Post: #1

So I'm in a new relationship with a girl, which seems promising. Thing is, when the relationship started again (it's a girl I took back - 2 years later), I have had a very strong frame with her for a variety og reasons.

We've had loads og sex and it's been going well so far.

Boiling the problematic down, I want to hear opinions on wether I should accept her rejecting sex. In this stage of the relationship it feels pretty bad. Generally I feel uneasy letting her reject me at this point as giving her power seems like a bad move - so what to do?

Pull back a little when I experience rejection og this kind?

Accept it. Maybe she just doesn't feel like sex right now.

Post: #2

Hi Soeren
I doubt that "she just doesn't feel like sex right now"

Are you available to her all the time? (as one who gets friendzoned would be).
Does she feel any competition? She would probably want to have sex with you, if she knew you had other opportunities.
You could do this by working more on yourself (go to the gym, dress better etc).

I would not keep her, if she doesn't want to have sex. Because why would you? there are tons of girls out there who would happily have sex.

You should read "rational male" by Rollo Tomassi. It contains great insights on this stuff.

Post: #3

(05-05-2018 07:43 AM)Soerenballe Wrote:  So I'm in a new relationship with a girl, which seems promising. Thing is, when the relationship started again (it's a girl I took back - 2 years later), I have had a very strong frame with her for a variety og reasons.

We've had loads og sex and it's been going well so far.

Boiling the problematic down, I want to hear opinions on wether I should accept her rejecting sex. In this stage of the relationship it feels pretty bad. Generally I feel uneasy letting her reject me at this point as giving her power seems like a bad move - so what to do?

Pull back a little when I experience rejection og this kind?

Accept it. Maybe she just doesn't feel like sex right now.

I would recommend seeing a psychologist to help you with proper social behavior in a relationship because this is a beyond noob question. Obviously sometimes both men and women don't want to have sex for a variety of reasons. Just communicate like a normal human being and stop trying to take game and power dynamics to a cartoonish extreme. Maybe her vagina hurts or it's that time of the month. Maybe you turned her off by acting oblivious and antisocial, which is highly plausible given the nature of the question. Women need to be in the mood way more than men so if you're being a douche for the sake of maintaining the upper hand at all times it's probably self defeating.

A healthy relationship requires some degree of mutual respect, comfort and communication. Your appetite for sex is rarely going to match up perfectly with a partner. Just communicate with her and if she's still being frigid too often, just break up and move on. The fact that you say you've been having "lot's of sex" indicates you are likely the one being unreasonable due to some extreme misinterpretation of what good game entails.

Post: #4

^Pot meet kettle

Post: #5

It's a serious question though. I don't ignore the fact that a relationship is a two-way interaction but with all the stuff I've read from Tomassi, Roosh and other people online and from these forums coupled with my own experience from two years of heavy I accumulated over the past couple of years, I have to say that I've come to respect the question of holding frame tremendously. It is not a question of wether or not it is okay for her to get a break from my dick, it's the fact that I am sensing a drop in sexual availability (even if just slightly). I might be sensitive about the issue but since I do care about the girl it's important. Talking to her about it feels like a VERY poor option.

I might need to add a little bit of context, even though my main idea was to get opinions from people in here on how they generally the effect of sexual rejection on general frame.

We have started to include words of a stronger degree than: I like you - which in hindsight... well! I am afraid this gives her added security and caring less about pleasing me. At the same time we ARE spending quite a lot of time together and she has even been introduced to my son and stuff and has expressed that she wants to meet my family and all. All nice things and I will have to give up a little more frame over the cause of the relation if it gets to LTR status.

Has anyone any contribution on how important it is "that the women spreads her legs" in the relation equation (pardon my French)

Am I too hung up on frame here? Being in control of the relationship? I really feel I could end up in a really bad place (read beta) if I don't stay in control. She did on a number of occasions have reason

Post: #6

(05-05-2018 10:39 AM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  ^Pot meet kettle

Fair enough, objection sustained. I misread the OP to be nonchalantly asking if he should be forcing himself on her to maintain frame but on second read it seems I misconstrued it. I still don't understand how you can get from "loads of sex" and "it's going well" to asking if you should ever tolerate being declined because it implies it's rare. It's impossible to give a reasonable answer without more details on the context, frequency and reason she's turning you down.

