Post: #1

Hi guys,

I live in the UK and am considering emigrating to the US, the reason being that I want to achieve financial independence as quick as possible (wages in the UK are pretty low in comparison to the US).

Ideally, I'd be looking for a performance-based role (most likely b2b sales). Thing is, I have no sales experience (I instead made a mistake and graduated into a different field that pays poorly) and it seems virtually impossible to get a job offer, considering the fact that I won't be able to attend any interviews in person and I'm 5-10 hours ahead of you guys.

I was therefore considering applying for a J-1 visa via getting a job at a summer camp. After the camp I'd have 30 days 'to travel', but I'd spend this time looking for any shitty job going so I can stay in the US permanently. After securing a job, I'd then look for a sales role.

Is the above actually possible from a legal standpoint? Obviously I could look for a sales role here, make a name for myself, and then transfer to the US via a company, but I imagine this would take a lot longer to achieve.

Post: #2

I looked into this years ago.

I'm pretty sure to be able to get a job there, you'd have to have a specialist skill that they require a reason for hiring internationally as opposed to from their own country.

Getting into a big company that has international presence, doing some time and then switching office is a good plan.

Post: #3

Why not go to Canada and work in the oil fields? I think a couple forum guys from the UK did that.

Post: #4

(03-26-2018 01:58 PM)Matt3B Wrote:  I looked into this years ago.

I'm pretty sure to be able to get a job there, you'd have to have a specialist skill that they require a reason for hiring internationally as opposed to from their own country.

Getting into a big company that has international presence, doing some time and then switching office is a good plan.

I don't think that's necessarily a legal requirement but I believe a company is somewhat involved in helping with paperwork or sponsoring you in some fashion so unless you have an in with someone at the company I doubt they would want any extra legwork unless you had something unique to bring to the table.

Post: #5

(03-26-2018 02:19 PM)renotime Wrote:  Why not go to Canada and work in the oil fields? I think a couple forum guys from the UK did that.

I was under the impression that the industry is in decline?

Post: #6

(03-26-2018 02:23 PM)jamaicabound Wrote:  

(03-26-2018 01:58 PM)Matt3B Wrote:  I looked into this years ago.

I'm pretty sure to be able to get a job there, you'd have to have a specialist skill that they require a reason for hiring internationally as opposed to from their own country.

Getting into a big company that has international presence, doing some time and then switching office is a good plan.

I don't think that's necessarily a legal requirement but I believe a company is somewhat involved in helping with paperwork or sponsoring you in some fashion so unless you have an in with someone at the company I doubt they would want any extra legwork unless you had something unique to bring to the table.

So it wouldn't be possible to get some mediocre job and stay permanently, and then look for a better job?

Post: #7

(03-26-2018 03:03 PM)RedKurrant Wrote:  

(03-26-2018 02:19 PM)renotime Wrote:  Why not go to Canada and work in the oil fields? I think a couple forum guys from the UK did that.

I was under the impression that the industry is in decline?

Things are picking back up in America, so I suspect Canada might be the same.

There's a hundred page thread on it, maybe you should read that.

Post: #8

You need to focus on finding a sales job in the UK; ideally with a multi-national for max future flexibility and go from there.

A few other points:

1. You have zero sales experience. How do you know if you like and/or are even good at sales? You need to test the waters with the least amount of risk FIRST before doing anything else. Even if you are good at, you might not like it as a way to make money long-term.

2. B2B sales (the jobs with 100k+ base pays with possible commissions in the 7 figures) is a highly competitive and highly volatile field to be in even if you're really good at sales, are a US citizen, and are working with a good company. You can be the best sales guy on the planet but you don't have any control if your company has bad marketing, bad management, bad product, bad timing etc, etc. Didn't make your number? You're looking for a new job. Made your number and the company sucks for other reasons? You're looking for a new job.

You don't want any visa/right to stay in the US drama tied to a sales job unless you've got a big war chest to live off of. Dangerous game otherwise and I doubt most companies would go for it. Maybe a superstar sales guy. Not the new guy. Not a chance.

3. There are plenty of companies that have both US and UK sales operations. Not all are large big corporations either; many have less than 500 employees and are very accessible if you hustle. The big companies are accessible as well but you might have to work through more layers to get to where you want to go.

