoke it. I'll get a gram or two, and it will last me a couple weeks, then I'll go many months without. I generally find when I am smoking, I'll have several sessions of having amazing ideas, both about my current work, and broad ideas like new products, or insights into the way things work in the world. I consider this to be exactly what the OP asked about.

I don't have this every time. It's usually the 2nd or 3rd time I smoke after buying some weed. The first time I get too stoned, and later on I'm more acclimated. If were a stoner all the time, I wouldn't expect it to persist, but I'm convinced the effect is real under the right circumstances.

Post: #12

Interesting point on Stephen King. I remember reading something from him 20+years ago, how the vision for the Gunfighter series came to him and it was so huge that it would take something like 30 years (memory may be off on the #) of full-time typing to get it all out. When I read that, I thought instantly, "This is NOT ordinary human creativity".

At the time, I assumed King was plugged into a hyperdimensional source of inspiration. If he was high (Gr. pharmakeia, or use of drugs in connection with the occult) at the time, it makes even more sense.

Post: #13

(01-09-2017 02:56 AM)Comte De St. Germain Wrote:  Let's just say I've made some out of this world great music under the influence of substances that for whatever reason I cannot draw out as easily sober. I'm a fan of logical progressions and I like to work on a logical premise...unless I'm indulging my vices.

Couple that with the ability of these substances to completely throw you out of the whack of the current reality, and you have an artistically productive version of myself. I do think that a lot of these thoughts are inside me, but don't come out unless I'm influenced. I've learned a lot about myself indulging myself though I wouldn't say it's for everyone.

Your post gives me a sense of any psychedelic substance or activity as a spark to ignite our in-born creativity. When we are focused on only thinking rationally we may not pay attention to the little hints or sparks of creativity. Especially since you create music, it's not a rational, linear, predictable process - at least most likely it isn't if it's going to inspire you to get caught up in the creation itself - to make art for its own sake, to be the vessel through which Beauty comes to life.

I dabble in piano but am not as well-versed in the theory (only took a year decades ago). I like to play Chopin, Debussy, Rachmaninoff, Beethoven (more of the slower stuff but also work on faster pieces). Their music is beautiful and I love hearing it along with attempting to play it (!), but I also love to just let go and improvise. I have only played with others a couple times but that is like a drug - passionate collaboration! For a long time I couldn't give myself permission to improvise ... 'you don't know what you're doing, you haven't studied it long enough, blah blah.' I won't say it'll pack a concert hall, but when I just let go (often later at night, sometimes after a walk, often when I'm inspired by a woman) I get caught up in that flow and it's ... ecstasy. I've taped myself doing it a few times and occasionally go back and watch, but also look forward to moments of that creation happening again.

I read this again ..

Quote:Couple that with the ability of these substances to completely throw you out of the whack of the current reality, and you have an artistically productive version of myself.

and feel you really hit the nail on the head. Or maybe it's also to see more and feel more into the current reality combined with our yearning, our pain or joy or frustration or expectation that lets our art flourish?!

Oh, I also wanted to add that there's a big difference between needing substances and benefiting from substances. Graham Hancock has talked about how he spent the better part of two decades (IIRC) stoned on marijuana every day he wrote. But, after a series of ayahuasca ceremonies, he felt 'Mother Aya' tell him to let go of cannabis, it was holding him back. He resisted the idea at first and tried to get high when he returned to England but got sick - he couldn't use it. And he was still able to be creative, and perhaps even more clear than he had been before. No one could tell him what he should or shouldn't do - he wasn't hurting anyone, I would say - but a 'master' shamanic medicine like ayahuasca showed him he didn't need the other substance anymore. So much of what we need to do is be gentle with our own process and have compassion for others. It doesn't mean allowing someone we love to be self-destructive but to be aware and tuned in as much as feels correct. I'm more of an interventionist, at least once to speak up if someone seems to be harming themselves and doesn't realize it.

Comte, I think you're in Texas, yes? I've been looking forward to meeting you for a while and am more motivated to come hang sometime in Spring. First beer's on me!

Post: #14

Interesting reflections and special thanks toTruth tiger for his dedicated participation.
If anything I need to further research. On ayahuasca,though I fear it has been co-opted into a tourist trap.

