Post: #1

A bit of a Dear Abby story, but here goes:

(TL;DR - This is an extreme example of a pussy-first lifestyle and one can only hope it doesn't get any worse)

A good friend is having difficulty with his main girl. He's 38; she just turned 29. As long as I've known him, he's been very confident, fun and adept at game - a total natural. He's one of those guys who could never teach it because aside from a few elementary tips, he just couldn’t put into words how he goes about scoring poon. He just does what he does and things happen. I've never heard him utter a game principle or drop a red/blue pill reference even once.

Regardless, he's had this main girl for almost as long as I've known him - about five years. Though they live in different cities, he's frequently in her area for work and they often travel together. Even though not rich and with more than adequate skills, he does big baller game as much as he can (exotic trips, expensive restaurants, pricey hotels, etc.), though lately his professional situation can't support the bottle service lifestyle. Wherever he takes up work next, he probably won't be making what he thinks he'll be making, but he should be ok. For now, financially he's a bit of a wreck but you'd never know it at first glance - he puts on a good show.

Also as long as I can remember, he's been spinning plates behind her back through mostly social circle game supplemented by dating apps. Most of his pulls are attractive, but there's been a few 5s and below here and there for sustainment sex. What I didn't realize until recently that he's been in and out of the swinging scene. I'd always thought the swinger crowd consisted of sorry looking middle aged flabby married couples getting together in a Motel Six over cheesy music and cheap wine. I guess now it's "polyamorous" coastal types in their thirties, but what do I know - not my thing.

For the longest time he kept telling everyone in his social circle that he and his girl were in an open relationship, though privately, she told her friends that she wasn't cool with the idea and probably didn't know how open her relationship really was. At less than ten lifetime sex partners (she was claiming just 4 by her mid twenties, FWIW), she wasn't the most sexually experienced American girl in the world. Supposedly she's also insecure about being with a guy who is very sexually experienced and now she's a bit FOMO (fear of missing out) on the carousel riding.

In response he's encouraged her to go out and experiment with different dudes, so long as he's kept apprised of the who & when. I can't even begin to understand why any guy would want to be a cuckold, especially a natural with plenty of options. It's bad enough to keep taking infidelity from her if she cheats, but quite another to encourage this behavior in the first place.

Regardless, not long thereafter she fucked a couple of guys, one of them from work She told him, and he was a-ok with that - almost eager by the sounds of it. Then he suspected she went out and fucked some other dude without telling him. He saw this as a trust issue (yeah, I know - everyone else would see it as WTF are you doing encouraging her to bang other dudes, but I digress)

Figuring out her phone password, he found message details of an "unreported" fuck, confronted her and got pissed, throwing a tantrum and breaking some shit in the process. They've since broken up but he claims they're trying to get back together.

After that, she went from loyal GF to giving him an ultimatum: move to her city permanently, find a job and then they can start to put things back together. Incredibly, he's moving to an apartment down the street from her. And yeah, he's still spinning plates, though not as high quality as usual. She knows about them, but he says it's ok since he's single - not sure how all that figures into the getting back together part.

In the middle of this he's got a couple of dubious, very gay close friends too. I couldn't help thinking of Michael Fassbender's character in Shame when I stopped to notice what looks like sex addiction coupled with severe codependency going way off the rails. He has a therapist, one he saw years ago but recently started seeing again. Unfortunately as you might expect she's female and likely giving him the worst possible advice from a counseling industry already littered with blue pill viewpoints and a destructive, anti-male vibe.

To be sure, it's a convoluted and very weird tale, but I'm just trying to make sense of it all. He's a good friend but he's on a completely different planet lately. I don't know how common guys like this are since nowadays a combination of blue pill, white knight and/or incel seems to be everywhere.

I'm wondering if anyone else knows anyone like this - good with game but still fucking/cucking their life up with ever escalating sexual habits. Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

Post: #2

Looks like being good with game was a temporary accident. Is he a hard 8 or higher?

Post: #3

Inasmuch as this guy is your good friend, it is amazing how in many cases we never truly know those we associate with or care about the most. I've reconnected with a few people recently in Europe who fit that bill.

Maybe your friend was who he said he was all along, but I'm willing to bet at least half of guys in his situation were leading everyone - including and most of all themselves - along. Perhaps he was 60% of the guy he was acting like, yet that still reveals a pretty substantial gap.

