Post: #1

This article caught my eye -

http://maccabeesociety.com/neo-pagan-mas...ing-metal/

Quote:There are currently 3 pro-male movements in competition with one another:

Christian Masculinity Movement. It stresses the role of matrimony, fatherhood, fitness, asceticism, and skills in authentic masculinity. This would include sites like Maccabee Society, Dalrock, and Art of Manliness.

Red Pill Movement. This movement claims to be an “amoral” application of the biological and psychological differences between male and females. It includes several groups that disagree with one another: pick up artists (PUA), “Men Going Their Own Way” (MGTOW), and general “red pill” guys. The Red Pill movement is essentially united in the conviction that men should become better (mentally and physically) through reading, study, and fitness; and (unlike the Christian analogue) affirm that marriage is a bad deal for men and should be avoided. The preferred approach is to “pump and dump” women. Their anthems are those of the rap world: “I don’t love them Hoes” and “99 Problems but a Bitch Ain’t One.” Example sites would include Chateau Heartiste and Return of Kings.

Neo-Pagan Masculinity Movement. This is a version of Red Pill that seeks to infuse spirituality and morality deeply into masculinity. Since Christianity is perceived as effeminate, social justice oriented, and passive; classic European paganism is endorsed as the true male spirituality. The themes of struggle, ritual, asceticism, tribalism, war, and brotherhood are endorsed. The Germanic/Nordic pantheon is endorsed. Odin and Thor play a prominent role. Northern European Metal (which sometimes takes the name of “Viking Metal”) is dripping in this Neo-Pagan version of masculinity. It seems to be a thriving movement and it deserves our analysis.

All the blah blah blah aside (and I don't necessarily agree with the characterization), a good question is posed:

Quote:The call of the Christian man is to live an extreme life of conversion toward Christ. This is heroic and powerful. It is a life of asceticism. It’s a lean life, not an obese life. The greatest challenge for the Christian man is to present Holy Matrimony as honorable in a culture that depicts it as dishonorable.

If we do not accomplish this, then men will turn to other options: MGTOW, Pump and Dump, Neo-Paganism. None of these will create a powerful, enduring civilization.

Leave a comment. How do we present Holy Matrimony as honorable?

I would be interested to hear how you fellas respond. My take is this...

The red pill is real. I've seen how the sausage is made, and it's ugly. Women going through dozens of different dicks in a month, even while "dating" a nice beta who drives them to the airport, pays the rent, and returns text messages. From both a legal and pragmatic standpoint, marriage is a horrible arrangement for most men.

On the other hand, I believe there is virtue when it comes to family, marriage, and religion. Part of the reason women act like they do is because we've moved too far away from a life of virtue, to a life of cheap pleasure.

How do you rectify your red pill knowledge with your ethos?

Post: #2

For me sex has no moral value, whether good or bad. It’s just not part of the field of ethics.

Live a good life and fuck whomever it may please.

Post: #3

Great question, will weigh in later, as I often think about this and am in the process of working it through (struggling with it?) ...

Post: #4

Historically, unregulated sex was considered a sin. That is because wanton sex was likely to give birth to illegitimate children, who would not benefit from the protection of a father in a world where resources were scarce. That was an unacceptable disorder.

Today things are completely different. With contraception, you can have sex with no consequence for society. There is absolutely no reason to consider sex as evil or sinful per se, or even subversive in any way. But religious authorities haven’t taken the trouble to amend their catechism. (Note that Jesus had friends who were prostitutes. St Paul was the prude)

Nowadays, in my view, having sex is a failing if it is likely to lead to unwanted pregnancies, spread of diseases, break up of families, manifest scandal, or the despair and corruption of maidens. But a good man can make sure that doesn’t happen.

Post: #5

(03-07-2018 04:48 PM)Montrose Wrote:  Nowadays, in my view, having sex is a failing if it is likely to lead to unwanted pregnancies*, spread of diseases*, break up of families*, manifest scandal*, or the despair and corruption of maidens*. But a good man can make sure that doesn’t happen.

Just treating this statement for now, you just rattled off why the modern world is in fact failing, pretty much 5/5.

Post: #6

The Art of Manliness is NOT Christian Masculinity Game. It's the opposite. While outwardly it teaches a lot of masculine skills, when it comes to the hierarchy in the family, they preach the same perverted equality model like secular feminists. Or rather, female supremacy, because there is no such thing as equality. Quintus breaking it down here: http://www.returnofkings.com/25876/art-o...yle-advice

Christian Masculine Game is as Red Pill as it gets. The man is the head of the family, the woman is his helper. Man: love your wife. Woman: submit to your husband. It is the foundation of a successful marriage.