Post: #7

(05-05-2018 11:16 AM)jcardial Wrote:  

(05-05-2018 10:39 AM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  ^Pot meet kettle

Fair enough, objection sustained. I misread the OP to be nonchalantly asking if he should be forcing himself on her to maintain frame but on second read it seems I misconstrued it. I still don't understand how you can get from "loads of sex" and "it's going well" to asking if you should ever tolerate being declined because it implies it's rare. It's impossible to give a reasonable answer without more details on the context, frequency and reason she's turning you down.

Dont mind me. I was up late and cranky before my first cup of coffee. Im better now

(05-05-2018 11:03 AM)Soerenballe Wrote:  It's a serious question though. I don't ignore the fact that a relationship is a two-way interaction but with all the stuff I've read from Tomassi, Roosh and other people online and from these forums coupled with my own experience from two years of heavy I accumulated over the past couple of years, I have to say that I've come to respect the question of holding frame tremendously. It is not a question of wether or not it is okay for her to get a break from my dick, it's the fact that I am sensing a drop in sexual availability (even if just slightly). I might be sensitive about the issue but since I do care about the girl it's important. Talking to her about it feels like a VERY poor option.

I might need to add a little bit of context, even though my main idea was to get opinions from people in here on how they generally the effect of sexual rejection on general frame.

We have started to include words of a stronger degree than: I like you - which in hindsight... well! I am afraid this gives her added security and caring less about pleasing me. At the same time we ARE spending quite a lot of time together and she has even been introduced to my son and stuff and has expressed that she wants to meet my family and all. All nice things and I will have to give up a little more frame over the cause of the relation if it gets to LTR status.

Has anyone any contribution on how important it is "that the women spreads her legs" in the relation equation (pardon my French)

Am I too hung up on frame here? Being in control of the relationship? I really feel I could end up in a really bad place (read beta) if I don't stay in control. She did on a number of occasions have reason

Edited

Anyone with real experience with women knows getting into a relationship isn't the finish line. Quite the opposite

No youre right to be concerned. Im not really into game jargon but she's getting too "comfortable" in your dynamic. Ever heard "Familiarity breeds contempt" ? She's getting complacent and if your intention is to keep her around this is a dangerous momentum.

An essential part of a woman's sex drive (desire) is actually "fear" driven.

Have you read Heartistes take on "dread game". There are fundamentals of game that work across the board with little variation. Dread is one of them.

https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/dread/

Quote:« Hardest ChallengesGoing Sexual »
Dread
March 27, 2008 by CH

There are two ways to guarantee a healthy relationship. By healthy, I mean the girl is in love with you and there is no threat of her leaving; you have all the leverage you need to assure yourself peace of mind and a steady sexual outlet.

Meet your soulmate
If you are extremely lucky enough to cross paths with your soulmate this is the easiest way to live the kind of romantic bliss that Hollywood movies exalt. A soulmate connection is the Golden Ticket to happiness and a dreamlike existence. But it is rare. Don’t live as if it will happen to you. I estimate 1% of all men and 2% of all women meet their soulmates. The reason for the discrepancy is that male soulmates are in shorter supply than female soulmates. Male soulmates are shared amongst the women like a community hookah.

Instill dread
Women respond viscerally in their vagina area to unpredictability, mixed signals, danger, and drama in spite of their best efforts to convince themselves otherwise. Managing your relationship in such a way that she is left with a constant, gnawing feeling of impending doom will do more for your cause than all the Valentine’s Day cards and expertly performed tongue love in the world. Like it or not, the threat of a looming breakup, whether the facts justify it or not, will spin her into a paranoid estrogen-fueled tizzy, and she’ll spend every waking second thinking about you, thinking about the relationship, thinking about how to fix it. Her love for you will blossom under these conditions. Result: she works harder to please you.

The key for the man is to adopt a posture of blase emotional distance alternated with loving tenderness. Too much of either and she’ll run off.

Examples of effective doom inducement:

Turn off your cell phone twice a week. Alternate days. Don’t do this on a Friday or Saturday night unless the relationship is shaky and needs a high voltage jolt of dread.

Make a blatant but plausibly deniable move on one of her friends when she’s not around. The news will get back to her. Milk it.

Call her from a very busy place so that she can hear women’s voices laughing and shrieking in the background. Don’t tell her where you are when she asks. Just say you’ll see her soon.

