Post: #1

I've been thinking about the first part of the 3 Signs You Won’t Get Married Before 35 post. Sure, maintaining female friendships is a great way to expand your social circle and increase your access to women. But that just falls under the same category of work you do to fuck women. But what about looking for an actual friendship?

Even as a game-less guy, I have avoided one-sided friendships with women most of my life. I am happy to say that I have never been an orbiter. At the same time, I have had only one lasting friendship with a woman, although it has not been nearly as close or deep as my friendships with men. It's very easy to conclude that women are incapable of forming the type of emotional bonds that men can form.



At the same time, I'm at the tail end of what I would say is a failed experiment in friendship with women. I had just returned to college and was picking up some summer classes when I met the girl. She was cute, a little witty, and seemingly not beholden to the addiction of social media. Obviously, I go for it, get her number and make a move. Turns out she's a lesbian, oh well.

To my surprise, after I stop communicating with her she reaches out to me. She invites me over, introduces me to her girlfriend and their other lesbian roommate. I spend some time chatting with them about bullshit and I realize that I actually enjoyed my time there. I try to pursue this friendship and it is surprisingly fun. I don't supplicate to her, but I do the same kind things I would do for my male friends. I hosted a dinner party, I brought them to the farmers market with me, and we went out to see a movie. All three of the girls were very receptive and warm, I actually enjoyed providing for them and receiving gratitude and reciprocity without any sexual tension.

Unfortunately, for some unknown reason, the couple has had a falling out with the roommate, and I recognize the signs of the slow ghosting from all three: less enthusiastic to talk to me, more flaking, etc.



This has led me to think about the general tone that it seems Roosh has toward the idea of marriage, or at least a committed relationship. Although I am new to this site, I certainly see a tone of regret at being unable to find for himself a woman that is worth his time as more than a sexual conquest. I think I understand where he's coming from. I'm a 28 year old virgin and sex is still a secondary goal to my learning of game. I really just want companionship. But as I have learned more about what women really are, I wonder to myself if this is an artifact of the Disney propaganda of true love that I have been unable to fully dismiss.

Given that minor glimpse of contentment I felt in what I knew was a purely nonsexual relationship, I wonder if there is some hope. This is something I am going to keep in the back of my mind. It's part of many men's natures to be a provider. I have started to reassess what my expectations of friendship are when it comes to women. Rather than seeing it as the brotherhood between men, I see it as me trading my abilities and resources for warmth and respect. As long as I don't allow myself to become so attached that I cannot walk away when she demonstrates that she is not worth my time.

I truly do enjoy that feeling of providing for someone beneath me. What are your thoughts about this?



P.S. - This story that was linked brought a tear to my eye.

Post: #2

Men and women CANNOT be friend for the most part because of biology 101.

We're designed to breed with the opposite sex.

Now there are a few exceptions for friends, such as your buddies girlfriend or wives.

Maybe an old home girl you grew up with as a child - which is rare in itself.

The only women in my life are ones I fuck and date or my boys are dating or married with kids to them.

Obviously those lines I'd NEVER cross because I know where my loyalty lies, to my brothers.

(08-28-2018 01:31 PM)Professor When Wrote:  This has led me to think about the general tone that it seems Roosh has toward the idea of marriage, or at least a committed relationship. Although I am new to this site, I certainly see a tone of regret at being unable to find for himself a woman that is worth his time as more than a sexual conquest. I think I understand where he's coming from. I'm a 28 year old virgin and sex is still a secondary goal to my learning of game.

No, no you don't know where he's coming from, you have no clue where he's coming from.

You're a virgin, who hasn't had sex, fallen in love, had a broke heart, broke hearts, or had a rotation of girls in a roster.

You can't say you know how he feels, because you haven't even began the walk in his shoes.

Sex can't be a secondary goal to learn game.

You've got it wrong, you need to learn game to have sex with women which opens pandoras box.

Quote:I really just want companionship. But as I have learned more about what women really are, I wonder to myself if this is an artifact of the Disney propaganda of true love that I have been unable to fully dismiss.

Stop trying to seek companionship with women, you have to understand why there's a brotherhood you can seek support and structure in, and whereas women are whole different thing and there's a reason we have sex and reproduce with them.

The "true love" "the one" "soulmate" I think are all bullshit terms.

I think love is real, BUT it takes game, frame, and leadership for it to work.

A woman chases you, wants to lock you down, have your kids etc.

This woman should complement your life NOT complete your life.

A woman isn't the end all be all cure for something missing in your life, she's an added bonus to the wonderful life you already SHOULD be having.

