Post: #1

NOTE: If you're having fun with the whole dating thing, legitimately enjoying the process and the company of the girls you meet, then this post is not for you.

I know many of you aren't. Many people find dating, particularly online dating, to be a drag. A chore. An minefield of misleading photos, flakes, damaged girls, girls who refuse to put in the effort, and girls who are simply not at all fun to be around. If you fall into this category, listen up:

All you need to do to have fun with dating again is shift your mindset in a very specific way. This advice will not get you laid, but it will save your soul.

Reading this forum has probably put you into the following frame of mind:

"Messaging on the app and texting are obstacles I need to overcome to get the date."

I ask that you start thinking in the following way instead:

"Messaging on the app and texting are precious gifts that allow me to weed out girls who would waste my time and energy."

When guys here post screenshots of their online interactions, I cringe. I cringe because they seem to be doing everything in their power to make dates with high flake risks and overall shitty individuals. Typically, the RVF poster exchanges several extremely laconic messages with the girl, then goes right for the number or date. The reasoning always goes something like "if you don't get the number right away, she may lose interest and stop responding." Why on earth is that a bad thing?! If she stops responding, that's just one less flaky, unreliable bitch to worry about.

Think about it this way: The only girls you gain by going for it right away, that you wouldn't have gotten otherwise, are ones who would've ghosted on you if you tried to carry on a bit of a conversation. Meanwhile you lose out on those who would prefer to feel each other out first; usually girls of higher quality. Is that really a tradeoff you want to make?

If you want to avoid flakes, miserable dates, and massive time wasting, here's a checklist of everything you should do before pitching a date to an online girl:

1. Scrutinize the hell out of her photos. What's more deflating than setting aside an evening, getting all amped up to go out and win your prize, traveling over to the venue, and then finding out that you actually have no interest in the "prize" you were prepared to fight for? Be as sure as you can possibly be that you're actually attracted to the girl you're challenging yourself to go out and earn. As I argue here, if her photos leave any doubt, it's always for a reason. A girl with a decent body will make it plain-as-day obvious (and that does not require slutty clothes). If you can, sleuth around to see what intel you can gather from her facebook and/or instagram.

2. Write engaging, somewhat lengthy messages, and see if she returns the favor. (By "somewhat lengthy," I don't mean novels; 2-4 sentences will suffice.) A girl who sends you nothing but terse, generic messages will always ultimately be a waste of time. But you can't expect her to do any better if that's all you're doing. Therefore, the only way to gather the information you need is to be engaging yourself and provide some conversational fodder. If she doesn't reciprocate, good-bye. If she does, then congratulations, you've verified two things with one stone: that she's capable of having a decent conversation (many girls aren't), and that she has enough interest in you to take the time to do so.

3. Write at least one message that does not contain a question. Answering questions is easy. Too easy. A girl that's worth your time should have the conversational ability and interest level to keep the conversation going without simply answering whatever question you posed. If she starts asking you questions at this point, then her interest level is 100% verified. I realize #2 and #3 test for the same things; they're important.

4. Have at least 6 or 7 messages exchanged back and forth. I don't know why, 6 or 7 (somewhat lengthy) messages each just feels like the point where she's proven a steady, unwavering interest. If your messages are shorter or being exchanged rapid-fire then I'd go for at least 10 each. Again, you're trying to select for reliable girls with serious interest, and willing to let the ADHD flakes get away.

BONUS: Once you've set up the date, assuming it's more than a couple days in advance, shoot her a random text or two in the interim to build some more comfort/rapport. "But that gives her a chance to change her mind!" GOOD. If she wants to change her mind, then by all means let her. Saves you a lot of hassle. That's your new mindset.

Like I said, this isn't necessarily optimal for your dick, but it's good for your soul. Figure out which you value more.

Post: #2

You don't get burnout if you are getting laid from it.

If you are going through a drought, the motivation dies.

Post: #3

man sometimes i feel like im the only one whose never tried online dating, not tinder, not dating sites, nada. I always thought they are too looks based for me to have any success with.