Mention how skilled your Russian ex was at giving head. Bring it up again a few days later, pretending not to remember the first time you mentioned it. Bonus: Russians are very good at giving head, so this will have the ring of truth.

Be seen by your girlfriend flirting with other women in a social venue. Extra points if the women are attractive. Double extra points if you flirt without looking back at your girlfriend once to check her reaction.

Cook her a romantic candlelight dinner at home. Make it a memorable experience, complete with jazz, chocolate, and rose petals. Then, do not talk with her for four days afterwards.

Ignore her calls for a week. When you eventually answer and she reads you the riot act, act as if nothing was wrong and accuse her of sabotaging a perfectly good relationship, “just like all the other women in this stupid city. I thought you were different”. Hang up on her angrily.

When her best friend tells you how cute you and your girlfriend look together, shrug, put your hand to the back of your neck as if to scratch an itch there, look down slightly and with a mildly annoyed expression blandly sigh “Yeeeeah…”. Triple bonus points if your girlfriend is standing right there.

When she attempts the jealousy maneuver by flirting with another guy, act unfazed. Give her pickup tips.

Gaze longingly into her eyes, say how hot she looks, then immediately glance sidelong at the bosom of any strange woman in the vicinity.

Have a threesome. Spend an inordinate amount of time admiring the labia of the other woman. Be sure to moan louder with her. WARNING: If you cum on the other woman you will have to spend weeks consoling your girlfriend.

Say things like “I really value my independence and freedom” relevant to nothing in particular. It’s just a thought that popped in your head.

Thermonuclear Option:

Have an affair and make sure she finds out about it. Arrange the confrontation so that it does not happen at your place. When she confronts you, don’t get defensive. Don’t speak at all. Let her vent. Let her punch you in the chest and scream obscenities. When she takes a breather, tell her she’s never looked more beautiful and you will never stop loving her. Then without waiting for her response calmly walk out the door and break off all contact for two weeks. When she comes back to you… and she will… you will have a love slave for life.

You need to inject a little uncertainty to keep her committed

Post: #8

Thank you for the insight PapayaTapper!

I am excercising some dread in my approach to her (maybe not as aggressively as the Heartiste suggestions) and she is reacting by saying that she is unceartain if something is wrong. I could be more manipulative but her behaviour really doesn't warrant it. Maybe I just need to take a breather and balance my behaviour when I'm with her better. I guess I will measure her sexual behaviour to me in the near future and see where it is heading. Nothing beats the rottenness of being rejected in bed. Nothing.

If need be, I'll turn up the dread, I just really don't feel like going borderline psychopathic on her and I think it would scare her off honestly.

Post: #9

(05-05-2018 12:48 PM)Soerenballe Wrote:  Thank you for the insight PapayaTapper!

I am excercising some dread in my approach to her (maybe not as aggressively as the Heartiste suggestions) and she is reacting by saying that she is unceartain if something is wrong. I could be more manipulative but her behaviour really doesn't warrant it. Maybe I just need to take a breather and balance my behaviour when I'm with her better. I guess I will measure her sexual behaviour to me in the near future and see where it is heading. Nothing beats the rottenness of being rejected in bed. Nothing.

If need be, I'll turn up the dread, I just really don't feel like going borderline psychopathic on her and I think it would scare her off honestly.

It shouldn't require extremes (if it does then she's not LTR material) but it does require balance and titration.

Quote:The key for the man is to adopt a posture of blase emotional distance alternated with loving tenderness. Too much of either and she’ll run off

Active dread as described in Heartistes post is very useful. But where I think where we as men often fail is in our own complacency. We think the relationship is "good" so we get comfortable* and over do the "tenderness" which can breed contempt on her part. Passive moves like simply withdrawing some amount of attention and or affection works just as well.

Remember its a fine balance. Just enough to not let her ever get too comfortable.

*Staying in shape is important for the same reason. She needs to know or at least wonder if other women find you attractive

Post: #10

(05-05-2018 12:48 PM)Soerenballe Wrote:  Thank you for the insight PapayaTapper!

I am excercising some dread in my approach to her (maybe not as aggressively as the Heartiste suggestions) and she is reacting by saying that she is unceartain if something is wrong. I could be more manipulative but her behaviour really doesn't warrant it. Maybe I just need to take a breather and balance my behaviour when I'm with her better. I guess I will measure her sexual behaviour to me in the near future and see where it is heading. Nothing beats the rottenness of being rejected in bed. Nothing.

