Post: #1

My latest date, yesterday evening, I was very pleased with. Overall, it represented an ascendancy of the level of quality I've been able to pull. To be concise, I tried to make the best impression I could, within the scope of the couple of hours it went on for, all the while keeping certain things in mind . . . such as not really giving a fuck at all as to how it turns out, to be realistic as to the likelihood of it going anywhere, and perhaps most predominantly of all, to just have fun with it.

There was very little physical escalation throughout the bulk of the event, given her rather introverted body language, but the eye contact was quite strong, with me holding a stretch for a time, until she'd either demurely glance to one side or downward. Personality-wise, we really seemed to connect.

After 2 hours, I walked her to her car, all the while, her arms folded, and so I relented on attempting to ramp up my standardized escalation template, other than a very subtle graze on the forearm or touch of the lower back.

We crossed a major intersection and approached her car, where I paused there to see her off, by this point having just about dismissed this gal as any kind of a prospect. She turns to me to offer an embrace, to which I reciprocate . . . but then, given how she gazes at me, her face close to mine, it seemed as though she was beckoning me for something more. And, in turn, I felt as though it was my job to provide that. I kissed her softly, and in the midst of such, she clearly had yet to be satisfied, so right there on the side of the street where she was parked, we engage in a tremendously passionate makeout, our hands all over each other. The whole ordeal went along in intervals, by where I'd pull back a bit, stare into her eyes, look over her body, and we'd start the whole thing over. We'd kiss for a half minute or more, back away, break the embrace, and go at it again. Could've been a full 15 rounds of this, with her making a feeble attempt at finishing up to leave, but she'd just stand there, and I'd be hangin' back, ready to let her go, but she'd linger, so I'd pull her in for another round, feeling her ass, kissing her neck, holding her so close.

I made a gentle push toward inviting myself into her place, which was nearby, but she softly declined, after which, we parted ways, and only so reluctantly.

Crossing back over the street, I recall feeling quite pleased, especially given I almost bailed on this one. Still, a thought that held prominence was how even the most advanced levels of escalation can simply not mean anything to these chicks. I think it's very easy and natural for the average dude to walk away from something like that thinking he's really got something special there . . .

Later that night, I get this text . . .

Hey, I just gotta come out and be honest with you because that is best. Dinner
was nice, but when we were at my car I was feeling awkward. I was kind of
going with the flow of things, because that's how I am, but I actually don't think
I should have kissed you or kept going because I wasn't really ready. And I
apologize, I am wierd for just letting things happen. I hate to be a downer now
but Im not feeling this and don't forsee a future, so sorry for the confusion.

Even being ready for it, the pang of disappointment gnawed sharply within me. My response . . .

'k

Tossing the phone aside, I said to myself, "I just can't do this anymore." Now, before anyone here slams me with Abundance Mentality, Oneitis, and all that shit, let me make it clear that I 100% subscribe to the maxim, "She's replaceable", but in recent times, I've been thinking, "Yeah, she's replaceable, all right . . . but with what?" Another 1st date to nowhere? I've simply yet to be able to fully condition myself to completely dismiss any tendency to want to bond with these women, as immensely foolish of a notion that it really is.

Post: #2

The biggest source of frustration in game is lack of clarity.

What are your game goals? What is your target pool? Are you doing things that drive you to acquire better game skills for your target pool? Or just randomly gaming attractive women with a hazy game plan?

Game is extremely unforgiving. One blockage in any step of the game can stall all your efforts up to that point.

My game is often described as methodical. The con is you attain slower results because you methodically test each step of the game. However, the pro is that once you get past that step, you have a repeatable skillset because you understand why you got stuck on a fundamental level. You get how to avoid making that same mistake again.

Post: #3

Sounds like you did everything right BUT...the end. I'll offer my two cents on what has worked for me well in these same kind of situations.

I think you "blew her out" with the heavy make out at the end. You blew out all the sexual tension. She sounds like she might have been a very shy girl and this heavy make out you had made her seem (in her convoluted way of thinking) "too easy" or even slutty even though you didn't bang.

Don't beat yourself up too much as I know I've made this same mistake with girls I liked and I know friends who have also. Intuitively, it doesn't make sense. I mean, she was kissing you back and pushing into you, etc. She likes me, therefore, she wants to definitely see me again. Sometimes, this is true. Other times, after she's had a chance to think about it and "regret" making out with you, it is not.

Girls are retards in this sense but it's just their hamster at work here.