4. In the UK, at least if you're unemployed you've got NHS and better unemployment compensation/social welfare to fall back on in between jobs. You have also have more extensive workers rights/vacation time.

US? You can be laid off with no notice for pretty much any reason and at best, you might get up to 6 months of unemployment if you qualify (you get nothing if fired for cause and/or you quit voluntarily) at a value $900-1600 a month (poverty wage in the US) while also having the state government up your ass to do bullshit interviews for low-wage garbage jobs. Have a medical issue? You're fucked unless you're got cash on hand to buy near-worthless hugely overpriced health insurance on the Obamacare exchanges (like 400-500/month premiums with 5k+ deductibles and so effectively, you have to spend at a minimum $5,500+ before any insurance monies kick in).

5 and final BIG point: If you're not willing to hustle to get an interview (meaning, prospecting hiring managers via cold calling, LinkedIn, e-mail, hand-written letters, walking into businesses, etc), then you're not a good fit for sales; especially high level sales jobs. The vast majority of people doing the actual hiring don't give a shit about your degree, your non-sales background (unless your experience has led to useful contacts/industry knowledge), or what you're doing now. Can you close a deal or not? That's ALL that matters.

Post: #9

You are really unlikely to get a job sponsorship. You need specialised, in-demand skills.

You could try and get a job at a big multinational and ask for a intracompany transfer to a US office.

Post: #10

Your best option is moving there, preferably to a second tier city, approach like crazy and get a woman to marry you, otherwise forget it, you probably won’t be able to stay there legally.

Post: #11

(03-26-2018 02:19 PM)renotime Wrote:  Why not go to Canada and work in the oil fields? I think a couple forum guys from the UK did that.

Canada is no substitute for the great USA.

Post: #12

I know of a couple very qualified guys (working in high-level tech/finance) who are having lots of trouble getting their visas renewed, to the point that one of the dudes actually had to move to his company's London office for at least 6 months while the company tries to sort out the issue.

Point being, the US is incredibly strict on immigration to the point where highly skilled, qualified professionals are already having a tough time getting approved.

Hence your odds are looking pretty grim.

Post: #13

To get a job in the states you'll need to get sponsored by a company via a H1B Visa
from what I recall it is very hard to obtain and there is a limit in the number of granted visas each year.

For the money your best bet is to get a job in Switzerland but you'll need to speak another language like german/french/russian

Post: #14

I mean it's cool and all but what's up with the US hype?

Post: #15

(03-26-2018 04:01 PM)The Black Knight Wrote:  You need to focus on finding a sales job in the UK; ideally with a multi-national for max future flexibility and go from there.

A few other points:

1. You have zero sales experience. How do you know if you like and/or are even good at sales? You need to test the waters with the least amount of risk FIRST before doing anything else. Even if you are good at, you might not like it as a way to make money long-term.

2. B2B sales (the jobs with 100k+ base pays with possible commissions in the 7 figures) is a highly competitive and highly volatile field to be in even if you're really good at sales, are a US citizen, and are working with a good company. You can be the best sales guy on the planet but you don't have any control if your company has bad marketing, bad management, bad product, bad timing etc, etc. Didn't make your number? You're looking for a new job. Made your number and the company sucks for other reasons? You're looking for a new job.

You don't want any visa/right to stay in the US drama tied to a sales job unless you've got a big war chest to live off of. Dangerous game otherwise and I doubt most companies would go for it. Maybe a superstar sales guy. Not the new guy. Not a chance.

3. There are plenty of companies that have both US and UK sales operations. Not all are large big corporations either; many have less than 500 employees and are very accessible if you hustle. The big companies are accessible as well but you might have to work through more layers to get to where you want to go.

4. In the UK, at least if you're unemployed you've got NHS and better unemployment compensation/social welfare to fall back on in between jobs. You have also have more extensive workers rights/vacation time.

US? You can be laid off with no notice for pretty much any reason and at best, you might get up to 6 months of unemployment if you qualify (you get nothing if fired for cause and/or you quit voluntarily) at a value $900-1600 a month (poverty wage in the US) while also having the state government up your ass to do bullshit interviews for low-wage garbage jobs. Have a medical issue? You're fucked unless you're got cash on hand to buy near-worthless hugely overpriced health insurance on the Obamacare exchanges (like 400-500/month premiums with 5k+ deductibles and so effectively, you have to spend at a minimum $5,500+ before any insurance monies kick in).