Quote:Given that minor glimpse of contentment I felt in what I knew was a purely nonsexual relationship, I wonder if there is some hope. This is something I am going to keep in the back of my mind. It's part of many men's natures to be a provider. I have started to reassess what my expectations of friendship are when it comes to women. Rather than seeing it as the brotherhood between men, I see it as me trading my abilities and resources for warmth and respect. As long as I don't allow myself to become so attached that I cannot walk away when she demonstrates that she is not worth my time.

I truly do enjoy that feeling of providing for someone beneath me. What are your thoughts about this?

You were just an orbiter hanging out with these girls, you were these girls validation and affirmation they can still get men.

You deserve better than just friendship with women, but here's the hard part - learning how to be good with women and having sex with them.

You should have ZERO expectation of friendship with women you're interested in, they should know that you're interested in them in an attracted sexual way, and they should know you won't see it any different and aren't into friends.

You shouldn't be a provider in any shape or form until she makes it known she wants to be yours, even then, she should be taking care of you and proving for you and then you can return in kind.

Post: #3

(08-28-2018 01:31 PM)Professor When Wrote:  I really just want companionship. But as I have learned more about what women really are, I wonder to myself if this is an artifact of the Disney propaganda of true love that I have been unable to fully dismiss.

That's exactly what it is.

I think we all had moments when we were young thinking that we wanted companionship from a woman, I think it's a type of needy thinking. Instead you should be wanting to be someone who OTHER people want to be with, not just thinking I want to be with someone. It's women who look for someone better than them.

Kaotic explained it well, you will continue to misunderstand what Roosh is saying or thinking until you get some experience with women.

Post: #4

I never really know men who actually have real female friends.

Female acquaintances because of school or work? Sure but not actual legit friends. Most male and female "friends", if they were at each other's apartment and sitting on a couch, would probably bang it out unless one of them was gay or horrendously ugly.

Post: #5

I have a platonic female friend...

she's ugly and 37 years old. Not a hambeast, but ugly enough that I would never want to bone her and my targets are usually around 20 years younger.

and I don't trust her as much as my male friends.

Post: #6

(08-28-2018 02:02 PM)kaotic Wrote:  you need to learn game to have sex with women which opens pandoras box.

I'm happy to open any woman's box.

Post: #7

I've had good homegirls that I met after college, that I never tried to bang, even if they were attractive. They were usually like one of the guys. I could also count on them for a place to crash if I was in their city (with or without a girlfriend), and vice versa. They take turns buying rounds at the bar. They've made good wingwomen and I've banged some of their friends too.

Women as friends were also capable let of the biggest letddowns. In my experience, more so than fellow men.

Myy closest of friendships were always other men. Any person who has a best friend from the opposite sex is of suspect.

Post: #8

OP. Have you had your T levels checked?

Not meant disparagingly...I just sense a low sex drive from your post for someone of the age you state to be...so just a suggestion

Post: #9

Fuck no

If you're not actively gaming a chick, she's gaming you. It's a zero sum game with these ho's.

Post: #10

I've had many female friends, most of whom I was friend zoned by. Women have this weird notion of friendship where they use their friends. Platonic female friends will use you as their emotional tampoon, their Gauge of their whoredom, or for money/rides and stuff. They will treat you like a boyfriend but without all the benefits.

Post: #11

I wrote about this many moons ago:

http://www.returnofkings.com/24101/its-i...be-friends

Post: #12

(08-28-2018 03:26 PM)General Stalin Wrote:  I wrote about this many moons ago:

http://www.returnofkings.com/24101/its-i...be-friends

Dang that was you! one of the OG reads from return of kings

Post: #13

I have several older, close female friends. They aren't of my generation, and there's no romantic interest there on either side. It works because they have cool stories, a maternal instinct for their kids/grandkids and have artistic or other talents that cross-sect with my interests. I'd encourage men not to have female friends and become a beta male orbiter around women their own age. If you like her, go after her and make it happen. But if you're just hanging around hoping one day she'll decide you're her Prince Charming, that's not going to happen. In short, you can have female friends, even close female friends, but it works best with women of different age generation between you.

Post: #14

(08-28-2018 02:02 PM)kaotic Wrote:  No, no you don't know where he's coming from, you have no clue where he's coming from.

You're a virgin, who hasn't had sex, fallen in love, had a broke heart, broke hearts, or had a rotation of girls in a roster.

You can't say you know how he feels, because you haven't even began the walk in his shoes.

Sex can't be a secondary goal to learn game.

You've got it wrong, you need to learn game to have sex with women which opens pandoras box.

Hold on now. I didn't claim to have lived his life or even want the same thing as him. However, I understand with stark clarity knowing exactly what you want and having no idea how to get it.

Contrast that with what I am trying to learn here. I know what I need to do to get laid. That also means that I can identify where I need to improve and understand that I do not have the skill to do so yet.