I know many an Instagram hoe who in real life is about as lonely and desperate as your average male incel. Meet them in a supermarket without make-up or filters (and 100 opportunities to retake the shot) and with acne and a slight double-chin, and the illusions are gone. The same is becoming true of men who opine strongly online but fall away in real life. Plus, if you see a good friend for, on average, three hours a week, it's perfectly conceivable and even likely that the "them" they present for those hours is going to be substantially different from "them" that exists without filters.

The modern world, modern technology and modern expectations have both allowed and encouraged/forced people to play according to rules that create a dichotomy between their public and private personas.

Every mouse can become a tiger at times and every tiger has his mouse moments. Nevertheless, your friend might have been deluding himself, not just you.

I hasten to say this is a possibility. Perhaps he is a genuine case of once womanizing self-implosion.

Post: #4

I don't see it as being a willing cuckold if he has established the relationship as an open one from the get go.

As a player, he has probably not only smashed several wives, fiancees and girlfriends of other men, but most likely has witnessed first hand how they go back to those men and behave like nothing happened.

The letting her do what she wants game seems to be an method of self preservation of the ego and act of anti-cucking. She can't cuck you if the relationship was open in first place right?

That's what I've filtered out from your post. Hope I'm right but could be wrong.

Post: #5

(08-14-2018 07:25 PM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  In the middle of this he's got a couple of dubious, very gay close friends too.

Least surprising sentence in the entire narrative. Hypersexual men who have great ease at getting pussy and are strongly drawn to the swinging/swapping world are often (not always) fundamentally gay/bisexual, whether this is actually practiced or merely suppressed and yearned for. Although one can't be sure, that is quite possibly the case here.

Post: #6

(08-14-2018 07:57 PM)Roosh Wrote:  Looks like being good with game was a temporary accident. Is he a hard 8 or higher?

Yeah, pretty much. White guy, doesn't lift that I know of, but not fat either. Just under 6' tall and still has all his hair. Dresses appropriately for the situation and I've never seen him in sports jerseys, ball caps or any other kind of prole gear. His game is totally natural but not sure if I'd call it accidental - he isn't a situational alpha at all; does well in many environments.

(08-14-2018 08:25 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  Least surprising sentence in the entire narrative. Hypersexual men who have great ease at getting pussy and are strongly drawn to the swinging/swapping world are often (not always) fundamentally gay/bisexual, whether this is actually practiced or merely suppressed and yearned for. Although one can't be sure, that is quite possibly the case here.

That definitely crossed my mind. Especially when I met one of his gay friends - who also has a girlfriend, one who is aware he's gay (bisexual, whatever) and doesn't care. You read that right. I would hate to be her next boyfriend and not know she was banging some gay guy with who knows what exponential STD risk factor.

(08-14-2018 08:10 PM)david.garrett84 Wrote:  Inasmuch as this guy is your good friend, it is amazing how in many cases we never truly know those we associate with or care about the most. I've reconnected with a few people recently in Europe who fit that bill.

Maybe your friend was who he said he was all along, but I'm willing to bet at least half of guys in his situation were leading everyone - including and most of all themselves - along. Perhaps he was 60% of the guy he was acting like, yet that still reveals a pretty substantial gap.

Culturally, I expected this persona to surface in Western Europe, but now it's probably occurring more frequently in all first world countries.

I thought I knew him pretty well, and I did except for the swinging part, which admittedly is a big blind side. One thing I've noticed is his constant need for stimulation and attention via messaging, instagram, dating apps, whatever else in addition to the actual chase and conquest of new poon. If there are even a few people around that he barely knows it's very difficult to get much more than a superficial conversation going - it's all about big balling and showing off.

There's also a thrill he seems get from getting away with cheating. He's told me some of the epic levels of gaslighting he's pulled. Maybe it's all just a tragic combination of narcissism and codependency run amok, I don't know.

(08-14-2018 08:25 PM)Not a Second Hander Wrote:  As a player, he has probably not only smashed several wives, fiancees and girlfriends of other men, but most likely has witnessed first hand how they go back to those men and behave like nothing happened.

I've done that too, more times than I want to admit. But while it did teach me an incredible amount about the true nature of women - even the outwardly "good" ones - not for a moment did it ever make me want to become a cuck.