5 and final BIG point: If you're not willing to hustle to get an interview (meaning, prospecting hiring managers via cold calling, LinkedIn, e-mail, hand-written letters, walking into businesses, etc), then you're not a good fit for sales; especially high level sales jobs. The vast majority of people doing the actual hiring don't give a shit about your degree, your non-sales background (unless your experience has led to useful contacts/industry knowledge), or what you're doing now. Can you close a deal or not? That's ALL that matters.

Thanks for pointing all that out, pretty insightful. I never realised how easily you guys can be laid off!

To be honest I don't know if I'd be good at or like sales. Saying that, many people have said that I have very good interpersonal skills i.e. good at reading people, making conversation, listening more than speaking etc.

At the end of the day all I want to do is run my own product-based business, but I need to earn more money first. I'm therefore prepared to hustle for as long as it takes. Thing is, in my current job I don't get paid overtime (even though I am 'expected' to work outside my contracted hours) so it will take ages to save enough cash. Sales therefore seems to be the only viable option where I can earn a decent amount in a short period of time.

Post: #16

If sales is a means to an end, you won't be super-succesful in it.
The great salesmen I know, the 1% making a lot of money, are in it for 200%.
They also have the amazing ability to switch off common things like "a consciousness" or "empathy" if it stands between them and a sale.

You can still make some good money for starting your own business but I'd recommend bootstrapping above spending doing sales for a lot of time.

Anyway, The Black Knights post is spot on in my experience. Here's a way you could start in the UK:

1. Go do the shittiest sales job you can find. Door to door, on the street, even telemarketing. Do this for two weeks. Asked to be paired up by the best performing guy in the office. Try to learn from him the best you can.

2. Ask around where the previous most succesfull guys left to. There are always companies out there paying more for the same shitty work. Keep this in the back of your mind. This is your backup plan if you can't make step 3 happen in a short period of time. If you cannot level up then you just take baby steps by switching from one company to the next.

3. Start looking for simple sales jobs with high commissions and preferably no hourly wage. It doesn't matter what you are selling but preferably the process is simple and the commissions are high. Figure out what the best guys are earning. Don't listen to the recruiters, they are inflating the numbers. Talk to people on the floor instead. Do what you have to to get your foot in the door.

4. Find 2-3 guys who do very well. Become labrador, coffee boy or their sincere friend: whatever gets you their advice. Show you're eager to learn and do whatever they say. Emulate what they do, figure out what works for you and work until you earn.

5. In these type of businesses (that work on commission and have simple sale processes) there are usually guys who have plans how to get rich. Either by investments or by leveling up. Pay attention to their plans. Also pay attention to people who recently left the company because they made enough money. Don't fall for any interesting investment opportunities they may offer you, they are looking out for themselves and not for you.
If these guys are not in your current business and they are just trying to pay the bills you are not in a commission-based salesforce. You're in the wrong place. Keep looking for one.

There are some great threads on the forum about becoming a salesman. Don't miss out on those.

Post: #17

Quote: Didn't make your number? You're looking for a new job.

"Hit the bricks pal... coffee's for closers."

Post: #18

(03-27-2018 05:50 AM)asdfk Wrote:  If sales is a means to an end, you won't be super-succesful in it.
The great salesmen I know, the 1% making a lot of money, are in it for 200%.
They also have the amazing ability to switch off common things like "a consciousness" or "empathy" if it stands between them and a sale.

You can still make some good money for starting your own business but I'd recommend bootstrapping above spending doing sales for a lot of time.

Anyway, The Black Knights post is spot on in my experience. Here's a way you could start in the UK:

1. Go do the shittiest sales job you can find. Door to door, on the street, even telemarketing. Do this for two weeks. Asked to be paired up by the best performing guy in the office. Try to learn from him the best you can.

2. Ask around where the previous most succesfull guys left to. There are always companies out there paying more for the same shitty work. Keep this in the back of your mind. This is your backup plan if you can't make step 3 happen in a short period of time. If you cannot level up then you just take baby steps by switching from one company to the next.

3. Start looking for simple sales jobs with high commissions and preferably no hourly wage. It doesn't matter what you are selling but preferably the process is simple and the commissions are high. Figure out what the best guys are earning. Don't listen to the recruiters, they are inflating the numbers. Talk to people on the floor instead. Do what you have to to get your foot in the door.