It's best to keep the tension and mystery without going full make out on them.

I think this would have worked better and I'll bet you would have got another kind of text altogether and/or a second date had you done this:

End the date with a tender, relatively brief "sweet" kiss. I don't recommend tongue. Just a soft touching of the lips and perhaps lightly graze her hand with yours. Look her in the eye and say "have a good one/have a good night" ( just a brief goodbye)

Usually when my dates go like you describe the way yours did and I end it this way, I'll get a text that night or the next day from the girl saying she had a good time AND quite often, get the second date and beyond.

When you make out like you did, in her mind, you're no longer a "mystery" and all the tension has been released. Try this next time ( I know it's hard because you want to make out with such an attractive girl) but patience and restraint usually work best. The make out and sex happens on the second or, sometimes, third date (when you get them to your place)

Obviously, everything I recommend here is if you don't get the girl home on the first date. I usually suggest on first dates that we go back to my place to have " a little wine my friends brought over. then I'll have to kick you out" but often they'll decline this and say "maybe next time"

In such situations where you're not bringing them home on the first date, you want to keep the sexual tension going by not making out with them, yet wanting more.

Post: #4

I had a lot of that in mind with this deal, I really did. I had a very similar date a few days previously, and ended it in that exact, genteel method you recommended . . . and I never heard from her again, so this time I was like,"hell with it, do what you feel like right then". And also, why didn't she just leave? I left it way open for her to take off, but she went along with this marathon, only to lay that shit on me through the phone.

Post: #5

Hey Mess O,

I truly enjoyed reading your post and I can resonate really well because I have had numerous incidents like those.
However, I can't even remember 95% of my dates after few years and it's just a big fucking "blur" like an abstract paint or picture.

I think you are not giving yourself enough credit on keeping the vibe up with this chick and ending it with a Day 2 K-close. That's actually fucking great result. Realize that shit.

I remember back in the day, I was doing Daygame for the first time and I was happy when I got a fucking number or couple minutes with a hottie. LOL.

I would say, don't give up and try again because it doesn't really seem THAT bad.
I have had worse dates that were just awkward AF or just the girl was being super WEIRD AF.

Yeah, girls are just fucking weird and they don't even know what they want. Their feelings change all the time.
She can tell you, "Let me suck your dick forever! Your dick is mine forever! I will love you forever!" and then the next day she just goes cold and never texts you back. That's how bitches are. Don't take them seriously...

Just my two cents, I think you are doing great.

Post: #6

I greatly appreciate your sentiment, Big Business. Hell, just posting the thread makes me feel better about it, so let the input roll in. After this latest date, I just had to write about it. That's what RVF is for. Fuck, I just don't know how you guys do it. Game has gotten me the results I've attained so far . . .

Post: #7

Keep your head up my man. Stay busy with yourself with whatever it is that you do in terms of your passions, hobbies, or ways that you make money for yourself. Keep a couple good friends around to vent to & build with. Keep it moving. You probably won't find your soulmate any time soon, but you'll likely get laid sooner or later

Post: #8

"Chicks mate"

I think you did well. My interpretation was that you could possibly could be more playful?
IF she was being weird and closed like you say and then it ended in passionate kissing in the street, she's probably feeling a bit of shame and rationalising that as your fault, it protects her by suggesting it was your idea. Classic hamstering.

I can identify with the frustration you feel from her response after all that effort. After similar situations I've asked myself, what's the point in going through this again?

Fuck 'em. Keep it up

Post: #9

I feel you bro. Very similar experience where a girl invited herself over to my place and starts talking about her sexual past and her experimentation with girls.

In my mind, she was down to fuck all the signals were there. I move to the bedroom and lay down on my back and she sits on top of me in cowgirl position. When I try to pull her down to kiss her she refuses.

After some LMR I say screw it and stop trying. Then she randomly takes off her top and bra off and tells me she just wants to get comfortable.

I try to smash again. Bitch goes I'll have to leave soon so enjoy the moment for what it is.

I got up, threw on my shirt and told her to kindly leave my apartment. She can't even and tried to shame me. Omg I can't believe someone can be so rude and all. then texts me she wants to see me the coming weekend. Didn't even bother replying.

I am taking a break from girls and all this estrogenic bull for at least a month.

And seriously wish I was gay sometimes.