Post: #4

(05-31-2018 11:49 PM)Delta Wrote:  NOTE: If you're having fun with the whole dating thing, legitimately enjoying the process and the company of the girls you meet, then this post is not for you.

I know many of you aren't. Many people find dating, particularly online dating, to be a drag. A chore. An minefield of misleading photos, flakes, damaged girls, girls who refuse to put in the effort, and girls who are simply not at all fun to be around. If you fall into this category, listen up:

All you need to do to have fun with dating again is shift your mindset in a very specific way. This advice will not get you laid, but it will save your soul.

Reading this forum has probably put you into the following frame of mind:

"Messaging on the app and texting are obstacles I need to overcome to get the date."

I ask that you start thinking in the following way instead:

"Messaging on the app and texting are precious gifts that allow me to weed out girls who would waste my time and energy."

When guys here post screenshots of their online interactions, I cringe. I cringe because they seem to be doing everything in their power to make dates with high flake risks and overall shitty individuals. Typically, the RVF poster exchanges several extremely laconic messages with the girl, then goes right for the number or date. The reasoning always goes something like "if you don't get the number right away, she may lose interest and stop responding." Why on earth is that a bad thing?! If she stops responding, that's just one less flaky, unreliable bitch to worry about.

Think about it this way: The only girls you gain by going for it right away, that you wouldn't have gotten otherwise, are ones who would've ghosted on you if you tried to carry on a bit of a conversation. Meanwhile you lose out on those who would prefer to feel each other out first; usually girls of higher quality. Is that really a tradeoff you want to make?

If you want to avoid flakes, miserable dates, and massive time wasting, here's a checklist of everything you should do before pitching a date to an online girl:

1. Scrutinize the hell out of her photos. What's more deflating than setting aside an evening, getting all amped up to go out and win your prize, traveling over to the venue, and then finding out that you actually have no interest in the "prize" you were prepared to fight for? Be as sure as you can possibly be that you're actually attracted to the girl you're challenging yourself to go out and earn. As I argue here, if her photos leave any doubt, it's always for a reason. A girl with a decent body will make it plain-as-day obvious (and that does not require slutty clothes). If you can, sleuth around to see what intel you can gather from her facebook and/or instagram.

2. Write engaging, somewhat lengthy messages, and see if she returns the favor. (By "somewhat lengthy," I don't mean novels; 2-4 sentences will suffice.) A girl who sends you nothing but terse, generic messages will always ultimately be a waste of time. But you can't expect her to do any better if that's all you're doing. Therefore, the only way to gather the information you need is to be engaging yourself and provide some conversational fodder. If she doesn't reciprocate, good-bye. If she does, then congratulations, you've verified two things with one stone: that she's capable of having a decent conversation (many girls aren't), and that she has enough interest in you to take the time to do so.

3. Write at least one message that does not contain a question. Answering questions is easy. Too easy. A girl that's worth your time should have the conversational ability and interest level to keep the conversation going without simply answering whatever question you posed. If she starts asking you questions at this point, then her interest level is 100% verified. I realize #2 and #3 test for the same things; they're important.

4. Have at least 6 or 7 messages exchanged back and forth. I don't know why, 6 or 7 (somewhat lengthy) messages each just feels like the point where she's proven a steady, unwavering interest. If your messages are shorter or being exchanged rapid-fire then I'd go for at least 10 each. Again, you're trying to select for reliable girls with serious interest, and willing to let the ADHD flakes get away.

BONUS: Once you've set up the date, assuming it's more than a couple days in advance, shoot her a random text or two in the interim to build some more comfort/rapport. "But that gives her a chance to change her mind!" GOOD. If she wants to change her mind, then by all means let her. Saves you a lot of hassle. That's your new mindset.

Like I said, this isn't necessarily optimal for your dick, but it's good for your soul. Figure out which you value more.

Delta - this is extremely timely for me and has shifted my perspective on the whole thing when I was basically ready to pull the plug tonight. Really appreciate your post as well as some of the other ones you've dropped recently, it's really been keeping things in the proper context for me as I try to get back on the horse after a recent breakup of a three-year relationship by using these ridiculous dating apps.