4. Find 2-3 guys who do very well. Become labrador, coffee boy or their sincere friend: whatever gets you their advice. Show you're eager to learn and do whatever they say. Emulate what they do, figure out what works for you and work until you earn.

5. In these type of businesses (that work on commission and have simple sale processes) there are usually guys who have plans how to get rich. Either by investments or by leveling up. Pay attention to their plans. Also pay attention to people who recently left the company because they made enough money. Don't fall for any interesting investment opportunities they may offer you, they are looking out for themselves and not for you.
If these guys are not in your current business and they are just trying to pay the bills you are not in a commission-based salesforce. You're in the wrong place. Keep looking for one.

There are some great threads on the forum about becoming a salesman. Don't miss out on those.

Feel a bit retarded, I don't really understand your fifth point? Do you mean my own coworkers offering the investment opportunities? What do you mean by them not being in my current business?

As an aside, there is an alternative option - I could take out a Start Up loan (up to £25k at a fixed interest rate of 6.2%, payable over 1-5 years), but obviously there is the glaring issue of not making any profit and thus being in debt for potentially 5 years.

Post: #19

Good point. So you can look at how these guys are getting rich. But be very, very careful when they present you with an "opportunity". Do your own due diligence.
If you are in a salesforce where the guys are not thinking about how to get rich with the money they made there, you are in the wrong salesforce.

Taking out a loan: I am not a business owner but I spend a lot of time fucking around with different ways to make some seed money for something I want to do. I lost a lot of time because of it. Figure out how much time it would cost to make 25K and decide for yourself if the way you have to spend that time is worth it.

Example: let's say you can make 25K by eating old lady p*ssy. They pay you 100 quid per lady. That's 250 grannies you would have to eat out. Don't think about one gross lady in particular, just imagine hours and hours of licking. Is it worth that 25K?

Now most guys will say know to the above but also most guys will happily work a boring, soulless job for 2 years to save 25K so they can pursue their "dream". If that's a full-time job and it eats at you, are those 3840 hours of doing something shitty worth that 25K?

If you have a way out, either by doing something you are passionate about or by creating passive income, do it.

I am not saying you should take out the loan. Here's an idea: convince one person to give you 25K. You need to make one sale, convince them it's a good investment and you're all set.

Post: #20

I don't personally recommend emigrating to the US for jobs unless you already have a good job where you are at and a better job offer here. There are so many hidden costs to emigrating it's not even funny.

Public transport more or less does not exist in 98% of the country and rent prices anywhere that has high wages and public transport are off the charts. "Job density" is low here. If you don't have a sponsor (not in a legal sense, literally somebody you can crash on their couch for a month or two), you're probably kind of fucked. Hostels don't seem to exist. Hotels are hilariously overpriced. I know a foreigner who tried doing what you're suggesting and he ended up living in a box van for three months.

You should check out the "Learn to be a computer programmer" thread since apparently Glasgow is a thriving tech hub that will hire people who do some kind of programming for 6-9 months. If your job offer to the US is not six figures it's unlikely you'll be able to skirt H1B requirements.

I know of no place in the US that will even consider hiring entry level programmers who have less than a year experience and they want an associates degree minimum. The tech interviews here are also competitive, and every entry level job I've found has no less than 40-50 applicants, most of whom have CS degrees and internships. You could probably pivot a software engineering job into a software sales job and basically print money, THEN you can move to the US, probably the west coast, and stack paper like there's no tomorrow in a country where thrift is rewarded and that doesn't rape your income into insanity through taxes.

Just my .02, your mileage may vary.

Post: #21

(03-26-2018 03:04 PM)RedKurrant Wrote:  

(03-26-2018 02:23 PM)jamaicabound Wrote:  

(03-26-2018 01:58 PM)Matt3B Wrote:  I looked into this years ago.

I'm pretty sure to be able to get a job there, you'd have to have a specialist skill that they require a reason for hiring internationally as opposed to from their own country.

Getting into a big company that has international presence, doing some time and then switching office is a good plan.

I don't think that's necessarily a legal requirement but I believe a company is somewhat involved in helping with paperwork or sponsoring you in some fashion so unless you have an in with someone at the company I doubt they would want any extra legwork unless you had something unique to bring to the table.