Post: #10

While every situation is different, a heavy makeout on a first date or second date without a bang could deflate the ongoing attraction. I think ASL could kick in for some women when they are confronted with their own sexual emotions and physical reaction to a first date close like that. Whereas a solid attraction close with some tension left because of restraint or discipline on the makeout can lead to a second date and a bang or dating.

I don't think you did anything wrong because you saw the opportunity and pushed the envelope. As expected by the man. There is no way of knowing whether she will feel shameful or excited about the encounter within the confines of her bedroom and post date rationalizations. Charge it to the game and keep on keeping on.

Post: #11

A big part of why I pushed it as such this time - despite getting the impression that she was ambivalent at best - is that I'm getting the increasing suspicion that, for the average dude at least, steady relationships, let alone even a 2nd goddamn date is rapidly heading towards extinction, given the sprawling oasis of options all these chicks have to continuously draw upon to trade-up. And so, in order to get some freakin' affection & companionship, I get the urge to just jam as much into the 2 hours as I can reckon, even if I doubt it's the most optimal route for a long-term success.

Post: #12

If I would have to guess, I would say it was an online date.

I had a similar situation a few months ago, from an online app, girl was really good looking, tall, slavic and cultured. I rarely do heavy makeouts, since I know it is normally a shotgun shot in a man foot, but we kissed, and I hold my arm around her while we where in the sofas of a karaoke bar. Next day I received a similar message to OPs. Only thing that came to my mind was WTF... she thinks I am in love or that she is that special?

Well, one or two weeks more and I got her on another date. Same thing, early night walk by the sea and seating in the park bench with some light kisses.

Next day she writes me something like she is not open for a new romantic story yet, wants to meet new people and see new places etc.

On that moment I thought she was probably crazy, and I replied: "go check your head".

I did a fast google research, and she was dating before a very rich socialite/tv person, then I understood that probably she was just checking if I could have had the means to provide her the same standards.

Better to approach live and in person, at least you more or less know with what you can count on.

Post: #13

A few weeks in LatAm/SEA should set you straight.

In all seriousness, though, we've all been there. And no matter how experienced you get, these things will still happen. Women are just... weird that way.

I wouldn't beat myself up too much over it. Reflect on it for a bit to see if you can learn from it, but once you've taken your lesson(s), move on to the next one. And the next...

Post: #14

Yep. From OKC. And I did think my reply to that essay of hers was admirable. And my best bud thought it was the most hilarious retort.

Post: #15

Hey man, I sense a little bit of existential dread in your posts. Let me tell you that I too struggle with existential dread. If you find yourself saying things like - yeah I can do X thing, but then what? I just do X thing over and over again. I would take a step back, give yourself time to breath for a little while. Re-establish parts of yourself that you tend to forget when things get overwhelming like - take care of your ego, you're actually doing cool stuff and probably having more success with women than 80% of men. Cement some of your goals, not like you forgot them but they may have changed or you may have lost sight of some of them and of course just take a while to clear your head, a brake, a sabbatical if you can.

I've been studying game for a few years now and have a few bouts of player fatigue. It always goes away and the spark always comes back eventually because it's fun. Try not to sweat it man.

You may want to consider taking refuge in an LTR for a while if you're open to it. Finding a nice girl to shack up with for a little while or even a long time always cheers me up at first, and it presents you with new and interesting challenges that are different with every situation but more importantly uses a different and equally important skillset. Of course if you're struggling with casual dating this may not be viable for you yet or you might be more geared for it. Who knows.

Also going monk mode for a little while is always an option too. I do it for a week or two when I get tired of women.

Best of luck man.

Post: #16

I can dig that. Maybe that's what I was hoping to put together with the last few dates. Especially the last two, I was like, "Hmm, I could really envision spending some serious time with this girl," but it ended up how it did. I'd like to build something serious, but it just seems impossible. Walkin' the streets, I see these couple, and am becoming increasingly mystified as to how the fuck they came together. But, as you mentioned, 'player fatigue', yeah, that's probably a big part of it.

Post: #17

What's your notch count and how many dates have you been on? If you don't mind me asking brother

Post: #18

I've got good news and bad news.

Bad news- This is normal, so get used to it.
Good news- This is normal, meaning it's not an indication that you're some kind of pariah.

As I was reading your post, a myriad of similar experiences were dredged up from the depths of my memory. Off the top of my head, I can recall 6 specific instances where I escalated a date to at least a makeout (or further in some cases), was really interested in seeing the girl again, and got rejected over text soon thereafter. I'm sure there are a couple more I've forgotten. The only thing I find weird about your story is how forthcoming she was in her text message; never seen that before. I usually get fed some cryptic bullshit about how I'm an amazing awesome guy, BUT...