If need be, I'll turn up the dread, I just really don't feel like going borderline psychopathic on her and I think it would scare her off honestly.

It's interesting that you say there's nothing more rotten than getting turned down in bed (how about getting cheated on?), because if she's picking up on the gravity of your emotional reaction, which I imagine she is, then there's a decent chance it's hurting attraction. Women will sometimes turn their cheek on the first kiss or mid make out just to see if you remain confident in the face of denial. Even if it's not calculated your reaction is important. I'm not suggesting she's testing you, but even responding with weak or dejected body language to a denial frames the situation as "I need your love or I'll feel rotten" versus being unaffected which would imply "you're just being silly or difficult and I can live without you."

Post: #11

Who ended the relationship the first time round, and why? What were the circumstances?

Post: #12

You should never* tolerate getting turned down for sex within a relationship. Next time it happens, walk out on her without a word and cut contact for a day. No amount of rational talking about sex or seeing therapists will help this. If it still persists you dump her. Any other frame will lead you to getting denied again and eventually cucked.

*Barring say, influenza or something.

Post: #13

(05-05-2018 08:13 PM)jcardial Wrote:  

(05-05-2018 12:48 PM)Soerenballe Wrote:  Thank you for the insight PapayaTapper!

I am excercising some dread in my approach to her (maybe not as aggressively as the Heartiste suggestions) and she is reacting by saying that she is unceartain if something is wrong. I could be more manipulative but her behaviour really doesn't warrant it. Maybe I just need to take a breather and balance my behaviour when I'm with her better. I guess I will measure her sexual behaviour to me in the near future and see where it is heading. Nothing beats the rottenness of being rejected in bed. Nothing.

If need be, I'll turn up the dread, I just really don't feel like going borderline psychopathic on her and I think it would scare her off honestly.

It's interesting that you say there's nothing more rotten than getting turned down in bed (how about getting cheated on?), because if she's picking up on the gravity of your emotional reaction, which I imagine she is, then there's a decent chance it's hurting attraction. Women will sometimes turn their cheek on the first kiss or mid make out just to see if you remain confident in the face of denial. Even if it's not calculated your reaction is important. I'm not suggesting she's testing you, but even responding with weak or dejected body language to a denial frames the situation as "I need your love or I'll feel rotten" versus being unaffected which would imply "you're just being silly or difficult and I can live without you."

Good point. Women will sometimes test, even unconsciously, by withdrawing to determine "intensity". If you react in a negative emotional way you fail.

Acting with confident amused mockery of her test is a good way to handle. Scoffing as if she's ridiculous for withholding what is rightfully yours (access to her pussy) is a good way of demonstrating "intensity" she's looking for without showing weakness

Post: #14

(05-06-2018 05:28 AM)Bushido Wrote:  You should never* tolerate getting turned down for sex within a relationship. Next time it happens, walk out on her without a word and cut contact for a day. No amount of rational talking about sex or seeing therapists will help this. If it still persists you dump her. Any other frame will lead you to getting denied again and eventually cucked.

*Barring say, influenza or something.

I agree a therapist isn't going to help with attraction, I misinterpreted the OP initially. However game/relationship coaching from a guy who knows what he's talking about could help to determine if big mistakes are being made. Feeling terrible or over reacting to a rejection let's her know she has your balls in a vice and if you're making that kind of error it's likely there are other mistakes being made. I agree with Papaya that a power play or two could definitely get things back on track, but it might not work long term, especially if they aren't congruent with how you're acting around her.

There's a big difference between her rejecting one or two times out of the last ten for plausible reasons versus three or four plus with little to no signs of remorse. A fairly occasional rejection from a tired, bloated, menstruating girl without that high of a sex drive to begin with is pretty different from one that had more of a nympho temperament when you met and is now getting increasingly frigid.

That said, in my experience an attracted girl will give head or let you be a vampire during her period if you so desire, but typically only if you coax her into it. Many are just self conscious about turning you off as they view it as a bit crude. Regardless of her reason, pouting about it isn't the way to go. Ask if she's gassy and is worried about farting on you. Assuage her fears.

Post: #15

I think the only barometer that matters on the strength of a bond between men and women is how much the woman wants to have sex with you. That's what passion is. It's the dividing line between a friend and a lover.