I think Tiger definitely hit a fiber in the unblocked imaginary potential of childhood.
My most creative moments usually come from when I am in a gleeful childish mood(which result in things such as "Cyborg sea-cucumbers in space!") or strangely enough when I exercise.
I tend to do endurance exercises Listening to music and I feel I achieve a sort of grounding bridhe of creativity,-a sort of gnosis if you will.
Trying to be more scientific I guess the endorphin release of the" runner's high " translates into heightened creativity for me...

Post: #15

Correlation does not imply causation

I've always been of the thought that the type of person that engages in impulsive behaviour like drugs, sex etc is also prone to grandiose creative ideas. This includes myself

Sure, acid trips can trigger inspiration... but I think any idea or epiphany I've came to on psychedelics I would have came to eventually without them

Post: #16

(01-09-2017 03:22 PM)Truth Tiger Wrote:  Comte, I think you're in Texas, yes? I've been looking forward to meeting you for a while and am more motivated to come hang sometime in Spring. First beer's on me!

Interesting stuff and I'd love too. Please come through if you have the time.

Post: #17

Thanks El_Gostro, very good discussion. I know movement is *crucial* for us to be really healthy - so your inspiration via exercise makes total sense! Music is an absolute catalyst and its own psychedelic substance. The nature of the universe isn't purely scientific - I have no problem attributing inspiration to intuition and Spirit, along with exercising my mind's capability for reason and logical thought. Magic comes from the dance of reason and intuition.

In fact, your comment about being most creative with exercise reminds me of something. I'm going to PM you...

This is a really great talk by Graham Hancock (I posted it in the 'drug policy' thread as well). He has a long history with cannabis and also has done shamanic journeys with ayahuasca that helped him become free of 'needing' cannabis and also to seeing and clearing inner blocks to creativity, love, truth. I don't agree with every conclusion he arrives at but he definitely brings up excellent points for consideration. In particular, the healing power of psychedelics as explored throughout many cultures (and Egyptian in particular with their incredible art). You might want to check out some videos by John Anthony West, 'Symbolist Egypt' in particular.

Post: #18

From Varg Vikernes' latest video on his out of body experiences. Relevant on the use of drugs for inspiration.

Quote:And before the delusional crowd comes to claim it's the same as taking psychedelics, I can tell right away that you don't get the same experience when taking psychedelics. The latter is just a weak and fake version of it, like watching a movie about something rather than experiencing it in real life.; Like jerking off compared to having a wife and get real children with her.

If you take psychedelics you burn up your "nerves" and ruin your brain, and in effect you ruin your ability to have such experiences. Your destroy your spirit by doing so.

To those who claim it's just a chemical released to protect your from the horrors of death, I can tell that many who experience an OBE see things and hear things they could not have seen or heard had that been the case. Just by help of some chemicals, your brain can't e. g. enable you to see what is happening in another room, or hear what doctors say in another room. What this means is that no: It's not your brain pulling your leg. You have actually left your body and have kept your mind and reasoning and even some senses when outside of your body. I can also add that nobody has ever seen or hear things they could not have seen in real life when on psychedelics. That is just a fake chemical experience.

Therefore I conclude like this: Such experiences might be evidence of us having a spirit.

I can also quote Alex Typhon's excellent comment:

"IMPORTANT MESSAGE ABOUT DMT HALUCINATION THEORY:

Whilst it is well known that DMT is the chemical in one's body that causes one to have hallucinations upon it's release, it is only proven to secrete in reaction to stimulants such as psychedelic drugs and some other circumstances, there is NO EVIDENCE to support the claim that the chemical is released upon undergoing physical distress or "near death experiences". This is a THEORY put forward by an atheist professor as a POSSIBILITY that was popularised by certain Atheist figureheads, despite no evidence existing to support the claim."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwuSEj5...zyqdf5bw04

Post: #19

As someone asked ThuleanPerspective which he didn't answer, I'll ask you: 'have you ever used drugs/psychedelics?' While not indicated in that video but he mentions in the comments that you quoted, he seems to dismiss the benefits of psychedelics which is very unfortunate, especially since it's unclear to what extent he's used them.