I won't even get into the details of how, years back, a LTR suddenly broke things off out of nowhere when every indication (at least in my mind) was that things were going fantastically well. Just know that these things do happen in the modern day.

The bright side is that the dynamic changes once you've fucked her. I mean girls you're fucking can lose interest (see the previous paragraph), but once you've gotten that first bang, she's at least going to stick it out for awhile to see how things go. At least in my experience.

Post: #19

The point of no return deal breaker:
For a more conservative girl it might be a heavy make out and some grab ass. For another it might be a finger bang that doesn't lead to sex. If she is very attracted to you and it all makes sense within your narrative, it's not always a deal breaker that the tension was deflated or that there are some sexual expectations for the next date. If the date was kind of tepid as you alluded to, then agreeing to a second date is much more formidable since she is kind of implicitly agreeing to at minimum getting groped in public for fifteen minutes with a guy she is on the fence about.

Calibration:
An extended heavy make out didn't make sense within the context of your date and wasn't a good move to leave her wanting more. As someone mentioned, a brief kiss on the lips would have been fine to make it clear you were interested but not enough to make her feel regret or uncomfortable agreeing to a second date. If your date had been fun and physically flirty a heavy make out with groping still might gave been a bit much for a shy girl but there's a decent chance you would have gotten away with it because it would have made sense when she reflected on the date and she wouldn't be nearly as ambivalent about the idea of it happening again.

Post: #20

You live and you learn.

Robreke hit the nail on the head (+1 from me).

Seeing as we are doing a post-mortem on this interaction...

Error 1 - There was very little physical escalation throughout the bulk of the event. Her eye contact is telling. You need to warm her up; you would not red-line a car in winter immediately upon starting. It's the same with a woman and getting her ready. The 'hail-mary end-of-date' kiss is very high school and it transports their minds to that.

Error 2 - The over-the-top make out. This is what Robreke covered. It's excessive and when she looks back on it, she will rationalize it according to her experience levels, internal wiring and a whole bunch of things you don't have control over. You put the ball in her court and the odds are not good. You gotta move her around, pause the kiss, build some trust, do some teasing, vary her emotions (spike) and try and take her elsewhere. The energy stagnates and all she will remember is that you kissed for a long time and that's uncharacteristic; more-so in a public area with a girl who doesn't seem to be too experienced with such PDA.

Error 3 - No rhythm in your game, it seems stop start. The jump from no touching to full-on make out measures high on the ASD Richter scale and off-putting to the girl, after the fact. It has to be a steady, slow escalation over the course of your interaction. Rolling hills and whatnot (if you were to graph it).

Error 4 - Your text response. 'k' - childish, reactive response.

No response would have been better if you wanted to be bitter. I don't get guys who respond this way. If you're interested and enjoy her company, this response is weak and completely within her frame. You won't even have a chance of salvaging anything (assuming you want to). Rather just ignore and move on then; no need to have the 'final say'.

At times, you will need to 'supplicate' and be vulnerable. Women need to be comforted in such moments of confusion, tension and rationalization. You're the leader and gotta direct her emotional energy positively.

Taking responsibility and saying "look, I couldn't control myself and it's out of character but can you blame me? I would like to see you again but if you're not ready, that's fine."

Let the chips fall where they may.

Post: #21

There's some great game advice here. I'm really glad we've got such a great and supportive community of men here. I absolutely agree with what has been said above, and trust me OP I know that shit stings.

One thing that hasn't been said and that I think a lot of people miss: this girl just didn't like you enough. Period.

The reality of it sucks, but a lot of times we will be really feeling a chick and she's just not into us in the same way. At this point, throw all the game in the world out the window.

You think if that girl liked you she would have cared about the make out? Definitely not. Attraction is not a choice, and honestly most of the first date is about attraction. The comfort you build helps, but at least for the first few dates its not as important.

This girl wasn't feeling you, and didn't give you the green light to escalate during the venue, and to me, that's a huge red flag. You can throw away the make out at the end, because she already knew she wasn't going to see you again and just went along with it.

All and all, give yourself a pat on the back for this learning experience. Don't spend two hours with a girl on a first date, get in, figure out if you like her, figure out if she likes you (using the strategies and tactics listed above) and get out.

Don't sweat this chica either. There's a new bus every 15 minutes, and when you've got a girl that's all over you this chick won't even be a memory.