Don't confuse the soyboy Churchian complete lack of Game with Christian Masculinity.

For some reasons, whenever the Red Pill is brought up here, all people can talk about is how many dicks a woman goes through, but plenty of your ancestors married virgins, had a great life as a family patriarch which led to your current existence in this world. Success is possible, and provable.

Post: #7

delete.

Post: #8

(03-08-2018 01:14 AM)StrikeBack Wrote:  The Art of Manliness is NOT Christian Masculinity Game. It's the opposite. While outwardly it teaches a lot of masculine skills, when it comes to the hierarchy in the family, they preach the same perverted equality model like secular feminists. Or rather, female supremacy, because there is no such thing as equality. Quintus breaking it down here: http://www.returnofkings.com/25876/art-o...yle-advice

Christian Masculine Game is as Red Pill as it gets. The man is the head of the family, the woman is his helper. Man: love your wife. Woman: submit to your husband. It is the foundation of a successful marriage.

Don't confuse the soyboy Churchian complete lack of Game with Christian Masculinity.

For some reasons, whenever the Red Pill is brought up here, all people can talk about is how many dicks a woman goes through, but plenty of your ancestors married virgins, had a great life as a family patriarch which led to your current existence in this world. Success is possible, and provable.

Agree. That site is like a parody of masculinity.

Post: #9

Religion and Game are one thing

Post: #10

(03-08-2018 01:14 AM)StrikeBack Wrote:  Quintus breaking it down here: http://www.returnofkings.com/25876/art-o...yle-advice

Agree with the sentiment, but I take issue with this line:
"No woman can offer a man advice on how to be a man. Period. Thou shalt not accept advice from a woman on manliness. "

Two of the most important things I learned about manliness came from my mom and then my wife.

First was when I was around 18 or 19. I was up late arguing with my mom, whining about how her attitude was holding me back and some other self-centered nonsense. After some back and forth, she said, "It's certainly true that I didn't raise you perfectly. But that doesn't change the fact that your problems are problems that only you can fix."

Second was a few years later when I was dating my wife and we were sitting on a park bench discussing our future. She asked, "Can you be a mountain I can rely on?"

In case it isn't obvious, the lessons here are: a) Never let oppression, perceived or otherwise, define your character, and b) if your character is so solid that a woman can think of you as a mountain, you're doing something right.

Of course, how women talk and how they often act is different. But to say that absolutely nothing they say can be taken as advice is arrogance.

Which brings me to the topic of religion: man is imperfect and ultimately puny in the face of the natural forces. Every single time a people becomes arrogant and loses faith in its gods and worships secular things, it destroys itself. The entire world is fighting a seemingly losing battle against these forces of destruction, since various forms of secularism and materialism have at once seized the means of production and usurped mainstream culture and thought. Many of us here have seen and discussed how this has affected the family and gender relations, for instance.

To put this in simple and frank religious terms: people are turning away from the divine and becoming evil. Insofar that relates to game, it doesn't matter how redpilled you are: if you do not walk a moral path, you are a sinner and will pay for your sins. Modern watered down feel-good religious groups talk about stuff like how God loves everyone or whatever, but to anyone who reads the holy texts calmly and carefully, the message is clear: unrepentant sinners and their enablers go to hell.

At the risk of stepping into Alex Jones territory, we can see these visions of hell in the various implementations of atheist Marxism active today. And this time, as the interlinked might of globalized technology once and for all subordinates the human to the machine, there will be no rebuilding of a moral and holy human society. Man will be physically rendered obsolete as has already his psychic existence.

It is possible that at some point, when the balance of power is obviously tipped in favor of a hostile technological system that no longer considers humans valuable by by stretch of the imagination, only then will people start realizing en masse what has happened. But it'll be too late, mankind will be locked in the cage and there'll be no way of escaping the technological apocalypse. Or maybe most of us will go out blissfully, with only a few naysayers recording the end of humanity in bouts of tortured insanity.

I think, for any seriously religious man who also knows about the redpill, that's a huge thing to think about. You are made in God's image, bearer of heavenly yang energy, whatever. If you know the principles of manliness, and the principles of game, what does that give you? Freedom, responsibility, or both?