Starting tomorrow I'll try going about it using your mentality.

Post: #5

I like the idea of coming from a mindset of gauging her level of interest rather than trying to seduce every woman who bothers responding to your online approach. Refusing to waste time on women who aren't obviously interested is a great way to save time in your dating life over all. And in the end you end up having more fun because the girls you end up meeting with are just as enthusiastic as you are, if not more.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #6

(06-01-2018 12:19 AM)Axel99 Wrote:  man sometimes i feel like im the only one whose never tried online dating, not tinder, not dating sites, nada. I always thought they are too looks based for me to have any success with.

Yes it is looks based.
Work to be as aesthetic as you can.
Get best pics you can.
Work on your profile.

Post: #7

Eh, that is why I don't really do online dating.

As a guy in real estate, I look at everything from an ROI (return on investment) perspective. How much time am I putting into this, and what kind of result is it producing? If it's not producing any profit, is it adding a benefit to my life? Is it something that brings me pleasure?

This is the way I look at online dating...

Time is the most valuable thing we have.

Between viewing her pictures, messaging back and forth, setting up a date, hoping she doesn't flake, etc. that's a lot of time put into something that has about a 20% ROI.

That's time I could be spending at the gym, building my law practice, doing jiu jitsu, studying scripture, playing Playstation, etc.

Since Tinder / Bumble, online dating become a huge time sink. Women simply have too many options online. It takes a tremendous amount of effort, and it's not really fun. I'd rather be playing video games than having to send idiotic text messages to a person I don't know. Plus, there is no way she can adduce who I am over messages typed over a computer.

In contrast, cold approaches are efficient as hell, and they're fun. Walk up to girls, talk to them, and see what happens. Sometimes you make new friends, or even meet other dudes. Worst case scenario is I went out and had a drink and maybe read ROK on my phone. It's fun, it's challenging, and it gets your adrenaline going. The more you do it, the better with women (and people in general) you become. You learn how to socialize with bartenders, servers, ladies, and other dudes hanging out. Your social skills will improve, even through rejection. It's even better when you have a wing, because then you got to hang out with your friend for an afternoon or evening.

You can also meet woman at places you actually enjoy going to, like Crossfit, church, the gym, jiu jitsu, something on meetup.com, etc. kbell has been doing dance classes and meeting women from it.

My uncle said this to me many years ago: "Take your potential clients to ballgames. Even if you don't get any business out of it, at least you got to watch a ballgame."

I think the same applies with game -- when you do stuff you enjoy, even if you don't get laid, at least you got to do something fun.

And yeah, I have Bumble on my phone, I've gone on a few dates, but for the most part it's just an app I open while taking a shit.

My advice? If you're going to do online dating, go out to a bar and do some cold approaches. While you're sitting there, feel free to open up Bumble and swipe. Put almost zero effort into it. That is maximizing your efficiency and your ROI. Plus, you got to have a drink and hopefully hang out with cool people.

Sitting on the couch swiping and texting is boring. It's time I'd rather spend doing anything else.

Post: #8

Well yea you don't sit on the couch with endless swiping. Not shortcuts but use SMARTcuts. You can automate it. Tell me what other way you can pipeline --

* have girls waiting for you at the airport. land and bang.
* busy working on your biz and still be able to get girls over within 1 hour

Like anything it takes some time and work to prep before you can optimize and automate it. Once you get pics and profile down, you rarely have to touch it again.

For those that can't get online to work for you are normally the ones that are too lazy to work on themselves (outer game). Not shaming anyone but that is census. All want 9's and 10's but not willing to focus on that aspect themselves.

Post: #9

Hank nailed it. Working online dating apps/sites is a huge timesink with a low ROI. I think there are a huge number of women who aren't really that interested in dating and are just using these things like a semi-anonymous chatroom when they're otherwise bored or lonely. Women worry about pump-n-dumps and men worry about window-shoppers. Goals of the genders are at cross-purposes.

Post: #10

I used to think online dating was a timesink and low ROI until the zero date bang and seeking arrangement. Now I'm finding online has passed nightgame for me, which is bringing less ROI than it used to.