Post: #22

This exact scenario has happened to me a few times in my dating history. There's no definitive reason why she reacted the way she did, but the most likely reasons: the attraction wasn't there but she went along with it at the time, or that the kiss on the street activated some harsh ASD in a shy girl.

The best thing you can do in the future is not go for such a heavy makeout when you're not in the bedroom. Just a kiss at the end of the date so as not to relieve any sexual tension. This also keeps her wondering, and doesn't make you look too needy.

Saying that, I've had huge makeouts on the first date and seen them again, but I've never lost a girl just because I never went for one. So err on the side of caution.

Online is no cakewalk for most dudes. More misses than hits. Chin up.

Post: #23

Got a good one for you...

Last month I met a girl on Bumble. My type -- dark hair, crazy, and short with big tits. We go on a first date near her house. Tons of kino, etc. She is coy about my advances but it isn't outright rejection.

I decide to take her on a second date to the best steak house in Philly. I get her dressed to the 9s. (yes, this violates game tome, but wining and dining them goes a long way). Black dress, heels, yadda yadda. Make out, feel her up, good stuff but no bang.

Third date is a bar near my house that I have on lockdown. She hangs out with all my friends and at this point she's acting like my girlfriend. Cuddling, making out in public, holding hands, etc. I'm thinking this is a done deal. She loves my social circle.

I get her back to my house, get her naked, and she gives me very surprising LMR. Normally I run the three date method and never get any LMR -- when it's on, it's on. This perplexed me.

The next day she texts me along these lines: "Hank, I love spending time with you. You're so fun and interesting. I went back to your house for sex, but I just can't get past the short thing, I do still want to hang out, though."

I'm pretty cool about it. She then continues to text me to hang and I mostly ignore them. Then she gets pissed about me ignoring her texts. Tries to hang out a bunch of times and I'm pretty "meh".

Post: #24

^^^
Did you offer to wear heels during sex?

Post: #25

Sorry for you feeling that way OP but this too shall pass. You will be fine

It doesn't make sense and personally, it's ridiculous for men to say "give up" in general, especially with girls. You don't give up, you change strategy and adapt. That's what makes you a man.

Others have already given you great advice. I would go even further and says this date is a big win for you. Why? Let me explain.

1.

Quote:My latest date, yesterday evening, I was very pleased with. Overall, it represented an ascendancy of the level of quality I've been able to pull.

There you have it. You get to have some heavy tongue action with the hottest girl you've been able to pull. Pat yourself on the back.

2.

Quote:Hey, I just gotta come out and be honest with you because that is best. Dinner
was nice, but when we were at my car I was feeling awkward. I was kind of
going with the flow of things, because that's how I am, but I actually don't think
I should have kissed you or kept going because I wasn't really ready. And I
apologize, I am wierd for just letting things happen. I hate to be a downer now
but Im not feeling this and don't forsee a future, so sorry for the confusion.

You took a girl on dinner for first date? Please tell me it's not the case.

I'm notoriously harsh on betas so take it for what it is, but this is absolutely horrible move. Did you do this because she's higher quality than you usually pull? Do you usually do this? (if so, stop for christ's sake) Or it's something you do anyway and she just "tag along" and pays her own bill?

Assuming this was a first date dinner, then it's fucking doomed from before it even began. Which makes number 1 even a bigger win. Here's the script goes: Boy invites girl to dinner on his dime, being all gentlemanly, girls hugs goodnight and ghost or send some stupid text. Which is exactly what happens in your case, EXCEPT that you get a makeout. What more do you expect from this? I would say this is a great outcome for a very bad move. So cheer up.

3. Do you have a standard program? Not a PUA robotic programs but a strategy that is proven to work, easy to carry out and minimize losses. Stick with Tuth's first date bang program, almost like the gospel around these parts. In the beginning you follow it to the letter and you DO NOT make exceptions (that's for when you become fairly good at game)

In Tuth's first date bang program it states very clearly that:
-You dont take a girl to dinner. Drink only.
-You venue change, x2-3, progressively closer to your place.
-Break physical contact barrier during the date, but NO sexual escalation until you take her home.
-Make her a drink when you take her home.
-Escalate - freeze out - escalate - rinse and repeat.
-Bang

I suggest you stick to one of these God-given formula and tries it out with at least 20 girls before you even think of "giving up". Shit, you can even do Hank's thrice-damned 3 dates bang program. For all I know next week you gonna post in the +notch thread.