Thanks all for the perspectives though. The good news is if you're in this forum you're not the kind of guy who'd likely let this happen to you.

Post: #7

OP I would say you have the term "cuckold" not in use properly, your buddy was trying .. and failed .. to maintain a open relationship, not Cucked. If he was "Cucked" his girl would be fucking dudes and not fucking him and he would know about it, or he would watch his girl get fucked by other dudes.

Post: #8

This is a pretty common level of dysfunction that a lot of "players" actually have going on in their lives. But in this case, his constant need to front (bottle service when he can't afford it, bragging) and lack of attention to his finances at 38 are just as big problems as his girl problems.

Post: #9

(08-14-2018 09:06 PM)kosko Wrote:  OP I would say you have the term "cuckold" not in use properly, your buddy was trying .. and failed .. to maintain a open relationship, not Cucked. If he was "Cucked" his girl would be fucking dudes and not fucking him and he would know about it, or he would watch his girl get fucked by other dudes.

Not necessarily - apparently it varies, and there is such a thing as an "alpha" cuckold. Sounds a lot like his situation:

Quote:Cuckold
A man who willingly encourages his wife to sleep with other people because it brings him pleasure. Cuckolds exist on a spectrum between two extremes. One on end is the masochistic cuckold who enjoys humiliations, degradation, and other demeaning activities at the hands of his wife and her lover. The alpha cuckold lies at the opposite end of the spectrum and does not enjoy any form of humiliation and often has a direct say in who his wife sleeps with and when.

Post: #10

I was gonna say what my man the lizard of oz did, although,not nearly as eloquently.

This guy is gay and doesn't know what's what. It's why,he's so emotional over the girl, and gas to fuck everything female he can.

The only other thing I can imagine is he got syphilis and he went crazy.

And yes, swingers parties are mostly old people in a motel 6 by the airport.

Aloha!

Post: #11

There is a threshold of degeneration coupled with modern progressive indoctrination - when you cross that, then you are brainwashed enough to accept all the stupid "she can have pleasure like me" dogma.

Being good with women especially for a good-looking man comes easily enough - Game gets quickly responded by women.

Sounds to me that he never became really Red Pill, never went to conservative thinking, also his Game was heavily aided by his looks. The rest is done by our liberal thinking - if he retained that, then this behavior is possible without him being gay. Late stage Roman degeneracy just manifested.

And you explained everything in your post:

1) Good-looking guy who had no idea of expanse of Red Pill - just knew how to get laid
2) Naturally good with women - usually good-looking
3) Sucked up all the liberal lifestyle, the thinking that men and women are identical - she fucking around on him would be the same as him fucking around

Blue Pill Alpha fits more the bill of him. No surprise. It's a bit comparable to Mystery who learned Game, but had zero understanding of the Red Pill and Game in his time. He almost killed himself over oneitis he had over a girl.

That is why men need to get not only Game, but the full Red Pill (Rational Male), then maybe some minor social order aspects in terms of what is necessary to create a stable relationship. No man with that knowledge would tell his girl to start fucking around for pleasure.

Post: #12

Sounds like yet another natural player succumbing to massive oneitis. Very common problem with naturals. Running with gay dudes is suspect as well, but even gay dudes have their own naturals that wind up with less value SMV'd males that ruin their lives and they refuse to leave them.

Post: #13

(08-14-2018 09:15 PM)RawGod Wrote:  This is a pretty common level of dysfunction that a lot of "players" actually have going on in their lives. But in this case, his constant need to front (bottle service when he can't afford it, bragging) and lack of attention to his finances at 38 are just as big problems as his girl problems.

You know what I'm going to say about this guy. Nonetheless, let's do the bingo:

- Low emotional connection or inability to make emotional connection with partners, which is partly why he's a natural at no-strings-attached sex
- Bottle service when he can't afford it, i.e. he is looking to maintain a certain image, i.e.e. it is about getting others to accept his brand
- Sleeps around on his partner, but loses his shit when she sleeps around without his permission. When she does so, she is saying to him: I have an existence independent of yours, i.e. I exist without you. i.e.e.: I am not just supporting cast, and you are not the main character
- Sex addiction, which is the get-out catchall we use to miss something else that describes what's happening with the behaviour:

Quote:One common explanation sex addicts offer is that it is the novelty that they crave, and when enough people with pathology agree on something you can pretty much guarantee that that agreement is part of the pathology, i.e. an unconscious defense. Sorry artists, broken people aren't given greater insight as a consolation prize. The novelty is in fact trivial: yes, different partners, but the same kinds of sex, with the same kinds of people, in the same places, in the same ways, bolstered by the same kinds of porn. Repetition compulsion masquerading as novelty seeking. "You don't understand," says the analogous alcoholic, "I'm always looking for new drinks."