Post: #11

Post: #12

This is hateful, irrelevant slander and does not belong in this discussion. Erase and rewind. )

Post: #13

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Post: #14

This cartoon is entertaining but it incorrectly assumes that faith is a cognitive phenomenon when it is, in fact, an effect of the will

Post: #15

I ask the moderator: does a message like this belong I this forum: “message to religious people: you are idiots and I hate you” ? What if someone posted a similar message to coloured people? This person wants to pick up a fight and no discussion about gaming girls.

Post: #16

Jesus are the summer fags already out of school and faux shit posting ?

Post: #17

The point of this thread wasn't to discuss whether religion is valid. If you don't think it is, I don't care. Obviously, this thread is not for you.

The question is -- how does a person who is religious rectify their red pill knowledge with traditional religious beliefs?

Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and most other religions recognize the institution of marriage, along with a moral value of monogamous relationships.

However, today we live in a world of Tinder and Bumble, where women can just fuck many men at will with no (immediate) consequences.

The upside of this is, as men, we can also do the same - fuck multiple random smuts with ease, commit to none of them, and spend the rest of our time focused on our hobbies.

The downside of this is that we're far less inclined to get married and start families. Personally, I think starting a family is a masculine trait, however, "sexual liberation" and feminism have made doing so incredibly difficult and downright dangerous. We've set aside traditional values, which are partly rooted in religion, for "everyone should just do whatever feels good."

Admittedly, I am guilty of wasting my time and money on simple, stupid pleasures. I've found few of them to be fulfilling in the long run. I would probably be happier with a virtuous woman who wants to start a family.

Post: #18

(03-07-2018 12:42 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  Great question, will weigh in later, as I often think about this and am in the process of working it through (struggling with it?) ...

As you put it, I rectify it with any other knowledge about "this world" that we have come to know or be aware --- some of which is beautiful and true and other parts which are ugly, disappointing or downright gruesome. Understanding something about the fallen nature or just the nature of this world is far different than being compelled by the same world to act in a certain way.

Hank's statement above gets to the heart of it:

Quote:
The upside of this is, as men, we can also do the same - fuck multiple random smuts with ease, commit to none of them, and spend the rest of our time focused on our hobbies.

The downside of this is that we're far less inclined to get married and start families. Personally, I think starting a family is a masculine trait, however, "sexual liberation" and feminism have made doing so incredibly difficult and downright dangerous. We've set aside traditional values, which are partly rooted in religion, for "everyone should just do whatever feels good."

Admittedly, I am guilty of wasting my time and money on simple, stupid pleasures. I've found few of them to be fulfilling in the long run. I would probably be happier with a virtuous woman who wants to start a family.

I find the greatest part to struggle with has been the fact that the gatekeepers (women) are so sub-par, and overall it's just damn difficult [in the West] to find exceptions, for numerous reasons, which most of us know and have discussed. This leads to what I call the acting out phase of having been trying to do your best as you age, but realizing how bad the actors and culture really is. The flip side as Hank says is that you sort of know going in that it's not going to be that fulfilling to "take advantage" of the situation.

The Samseau take on this has consistently been that raising children in the debased culture is a lose-lose, even if you are a shining example of father and mentor. I'm not sure if that's right, but it's an interesting point. The fact remains, however, that we have to do what we have to do with the time given to us.

This is why I'm embarking on checking other spots out around the world to try to make the odds higher of finding such a woman. Only to be dogged by the same global zeitgeist of technology, creeping slowly to the other areas less impacted by western or marxist insanity ...

Post: #19

I am not saying what you should do, or that you are a good or a bad person for how you choose to live your life.

But, from my understanding of Christianity (Which I am assuming is the trad religion you are referring to because you haven't stated it explicitly.) there are certain things that are sins, and you aren't supposed to do them. If you do them, you are supposed to apologize to God however your denomination does that, apologize to the person and rectify whatever you can, then repent and vow not to do this again. One of these things is premarital sex. (Samseau thinks different. This is stated for the record so we don't get derailed on the topic.)

So, the problem is that if you have red pill knowledge, you certainly haven't been living traditional religious beliefs.

You are expecting the girl to be better than you are.

The only way out of this, technically, is to start taking your religious beliefs seriously, ask God for forgiveness, repent, live a chaste life, look for a woman who shares your faith, get to know her. If she has sin in her past, make sure she has repented and asked for forgiveness, like you, and is committed to a godly life as well. Or find a young virtuous girl who you like and trust enough to be married to.