Post: #11

It’s not just the ROI.

It’s a Cost-Risk-Benefit analysis. Unfortunately the CRB of online dating comes out better than night game, which isn’t saying much. This is mostly because the sex ratio in bars is probably worse than on dating apps and the cost of a few drinks much higher.

Meet Up is the way to go as it’s quasi online. You can choose events which will have single women present but when there, not make them your main goal.

It’s actually quite shocking how few conversations take place on swiping apps these days. Burnout is widespread.

Post: #12

This is an excellent post from the OP
I would also tell you that with a rather low amount of answers , and a very low amount of interesting answers , your opener must be the way for yourself to have fun.
I sometimes start with stuff like :
"you look cute but your ass is huge for me" (write this especially when her ass is not huge)
" I first thought you look cute , but after checking all pics , you look really nothing special. what do you have to offer me ?"

I do this mostly with girls above my league and many of them answer.... first aggressively but then i manage to turn around the situation

Post: #13

This exact scenario has happened to me a few times in my dating history. There's no definitive reason why she reacted the way she did, but the most likely reasons: the attraction wasn't there but she went along with it at the time, or that the kiss on the street activated some harsh ASD in a shy girl.

The best thing you can do in the future is not go for such a heavy makeout when you're not in the bedroom. Just a kiss at the end of the date so as not to relieve any sexual tension. This also keeps her wondering, and doesn't make you look too needy.

Saying that, I've had huge makeouts on the first date and seen them again, but I've never lost a girl just because I never went for one. So err on the side of caution.

Online is no cakewalk for most dudes. More misses than hits. Chin up.

Post: #14

(06-01-2018 02:20 AM)HankMoody Wrote:  Eh, that is why I don't really do online dating.

As a guy in real estate, I look at everything from an ROI (return on investment) perspective. How much time am I putting into this, and what kind of result is it producing? If it's not producing any profit, is it adding a benefit to my life? Is it something that brings me pleasure?

This is the way I look at online dating...

Time is the most valuable thing we have.

Between viewing her pictures, messaging back and forth, setting up a date, hoping she doesn't flake, etc. that's a lot of time put into something that has about a 20% ROI.

That's time I could be spending at the gym, building my law practice, doing jiu jitsu, studying scripture, playing Playstation, etc.

Since Tinder / Bumble, online dating become a huge time sink. Women simply have too many options online. It takes a tremendous amount of effort, and it's not really fun. I'd rather be playing video games than having to send idiotic text messages to a person I don't know. Plus, there is no way she can adduce who I am over messages typed over a computer.

In contrast, cold approaches are efficient as hell, and they're fun. Walk up to girls, talk to them, and see what happens. Sometimes you make new friends, or even meet other dudes. Worst case scenario is I went out and had a drink and maybe read ROK on my phone. It's fun, it's challenging, and it gets your adrenaline going. The more you do it, the better with women (and people in general) you become. You learn how to socialize with bartenders, servers, ladies, and other dudes hanging out. Your social skills will improve, even through rejection. It's even better when you have a wing, because then you got to hang out with your friend for an afternoon or evening.

You can also meet woman at places you actually enjoy going to, like Crossfit, church, the gym, jiu jitsu, something on meetup.com, etc. kbell has been doing dance classes and meeting women from it.

My uncle said this to me many years ago: "Take your potential clients to ballgames. Even if you don't get any business out of it, at least you got to watch a ballgame."

I think the same applies with game -- when you do stuff you enjoy, even if you don't get laid, at least you got to do something fun.

And yeah, I have Bumble on my phone, I've gone on a few dates, but for the most part it's just an app I open while taking a shit.

My advice? If you're going to do online dating, go out to a bar and do some cold approaches. While you're sitting there, feel free to open up Bumble and swipe. Put almost zero effort into it. That is maximizing your efficiency and your ROI. Plus, you got to have a drink and hopefully hang out with cool people.

Sitting on the couch swiping and texting is boring. It's time I'd rather spend doing anything else.