The important point is that in sex addiction the addict is not satisfied by the sex he just had because he is self-consciously aware that something unidentified is missing, and that lack leaves the orgasmer with an abundance of disgust and shame. Just went from being a made up disease to a typical Friday night. Right ladies?

This is something the movie does depict very accurately: after Brandon has some sex, he then immediately has some other kind of sex. This isn't an overactive sex drive, it is trying to get the sex right.

Truthfully, I doubt your friend has a sex addiction. His problem is narcissism, and he's not the only one. This doesn't make him into a bad person, it just makes him the sort of guy who sees everyone as ... well, not as important as he is.

Reread TLP's article on Shame and you'll see the distinctions.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #14

Him going to swinger clubs also started this fetish. He probably met a few attractive couples who were into all of this "you fuck my wife I fuck yours". What he misses is that the swinger club culture goes wrong constantly - the people fuck around on each other, meet up later, women fall in love - at least when it's with couples who have some sexual market value left. That is why most of the international hardcore swingers are either, fat, ugly or at the very least old - unattractive 50+ year old men and 45+ year old women. Then they go through it in a stable way - because they are settled in their old life and their market value is so fucking low that it does not matter.

There are some odd looks-based clubs out there, but any man going in there with his partner or wife is insane. I understand it even going there with a pretend-wife-escort, then go and fuck all the wives of the cucks - there is a kick about it and I even considered doing that myself. But I am not going to go in there with my fucking girl!

He is a victim of the Blue Pill and modern conditioning - you need more than Game knowledge in our times. Increasingly the Red Pill is a wall against the world's influence.

Post: #15

Quote:I understand it even going there with a pretend-wife-escort, then go and fuck all the wives of the cucks

Brilliant idea.

Post: #16

The title of this thread is misleading

Post: #17

(08-14-2018 09:21 PM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  Not necessarily - apparently it varies, and there is such a thing as an "alpha" cuckold.

This sounds like hilarious material for one of those "virgin/alpha" memes, and also a lot of rationalization for what used to be called stag/vixen.

To the OP's question, I'm not going to try to psychoanalyze some dude's sex life. We don't know what's really going on and everything fun can be branded "hypersexual"/sex addiction. Maybe he's just attracted to swinging because he likes blasting loads on a variety of low-maintenance women and frumpy married suburban moms of two are an easy target who don't keep texting when it's over.

Where it goes off the rails is here:

Quote:After that, she went from loyal GF to giving him an ultimatum: move to her city permanently, find a job and then they can start to put things back together. Incredibly, he's moving to an apartment down the street from her. And yeah, he's still spinning plates, though not as high quality as usual. She knows about them, but he says it's ok since he's single - not sure how all that figures into the getting back together part.

Some people do open relationships. Whatever.

There have been plates who tried to shit test me with stories about who else they were seeing, and I didn't care because I didn't care. They weren't important women. If they tried to give me an ultimatum, they'd have gotten laughed at and shown the door ("Good talk, fun night, LOL. Here, have a tiny water bottle for your walk home."), and they knew that, so they didn't try it.

Again, whatever.

A whole bunch of shit went wrong here for it to get to the point that he thinks they are both "single" but she's somehow got control of his lifestyle. I agree that he sounds co-dependent. I'm wondering if she wasn't running some intense girl game on him all along. Is he pumping a bunch of money he doesn't have into her lifestyle while she ignores his other plates? It occurs to me that he already lost the frame game when he indicated that he gave a shit what she does at all. Snooping on her phone, demanding that she disclose her "unreported" fucks, he clearly cares more than she does.