So it wouldn't be possible to get some mediocre job and stay permanently, and then look for a better job?

If you can get one sure but my point was if it's going to be extra work and/or extra expense for a company to hire a foreigner as opposed to a citizen, why am I gonna hire you as a call center worker or dishwasher and have to jump through hoops to hire you for an unskilled job when they can hire any guy off the street and not have to do that.

Post: #22

(03-27-2018 04:47 AM)RedKurrant Wrote:  To be honest I don't know if I'd be good at or like sales. Saying that, many people have said that I have very good interpersonal skills i.e. good at reading people, making conversation, listening more than speaking etc.

At the end of the day all I want to do is run my own product-based business, but I need to earn more money first. I'm therefore prepared to hustle for as long as it takes. Thing is, in my current job I don't get paid overtime (even though I am 'expected' to work outside my contracted hours) so it will take ages to save enough cash. Sales therefore seems to be the only viable option where I can earn a decent amount in a short period of time.

You have two options in my view:

1. Get a sales job in the industry your product would be based in. This would provide valuable industry connections as well as give you an inside view of the industry and therefore, very valuable knowledge on what sub-markets are ripe to make some money in.

2. Seek out funds from angel investors, incubators, kickstarter, etc, and go from there.

I would highly suggest #1 since some sales experience, especially in a industry you see yourself running a business in eventually, will increase your odds of success tremendously whenever you go out on your own.

Anyone that has done sales and gone out on their own will tell you that doing sales for a bit (even for only 6 months/1 year) gave them a huge leg up when they decided to start their own operation. Even if you suck as sales, the industry contacts (i.e. potential partners) and inside knowledge makes it worth it. If you want people to buy your stuff, you've got to learn the art of selling unless you're going to be the tech/inventor/engineer guy and partner up with someone to do the business side of things. That said, engineer/tech guys that can also sell are in BIG TIME in-demand and can make shit tons of money if they start up their own thing.

As far as sales skills is concern, it's better to learn on someones elses dime than when you have a bunch of business loans and have no idea what the hell you're doing and are too scared to cold call.

One last thing: just because your friends say you have decent people skills doesn't mean shit. Harsh but true. When you can do your 60th call of the day after 5 days straight of calling and getting no bites while dealing with people hanging up on you/being assholes/playing games, and still maintain a positive attitude so when a tiny opening finally occurs, you can close the deal.... that's when you know you're kind of good at it or not.

The hardest thing about sales isn't the conversations in my opinion; it's maintaining the will to keep going and working through the grind week after week while your head is in the guillotine. All the while many things are beyond your control since you don't run the company. There are lots of people with decent people skills; there are FAR fewer people who can handle the heat and pressure constantly for months on end. There is a reason that really good sales guys make a shit ton of money: they are a rare breed. It's not a great lifestyle long-term unless your personality is VERY tailored to the demands of it; even if you're super good at selling for someone else. If you're really good at it, you're much better off working for yourself in the long-term. If you're good at sales, you're already ahead of many business competitors who couldn't sell ice water to a dehydrated man in the Sahara.

In this era especially of socially retarded adults raised on "everybody gets a medal"/strict digital communication methods, most 20-30 somethings are absolutely terrified of rejection/failure and have zero phone/in-person social skills. Good for you if you can actually sell shit though.

That said, give it a go and see where it goes.

Post: #23

(03-27-2018 09:11 PM)The Black Knight Wrote:  The hardest thing about sales isn't the conversations in my opinion; it's maintaining the will to keep going and working through the grind week after week while your head is in the guillotine. All the while many things are beyond your control since you don't run the company. There are lots of people with decent people skills; there are FAR fewer people who can handle the heat and pressure constantly for months on end. There is a reason that really good sales guys make a shit ton of money: they are a rare breed. It's not a great lifestyle long-term unless your personality is VERY tailored to the demands of it; even if you're super good at selling for someone else. If you're really good at it, you're much better off working for yourself in the long-term. If you're good at sales, you're already ahead of many business competitors who couldn't sell ice water to a dehydrated man in the Sahara.

Now I understand when people say running game is like sales. I felt this exhaustaion acutely last week. I couldn't bring myself to go out and run sets, even though my results were decent. Constant small accumulation of rejection eventually builds up.