Cold approaches are not fun if you build up enough experience being "rejected" with the "my boyfriend" lie / line and stupid competitive conversation you couldn't care less about. Hence the beauty of dating apps...as much as I also hate them for the same reasons everyone else hates them - the liars, slobs, moms, skanks, false advertising, etc.

Post: #15

(06-01-2018 12:53 AM)tobehero Wrote:  

(06-01-2018 12:19 AM)Axel99 Wrote:  man sometimes i feel like im the only one whose never tried online dating, not tinder, not dating sites, nada. I always thought they are too looks based for me to have any success with.

Yes it is looks based.
Work to be as aesthetic as you can.
Get best pics you can.
Work on your profile.

I don't think i'll ever get tired of the superficial witch's brew of a juggernaut that is online dating. I researched "the best fashion photographers" in my area and invested $400 in a shoot. Man that fuckin $400 came back 10 motherfucking fold. I consider myself a good looking guy but my pictures are shit. I routinely get looks and every so often get approached when Im engaging in my night game exploits. I see people are often grow tired of online dating but the first thing i wonder is whether or not they put their best aesthetic foot forward. When I took my pics i was around 13%(still very lean but not ripped) but i was in such a rush to reap the benefits i didn't bother dieting down another 4 weeks or so to 9-10%bf. You know what, it didnt matter one fucking bit. You gotta make the investment in yourself gentlemen.

Post: #16

Great post Delta!

Like everything in life, you can change your frame of mind to always get a better result, or to better deal with a situation, even a shitty one.

Guys saying online is a waste of time - don't spend more than 10 minutes a day on it, you can and will get leads from that small investment.

I agree with Delta, its peak usefulness is when you ruthlessly cull the time wasters....

Post: #17

[/quote]

... I researched "the best fashion photographers" in my area and invested $400 in a shoot. Man that fuckin $400 came back 10 motherfucking fold. …
[/quote]

This is a suggestion worth following. We all think we are just passing by on tinder, but really we have been on and off of that for years.

I was lucky enough to run into an aficionado who took a great pic of me and I took a huge spike. The person has to care, know lighting, and setting. A lot of tinder is getting a feel for the person, so the pic can be telling in more than looks. To think if I had 5 pics like that!

Wanna do it on the cheap:
Convince your family members to group together and get a family shoot for your parents. This cuts your cost down and covers you for your xmas money. Parents love this stuff. Plus if your siblings have kids they will jump at this. Each family, couple, or tinder bachelor goes off and takes 15 minutes with the photographer.

Aside: Take a picture of just blood please! Divorce happens and ruins the investment. Tell the in laws not to be gay.

Anyway, usually in a situation like this you get an opportunity to take a good pic on the cheap. But really, I think paying up the $$$ and doing it properly is probably worth it in spades, so my suggestion is just the quick and easy.

Post: #18

This is a very necessary post for me. Thank you. I know that my frustration with online dating can show through the messages I send, which is probably why its potency has greatly decreased for me in the recent past.

On the bright side though this frustration with online dating many men have can force us to develop our live game, especially day game in my case.

Post: #19

(10-17-2018 08:23 AM)InvoluntaryHermit Wrote:  This is a very necessary post for me. Thank you. I know that my frustration with online dating can show through the messages I send, which is probably why its potency has greatly decreased for me in the recent past.

On the bright side though this frustration with online dating many men have can force us to develop our live game, especially day game in my case.

Put your shoes on, leave the house and start approaching. Right now. I can guarantee you'll have fun with the right mindset, though necessarily you'll get laid.

Post: #20

Online dating is a cesspool, and has only gone downhill since it's inception about a decade ago. I still remember the heyday of POF where there were hot girls messaging me 6 years ago.

Since then, online dating has become a way for girls to gain instagram followers and to simply gain a little hit of dopamine when they match with 1000 guys. I was on Tinder in recent months, and matched with well over 200 girls in the span of 1.5 months. The response rate would have put me among the batting averages of the worst MLB players to ever play in the league - and I wasn't sending generic stuff they've heard 100 times before.