Post: #18

It's not that surprising. Some people are just thrill seeking degenerates...and although that nature may not be immediately apparent the end result is always the same: a pattern of thinking more and more extreme thrills and risky behavior just to keep those sweet dopamine hits coming. From a brain chemistry perspective it's identical to the way alcoholics need to drink ever more heavily to feel sated.

Post: #19

He needs to look for a wife.

Post: #20

(08-15-2018 01:14 PM)MrLemon Wrote:  He needs to look for a wife.

That's the last thing he needs right now.

You think his swinging and rotating plates won't be an issue in a marriage?

The worst thing he could do is get married.

He needs to work on himself and his inner game.

Naturals have many flaws, and they need to learn a solid game foundation that works for them that helps them with their everyday lives.

Some guys are far beyond saving, who knows if this guy is or isn't, I'm leaning towards a lost cause.



The biggest factor with him and this girl is DISTANCE these two are in different cities. He even gave into her demands of moving closer.

If a woman ever asks for an open relationship, immediately end the relationship right then and there.

Because she's more than likely already fucking on the side, and she's also been poisoned with the whole young wild free, eat pray and love fantasy.



This guy should of never been in a relationship in the first place and just rotated plates or just dated a few girls that he's interested in.

An open relationship always ends in disaster and it's usually the worst for the man.

Being a swinger doesn't come with it's own major issues.

Hell even having your girl offer a threesome comes with it's hang ups eventually.


Other than a one night stand in a threesome, bringing another partner or partners will become a problem in a relationship.

Post: #21

Agreed - the last thing he needs is a wife. He needs the Red Pill. If he is your best buddy, then send him the books by Rollo - or the audio book which he can listen to in his car.

He does not need Game obviously - he needs something that might wake him up. Most Naturals actually take to the Red Pill easily enough since they understand women (or at lest part of what makes women tick), but this guy obviously is lost somewhere.

Post: #22

(08-15-2018 08:53 AM)Jetset Wrote:  Is he pumping a bunch of money he doesn't have into her lifestyle while she ignores his other plates? It occurs to me that he already lost the frame game when he indicated that he gave a shit what she does at all. Snooping on her phone, demanding that she disclose her "unreported" fucks, he clearly cares more than she does.

He's not blowing a ton of money on her other than including her in all of his big balling travel/bottle service adventures, which to a limited extent involve work (professional conferences) and the related social circle. That's an astute observation by you and an earlier poster about him snooping - it really is all about him being the star of the show and at this point caring more than she does.

It's too bad, because until relatively recently there was no doubt she worshipped the ground he walked on. By now she's had just about enough.

(08-15-2018 01:32 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

(08-15-2018 01:14 PM)MrLemon Wrote:  He needs to look for a wife.

That's the last thing he needs right now.

You think his swinging and rotating plates won't be an issue in a marriage?

The worst thing he could do is get married.

He needs to work on himself and his inner game.

Naturals have many flaws, and they need to learn a solid game foundation that works for them that helps them with their everyday lives.

Some guys are far beyond saving, who knows if this guy is or isn't, I'm leaning towards a lost cause.



The biggest factor with him and this girl is DISTANCE these two are in different cities. He even gave into her demands of moving closer.

If a woman ever asks for an open relationship, immediately end the relationship right then and there.

Because she's more than likely already fucking on the side, and she's also been poisoned with the whole young wild free, eat pray and love fantasy.

I think this is true too - he's had suspicions about her for a couple of years when he saw (via phone snooping after she passed out with the screen unlocked) her Uber trips to parts of the city where neither one of them have friends or reasons to go.

He was able to work the distance thing pretty well, either he was in her city or she was in his, or they travelled together. Like most women in an LTR, she reasonably assumed it was going somewhere. I think she was expecting a ring and now that it's on the rocks he's trying to have his cake and eat it too - spin plates while keeping up the illusion that one day she'll get that ring. Alas, at this point I think she's so jaded that even if they do tie the knot it won't last long.

(08-15-2018 01:42 PM)Simeon_Strangelight Wrote:  Agreed - the last thing he needs is a wife. He needs the Red Pill. If he is your best buddy, then send him the books by Rollo - or the audio book which he can listen to in his car.

If I thought he would ever read anything, I'd have tried that, but he's got a combination of short attention span and not a very deep personality. Inner game isn't something he'd stop to think about for a moment. I don't think he even watches a lot of TV or movies, and I've never heard him talk about any book, much less something cerebral like Rollo. That takes too much time away from setting up the next bang, I reckon.