Here's something I've only ever shared anonymously on the internet. No one that knows me in real life is aware of this. I once attempted suicide. (no, it had nothing to do with women) There was no note, this was not something decided in the heat of the moment. It was not a plea for attention. I woke up the next morning in a pile of vomit and pills, cleaned myself up, and decided to get my shit together.

Despondency. That is what I understand.

Quote:Stop trying to seek companionship with women, you have to understand why there's a brotherhood you can seek support and structure in, and whereas women are whole different thing and there's a reason we have sex and reproduce with them.

The "true love" "the one" "soulmate" I think are all bullshit terms.

I think love is real, BUT it takes game, frame, and leadership for it to work.

A woman chases you, wants to lock you down, have your kids etc.

This woman should complement your life NOT complete your life.

A woman isn't the end all be all cure for something missing in your life, she's an added bonus to the wonderful life you already SHOULD be having.

I'm sure you are completely right in this. Finding a woman is the next step in my attempts to recreate myself.

Quote:You were just an orbiter hanging out with these girls, you were these girls validation and affirmation they can still get men.

You deserve better than just friendship with women, but here's the hard part - learning how to be good with women and having sex with them.

You should have ZERO expectation of friendship with women you're interested in, they should know that you're interested in them in an attracted sexual way, and they should know you won't see it any different and aren't into friends.

You shouldn't be a provider in any shape or form until she makes it known she wants to be yours, even then, she should be taking care of you and proving for you and then you can return in kind.

This is disingenuous. Seeing it this way, you could call any gaming attempt that doesn't end in a lay to be the same thing. I enjoyed myself at the time and when I saw that I was no longer getting what I wanted, I bailed. Maybe we have a different definition of orbiter. I apreciate that this comes from a place of advisement, but as least in this capacity I recognize that I do not do this out of obligation.

(08-28-2018 03:06 PM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  OP. Have you had your T levels checked?

Not meant disparagingly...I just sense a low sex drive from your post for someone of the age you state to be...so just a suggestion

Actually, I was hypoandrogenic. After medication my T levels are average. My endocrinologist and I are planning a course of T supplements beginning next year. Trust me, I know this is a huge factor. In a way, low sex drive is a blessing and a curse. I don't worship pussy, but I don't have a huge drive to go out and get it, either.

(08-28-2018 03:52 PM)John Michael Kane Wrote:  If you like her, go after her and make it happen. But if you're just hanging around hoping one day she'll decide you're her Prince Charming, that's not going to happen.

I did not enter into it hoping for more. While I certainly would have accepted it if she threw herself at me, I truly do not believe that was my motivation.

Post: #15

(08-28-2018 03:23 PM)Donfitz007 Wrote:  I've had many female friends, most of whom I was friend zoned by. Women have this weird notion of friendship where they use their friends. Platonic female friends will use you as their emotional tampoon, their Gauge of their whoredom, or for money/rides and stuff. They will treat you like a boyfriend but without all the benefits.

Because of thirst. If the situation was reversed most guys would take gifts and freebies from women all day. I mean I had it a bunch of years ago but women experience that on a weekly or even daily basis. There's women on the internet who brag about never having to use their bank cards because beta orbiters buy everything for them and even pay their rent (without having to return sex).

Post: #16

Quote:Here's something I've only ever shared anonymously on the internet. No one that knows me in real life is aware of this. I once attempted suicide. (no, it had nothing to do with women) There was no note, this was not something decided in the heat of the moment. It was not a plea for attention. I woke up the next morning in a pile of vomit and pills, cleaned myself up, and decided to get my shit together.

Despondency. That is what I understand.

I don't think you understand your own pathos as well as you think you do, because it absolutely had to do with women.

We're trying to help you, not hurt you, but 28 year old virgins are absolutely NOT normal, and you're not even capable of knowing if it was about women or not until you've known how you felt in a satisfied relationship with one.

Right now, you're an outlier that is under pressures you don't even understand from your isolation. In previous eras, you wouldn't even be here, you would have already died in your attempt to prove yourself worthy to mate. We're a lot more civilized now, and can keep our walking wounded alive longer, but never doubt that you're crippled by something until you've felt what it is to walk.

In a loving relationship you would have felt all the bonds you felt from your lesbian friends, only magnified, and with the addition of being in the middle of that lesbian love sandwich instead of observing it. That's what you're meant to strive for, not to be an orbiter in denial.


On the plus side, you're in the right place to learn to reclaim your manhood. These guys will help you, but the beginning is going to be tough love, and it's going to hurt.,

Post: #17

I have a very good platonic female Friend from college. I think she's an exception to the rule as she's been very kind to me and has helped me out in times of struggle. Now that I'm into the manosphere I think there's nothing wrong with having one or two platonic relationships with women. As long as they are smart and overall quality people.

However, by listening to her stories she's helped me to confirm most of the theories from this forum on the real nature of women. AWALT.