Keep in mind that I can go out on any given night, approach 5 girls, and at least one of those will be a warm lead. The ROI on my time is far better spent in real life, where I can get instantaneous feedback, pull, and socially calibrate. Not only that, but it makes me better at life in general, being able to talk to people of all types, and gain relationships that go beyond that of only sexual satisfaction (I've made good friends while out and about, you can't do that on Tinder).

Most guys that only online date are insulating fragile egos. They don't want to face rejection head on. They don't want to make an effort or learn something that will make them a better man. They think that it is a way to "practice" game, even though it's really not. The number one complaint I get from girls about men today is that they are not the same in person as they are on a phone. So, when they meet me they are pleasantly surprised that I'm the same in person as when I am texting them the next time I want to see her.

If you only online date, you are a weak man, and when I meet (in person) the girl that you've been talking to on tinder for 3 weeks, trying to get her out on a date, I will make her forget about you. That's how it goes. You differentiate yourself by meeting a girl in real life now, what a novel concept. She will be excited for the man that has "the balls" to talk to her in real life, even though it's really a minor thing for us, because we've been doing it for years. You become her muse, her real life guy from that novel she's been wetting her panties to.

If you want to make dating fun, then go out two times a week, talk to people, and learn real game. Real game is fun, and is a lifestyle unto itself. If you want to burn out, then simply continue to swipe 1000's of girls, match with one of them, and have her promptly ghost you, or not reply at all. In case you didn't realize, girls in real life will give you feedback as to your approach and will allow you to actually get better at a tangible skill.

Online game was never meant to be the only way to meet women, and I'm glad that we as a forum agree that it should only be used as an addition to real life game, as opposed to a singular pursuit. The only benefit of online dating is that I can do it while taking a shit. In the words of the immortal gmanifesto: Real life, the original online dating app.

Post: #21

(10-17-2018 12:43 PM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  Online dating is a cesspool, and has only gone downhill since it's inception about a decade ago. I still remember the heyday of POF where there were hot girls messaging me 6 years ago.

Since then, online dating has become a way for girls to gain instagram followers and to simply gain a little hit of dopamine when they match with 1000 guys. I was on Tinder in recent months, and matched with well over 200 girls in the span of 1.5 months. The response rate would have put me among the batting averages of the worst MLB players to ever play in the league - and I wasn't sending generic stuff they've heard 100 times before.

Keep in mind that I can go out on any given night, approach 5 girls, and at least one of those will be a warm lead. The ROI on my time is far better spent in real life, where I can get instantaneous feedback, pull, and socially calibrate. Not only that, but it makes me better at life in general, being able to talk to people of all types, and gain relationships that go beyond that of only sexual satisfaction (I've made good friends while out and about, you can't do that on Tinder).

Most guys that only online date are insulating fragile egos. They don't want to face rejection head on. They don't want to make an effort or learn something that will make them a better man. They think that it is a way to "practice" game, even though it's really not. The number one complaint I get from girls about men today is that they are not the same in person as they are on a phone. So, when they meet me they are pleasantly surprised that I'm the same in person as when I am texting them the next time I want to see her.

If you only online date, you are a weak man, and when I meet (in person) the girl that you've been talking to on tinder for 3 weeks, trying to get her out on a date, I will make her forget about you. That's how it goes. You differentiate yourself by meeting a girl in real life now, what a novel concept. She will be excited for the man that has "the balls" to talk to her in real life, even though it's really a minor thing for us, because we've been doing it for years. You become her muse, her real life guy from that novel she's been wetting her panties to.

If you want to make dating fun, then go out two times a week, talk to people, and learn real game. Real game is fun, and is a lifestyle unto itself. If you want to burn out, then simply continue to swipe 1000's of girls, match with one of them, and have her promptly ghost you, or not reply at all. In case you didn't realize, girls in real life will give you feedback as to your approach and will allow you to actually get better at a tangible skill.

Online game was never meant to be the only way to meet women, and I'm glad that we as a forum agree that it should only be used as an addition to real life game, as opposed to a singular pursuit. The only benefit of online dating is that I can do it while taking a shit. In the words of the immortal gmanifesto: Real life, the original online dating app.