The experience of the near-death experience / out-of-body experience seems to be on the spectrum of a psychedelic experience, of expanding consciousness beyond the limits of the physical body although some changes in physical awareness / sensation are necessarily involved. They are not antithetical to each other so it's not necessary to make it so. Some people have to push their bodies to the limit to trigger some kind of transcendent experience. I would rather not put myself in physical danger, but use a process demonstrated for thousands of years in shamanic culture. I have had spontaneous 'psychedelic' experiences unrelated to drug use and also those related to drug use. Your personality structure, unresolved trauma, current mindset / emotional state, and physical environment are crucial to understanding the potential impact and maximizing the benefits of psychedelics. Bad trips and 'fried nerves / neurons' don't just happen, you can trace the origins of this like a forensic detective. This is why respecting the substance and having a guide is so vitally important.


Here is a great TED talk by a psilocybin researcher at John Hopkins:


and a good comment from an experienced psilocybin user:

Quote:i don´t get how some people aren´t curious as hell to try these wonderful things. as an experienced mushroom user IMO it will make everybody more peaceful and social, as long as they do it after good preparation, in a positive setting, with helpful tripsitters, starting at lower doses, just to make shure they don´t get scared by the effects. in people that come from a violent or in other way critical background, the so called "set" (mindset), (that will obviously influence the trip), per definition will not be optimal, but that is no contraindication. the experience is influenced by your input and in these cases may have a violent content. but most probably in a healing, not a reinforcing way. someone who frequently hurts other beeings IMO might understand and feel the pain he is giving, feeling the agony of his victims. IMO it really is the strong sense of connectedness that will stop nonsense violent actions and implement friendly behaviour. repeated, high dose sessions might be necessary. mushrooms often show me my own life from different eye-opening perspectives, letting me see my own "bad behaviour", insecurities, suppressed thoughts/situations etc. giving me the chance to revaluate and/or correct them. and, most importantly, during the peak of the trip they give me a feeling of love/acceptance for everything i put my mind on, part of wich i can take with me into everyday life. IMO shrooms, ayahuasca and similar DMT-like plant-drugs seem to be the only entities strong enough to heal the crazy science-religion psycopath self-destroying planet-polluting side of human society. so we all should start informing ourselves and others and afterwards start experimenting! alternatively or additionally we could all start daily hours-long qi-gong or traditional yoga practice, for similar or even better effects, at different costs. by the way, i deem these plant-drugs to be much more complete and healing in traditional form/preparation than the extracted or synthetic versions, that are like eating vitamin-pills instead of fruits. scientists don´t even have a clue how thousands of other "(inter-)active ingredients" might be in there, for real. infortunately in this magic-unfriendly society for many people there are difficulties when it comes to arrange good mushrooms, set, setting and tripsitter as recommended. but it´s possible and worth the try.

Post: #20

I have indeed, and I must agree with Varg: it is comparable to watching a movie of something rather than experiencing it yourself. The shamanic use of drugs is limited mostly to Asia and the Americas, by the way. Europe rarely had religious drugs (aside from alcohol), which might explain the power certain famous priests had over people (the Oracle of Delphi has been theorized to have been sitting over a vent which produced hallucinogenic gases.)

To be more detailed on my psychedelic experiences, I found them to be disappointing, even in moderate doses. They have absolutely nothing on the thrill that comes from something physically challenging and dangerous like diving deep at night to swim with barracudas, or climbing a mountain with a backpack ready to snap your legs. Pushing yourself in such a manner delivers a more satisfying form of psychedelic enlightenment than inducing it with drugs.

Post: #21

I appreciate your perspective, mate. In my experience there is room for both and they serve different yet complementary functions.

The Eleusinian Mysteries were a cohesive agent in Greek culture for two thousand years. Wish we had something like it instead of just frat parties, raves, Tough Mudder, and pub crawls. Oh and remember that Egyptian culture (Hyperborean/Celtic origins) was psychedelic (water lily) and very connected to questions and answers re: meaning of life.

"De gustibus non est disputandem!"

Post: #22

I appreciate your insights and first-hand experience, YoungBlade, and thanks for the rep. Very much enjoying our interaction!

I think we really are agreeing here and are sharing a preference for a particular experience which creates a common effect. You for intense physical exertion and me for intense psychedelic journey. Now, I really don't use psychedelics in any regular fashion - it's been a handful of times and I regard them as sacred substances. So I'm more playing devil's advocate for them right now...