You should also pray your heart out and ask God for guidance, and don't marry anyone until you feel it is what God wants you to do. Getting counselling from your pastor could be good, and maybe even going with the woman you have chosen to some classes of Christian initiation at your church to reaffirm your faith together.

You better than anyone should know that legally, if you get married, your entire future is based on whether or not the woman decides to keep her sacred vows. There is no safety, no legal protection. Getting married is putting your life in a woman's hands.

Only God can protect you from a woman in this situation. And even God has no problems sometimes letting things go pear shaped to teach us lessons, so there is still no guarantee it will succeed.

I think the main dilemma of your post is that you want to have it both ways. You want her to be virtuous, and you want to live your life how you choose.

This is like having a contract where only one party has to abide by it.

How can that possibly be fair?

And you are not alone. This is one of the central contradictions of the manosphere. We want to have our fun but eventually wife up a virtuous woman.

There is no real way to have it both ways, no way to smooth over the contradiction in a fun and easy way.

If you have religious beliefs, you have to take the tenets of that faith seriously or what is the point?

It's got to be the center of your life, not a kind of celestial hedge fund that you kinda sorta keep in your back pocket.

Sorry, wish there was a more satisfying answer, but don't think there is.

In some ways, it is better not to think about this one at all.

There are a lot of great hobbies out there.

Post: #20

Quote:And you are not alone. This is one of the central contradictions of the manosphere. We want to have our fun but eventually wife up a virtuous woman.

Yes, this has always been an outstanding stumbling block for those of us who choose to question everything and see if it logically follows.

Just for the record, I personally don't want it both ways. I'd prefer it one way --- for others that isn't the case. Your points still stand, though.

Post: #21

That anti-religion cartoon was poignant for me as a former-non-believer and current possible-believer in that it exposes how disingenuous the atheist argument is.

Note that when I was a young teenager, I could have spouted off this cartoon word for word. God has to be a big powerful guy in the sky who we anthropomorphize and submit to. That strawman is so ridiculous that any further contemplation is cut off at the pass like the Stewart/Colbert argument-by-snark schtick. Religious hucksters may disgrace themselves, but to see their existence as a disproof of a higher power is silly.

As I grew older, the cog-dis of holding active non-belief and experiencing the world's utter beauty, chaos, and evil at the same time started to surface. Human language isn't powerful enough to express what God "is", so to attack the religious metaphors and pronouns is to miss the point entirely. I could suddenly reconcile how some of the wisest men I knew were religious and shrewd and logical to the core.

I don't practice a religion, but I have some faith now. The ability to suspend belief in my own [flawed] structural metaphors has enlightened me and helped me to connect better in music, love, friendship, business, self love, and growth. While never an "anti-theist", I can no longer consider myself an atheist. It took me years to realize, faith isn't something you can process through your "logic" or "media" or "fake news" filter.

I don't like to discuss my belief in God -- unlike younger me who felt a need to "prove" my disbelief -- but I've humbled myself and stopped trying to know everything. Another believer's verbal expressions of faith will never fully resonate with me, and never again will the world-unweary antitheist's diatribe. My own internal vision and expression of faith is all that's relevant to me.

-

Game-wise, religion ties into one's sense of love and acceptance for self and world, and in a non-wishy-washy way this correlates with the experience and wisdom of a Very Sexy Gentleman who needn't verbalize any of this underlying sausage, but can move through the world gracefully.

Don't explain, don't complain, don't spread or share or take the faith, just be it. How can you pedestalize a mere human anymore?

I'd say that's helpful.

--

Tying it back to the here and now -- when I was younger I'd passionately spit my dumb atheist screed, and it was neutral-at-best with like-minded girls (preaching to the choir, heh), and I'll probably never know how many girls I may have turned off by even feeling the need to bring it up.

Now I find myself wayyyy more annoyed by self-proclaimed atheist girls, but if anything it creates a subtle teasing opp, basically whenever things don't go their way you can slyly bring up something "karmaic" [~= God to them] about how the Universe is still on their ass for being so care-free. (Sounds abstract but this could lead to a few good "threaded" jokes over the first few hangs if you can stand'em that long.)

And when I encounter girls who go to church, or who don't but are religious, I see them as people and not "subjects whose minds to eventually change". And then I may get some "bad boy" points for being confidently about the outward ambiguity but internal strength of my own beliefs, delivered with a dose of humility and a "more to the story untold" or "you need to earn that kind of depth from me" vibe. I'm my own religion, after all. I'm not in the hobby of verbalizing or explaining it to anyone, no matter how cute.