Also her dating advice was always bad and I know I can't even trust her my knowledge on game or anything. Furthermore, I don't know if a wingwoman is such a thing, she's cockblocked me a couple of times at bars.

Overall I think platonic friendships with women are not fullfilling, but there's nothing wrong with having one or two.

Post: #18

Who says friendship has to be platonic?

It’s chill to have girl friends and home girls who you kick it with.

It’s called being a well adjusted human.

Realize that is a bit lacking here sometimes but y’all should try it some time, it’s pretty dope.

I mean occasionally you end up a few lines or Tequilla shots in and hook up on a crazy night but then you laugh it off the next morning and keep it pushing. Eventually they start throwing other chicks at you for the fun times for everyone involved.

If you’re talking close friends who are ride or die and would put someone in the ground for you. Well usually you can count those on one hand that’s missing three fingers.

Post: #19

No, and it's a large factor in you being a virgin at 28. I used to believe in the same shit. Was greatly inexperienced and was always friends with girls sometimes intentionally and later very much against what I wanted.


Male - Female friendships work as 'acquaintances' or they are fleeting. Putting the 'friendship' thing aside for rather obvious reasons (it's pointless). I think your main problem is not understanding the bigger picture when it comes to relationships. There's a 'burden of performance' for which men are judged and evaluated by society and women. You don't just 'get' companionship by being around women and being nice to them. You have to have better value and status to earn womens 'love' and that love is conditional to you maintaining those qualities in her eyes. On some level everyone knows this; it's why 'nice guys' get ostracised (they provide no value and want love for it) and why male-female friendships are unnatural - because to be friends often is as a result of being equal to one another. Being equal to your guy friends is great, you share the same struggles and you can help each other out etc. Being equal to a woman leads to them resenting you.

Post: #20

(08-28-2018 05:35 PM)Black Caesar Wrote:  Who says friendship has to be platonic?

It’s chill to have girl friends and home girls who you kick it with.

It’s called being a well adjusted human.

Realize that is a bit lacking here sometimes but y’all should try it some time, it’s pretty dope.

I mean occasionally you end up a few lines or Tequilla shots in and hook up on a crazy night but then you laugh it off the next morning and keep it pushing. Eventually they start throwing other chicks at you for the fun times for everyone involved.

Social Circle =/= Platonic friendship

If you're hooking up with a girl occasionally that rolls with your crew, that is the complete opposite of platonic.

Now this doesn't go to say that I've don't have a few girls like that, but we don't hit each other up to bang all the time. Like you said, it's usually a few too many drinks and being in the right place with them.

The girls I roll with are usually a 2 or 3 degree separation from my friends, so we know about eachother, see eachother, but they don't know much besides me dating/banging girls I bring around or numbers I get.

I speak from a very heavy social circle experience because of a cool job I had and being known as the go to party house.


You speak about well adjusted and having platonic friends.

Our OP is a late blooming 28 year old virgin (i don't say this as an insult).

So he needs to adjust to women first before even thinking about what you describe.

He also needs to understand his Disney view of love and relationships with women is a mirage, not a reality.

The only guys I know that roll with women are guys who have solid game and have slept with the girl on occasion.

Quote:I mean occasionally you end up a few lines or Tequilla shots in and hook up on a crazy night but then you laugh it off the next morning and keep it pushing. Eventually they start throwing other chicks at you for the fun times for everyone involved.

Sure yeah that's great....until someone catches feelings. Usually it's the girl and she'll sabotage your game. It's ultra rare to find a wingwoman who'll rep you to other girls. I have literally one girl I can count on if we go out to be a good wing. If you have one, you better hold onto her!

Post: #21

Couldn't say better myself. This should be mandatory in all similar thread.





(Except the part of when he talks about other guys banging his bitch...)

To the OP, sorry, but you are also a Time Ho. There is no friendship between a man and a woman, when a man wants to bang her and finds her attractive. He just just became her bitch.

Post: #22

Quote:Sure yeah that's great....until someone catches feelings. Usually it's the girl and she'll sabotage your game.

Yeah that is weirdly common. I feel like massive case of value disparity occurs when you sleep with a girl from a social circle in some debauched circumstances. Like as the guy the girl you banged from doing some lines together is never going to be your wifey material - whereas to her the guy she banged doing coke has all of the alpha player vibes you could imagine.

Post: #23

Kaotic said it better than I could have.

Platonic is a made up word designed to confuse men who don't understand game.

Solution: Understand game.

Post: #24

I got some gorgeous female friends that I use as wings. I want bang them because of hsv2. Nice educated and come from money and are great for there VIP connects but not worth any penetration.

Post: #25

(08-28-2018 05:49 PM)Rocha Wrote:  Couldn't say better myself. This should be mandatory in all similar thread.

R.I.P.