Casual readers, take note - this is a perfect example of how the pussy-first approach kills other opportunities to learn and grow elsewhere in life.

He may one day be receptive to the Rational Male concepts and insights, but only after the inevitable and permanent break up with this girl. Sometimes it just takes falling off the horse before you realize you can't ride right.

Post: #23

I have an old high school chum that fits the description pretty well. Got lots of pussy in high school, smooth talker, good-looking chap, etc. But at the end of the day, he was not very bright. His lack of intellectualism/barbarianism eventually took its toll...the liberal lifestyle came-a-calling and easily replaced what was never there.

Long story short, now he has an "open marriage". Other dudes pound his wife at swinger parties, but he's twisted it into an Alpha accomplishment. I felt sorry for him when I last saw him...could have probably banged his wife if I stayed around longer.

Post: #24

delete

Post: #25

I was just reading AC and thought this might apply here...

https://www.anonymousconservative.com/bl...-dopamine/

Quote:Charlie Sheen, Gays, Transexuals, and Dopamine
Posted on January 3, 2016 by Anonymous Conservative

You knew there was more going on when you heard he caught AIDS:

Sex maniac Charlie Sheen not only bedded porn stars, groupies, call girls and strippers — he also slept with transsexuals and men!

Multiple sources have informed RadarOnline.com the 50-year-old television star — who admitted he was HIV positive in a bombshell interview on Tuesday morning — regularly forked out tens of thousands of dollars to sleep with sex swap escorts and gay lovers.

There was an anecdotal case highlighted in the book of a heterosexual man with a family who was prescribed a dopamine agonist for Parkinson’s symptoms. Once he was hopped up on synthetic dopamine, the father then went on a gay sex binge which he said he couldn’t control, until he went off the medication and became heterosexual again.

Sexual stimulation requires a mild level of amygdala stimulation. Too little is what you have between a husband and wife who have been married for decades, and for whom sexual activity is totally routine. Too much is what you have when a Grizzly Bear smells the deer hormones you put out by your tree stand, decides he feels a little randy, and, well, you just happen to be in the wrong place at the right time for the bear.

My own theory is, when you are hopped up on dopamine, you need more amygdala stimulation than you would normally need, to overcome the amygdala-quieting effects of the dopamine and get into that sweet spot where sexual drive arises. Hence you begin to look for more than the simple feminine partner and illicit getaway. Sexual conditions which otherwise would over-stimulate the amygdala and shut off sexual stimulation normally, such as extreme disgust, suddenly place the amygdala stimulation in that middle-ground where things activate the amygdala just enough to trigger desire. Dopamine deadening effects, plus amygdala over-stimulation all equals out to normal amygdala activation.

So if you are Charlie Sheen, and you’ve just polished off that fifteenth dopamine-receptor-agonizing crack rock in five minutes, suddenly that hot porn star you just met looks to your amygdala kind of like the wife you’ve been married to for forty years, and that gross tranny with a third penis in the middle of his forehead, looks kind of like the hottest girl you’ve ever seen. Eventually, it might even take the grossest thing of all, ie regular men, to turn you on.

There is probably a structural thing underlying it, most likely relating in many cases to DRD4 7r. These Sheen-types are the extreme r-overshoots, so I’m sure not every person has the wiring to make this transition, even overloaded on crack and porn stars. But it may have some effect farther from the margins. As an example, a guy I knew years back who had a history of cocaine use liked girls with lots of tattoos (as in full sleeves and stockings), while I find them highly off-putting. I also find it interesting that the girls I’ve known with lots of tattoos struck me as more r, and they’ve altered their bodies in such a way as to appeal to men who themselves are already leaning toward a more r-mating preference. It is almost as if they are both designed to keep their rabbity bloodlines more pure.

I’ve sometimes wondered if I won the powerball, landed in Ibiza on a private jet, and then spent a year overloading on dopamine from fine food, beautiful environs, drugs, women, and ease, whether I would suddenly find girls with tattoo sleeves attractive, and prefer a government that controlled everyone so I would never have to face them myself.

Somehow I doubt it, though I’ll bet I would enjoy my Apocalypse a little bit weirder.