Perhaps we can relate them to the difference of playing chess vs. playing tennis - both against an opponent. What's similar, and what's different? In chess, your physical fitness has little minimal bearing; you learn to think, you are shown if you have patterns that people can anticipate and counter, how open your thought process is, or how good your memory is for gambits but that makes things somewhat stale, you strategize and adapt to your opponent. All can be related to tennis, but now physical fitness becomes crucial. If you're not mentally agile, you would be a reactive tennis player, driven around by a more strategic opponent (I've felt that). If you're not physically fit, you're at a severe disadvantage and even if you're mentally agile you're still likely to lose. So in the case of tennis (or any physical activity) both a sound, flexible mind and sound, flexible body must be present to get the most out of that demanding physical experience.

It can be very possible that a psychedelic adventurer could have no physical stamina and poor health although they have deep insights into the nature of life and reality and that's a valid criticism of over-reliance on those substances without integrating with a physical lifestyle. This is why it's probably better to recommend someone who is depressed to go for a walk, get an exercise buddy, join a gym, get support in the physical world vs. to just take a psychedelic. BUT, everyone is different, and there is value in that psychedelic experience which can't be denied. It's also true that people who over-tax their bodies are very prone to chronic problems later in life (or more risk of death!) so it's important to not go overboard in either direction. I have found more openness and groundedness in people who love the outdoors and get their inspiration from being active and mobile - my favorite long-term girlfriend was an avid mountain climber, rock climber, loved driving fast, was very smart (licensed financial analyst), funny, and had used psychedelics mindfully prior to meeting me. I've also had shorter relationships where the girl was a hidden pothead and directionless. Again, better to be outside and moving than inside and stoned... if we're going to play two opposite ends (which are not the full spectrum).

In the realm of therapy and creativity, there is proven benefit to use of psychedelics as a means to open up or free one's potential, clear out blockages whether mental or emotional. Francis Crick admitted to seeing the DNA molecule during an LSD trip. He still had to do the work to prove the research, but the insights were prompted by that substance. Lots of research shows the benefits of psychedelics especially when administered in controlled settings.

I would be right there with you climbing a mountain (not so sure about barracudas but perhaps with a good guide I'd give that a go!). I think both solitary and shared experiences are their own powerful psychedelic - in the sense that they take us out of a linear thought process and put us directly into connection with LIFE, to being in Flow, in our Natural State. The best way to be Natural is to be ... in Nature!

I like to live without limits, to recognize where I come up against a wall - either mental, physical, emotional, sexual - and find a tool, method, or guide to help work through it. I think ultimately, the most free person doesn't depend upon any external substance to be joyful and free. As Adyashanti says, 'a true spiritual teaching, like a sincere spiritual teacher, is meant to burn itself up - so the questioner no longer has to rely on them.' Plants and physical challenges are both spiritual teachers - the residual sense of ecstatic exertion, surviving the ordeal, and the wisdom of how to re-engage with the world are a common bond they each share. And I'd say, the stories we can share with each other which continue the cycle of inspiration and wonder... I love watching surfing and climbing documentaries. I might not ever get to the top of Everest, but having done some light mountaineering PLUS having been on a psychedelic journey to the 'outer limits', my awareness feel able to expand and feel a little bit of that wonder of Mallory, Hillary, Norgay, Ed Viesturs, Reinhold Messner, Laird Hamilton - oh and I have to throw the insanely awesome Dan Osman in that mix! Not sure if/how much he toked, but that guy was something else... watching him free solo is a drug for me!

Post: #23

You should give diving with barracudas a go. Just don't wear anything shiny, one of the other divers almost lost a finger because he wouldn't take his wedding ring off.

Yes, I'm always of the philosophy a sound mind in a sound body, which I think starts with the body. Work out and eat right, then read books that expand your mental horizons, then take care of spiritual things (I myself am pagan, so it's a little different for others on the forum who follow more popular religions.)

I'm also a bit more averse to psychedelics because of some horror stories I've heard. My friend's high school guidance counselor was a woodstock hippie, one of the originals, and he had only used LSD while there and never touched it again, and he STILL has hallucinations, to this day. Ergo, while I still occasionally partake of various psychedelics in a social setting, I still take another path to inspiration.