That involves creating an unwavering linkage between seeing her and something sexual taking place during the evening, even if it's just diddling her in a parking lot. Orgasms WILL happen come hell or high water no matter what the cover-story is for the evening's activities.

Women can very easily ease into a situation where they treat sex as a routine activity that is provided on-tap just to take the edge off but not be craving it anymore. You have to pace things out and make each get-together unique and memorable enough to prevent that.

I also think it's a good idea if you see her often enough to make actual intercourse less frequent. So you separate sex into two tiers, "fooling around" and the full course meal. Women sort of have a bi-phase sexuality where they need to get off but while they are getting off they suddenly have this wave of desire for cock crash over them, otherwise they feel like they didn't satisfy the complete biological imperative. This is exactly why escalation works. Their rational brain shuts down completely. Their hind-brain takes over and demands cock (and cum) in their pussy. On the "off" days you deny them. It's probably the closest feeling women can have to blue-balls. They will have a hard time complaining about it because technically they had orgasms but they are going to be counting the moments before they can have the full-monty.

So naturally the best way to stage this is to be engaging in some nightlife where the logistics don't allow for much more than your hand down her pants in a dark corner. You get double-duty because you prove to her you're more than just a booty-call which in turn trains her to want a booty-call. There's no option but to work with the grain of a woman's neuroses this way. I think women are happiest when the smoke is coming out of their ears from the grinding of gears of their sexual neuroses. It's what keeps them up all night blowing up your phone with texts.

This is a lot easier to do when there is genuine poor logistics as in my case, like living with a roommate, single parenthood, etc... With two singles living alone it's more challenging to construct plausible deniability.

It would be a hell of a lot easier to find a woman who a genuine nymphomaniac who would be content to netflix and chill 24/7 but that's not easy.

Post: #16

Obviously you can not demand or rape them, so whining to get sex is so beta boy.

Storming off, going ghost because she rejected you seems beta buthurt as well. Thats giving her too much power.

You have to pretend you don't care, you are not in short supply of pussy, and hers is nothing special anyway.

But don't be throwing a tantrum if she hold back.

If she hold back too much, just find another women who is attracted to you, enjoys sex and doesn't play games with holding it.

And that's a pretty rare women.

Post: #17

Yeah. The way I left things off on our first merry go round 2 years back when I was just getting heavily red-pilled and aware about intergender dynamics, I totally wasn't ready for her. Even though we were not officially in a relationship, she thought we were and when I sat down with her for the talk she was crying and shit.

She even told me after we had fucked once this time around that she was really sad about our "breakup" a couple of years back - so my vantage point here was extremely strong. A lot of my power back then also rested in the fact that I "dumped" her and this lingers in the back of her mind undoubtedly.

Maybe I'm just being oversensitive here but I feel like I am in unknown waters.

Post: #18

Dump the bitch and find a new thot.

Post: #19

(05-06-2018 04:28 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  Obviously you can not demand or rape them, so whining to get sex is so beta boy.

Storming off, going ghost because she rejected you seems beta buthurt as well. Thats giving her too much power.

Not if it's backed by real intention to leave her if she doesn't straighten up her act.

Also it's not "storming off". You walk out without a word.

You guys are advocating negotiating sex in one way or another which is a futile endeavour.

Post: #20

(05-07-2018 02:09 AM)Bushido Wrote:  

(05-06-2018 04:28 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  Obviously you can not demand or rape them, so whining to get sex is so beta boy.

Storming off, going ghost because she rejected you seems beta buthurt as well. Thats giving her too much power.

Not if it's backed by real intention to leave her if she doesn't straighten up her act.

Also it's not "storming off". You walk out without a word.

You guys are advocating negotiating sex in one way or another which is a futile endeavour.

It isn't a bad negotiation if you're not sacrificing anything.
Her: I can't
You: why not?
Her: It's that time of the month
You: Oh, that doesn't bother me, but I should get a towel
*sexo ensues*

Or if you think you can pull it off you can go the more aggressive Roosh route and ask if her mouth is also bleeding.

Just leaving without a word is too passive aggressive. Slamming the door on the way out is only a bit needier and melodramatic. If you're at her place then just say bye like a normal human being with neither affection nor hostility and then you can always go radio silence if necessary.

Like anything the best course action depends a lot on details of the dynamic/context that the OP isn't providing so it's too hard to give specific advice. I don't think sulking or passive aggression is ever an ideal move.